Excavator Ripper
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chickenminer
05:21:28 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Excavator Ripper
Wondering if any of you guys have experience using a ripper on an excavator? I am not wanting to rip frozen gravel, just frozen muck.

Looking for one to fit my Hitachi EX300LC-3. Something like this SEC ripper.

SEC ripper

Anyone familiar with SEC brand?

dickb
16:23:10 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Not familiar with the conditions your going to try to dig.
But, after 30 years experience in construction here in IA, I can tell you the bigger the better the out come.
The depth of the frozen ground has a lot to do with the operators ability to penetrate the ground and remove the frozen muck. You need to be able to get under the frost and lift the ground with the machine causing the ground to fracture. Once you get the hole started it's much easier to advance the trench. Even a ripper tooth on a cat has it's work cut out for it self. Working frozen ground is very hard on both the ripper and the machine, so expect high maintenance.
Hope this helps.
Dickb

geowizard
16:38:02 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

Last year, I was given an all day tour of the Doosan proving grounds at a mine south of Tucson. I was able to test drive every loader, excavator and haul truck (all new units) on the lot.

My question was... What can I get to rip frozen ground with? :confused:

They had earlier been pitching the easy, fast, simple replacement of attachments on the excavators and we walked over to the attachments. Their answer was to use a hammer attachment.

Lemmee tell ya... They had some big hammers!

It seems intuitively obvious that if a hydraulic chipping hammer can break concrete, it WILL cut, rip, break up and make short order of frozen ground. :smile:

- Geowizard



chickenminer
17:39:55 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
dickb...
Thanks for the input. Unfortunately working frozen ground is just a fact of life here in Interior Alaska. With permafrost there is not just a thin layer of frozen to remove. What I am looking at is 15 feet of solid, frozen muck on top of gravel that I need to get rid of.
I've got a Hitachi 200 and a 300, but like you said I think bigger would be better for this application.

Chuck.....
I know hydraulic hammers are very hard on machines. I'd really like to try the ripper instead.

sabretooth
17:57:23 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick rippers are hard on the cylinder seals and hyd hammers do not work that well on frozen muck. Have a look at this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3CvOvA0L9U&list=UUaI1ds8kDMS3HhvoLMD8H6A&index=35 Look up Xcentric rippers

Jim_Alaska
18:33:39 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hammers on an excavator are very hard on the framing under the turret.

I used one last year that had had a hammer on it and you could see the welds on the framing where the constant hammering has cracked it.

I am not sure what the answer would be to the frozen ground problem, but it could very well be something other than hammer or ripper, like blasting, or steam, or water perhaps. Of the three, blasting might be cheaper and faster.

I am familiar with the permafrost conditions in Alaska. Based on my limited experience in actually working the permafrost in Interior Alaska, I tend to think that working the frozen muck would be harder on any equipment than simply working in frozen gravels, simply because it is compacted more with less fracture opportunities.

Not much help I know, but just my thoughts on the problem.

charlene91
18:54:25 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
HI YOU ALL AS MOST OF YOU KNOW I MINE IN ALASKA AND HAVE DEAL WITH PERAFROST AND HAVE FOUND THAT WATER UNDER PRESSURE WITH DO A LOT AND IT WILL ALSO WASH AWAY THE SILT ALL YOU NEED IS A SELLTING POND AND A PUMP POND IF THAT DOES NOT WORK THERE IS ALWAYS GUN POWER OR SOME PLASTIC

chickenminer
19:28:06 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Quote: sabretooth at 17:57:23 Fri Mar 8 2013

Dick rippers are hard on the cylinder seals and hyd hammers do not work that well on frozen muck. Have a look at this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3CvOvA0L9U&list=UUaI1ds8kDMS3HhvoLMD8H6A&index=35 Look up Xcentric rippers


sabretooth ....
Thanks for that! Very interesting setup, I will have to get more info from that outfit.

chickenminer
19:45:04 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Jim ...
Blasting is out. The paperwork involved in explosives anymore does not appeal to me!

I agree. Using hydraulic giant(s) would be my prefered method. Unfortunately I am in a very narrow valley with no room for the settling ponds that would be required.

dickb
20:55:49 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
All interesting answers, maybe the old way is still the only way steam pumped down into the ground. I just don't see that being economical to do. I was aware of what you faced with permafrost. Even here in IA, when it gets below 0 for a stretch, most guys wait it out for a warm spell so the frost thins down to a managable thickness. Usually 1' to about 1 1/2' is the most we have to deal with. That saves wear on the equipment.
Dickb

geowizard
23:04:06 Fri
Mar 8 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

Rippers are "he double L" on torque converters. :confused:

Mining in general is hard on equipment!. I mine on rubber!. So, everyone has an opinion about mining on rubber.

There are lots of hammers in use in the world on concrete. Lots of hardrock is hammered in quarries. It's part of the cost of mining.

It takes the same amount of energy to rip as it does to hammer. The nice thing about a hammer is that you can chisel into a slope that is not accessible with a ripper.

Incidently, at Ophir, we ripped two cuts and thawed. The reason I know about torque converters is watching a downed D8N sit idle for two weeks as the converter was pulled, flown out, rebuilt and flown back in.

- Geowizard

dredger
00:02:14 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Dick.
Perhaps a diamond rock / ice grinder,??, cheap enough if u can build it yourself, ??.



http://www.rocksaws.com/

300LC-3 with a ripper is in my opinion is a weapon, I would try that first, most probably your best choice,??.
:smile:

geowizard
00:39:04 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

All I can see is a tracked, cutter-head suction dredge coming my way! :smile:

- Geowizard

baub
16:05:49 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Ok, here's some off the wall ideas.

1 Use a chain saw, at an angle, to cut grooves in the frozen muck in a circular pattern similar to cutting a core from an apple. Experiment with the angle of cut. Experiment with reversing the chain for longer chain life. Start with about a 4-5 ft circle.
Drive wedges in this cut as deep as possible. Use as many wedges as needed to get an even distribution of pressure while periodically tapping them further in. After a while this saucer shaped hunk of stuff may pop out.
Next step. Repeat above and get the resulting onion ring shaped piece out.
Keep doing this until you get the diameter of the hole you want plus enough to compensate for the angle you need to use.
Next layer is similar. Cut and pop the piece(s) out.
When you get to your desired depth, you can then drift which ever way you want.
You might make access easier by cutting steps or a ramp. The tiered pattern established by the cut and popping may be enough. A ladder, or at least a knotted rope would be prudent. Sledges, battery powered heaters, radios, a small solar recharger could come in handy. Hmm, do they have battery powered sledges?
Consider a heater down there. Lights too. Perhaps cover the entire thing to prevent freeze ups and keep it comfy and homey. Sat tv is just an antenna away. If you do decide to take a petro powered device down there, remember that the carbon monoxide will build up and most likely kill you. Put gensets some distance away and run hd extension cords if 110/220v electric is needed. Consider 12/18/24v devises and the needed recharging methods.
Food/water/tp/shovels/ bedding/a warm girlfriend. All nice to have around.
2 Talk to ice fishermen and get some input from them regarding ice cutting. Many years ago many people were kept employed cutting ice for commercial enterprises, rail cars, ice chests etc. Somewhere the knowledge still exists. The Russians have done this for a long time. Eskimos too.
3 Consider these new, non explosive options. Some use compressed air, suddenly released. Some use shotgun style explosives in drilled holes. You could use a pattern mentioned in number 1
4 I would not rule out a hydraulic hammer, used gently, with delicasy and finesse, to do this. Use an angled, circular pattern that allows the ice, muck etc to pop up. Everything I've heard about them supports what the prior posts have said. Lotsa maintenance.
5 Plan, experiment, rethink and improve.
6 I've never done this before. It would be wise to plan in some safety thoughts. Tell someone what your doing, where you'll be and when you will be back or when you'll check in with them. Dead men can't spend gold.

Good luck!!



shaftsinkerawc
16:25:46 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
You'll find that whatever you use, ripper or hammer that you have 2 beasts to deal with. My experience with a handheld jackhammer is that the muck will chip ralatively easy as long as you keep a hole open for it to pop into in chuncks. When you get to the gravel it will be another story. Hammer away with no progress. Drilling and blasting would be the fastest. Cold water thawing would be my choice if you have material to work this season already. During Bucketline dredging days, once the permafrost was thawed it only froze on the surface and thawed each year. Probably some variables there.

geowizard
17:02:12 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
The old-timers used steam. :welcome:

Have you ever wondered what it would cost to use steam points and thaw a piece of ground? :confused:

Well, here you go...

Let's use a 100 ft x 100 ft square area that we wish to strip. The muck is 6 ft deep.

The total cubic yards to be stripped = about 2000 cubic yards.

It takes 144 BTU to thaw one pound of ice. We can use that for a reference.

If 2000 cu yards = approx. 2000 tons = 4,000,000 pounds of muck

At 144 BTU per pound = 576 million BTU's.

One gallon of gasoline (equivalent) = 114,000 BTU

It would take 5053 US gallons of fuel. Assuming a cost of $4.00 (cheap) = approx. $20,000 cost.

PAY:

The pay might be based on 0.01 ounce per cubic yard. We will process 1000 cubic yards and at $1500 for the gold, receive payment in the amount of $15,000. :smile:

Added content:

Of course getting through the muck is half the fun!

You may have six feet of frozen gravel. It's about the same cost.

Chainsaw? Well, I just checked on ebay and a new Husqvarna 455, 18" is $217.95 plus shipping. I would imagine replacing the complete chainsaw with every cubic yard of muck. $217 x 2000 yds = big bucks. Not to mention the labor intensity i.e. a couple cu yds per day = 1000 days = 10 seasons.


- Geowizard



JOE_S_INDY
17:28:03 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Years ago I worked construction in Anchorage and after freeze up started it was touch and go in trying to dig in freezing ground.

We used jack hammers to try to breach the frozen surface so that the equipment could, somehow break the frozen surface material. It was a 50 - 50 chance that we could do just that simple first cut.

Remember that frozen ground is not anything like just frozen water (ice).:devil:

geowizard
17:59:02 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

I would comment also after ripping the two cuts at Ophir, about 5 acres total, the ripped frozen ground was like broken glass. The ripped pieces had sharp edges just like blasted granite or obsidian with edges like a knife.

The most remarkable observation I made was the dust. The ripping created ice dust. You have to see it to believe it.:confused:

- Geowizard

baub
18:33:09 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Take two. Drilling.

Take the best drill for the purpose, say a backhoe with a pto mounted 4 inch drill and go down as far as possible with it. Quickly add an extention. Go an additional 6 feet or so. Repeat, quickly untill you find unfrozen material. Suck out the hole.
Repeat this in a pattern that would enable you to swiss cheese an area large enough to chunk out portions and remove them.
Create a work space.
Secure your gains with a cover over it, and perhaps some straw, wood or insulating material at the base of the hole.
Remember, if you're drifting, you may not need to remove much overhead material, just enough for access to the paydirt. Once inside the loose material zone, use the backhoe and a pulley setup to hoist samples out.
Asuming that you have good enough ore, then a ramp for ease of extraction would be justified. Simply tow the loaded carts,sleds, whatever out and stack for processing.



JOE_S_INDY
21:37:48 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Bob,

Dick is trying to breach 15 feet of permafrost. Not a simple top layer of frozen surface material.

Dick, Blasting by a commercial outfit could well be the answer. Let the "Pros from Dover" (MASH reference, eh!) handle the paperwork for you so you can mine (you know - what you do best!).

Joe

geowizard
22:18:03 Sat
Mar 9 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper


I uploaded a youtube video of the D8 ripping permafrost at Ophir. This more directed toward the uninitiated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePPhJSSZ_ks

There are a few other videos of the Brooks DC-4.

I plan on more uploads in the future.

- Geowizard

baub
01:44:36 Sun
Mar 10 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Take 3 There's a device called the lodrill. It's a heavy duty auger that will go thru solid rock. Solid rock. It can literally drill 100 plus feet deep, according to 2nd hand info. I've not seen it in action.
There are companies that use this corkscrew for concrete drilling and other difficult drilling. For anyone that wants more info, pls PM me and I will look up my source of info and get it to you.
Another miner in a claim near mine was going to use this for drilling into some granite that supposedly contained marketable amounts of metals. He was cancelled by the Forest Service because of a fire some 29 miles away. Long story.

Bob

dredger
05:29:07 Sun
Mar 10 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Dick,
Nice thread,: smile:
I was thinking the new guys may not be aware of a relevant factor concerning fitting a ripper to a 30 ton or any excavator,
That is the length of the boom and dipper arms, and the length or depth of the ripper, meaning if the machine is fitted a short stick ( dipper ) and a short boom, and short length ripper, the ripper will be at its maximum efficiency,
So if the or any machine is fitted with all long versions, it is not as efficient to rip , and you waste allot of time, so my suggestion if you are going mining with an excavator, do your home work,
Also new guys please note, LC refers to under carriage, or long or short track lenght, also track pads, or grouser plates also come in wide or not so wide, width. Final drive motors should be a good brand; some are not so strong,
Dick, I wonder if you can tell us about your machines, I think you share my feeling that there is nothing better than having a good size excavator, except having 2 excavators,
:smile:
And if you decide to rip, could you tell us the rest of your work plan, and how many other machines you are planning to use, ?? please.
And I am also wondering how much operating you plan on doing yourself, ??.
Phil.
:smile:

baub
20:58:56 Sun
Mar 10 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Take 4

How much room do you have to operate a excavator/ripper/cat? Let's compare the area needed to rip up enough ground to get access via excavator. You need stacking room for say a 50 by 20 foot amount of material. You need turn around room for the machine and any support equipment. If you don't cover the hole, it may be necessary to re/rip every day. This means keeping heat on the engine block of the Cat or leaving it idle constantly. You have a cost/figure thats pretty high. My guess is that most Ak gravel is thin, maybe $25/ton.
You have to continously remove the top 15" to surface mine this stuff. You could have a lot of money in a ditch in the ground. My guess the cost would seriously dent the $25/ton payout. If you break and you stick the Cat, it gets even more expensive. Exponentialy more so. The overburden for a vertical hole and ramp would be in the tens of yards vs hundreds of yds via cat/exc.
Yes, it's 15 feet of overburden. Once a relatively small access point is worked thru the permafrost and a ramp fabricated, you would have less mess, less reclamation etc to deal with than the Cat/exc. This 15' foot thick roof offers protection from the elements. Make a ramp big enough and with a high enough ceiling, you could work entirely inside the drifted area. There have been many mines operated in this manner by less equipment rich miners.
I don't have a cat or exc, just a few backhoes so my idea is minimize the breakables. Chain saws and chains are cheaper than cats and lighter too. So I would try the easiest, cheapest method first.
If you're just dragging and stacking for later processing in the spring you would need to ventilate the cavern with a fan to reduce co2 etc.
Folks, you'll have to excuse my typing errors. 2 days ago I had my eye teeth pulled and I can't type worth a darn.
It's hard to see the keys without them.

b

dickb
21:03:19 Sun
Mar 10 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I think that a large dozer is the better choice to do ripping, than a 30 ton track hoe. Agree with the short dipper and boom on the ripper hoe. Not sure if many realize the work involved with changing a bucket to a ripper tooth on a 30 ton hoe.
I used to do a lot of hole augering through frost with a hydraulic auger with down pressure. If I was working frozen loam, I could make reasonable progress. If there was much sand in the soil, I would wear out teeth quickly and progress was very slow. kinda like trying to drill a hole through a grinding wheel. I would be really scared to try and bid a job that tried to penetrate 15 feet of frozen ground. Just my thoughts.
dickb

dmarks
05:55:49 Mon
Mar 11 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
chickenminer is a very experenced miner in the frozen north he is looking for some one experenced with a ripper not a chain saw. Ever triedripping permafrost we do it is tougher than rock.

baub
16:38:25 Mon
Mar 11 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I have never ever worked with permafrost. I do however believe in brainstorming.
My interpretation of the request for ideas was that the conventional approach was too expensive to do and that the poster might be looking for outa da box ideas, of which I presented a number of possibilities, however naive.
The chainsaw idea, modified with an abrasive blade would work for a small area.
Nothing was mentioned about additional parameters other than the idea of close quarters. I based my ideas on this limitation. and a reluctance to blast and the expense of yellow iron.
I gave specific, detailed ideas to stimulate the thinking glands.
Most replies to them were either condesending or sarcastic.
I don't give a rats butt whether the ideas were bad or badly presented. What I dont like is ridicule.
Not one of you experts thanked me for my efforts. I see no reason to continue posting .


b


charlene91
17:42:08 Mon
Mar 11 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hi you all i have seen two things work with permforst one is clear off all possible stuff and let the sun thraw in and then push and wait ..and you could also clean the thewed stuff with water i have also seen a dozer with a ripper work the best way i have seen is to clear off all that you can in the fall and during break up with the melting snow and ice it will move a lot of the silt ..this what i have seen work

overtheedge
18:03:42 Mon
Mar 11 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick, I think the best idea is hiring out the ripping.

Blasting is a great way to break rock. Having blasted a few thousand yards of icecrete and ice during by combat engineer years in Alaska, I can attest to its capacity to just spring rather than shatter.

Then drilling the gazillion holes for the ANFO 15+ feet deep would be a major undertaking. You would also need to be ready to push the overburden off right after blasting, else it will refreeze in a jumbled mess.

Can't think of any other methods for removing the massive yardage.

Were I faced with the task and had the money, I would hire a big dozer to rip and stockpile the overburden.
eric

PS. For small areas of frozen ground, covering it with clear plastic substantially increases the thaw rate by preventing evaporative cooling.


geowizard
19:43:54 Mon
Mar 11 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

I think ote has the right idea. That's what I'm seeing today.

However...

Ophir produced on the average, 1000 ounces of gold every year over a 70 year period. Much of that was in frozen ground. They only had a dragline and a cable dozer.. and...

Two hydraulik Giants! Hydrauliking was apparently a viable method. When I revisit the videos I uploaded, it makes me think that I might try the same process. I'm running the washed ground into an off waterway cut and suction dredging the cut.

The Giants can run 24 hours a day.

- Geowizard



chickenminer
20:14:25 Mon
Mar 11 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Quote: baub at 16:38:25 Mon Mar 11 2013


What I dont like is ridicule.
Not one of you experts thanked me for my efforts. I see no reason to continue posting .
b


Bob,
No one likes ridicule and there is no reason for anyone to ridicule you.
Your ideas may indeed help someone else out, but they really are not practical for my application.
I realize you have no experience with permafrost and it would be hard to comprehend the conditions. This is possibly a fault of mine for not laying out more ground work.
Frankly though, I was not asking for a treatise on permafrost removeable methods. My question was straight forward and simple.
Sorry if you feel ridiculed and if I contributed to that in any way please accept my apology.

chickenminer
02:35:08 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Quote: sabretooth at 17:57:23 Fri Mar 8 2013

Dick rippers are hard on the cylinder seals and hyd hammers do not work that well on frozen muck. Have a look at this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3CvOvA0L9U&list=UUaI1ds8kDMS3HhvoLMD8H6A&index=35 Look up Xcentric rippers


Sabretooth....
Well I got ahold of the NA distributor for the Xcentric ripper.
Those boys are mighty proud of their product. The price quoted me was .... GASP ... $77,000 !

chickenminer
02:53:16 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Quote: dredger at 05:29:07 Sun Mar 10 2013


Dick, I wonder if you can tell us about your machines, I think you share my feeling that there is nothing better than having a good size excavator, except having 2 excavators,
:smile:
And if you decide to rip, could you tell us the rest of your work plan, and how many other machines you are planning to use, ?? please.
And I am also wondering how much operating you plan on doing yourself, ??.
Phil.
:smile:


Phil ...
Well it is a one-man show here. I do everything now that my daughters are grown and out of the nest. Every once in a while I can get my wife to run an excavator. :smile:

Yes indeed excavators are the supreme mining machines!
I also have a D-7 and a Cat loader. My Hitachi 200 class in an older UH083LC w/ PSM thumb and 1 yd bucket. The EX300LC-3 has a PSM thumb also, 1.5 yd bucket and it has the JRB quick coupler so changing from bucket to ripper is not a big deal.

I will try and post a photo of the area I am working and what I plan, so you can get a better idea.

dredger
12:05:20 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick,
Sorry to hear you lost some good free operators, HaHA,
Great idea about bonding with the wife on excavators, cheaper than getting married to her again, wish I had of thought of that,smile: you will have to get your wife a maid,
So happy to hear the 300 has a quick change, very happy for you mate, we are getting too old for doing it by hand, and my other passion, a cat loader, I have had lots of fun times, MMMM, am looking forward to your pics, please,
I thought the x-centric as seen on utubewas a bit slow and the machine weight still had to relied upon, still shaking the machine, I watched a few utubes on the x-centric in other situations, I thought the frozen ground ripping method on utube was carried out in the wrong direction, with the machine tracking over the ripped gravels, wrong method all together. and I thought he was using a ripper like a jack hammer, ( only allot slower), then using the ripper like a jack hammer pick, but if , and I mean if they used it a different method, I would bet good money, ( at least $5, ) the x-centric would be faster and stronger then ????, well let’s say there are three concepts of a ripper function, 1, the standard ripper and a effeiciet method, , 2, the standard ripper used with a rocking motion with in the ripper as the ripper is pulled and forced through the material, three degrees either way, this is controlled by the operator, 3, the x-centric, which rocks slightly, with allot of force and fast, and less control from the operator, $77,000, ouch, you could make u own or maybe better, , or better still go with the operator controlled rocking on the standard ripper, works for me,
I would also suggest you build your own ripper too, much cheaper than buying one, out right, just think of it as making a ply wood replica. Which you disassemble and use as the pattern, you have the ears on your bucket, pins, to copy on to the pattern, to send to metal laser cutter, then on to a welder, then back to you, or buy second hand, ??.
Also I suggest you should consider the ripper tooth, or the shape of the tooth, , I will find some examples.



Also you could hard face build any shape tooth you can imagine,
also there is the ripper shank, above the tooth, perhaps a sharp edge will help crack the ice, ??.Worth thinking about, ?.

As for your bulldozer I am guessing it will last longer then you if you just use it as a pusher not a ripper, older machines were really designed to push, which the operator is in good control, he cannot control the ripper much at all, let alone see it, I guess again in thinking it has been a great machine and old friend to you, so why bust its guts now, ??. And certainly a dozer would be useful for easy pushing on your next dig,
Also I am fascinated about how hard is your frozen muck, ??, I am assuming muck being basically very old layers of decaying vegetation, similar to New Zealand, except yours is frozen many times over, ??. Over similar placer deposits, ??.
As you know, I know little about Alaska frozen muck, but I think you have a fair chance of ripping it, fast enough to get good progress and production, but my line of thought is the method of operation, must focus on ripping with excavator, not ripping with a dozer, using a excavator, which in my opinion are apple and orange,
How deep is it though the overburden gravels to pay gravel after the muck, ?? please. In New Zealand I saw 100’ and 300’ deep to the pay gravels, Big operations,
Phill.
Hey Bob, mate,
I appreciate your brainstorming heaps, I hope you will rest up until ya teeth are ok , and get back to helping us as you have always done, , please, I am having some mad chainsaw ideas, 350hp, bit smaller then the cutter head in the pics above, there may be a particular application, ??.
However if you feel you have to leave, I thank you very much for the many good times and laughs, as well as heaps of stuff I learnt from you in over a thousand posts over ??. 5-6 years, hope we can stay in touch,
Phill.


steve62
13:13:18 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Geo,

I agree that Water is a very good option if the run-off can be contained. Here's a variation on Water I'm currently working on - A good friend of mine has a Demolition Business which specialises in the removal of Concrete Structures, Foundations etc. etc. They cut the Concrete with Water. I've been out to a Job to check it out and it may be a bit dangerous for the average Placer Mine. ( No offence to anybody ) Comes out at very high pressure as you can imagine and could be a very nasty accident if it went bad but really any sort of work with Heavy Equipment or Explosives carries inherent risks. But talk about power. The interesting thing is that the Water, under that much pressure, comes out HOT. I'm trying to devise a way of cutting the Muck out in Blocks and using the Excavator to get the Bucket under the edge and try to upend the carved-out Blocks.

Plan B - Ever seen Marble being cut out in big Blocks using a long length of Diamond Wire ? Obviously you would have to cut several Trenches through the area you are stripping but it may be a viable option if we can get good wear from the Diamond Wire. Irrespective of any of the above ideas, I don't think any of us will shift too much Overburden without a big Dozer. Even if our collective wisdom manages to find a way to Chunk / Block / Rip / Blast / Trench / Wash / Cut / Saw or shovel away the Muck, we will still need a Dozer to move it out of the way and then push it back for reclamation.

Keep the ideas coming though. Perhaps somebody will see a way to adapt and improve on an idea which one of us puts forward. The next step then will be to test it in the field. Good luck. Steve.

popandsonminers
15:36:59 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick, An interesting thread you started! If you're not in a hurry, you could explore thawing the permafrost with cold water. Maybe you already know, but it was used extensively in front of the bucket line dredges. Google ""cold water thawing" permafrost". There may still be some old-timers around that can coach you. Could it work to use a little track drill, a little water pump, and enough time to just "soften" the permafrost enough to use your excavator bucket?

Bob, Yes, there are some socially awkward folks on all forums! I think if you don't experience their ridicule, you're not creative enough--- Hope you can overcome it, as I join the others in saying I've really enjoyed your contributions over the years.



Jim_Alaska
16:00:35 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Baub,

I just had to chime in here and say that I have personally appreciated your input over the years. I looked back through my logs and see that you have been with us since 2008 and have over a thousand posts to your credit. I value every one of them.

I would just like to mention something I learned very early on in my Internet history. And that is that many times when someone posts, or even writes an email, their attitude and motives are not always clear.

Sometimes what they write comes across to others as abusive, sarcastic, or condescending when they really didn't mean it that way at all.

When we are speaking face to face we see body language, we hear the exact tone of voice and we are able to make eye contact. All of these things work together to give the other person a very real sense of what is being said and why.

We lose this very important part of communication when typing something out, and hence there are many times a misunderstanding on the part of those reading what has been written.

I said all this to say that I don't think anyone here meant anything out of the way in their responses to you. I didn't see or read any response to this thread as anything but trying to be helpful and provide relevant information. A few even attempted to try to clarify Dick's situation and expand on his unique operation.

I hope you will stick with us, I know that I, as well as others on the forum, value your input, friendship, and thoughfullness.

chickenminer
19:05:08 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Steve...
Yes I am well aware of the cold water thawing method. I have used it in the past setting a series of points to perforate an area.
It was before I had an excavator. After perforating an area I used the corner bit on the Cat blade to break out chunks.

I may very well try that approach again, only using the excavator ripper this time which I am sure will be a lot more effective.

geowizard
21:10:28 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I'm the poster boy for getting beat up on forums. :welcome:

Hello!!!???

I learned early in my professional career - working in engineering, there's a world full of "engineers" that have to "analyze" your design. I have worked for engineering companies that included as part of the design approval process a critical design review!:smile:

You stand up in front of a group of lead engineers and do a power point presentation.

Then they pick your ideas apart - That's what makes the process BETTER!

The liberal view - well, we all start out better than average. Everyone gets a grade of A+ . That concept started in the school sysem in California - another social experiment.

1. Step up to the plate.

2. Present an Idea.

3. Be prepared to get challenged.

4. Defend the idea or agree and dismiss it.

Ridicule is what drove Jonathan Livingston Seagull to the next level of perfection!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Livingston_Seagull

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm2hYRQEOHM

- Geowizard

chickenminer
22:27:36 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Quote: geowizard at 21:10:28 Tue Mar 12 2013

I'm the poster boy for getting beat up on forums. :welcome:


'Cuz you deserve it! Come on Wiz .... get back in line. You're
straying off topic AGAIN.

BTW ... we all know JLS was a freak :smile:

geowizard
22:51:16 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

Ouch!!!%%&@ :smile:

:thankyou:

- Geowizard

chickenminer
23:13:03 Tue
Mar 12 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil..
I'm not so sure slow is a bad thing when it comes to use of a ripper. I liked the look of the Xcentric, but no way I would sink that kind of money into an attachment w/o a test drive on my turf.
So... back to a plain jane variety ripper.

Here is a photo of my workings last summer. I worked the creek bottom. This creek has all been heavily hand-mined. Some open cut, a lot of drifting. You will notice there is little room.
To the left (right limit) is the bench I need to strip.



Here is another view. Shows the bench. I plan to work it in about 10,000 sq ft sections, 50'x200'. The pay goes back abt 50' from the face. Depth to bedrock in the back will be around 22 ' Looks like 15' of muck, the rest a gravel combination. The muck is far from clean, full of vegetative matter and basalt rocks.
The bench has at least a 25 degree slope, making it very tricky to operate equipment on. Anyone that has run tracked equipment on a frozen slope knows about the 'pucker factor' involved!



So I am looking at ripping the muck to haul away. Much nicer to handle it while frozen.
This SEC ripper is fairly cheap. About $2,000. But I have heard bad reports on the SEC brand. Although for 2K it may be worth it to buy and immediately beefed it up before use.



A couple other options are the Geith and USA Attachment rippers. These run about $5,000 each.





There you have the basics.

dickb
06:05:15 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I like the design of #3 the best, but I don't think it's beefed up enough in two places. The pin and bushings on #2 look stronger and more bearing surface and the connection between the ripper and the base plate seems more substantial. If I were to get #3, I would add 1'' stock to each side of the ripper tooth at the leading edge to help with twist. Then beef up the connection at the base plate. Not a lot you can do with the bushings, but if you can order some extra inserts and spare teeth, I think it would be a good move.
Dickb

dredger
08:53:37 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Quick Dick, :devil:

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=ripper&_pgn=4&_skc=150&rt=nc

Just up the road from me, I wonder how much frieght, :confused:

dredger
09:17:39 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Comes with pins too.:smile::smile:

baub
12:34:58 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Thanks for the feedback guys. I overreacted to an imagined slight or two. Actually they were triggers that knocked the accumulated chips off my shoulder, and insignificant in their own right.
My apologies to all on the Forum for a public display of pique and bad temper.

baub


Jim_Alaska
16:23:59 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Great post Baub, and right in line with your giving, helpful character over the years.

overtheedge
17:39:06 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I agree with dickb for all the same reasons except one; the choice.

I would consider ripper #1 the top choice for several reasons.
1. It appears to be mid-length among the 3 choices. You will only get so much penetration and still be able to rip. Ergo, no more length than necessary because you will bump the traverse during ripping.
2. Price is less than 1/2 the others. You could buy 2 and put the rest towards shipping. A spare _______ (fill in the blank) is always handy.
3. The shank appears a bit wider. See #1 for why.

That being said, I would sure consider a few pounds of welded on wear surface for the shank.

But you are making the decision. Typically the person with the best information wins. I can see your problem deciding with this being March and time running out to order.
eric


dickb
18:13:43 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hi OTE:
I agree with the points you present. The reason I chose #3 is when I saw the bench that Dick intends to rip. I feel that he will be using the ripper to cast the ripped muck to the sides with the ripper. Obviously, it would be a bad practice to try and swing as the ripping stroke was being done. It may also be that we are looking at a tool that was designed for a different machine and the one designed to fit the hoe that Dick has, may be different than the pictured one. As to the point that a shorter shank would be better, I definitely agree to better utilize the power of the machine at the end of the tooth while ripping.
I have always found that brainstorming turned out to be a good idea. The more input, the better the choice will be. Knowledge is power,
Dickb

chickenminer
18:42:39 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil,
Some nice designs show up on the ebay.au site! I gotta believe freight would be a killer. Food for thought though.

chickenminer
18:59:56 Wed
Mar 13 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Eric/ Dickb...
I have to agree with both of you. I'd like to incorporate the best of each.
The SEC brand gets a bad rap for the use of light materials.
But the price is hard to beat. I can see buying one and just beefing it up before use. It is hard to imagine the incredible power of a 300 size hoe until you are in the operators seat. So it MUST be built stout.

Dickb... you are correct, ripping has to be a straight motion.
I will be approaching this from one end of the bench. The ripper won't be used along the face to pull down material. Ripped material will be moved out with a loader.

dickb
05:11:17 Thu
Mar 14 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
After seeing the picture of the bench, I suspected you would start the cut on the up stream end at the 50" line. Cutting a flat road along the back edge, casting toward the creek. Then widening the flat cut as you ripped and hauled.
My thought would be to build a berm about 65' back to divert water from the face of the cut down to the creek. Mainly to keep the face of the cut vertical and from falling in on you. You are looking at 30 to 45' of face by the time you get to bedrock..
That being said, how will you work the next block down stream? Looks to me as if the grade rises as you move down stream.
Just curious.
Dickb

dredger
08:34:32 Thu
Mar 14 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick,

Great pics, thanks for sharing the action,

You say,
I'm not so sure slow is a bad thing when it comes to use of a ripper.
I totally agree, true words of wisdom, and am happy to hear you plan to use the loader to clear the ripped materials, meaning you won’t waste time changing back to the bucket to clear ripped materials,
(OH, by the way, I just read somewhere that those types of design (powered ripper) has a tendency to break the shank at the tooth, makes sense too, )
Your excavator, appears to be a short stick or short dipper, and a short boom, which results in the optimum break out forces for digging hard packed rock with a rock bucket or straight ripping, :smile: meaning that is a great advantage to you, on the other hand the machine has the minimum digging depth, which with a little fore thought is not a problem any way,
Your choice of ripper length is optional, 36" long gives more break out force then a longer 48", but the loss would be hard to define in the field,
Dick please note, very important tip here, the three pics of rippers above, the first 2 pics show half the length shank, and the 3rd pic shows wide shank, which is welded full length of the head plate, I highly recommend the wide shank, there are many situations where wide shank is very handy when using a ripper, as a sort of curled up, grader / pusher blade to sweep cu yds of soft loose materials to one side,

if you think about, using the slew motor and gearing to side sweep light materials aside is not a prob , we use the bucket to side sweep materials and levelling, Most of us can side sweep a large rock out of the way, most operators can and do, and from a plant mechanics point of view, is very unlikely to break a slew ring gear of slew motor drive gear, drive motor, control valve bank relief spring, gear or piston pump, hardly any extra wear if you keep the line of thought, “ gently but firmly “,
So a scenario could be and I refer to your last pic with directions, and I would like to borrow your machine and your new ripper, i move the machine back above where you indicate you will start work , ( to the far right of pic and in the gully),

I would drop the ripper out of the bucket, and slip the bucket off somewhere safe and hitch the ripper, and move and get up close the banks, set the throttle to just over half, with the ripper I would rip most of the surface veg layer a foot either side of the excavator track width, I would expect being a frozen lumpy surface, it might be a little bumpy, then I would fold up the riper and side sweep the loose materials / veg aside, from left to right, clearing a patch and the beginning of the road, once top layer is swiped aside I would expect a greasy frozen mess surface, which I would scrap deep groves say 4" deep, disturbing the slimy surface, hard as a rock, then I would again fold the ripper under, and side slid larger rocks or broken chucks of ice and muck, to each side, and finally spread the remaining crushed ice and muck smoothly and level, once the first section is ready, maybe 15' in length up the bank, I would reach up higher with the ripper, sink it in, and pull, lift and walk the machine onto the prepared pad, or first section of the road, and then keep clearing sections in the same method , I would also back track over previous completed and levelled sections to pack the crushed ice and muck and leave deep grouser imprints in the road, these should freeze up again, and provide good traction at a later date, or to bring the machine back down, about 25 feet of road length up the hill, I would start ripping deeper on the right side and turn the road to the left and up downstream, ripping enough materials to sweep across, to level the road, and once parallel and heading back up the river, ( left of pic), I would add a few degrees incline back into the hill on the road surface, By this time I think you would be surprised at how quick the road was made, how when frozen back again will provide excellent traction for a long frozen time, perhaps a firm base to rip from, all done pretty quick, just takes practice, and because there was no time wasted changing back to the bucket, then back to the ripper,
LC and wide grouses, or track plates, excellent for alluvial gravels, and mud, sands, my observation here is the wide tracks float higher over the gravels and do not get or let that much fine grit back on to and in the track chain pins, and grind them up, please note dozer tracks are thinner, and tend to dig deep in the soft gravels, encouraging gravels to fall on to the inside of the track, and continue to ride there ??.
Also in considering your slippery situation I am relieved to see you have the full width thumb, hyd too, ouch, I have worked in deep soft mud, so we used nice solid thick logs, to give a work platform, once I used a machine that was fitted with a thumb, and it was just so easy to move the logs around as you worked, got allot more work done not having to fiddle around, so it occurs to me that in freezing slippy conditions a good thick log or logs may help, ??.
Dick for the benefit of the new guys, I would like to post some bits and suggestions on excavators, and a pic of a ripped excavation, and my some suggestions, here is the pic,

Phill.
Testing.


dredger
09:04:39 Thu
Mar 14 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Dick,

I just got back a reply from the e-bay ripper,


Hi Phil,
Photos on there are for 20 tonne and 30 tonne
We have from 3 tonne up to 45 tonne
Cheers,
Matt
Regards,
BETTA BILT BUCKETS

1300 699 888
F (02) 8088 7888
M 0423 669 888
E sales@bettabiltbuckets.com.au

No mention in any difference of price, ??.

chickenminer
05:11:29 Fri
Mar 15 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dickb...
The photos are more a representation. Actually I will be at the lower end of this bench and move upstream.
The face of this cut shouldn't be more than 20-25'.
The next cut going upstream will be worked basically the same.
Only I will have more elbow room once the lower cut is stripped and sluiced.

chickenminer
05:30:50 Fri
Mar 15 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil...
The excavator in the photos is the 200. Yes, it has a short stick but I don't plan to use it for ripping.
Here is the 300.


I hear you on the ripper shank size. That is what worries me on the SEC model and would have to be beefed up considerable.
The USA attachment ripper is the most stout looking of all.
The company is horrible at answering inquiries though! Two emails sent asking about price and shipping quote ... still no answer!

The thing about ripping muck is it starts to thaw as soon as you rip it. So to avoid having a big slop pile I pretty much have to rip a little, then cast it to the side with the tooth as you suggested and grab it with the loader.

dredger
10:37:05 Fri
Mar 15 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Oh gee Dick, when I said " I would borrow your excavator " ! I meant and said the one with the quick hitch, and the 200 has not got a quick hitch, don't you remember,smile :haha.

Mate, I am still smiling cause when you get this ripper on your excavator, things will change big time,, your perception of our (ha) your hyd giant will change into an amazing hyd giant "monster",
Believe me when I say this is going to be a moving experience for you, haha, it was for me after I got the hang of a ripper,
More explanation on that coming with the above pic, and got 2 sketches done too. asap.
Your 300-3 is in my opinion one of a few makes, most suitable machine for alluvial or placer mining there is, the vintage is exactly right, all the good running gear without the complicated computer accessories seen on later models, strong, reliable, a hyd giant with a bucket, and an amazing hyd giant monster with a ripper,
You say, The thing about ripping muck is it starts to thaw as soon as you rip it. So to avoid having a big slop pile I pretty much have to rip a little, then cast it to the side with the tooth as you suggested and grab it with the loader.
I like that and hear you well, and I am thinking the big slop pile might “refreeze” pretty quick, ??. ( if you work into the winter, so timing might need to be considered to when you are doing both excavator and loader operation at the same time,, , ),

This is getting good, phil.


charlene91
17:17:22 Fri
Mar 15 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
hi you all chicken i have worked ground like your and from my experince we cleaned off all possible overburden you would be surpised how well that moss and roots keep the muck forzen i have seen 10to 12 inchs of moss and such keep the muck forzen and cleared off it and 2 days later able to wash or push it away

chickenminer
18:25:42 Fri
Mar 15 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Charlene...
Placer mining 101 in Interior Alaska. If you don't strip the top vegetation off, it ain't ever going to thaw.
Once you do, on a nice summer day you'll get maybe 3" thaw. Depending on what your muck is composed of.

chickenminer
20:37:07 Fri
Mar 15 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil ...
Yeah the 300 LC-3 is a sweet machine. It still has more electronics than I like. Nothing like the ZX models though.

I wasn't use to such a "new" machine. First time I crawled into the cab after the guys unloaded, I must have spent 15 minutes looking for the throttle lever !! Finally dawned on me ( I am a bit slow) throttle settings were buttons ! Took me a while to get over the "oh man, not buttons" :smile:
Got to admit though, that auto-decel is kinda nice.

Well I don't plan to do any ripping during the winter. Just too dang cold here to run machinery. So my ripping will be Spring through late Fall. Refreezing of ripped material will not be a problem.

dredger
02:27:21 Sat
Mar 16 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick,

Just too dang cold here to run machinery,

Ouch, it is painful to me to think it is " Just too dang cold here to run machinery," :gonetoofar: I understand you are giving me the facts, but they are facts that I have no experience with, ???. couple with my fear of snow and cold,

I was thinking or hoping the muck would refreeze so once it is removed, it would refreeze enough to be stacked on top off, and driven over, ?? ,

I am also thinking allot of time will be lost transporting the muck, having to go too far, u know,??.

phil.

chickenminer
19:31:30 Sat
Mar 16 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil...
I hear you on transporting the ripped muck. Additional cost anytime you have to handle material more than once. Not much choice here, creek is too narrow to stack overburden to the sides.

Here is a photo of the bench this winter. The red circle is where I am sinking a prospect hole. This is how I know the depth of muck in the back and the width of the pay.
Photos ought to cool you off :smile:









geowizard
22:00:14 Sat
Mar 16 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick,

You need to pull those photos before "driftminer" sees 'em!

He'd tell ya how wide the pay is AND how long.

- Geowizard

dredger
11:01:13 Sun
Mar 17 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick, it's ok, please don't feel bad. not your fault,
I am back from the operating theatre, the by-pass to by-pass the by-passes went well,
:gonetoofar: please don't do that mate, I now have evidence that you can snap freeze Aussie sunbaked nuts in the bag, with a picture like that, :smile: in future could you please give me notice so I can wear dark sunnies,
You know, they say, we can't remember anything as kids before 7 years old, but I remember exactly when I was 3 years 3months 4 days old, the family went to the snow, where I promised myself " never again ", and I never did, :smile:
However your excellent pic was enough for me to suggest this,
Concerning transporting muck and I refer to when I simulated making the road starting at the shallow gully, downstream of the machine,
And feel that it would be easy to cut a culvert road through the bench at frozen gravel level, ?? even bedrock and perhaps a prospecting trench, ??, then slop the culvert road up slightly to the other side and back of the bench, and dump and push the muck off the back side of the bench, and yes I think and confidently suggest based in what I see in your last picture, when you get your ripper working, and you are understanding that your 30 tonner is ripping like the 60 tonner you thought you needed, , more than enough power, In my situation I backed off the throttle, bit by bit, realizing that it takes allot less power to rip with 1 tooth, then it does 5 teeth, so I reduced and slowed the power down to where I had fine definition between the power required to rip the materials and the power being provided by the machine, so I slow the power down again, to where the ripper is struggling and begin rocking the Ripper.

this frees up or increases the ripper efficiency with “out “having to increase machine power in-put, so how slow much slower, ??? , ok, the other part of this transformation, from slow revving powerful ripper to efficiently fast removing the loose ripped materials, that are like sand on a beach, all very loose and transferred easy and fast, so that is efficiently quick ripping, and fast light removal of ripped loose soft materials, as well as wear and tear on the machine greatly reduced, now how fast is my machine running ,
Bit over half throttle, allot less then when I tried to dig with the bucket, allot less then what i use in the river, generally speaking, Defiantly enough power to reach out and fill the bucket to full, of loose materials, a precision slim the depth of the ripper, no real friction felt, and the bucket and arms are folded and loaded, so then the object is to slew to the right and lift the closed bucket maximum reach and height and place the bucket still closed on the edge of the wall, gently, because the left track lifts a few inches off the pad as the weight and momentum gets too much within inches of the top wall, maximum reach and height, then I unfold the bucket trying to push the top of the wall back behind the bucket, leaving enough room for the material in the bucket, high on the wall, please note the engine rpm sound during the lift and placement of the materials goes like this, as soon as the bucket is full and clear I give med slew to the right, full power to the 2 big boom rams and at the same time give full control lever to the dipper to extend, and up she goes, motor bracing and slowing itself for a quick high lift, about half way up, the momentum over balance the whole machine gently lifting the track slowly trying to balance back, the motor is labouring harder, and just at the last part of the lift, the rpm drops to a few hundred rpm above stalling, but quickly regains a nice purr as the bucket settles high into the wall, rpm is ready to unfold the bucket and moving the weight of the machine on the left track, lifting the right track also helps the bucket to push harder into the wall.
Suggesting to me the motor pump is running fairly slow,
Hopefully you will find the idea of a culvert short cut road and moving that much materials can be dug very quickly, resulting in only short distances to dump, I actually think or have the feeling that the ripper will work so well, you will be ripping faster than the loader can move, ??,
Also just after they de-fibula ted me this morning, Ha, I glanced at your prospecting hole and had a flash back to where I am digging the dam, and earlier higher up the hill where the blue granite is greatly exposed at the surface, the land owner and I were wondering how hard it was and decided to punch down a quick hole and see how deep it went, so away I went , rip then bucket, again and again, quickly punching down only because the ripper is too much for the rock, bucket wide by 4-5 buckets long, 12-15’ deep, did not take long, 15 mins, we left hole wondering what use it might be, and found it rained that night and filled to the brim, which the land owner found convenient to pump water from,
Gotta run, back asap,


dredger
11:29:36 Sun
Mar 17 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

OK , the sketch above shows roughly the angle the ripper is folded, when used to sweep big rocks and loose materials to the side with the flat side of the ripper, levelling roads after ripping, I think it would be handy for moving big chunks of still frozen muck, the v looking sketch shows the shape of a trench that can be dug with just a ripper, when laying pipes or elect supply underground,
Next is pic of the dam being ripped, with thoughts about hard ground? And ripper performance,
The black arrows at back show a very hard setting white powder level?? not really soil, I can only really scrap the depth of the teeth to get into and under it, it is pretty hard on the machine,
Yellow arrows at the back, show dry brown dry clay level, also very hard and is also hard on the machine,
Yellow arrow in front shows moist brown clay, temp small dam wall, inside the larger dam, yes I said dam inside a dam? This is softer then the dry clay, but still hard to dig mixed with bigger rocks, which is in my opinion is being too hard on the machine using a bucket, ,
Purple arrows show Granite blue, nature has cracked it for me, but not long ago, it is hard and packed, I want to move allot, and I do not want to damage my machine, so, get the ripper,
Next is my experience, pics sketches and thoughts on using my ripper,
So I reach out for the first rip, and remember this,

1, (top left corner) shows ripper clawing down a work face, 1 near the machine shows the machine lifting the tracks,
2, shows same, machine can claw down a vertical face but with a lot lifting and drop the machine,
3, the machine is still shaken around, mostly due to the dipper reaching out and touchy boom rams, but if the small job has too be done,
4, shows maximum reach and is bumpy as the ripper is drawn in, by the time I get ,
5, everything changes, the ripper is a plough, the whole machine becomes firm, steady and begins to pull into itself, which can be felt because the machine pulls itself into the pad on which it is sitting, at this point, that is what it feels like, which is about 1/3 travel back from full reach of the arm, as the ripper continues to rip the last 2/3 travel,
6, is when I start thinking this hyd giant is a monster, compared to when I use a bucket, the last 2/3 travel of the ripper are pure power, too much power so I start kicking on the throttle,


kaveman
14:13:05 Sun
Mar 17 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Learn something new every post! I can see that angled pad could be useful,....I'll put that in the 'bag 'o tricks'.

We've got a ripper that we meant to use on bedrock, but it's 1/4" too narrow for the stick so we haven't used it yet. It will fit the quick coupler, but attaching that to the stick is another job that's been put back on the shelf. What we did do last year was replace the 42" dirt bucket with a 24" pointy toothed rock bucket(220 sized exc)and found that the digging of both rocky dirt and bedrock has become MUCH easier. Even with the smaller bucket, punching test holes down 20' can be done in about half the time and the digger doesn't seem to be working half as hard doing it. Those teeth are ripping out bedrock that the spade teeth of the 42" bucket simply skimmed across.

So I'll ask,..........what sort of bucket have you got on that 300 now? Then I'll mention that I found something last year that I SO wanted to buy, but just didn't have a use for. Found a heavy 36" rock bucket locally for sale that was advertised as a 200 bucket, but when we went to pick it up it was obviously a 300 bucket.In fact, it was marked PC300 and it would be a perfect fit on your Hitachi. 36" heavy reinforced rock bucket with twist-lock tiger teeth and sidecutters AND 90mm pins,......in unused condition with surface rust from years of outside storage. Price was $650,.......cheap enough that I was instantly on the hunt for a 300 series excavator just so I could have a use for it.

Now, afaik it's still sitting here in MI and I'm not sure it makes sense to ship it all the way up to AK, but I think a bucket like that would work pretty fine on your permafrost and possibly be more useful than a ripper tooth. I've also seen a couple of fantastic deals on heavy, HEAVY V shaped buckets with frost teeth,...........and those have always been 300 series buckets as well,........so again I had to let them go.

Here's one on eBay now(in TX)like I'm talking about. Last year there was an identical bucket brand new for half the price that went for months without a buyer. I even considered bushing the pins down to the 80mm that I need for my Kobelco, but the rest of the dimensions were far enough off that I didn't want to risk it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/32-Heavy-duty-Rock-Bucket-for-a-Komatsu-PC300-Excavator-V-Bottom-Frost-/280869317448?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41651dab48





I see these ripper buckets around as well, but prices are all over the place and like this example, can be outrageous,...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Ripper-Bucket-for-Hitachi-EX450-Excavator-/220609569120?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335d5ae160




But I bet they'd do a job on your frozen muck.

oldstyle
16:56:57 Sun
Mar 17 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I would like to add my concern about a large ripper. I was prying a large boulder from the bottom of my pit with my 211 Warner Swasey, an antique but strong machine. When I pulled the boom up I had managed to bust the end off of the dipper. Just a warning about excessive forces beyound original engineering design.

dickb
18:33:38 Sun
Mar 17 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hi Oldstyle:
That might have been from metal fatigue and not just excess power. Over time the metal crystallizes internally and will fail without warning. When your working at the limits of the machine some crazy things can happen.

Hi Dredger:
Backhoe 101. A good description on how to best utilize the capabilities of the hydraulic system instead of just the machine weight. With the pad your less likely to slide the machine with the point. Icy conditions don't allow the pads to grab the soil and your able to slide the tracks much easier the harder the surface your sitting on. Your always able to use more of the machines power the closer you are to the center point.
This has been a great discussion and I hope a lot of the miners are able to get some good information from it.
Dickb

oldstyle
22:40:40 Sun
Mar 17 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
just found this on Ritchie Bros Chilliwack sale, near Vancouver BC. http://www.rbauction.com/jones-qc-ripper?invId=3644534&id=ci

oldstyle
22:51:29 Sun
Mar 17 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Could be fatigue, but it ripped along the welds. They seemed to have had good penetration, and nothing out of the ordinary for cracking before the failure. It is now reinforced with a piece of a Mack truck frame and lots of gussets. My concern is using excessive leaverage in a manner the the machine was not designed. Bruce

chickenminer
03:17:40 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil ...
Good posts! I'll keep the info in mind.
Last summer I was trying to rip some of the frozen face down
with the teeth on the bucket. Man .. I quickly learned that is not the way to rip !!

Keeping traction on the frozen ground is a problem. I do have ice cleats welded on the pads to help somewhat.

Jim_Alaska
03:26:21 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Great thread guys. What a wealth of information.

It makes me appreciate the decomposed rock I was ripping with just the regular toothed bucket last year at the hard rock mine. Went down about 20 feet and never had any problems doing it.

chickenminer
03:28:49 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
kaveman...
I don't really want a combo bucket/ripper. In my experience anytime something tries to have a dual purpose, it ends up doing neither very well.

For my purpose I would rather stick with the single-point ripper option. I did look at the LEA multiripper.


Interesting option, but still I think I would get more benefit from a single-point ripper.

I have a 1.5 yd CP heavy rock bucket on the 300 now. I'm looking for a 2 yd bucket if you happen to see you for sale.

overtheedge
04:57:17 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Wow Dick, that LEA is an awesome chunk of iron. I'm thinking a wider pass and each tooth preps for the next tooth. No time for the cracks in the frozen muck to heal. Granted, not as deep.
And you won't be chisel plowing, but more like digging. So probably slower per pass. However, it is a 3-tined rake. So I'm thinking about raking up the frozen clods.

I hope you make the best choice for you.
eric

dredger
11:48:21 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick, I think you are right going with the Single tyne, that last one gives me the feeling it would twist, and wear pins and bushes right up the dipper, abnormally, just a thought ,
I hear you. "I quickly learned that is not the way to rip !!"

Allot of good points posted, Kaveman posted by changing down from 42" to 24" was so much easier, can be done in about half the time and the digger doesn't seem to be working half as hard doing it. well I am here to tell you he is telling the truth, the other half of the truth is 24" down to 4" . Much easier, half time, half as hard, “again ", you will be amazed, ,
I am running out of time, sorry,
The pad idea could be as easy as transferring enough gravel 5cu yds, ?? from the river to build pads as you go, dragging the pad with you, couple of tree trunks too.
Get the big bucket, the big bucket works best when the ground has been ripped, and soft,
Dickb says it very very well. " A good description on how to best utilize the capabilities of the hydraulic system instead of just the machine weight."
"Your always able to use more of the machines power the closer you are to the center point.".
So my suggestion is do that, and suggest this method,

testing,


dredger
16:16:11 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
So, if you are able to position the 30tonner on a stabile level work platform, up on top of the bench,

You could focus on only using the last the last 2/3rds of the reach of your machine, this being the optimum ripping position, much easier, half the time. Half the throttle,

1, showing the depth and angle of the first rip, Depending on how hard the frozen muck is, 1, the first rip is the hardest, in any material, rock, ice, so I think your machine will rip the first deep grove easerly, perhaps in the centre of across the work face, 300lc-3 cold be easerly 40-50' across/slew, 15' + high, 2/3 reach should be around 20', next rip perhaps 24" parallel to the first rip, I would suggest this is where the big chunks will start flying, breaking off, with a crack, but I do think the machine will hardly feel any shock, as the big chunks fly, this is where you may think your are operating a 60 tonner, and because of the angle of the rip, hopefully most of the small and large chunks, should slid back down the slope/angle, maybe a bit of side pushing to help them slid back, then rip out the next level, and the next level, first rip in the centre each time, about half way down the materials that had already fallen down would be built up to the level being ripped, rip that level, then open the thumb about half way, and use the last 1/3 travel of the arm (10') to push the ripped materials back, if your loader is working, two operators, and quickly able to load and dump, I would think you would make good progress, if you are by yourself, you may be able to rip and push and move back enough materials, each 20' section that you move back, hopefully you could a rip say 60-100' before you have to change to the loader,??> Just guessing, based on the expected performance of your machine,
2, frozen muck is not as hard to rip then we think, but still frozen enough to stay in bigger larger chunks, and again easerly pushed back with the thumb,
Got to run, but 2 things more, 1 Dick I am a little concerned about you moving back and forth from the excavator sitting on the bench down to the loader, when working by yourself, could be dangerous, and if you decide to or find you can work from on top of the bench, we should brain storm some ideas to ensure your not hurt moving around,
2, thanks Jim, I hope you get to have a go on a ripper soon,
Thanks oldstyle, all good info, I found a utube on your machine, looked good and strong, I have never seen or heard of that make, and i like the riper link, very nice, lots or potential for a 20 tonner, even possible adjustable height,
Thanks dickb, nice post, well said, words of wisdom,
Thanks kaveman, good on the spot experience input, lets hope you get your hitch fixed next , I would love to hear your experience with a good ripper,

Ps Dick, again I think you could use a bigger bucket too, that will help if you have to move frozen defrost muck in bulk and quickly, , and there is another trick I have used to virtually slice hard sandstone, with just a excavator, pretty quick, I wanted to explain more about that too, info that might be worth knowing,
Also another line of thought that goes like this, operating an excavator should also focus on not over revving the motor, or over powering above what is only required to do the job, resulting in less or almost no shock and vibration in the machine, and there is a distinct feeling it is too quite, and smooth, ??.
oh, one more, if you are going to buy a bucket off ebay or just second hand, you need to be sure the capacity of the bucket is what you want, not bigger or smaller then you want, not bigger or smaller then it looks, to your eye, hope that helps, been there done that,
back asap,


kaveman
17:00:09 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
The asymetrical teeth on the three tyne would worry me. I'm sure it's hell for stout, but I don't like the way it torques the machine. I'm sure everybody has seen Goldrush and the slanty-toothed ripper bucket the Dakota Boys used on Porcupine. My first thought was "wow, I've never seen a bucket quite like that. Looks wicked, but unbalanced". Yeah, the old 270 was pretty well clapped out and those boys are anything but gentle with their machines, but I still suspect that bucket is the cause of their breakdown. Hard, HARD digging and the shock and pressure is always on the single outside tooth.

Nice thing about the 'V' shaped bucket is that all the stress is centered and you're putting all your force into a single spot when the digging is hard. It'll automatically dig deeper and take a larger cut if and when the material allows it. It's no good for making a 'pretty' hole, but it digs better than any other. Had a bucket like that on my old truck-mounted backhoe and have been wanting another for the Kobelco ever since.

chickenminer
20:42:25 Mon
Mar 18 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Yes,
The LEA multiripper is mighty wicked looking and definitely looks stout. Very good points on the offset design too. Indeed it would place more of a twisting stress on the pins/mount, especially in material as unforgiving as frozen muck.
I have never ripped hard pack, except with a bucket. Then it seemed more to loosen the surrounding material as you dig. In my digging hardpack, such as bedrock, I never had the same sharp, hard jarring feeling sitting in the hoe as when I was trying to rip frozen muck.

Ripping frozen muck seems totally different. This stuff doesn't loosen the surrounding, it just breaks a chunk out.
I don't know, not enough experience yet with ripping. I still have to believe for my purpose the best use would come from a single-point ripper.

I think my best approach to ripping this bench is from the bottom working up. That way I can always have a slight incline to pull into and the material is coming down grade. It'll be a learning experience!
Hopefully I can come up with some kind of a single-point ripper to try.

kaveman.. I've never seen any of the GoldRush shows, so don't know exactly what they were using but i assume it was
something like the buckets you showed?
I definitely see where having a centered stress point is important.

oldstyle... interesting ripper there on the RB auction. Thanks for posting! There was a guy here had an old Warner Swasey. Might have been the first hydraulic excavator on the creek for mining. Monster machine. Not sure what it had in it, 8V Detroit ? But boy howdy we sure knew when he was running!

kaveman
00:29:29 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I think the slanted ripper bucket they used is a defective design. The slop in their bucket linkage surely contributed to the failure, but I think even tight pins would be loosened up soon enough. Here's a few minutes showing the hoe and the ripper bucket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k18ocfBI9ME

They didn't even have the paint worn off before the bucket link was shattered.

I have no doubt the single tooth ripper will work for you.

2pontoons
04:33:18 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey, Dick
About your prospect shaft...how are you putting this one down? How deep are you at this time? We'll be back in our shaft by the end of April. Kurt

dredger
08:20:34 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick, :smile:

lots of good info in your last post, ,
, I never had the same sharp, hard jarring feeling sitting in the hoe as when I was trying to rip frozen muck,
Ripping frozen muck seems totally different. This stuff doesn't loosen the surrounding, it just breaks a chunk out.
I don't know, not enough experience yet with ripping. I still have to believe for my purpose the best use would come from a single-point ripper.
I think my best approach to ripping this bench is from the bottom working up,

Xxxxxx OK, looks like someone has to pull a rabbit out of a hat to solve these problems,
So, I was just wondering what colour rabbit you want, ? haha,
I will do you a sketch,
Kaveman.
You say,
I think the slanted ripper bucket they used is a defective design. The slop in their bucket linkage surely contributed to the failure, but I think even tight pins would be loosened up soon enough.They didn't even have the paint worn off before the bucket link was shattered.
Sorry i missed that, do you know if there is a utube showing that incident, or of the damage, and or could you please explain in more detail, clock wise or anti clock wise direction, ??. how far it was twisted to, 1 o’clock, 2,??
Nice thing about the 'V' shaped bucket is that all the stress is centred and you're putting all your force into a single spot when the digging is hard. It'll automatically dig deeper and take a larger cut if and when the material allows it. It's no good for making a 'pretty' hole, but it digs better than any other. Had a bucket like that on my old truck-mounted backhoe and have been wanting another for the Kobelco ever since.

xxxxxxx You have convinced me, the more I think about your v-bucket experiences, I think you have found an excellent solution, game over. how about say 36" wide, nice v, 1.5cu mt capacity 20ton, would be best compromise in river gravel, and feeling around on bedrock and big rocks, and dry hard pack, rip and dig out at the same time, maybe i will just cut the teeth and bottom out of my bucket, and just reshape it, Thanks for that, I mean it, but I will keep my ripper for those special occasions,
Phil.


kaveman
13:58:11 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
RE: Gold Rush,.....

I looked last night to see if I could find a vid of the breakage, but no luck(looking again now). The two vids posted on youtube were uploaded by the maker of the Shark bucket and they did a pretty good job of NOT showing the breakage. As I remember the episode, the linkage seemed to break almost instantly upon fitting the 'Shark' ripper bucket,.....certainly it was broken same day/same dig.They did capture the actual moment of breakage in the show. At the time iirc, the bucket had a decent sized boulder in it and the linkage broke while trying to shake the boulder out, but obviously the actual damage had been done while digging/ripping. You can hear it go and see the bucket swinging 'free'. Both of the link arms are twisted and shattered. While contemplating a 'fix', the twisted wreckage is laid out on a table to see if it can be rewelded and it's quite obviously past the point of salvage, even considering the 'make-do' nature of their normal 'fixes'.

They actually manage a pretty decent looking replacement cut and welded from scrap and are later shown working the bedrrock again with that bucket. They engineer a heavy 'H' shaped structure to replace the links and it seems to do a good job of counteracting the torque of the asymmetrical ripper bucket.

Gold Rush show hasn't been mentioned on this forum as far as I know since the initial season one, but I'd like to mention something about it. I was probably one of the most vocal critics of what I considered nothing but a trainwreck which was certainly a fair description of season one(lotsa fake drama,.....little to no actual 'mining'), but I have to admit that later episodes have become not only much more interesting, but actually speckled with good, helpful bits if you study it closely enough. If nothing else, you get a good lesson in what NOT to do. I've probably seen every episode half a dozen times and I've developed the valuable ability to see past the ignorance of its TV-ness and just pick out the value. I think I've learned something of value from each and every episode, not withstanding season one which was still worth suffering through. I'd suggest every serious miner make an attempt to get through it at least once or twice. Seriously.

Can't say the same about the Bering Sea series which is just painful to try and watch. It's fully 99% TV garbage as far as I'm concerned.



kaveman
15:59:26 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
dredger,....my V bucket experience is VERY limited. I probably dug two holes with the 20" V bucket on my backhoe and noticed that it dug MUCH better in hard ground than the 20" standard bucket I had been using. Sold the hoe shortly after and never got another chance to work with it.

Haven't been able to find much on youtube after looking for a couple of hours, but here are a few short vids that were interesting enough to watch,..

V bucket on bedrock,....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jAKEROc6Zc

Single tooth ripper on same,.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfKRhhP_wFg

Interesting enough interview describing rock bucket design features,.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bek0YQKR8is

None of this may be applicable to the subject at hand, but it's the fruit of hours of searching so it's worth posting. I know there are several decent vids of ripper teeth in action, but I haven't searched them yet. I found one running through a couple of feet of frozen earth(with ease), but I doubt it's anything like going through 15' of permafrost.

Fleng
18:58:07 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Has anyone considered high pressure steam as a method to rip the permafrost? There are several energy states of steam depending upon the temperature and pressure. Wearing out the excavator hydraulics and trashing case-hardened steel sounds pretty expensive. Seeing the Gold Rush guys manhandle their equipment - its no wonder they have so much down-time for repairs.

It seems like forcing the machine to do difficult tasks is the sure way to cause a problem. If there was a way to soften up the overburden- hauling it off should be easier. Lets say that seams in the permafrost could be cut so that one-yard chunks could be removed. If we could cut these seams over a few weeks then the stress on the euipment would be far less.

My suggestion is that the cutting with sheets of steam could be done underneath an insulated watershield to make use of the warm condensate before it freezes up again. Hydraulic wedges similar to the "jaws of life" could be inserted into the grid to break the chunks apart in sizes that an excavator could handle.

chickenminer
19:43:31 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Kurt,
Just wood fires. This hole won't be that deep. Down abt 15' now. Terrible stuff to thaw through!
Good luck to you guys this summer.

kaveman...
Some neat stuff to watch there. I can't quite figure those Gold Rush things on Utube. Seems like all advertising. How does a guy get to watch the dang show?!
Guess I need to do more probing in the dark depths of Utube.

Fleng...
Yes, the use of high pressure water cutting has been brought up in this thread. May well be the answer for someones project.

kaveman
22:03:53 Tue
Mar 19 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Dick, most of what I'm finding are previews. They want you to pay $1.99 per episode to watch the full thing. I think I found a free one here,............until they pull it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KReKK24WhGs

It's all re-edited so it's kinda chopped up from the broadcast version. Digging bedroch unsuccessfully at 9:00. The ripper bucket disaster happens about the 18:00 mark, but they seem to have edited out the actual digging and breaking. They do show you the destroyed parts and some wonderful shadetree fabrication,.......which is why I watch it.

At 26:00 they've got the newly fabricated link replaced, but strangely they're back to digging with the standard bucket,....I wonder why? Then they break again(track idler). Lots of broken equipment to enjoy,.....much like true life!

Video and sound quality are pretty poor,....sorry.

Not a lot of Derockers and Rippers and Washplants down here in Indiana, so I get my off-season fix watching the show.

dredger
01:16:50 Wed
Mar 20 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey, Kaveman, thanks, I appreciate the time you put in,

I did a few hours myself, woof, you can get lost in there, aye,: smile:
I could not see much of the v-bucket, and I tried to find more videos on it, still looking,

Exceptional tool for showing people what we are talking about, but very addictive, Check this quickie. OOOOOPs.
:confused:
oops, http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=yX1HQ602gEE&feature=fvwp
testing, back asap.


kaveman
16:02:28 Wed
Mar 20 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
If you look, there are plenty of videos of accidents where the operator actually suffers a fatality. It's kinda ghoulish to watch those, but if you justify it by LEARNING something I can deal with it. The problem there is that some of the situations that ended so badly are just SO stupid, it's hard to pretend even a novice would be so short-sighted as to put himself in that position. Having buildings fall on you while you're undermining them seems pretty obvious,......but there are several videos of excavators falling off of mountains and those usually start off in positions that don't seem too tricky in the beginning. Definitely eye-opening to see how quickly things change.

After watching another couple of hours of youtubes, I'm very glad I don't have to deal with permafrost! Other than the $77,000 XCentric(that thing is sweet!), I don't think there really is a good answer. There's one video that compares the XCentric side-by-side with a hydraulic hammer and really puts the hammer to shame, and I think they bring in the hydraulic hammer when the single ripper can't get the job done,.....and I'm sure the single ripper digs easier than just about anything else.

Hydraulicking if you've got the water and room(I know you don't). Isn't it a standard method to strip in two stages,........stripping the insulating vegatation off in one season and then handling the melted permafrost the following year? I do understand the problem with handling the thawed muck in the second year; 15 feet of undrained 'ooze' to push around,.......which brings us back to your original desire to handle it as frozen chunks. I suppose we're right back to your opening post where the only decent option is a simple single ripper tooth attached to the 300 and 'wishing' we had $77,000 to spend on the XCentric ripper instead. Sorry to have dragged this all the way around to where your initial thought was the correct one, but I did have fun researching the problem.

When I was shopping for a ripper I saw more SEC than anything else. There was an equipment yard in Medford OR that had maybe a dozen different rippers and the Geith did certainly look to be the best of the lot FWIW.

chickenminer
22:30:30 Wed
Mar 20 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Kev..
I appreciate your input. Watched that Gold Rush thing, kind of fun. I see the ripper bucket you speak of, but boy they didn't show its use very long! That is funny after the "fix" he's got the old bucket back on.

Well... the ripper is just something I want to try. My old methods for removing muck was strip the vegetation and either use hydraulicing as it thawed, or do the wait...strip...wait ...strip method. Muck thaws sloooow.
Too big a hurry and your trying to push liquid jello around. This piece of ground isn't something I'm going to get stripped in one season.

Yes, a lot of SEC stuff on the RB auctions. But I hear you get what you pay for in the SEC brand.
We'll see what happens. I'm sure I'll come up with a ripper of some sort to try out this summer.

dredger
23:58:19 Wed
Mar 20 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey guys,

I have some to post but not quite finished,

But, Dick,

Once you have a chunk torn off, does it stick inside the bucket, ??, and you have to shake it out of the bucket, ??.

Does a bucket move it, ?

phil.

kaveman
00:06:59 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Strangely enough they eventually do go back to the ripper bucket on the 270 and tear up with that while bailing the paydirt away with the Daewoo/Doosan 350 or whatever it was. The ripper bucket seemed to work better with the home-made replacement link so I have to give them credit on that patch job.

Most of this season's episodes relate to stripping permafrost in one place or another, but all the stripping is done with Cats,....D9 and D10 this season,.......done with a D8 last year. Looks like a nightmare of a job. When they first break it up it isn't so bad, but when they don't get it pushed off quick enough it turns into just what it is,......a sea of muck. Driving around on your slope on tracks, I'd be terrified of sliding over the edge on a dozer.

Hey, I've got an idea. Rid yourself of all those diesel contraptions and get yourself a pick! Your claim looks to be set up perfectly for drifting in from creek level.

Have you got any idea as to the costs of trucking something like a ripper up to where you are? I'll be back out in Portland and Medford in a week and wouldn't mind shopping one up for you, but now that I think about it,.....the place in Medford was pretty firm at $3000 for the SEC and although it was nearly new, the only thing it had that my $500 ripper didn't have was 1/4" more clearance between the ears. I decided that if it took me a week with the grinder to get my clearance it would be a week of good pay.

dredger
02:18:35 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Kaveman,

I wrote quite a post in reply to your links,posts, but it is dragging out as usual, so I will post yours asap.

Hey Dick,

I hope you have a quick hitch that enables you to to turn a bucket or ripper 180 degrees,

If so, and without any mods you could consider this,




testing,

Jim_Alaska
02:32:40 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Kev talking about slippery conditions once the muck thawed reminded me of an incident I had last winter at the hardrock mine. This has nothing to do with rippers, but I thought it might provide a bit of amusement.

It was late winter/early spring. Time to plow the eight feet of snow off of the back side of the mountain road so we could get the dump trucks up to the mine site. This is a forest service road, narrow and not maintained.

We had an early melt that evidently allowed the water to penetrate the snow and form sheet ice under it. I had no idea at the time, and never slipped a track at all while plowing, didn't even know there was any ice there.

Topping out and starting down the back side seemed ok, except for snow building up on the blade of the D-8 to the point I could hardly see over it. But it was all downhill and seemed to push just fine.

Now on this side of the mountain, I have mountain on the left and a sheer drop-off on the right that is at least a thousand feet deep, sloping off to the valley below.

Everything went well and I got the road plowed all the way to the mine site. Turning around, I started back. No plowing now, it was all clear. Cooking along in third gear, I was making good time until I reached the back side of the mountain that sloped downhill.

Of course now what had been downhill on the way in, is uphill. With absolutely no warning the D-8 slid sideways toward the valley below at break-neck speed. To say my hair stood on end would be an understatement.

The only thing between me and certain death a thousand feet below was the snow berm I had pushed up on the way down.

At first I thought it was a freak happening. I just hit a patch of very slick, melting ice. But when I tried to move foreward again, I would no sooner get started than it would slide sideways again. It turned out that the whole road on the back side of the mountain was ice.

I don't mind saying I did some serious praying. I know that in Alaska they weld rebar across the growsers on the track to get traction, but in California? Who would have ever thought!!! Now the growsers are acting like ice skates,

If I took my feet off of the brakes the cat would start to creep backwards even with the blade down. Now here I am on this cat, on the back side of the mountain. Can't get off and leave it and can't move without sliding. It was a very tense time for a while.

I had no choice, I had to think of a way to move without sliding over the edge. I could see that the ice ended about thirty yards up the road, if I could just somehow make it there everything would be ok.

The decision I made was to try to move the cat while doing everything in slow motion. I only idyled the engine, lifted the blade and now came the tricky part. I had to let off both brakes exactly evenly. To let off one more than the other caused the track to slip and the cat would slide sideways again.

Engine idyling, slowly letting out on the brakes just enough to allow the cat to move and no hands on the steering levers, it began to creep foreward. If I had to steer at all I would have been in trouble and it worried me because my natural inclination was to get it away from the edge. But I couldn't, I had to just keep creeping foreward.

In any event it worked, but I have to admit that the experience took a toll on me emotionally as well as physically. I reached where the ice ended and all was well once again. This is one experience I hope to never have to go through again in this lifetime.

I consider it a miracle that the low, freshly pushed up snow berm stopped that D-8 from going over the edge.


Now back to the original topic of this thread.


dredger
02:54:44 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Excellent post Jim,

I have a much better picture how tracks and ice are dangerous, I have not ever experienced ice or permafrost, but I now really understand Dicks concerns, and circumstances,

Plus, getting out of your situation slowly sounds like it is worth remembering, :smile:

Thanks,

Phill.

chickenminer
05:13:29 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Jim...
Ya, those are the "pucker factor" moments I was speaking of !
I've had more than my share and don't need any more, no siree, Bob !!

chickenminer
05:25:47 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Kev,
Sometimes just the pick and shovel seems tempting!

Ya, the shipping from the West Coast is a killer. I see all kinds of great buys but always gotta figure those extra 000's in freight. Any ripper from the states is gonna cost be another 2k for freight.

Phil ....
The quick coupler would allow me to swap. Interesting idea ..... hmmm. Gotta give that more thought.

The frozen muck chunks come out of the bucket fine and with the thumb really no problem to handle.
I like your graphics :smile:

dredger
06:43:40 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick,
Just read you last message, Phil ....
The quick coupler would allow me to swap. Interesting idea ..... hmmm. Gotta give that more thought.

The frozen muck chunks come out of the bucket fine and with the thumb really no problem to handle.
I like your graphics :smile:

That ok, but if the coupler did not, this next suggestion would have done that for you, reversed the hitch, ok frozen chunks, great, I am really getting a feel for your hard ground and frozen muck from the videos too, great stuff,
I was writing this before,

I think if you were able to use the boom rams together with the bucket ram, and lift up, ( yes there would be a learning curve learning to operate in ??, reverse, ) lift up not scrap down, I think your 300 is very capable of ripping up very well,
You could start ripping from the top layer, push them aside, and clumps would fall down, working a wide face, the excavator could work on one, while the loader clears the other face, ??
Most of your ripping would be done using the boom rams with just a little help from the dipper and a little help from the bucket ram, but I think you could make head way, considering you are a one man op, but to even test the idea, you will need to be able to reverse mount you ripper, when you get it, and you can do that,

Now as you consider my next suggestion, please note, I suggested that you pay for a expert opinion before you actually do it, I hope he will confirm my suggestions,
Ideally what you need is a face shovel concept to work a face situation, Face shovels are known or used excavate blasted materials as well rock as well as hard packed material, always working the face from below, only machine for working the face from below,
I Have got a little bit more graphics yet, will post now.
While you are waiting, check out my next glory hole toy,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQLUHbHDiI4
back asap,
phil.


dredger
09:49:44 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
This suggestion starts with welding 2 hydraulic ram mounts on your machine, and moving or refitting the ram on top of the boom, under the boom, and mounting or refitting the ram on the front of the dipper, to behind the dipper, and move the thumb from the back to the front, welding 2 hyd ram mounts , 1 under the boom, and a double ram mount on the back of the dipper,
Then you would have a combination, excavator or face shovel, just by changing the rams and hitch, I think you would be able to make a cradle that clamps on to rams, so you can lift them and change them around easy, for one guy, and the 200 lifting the cradle, may 3 hours to change over, my line of thought is you could use the face shovel for say half season for clearing the frozen muck, then change the rams back for excavator , to rip and dig the frozen gravels, for the rest of the season, maybe a 2 weeks either way, ??.
I suggest having 2 rams on the dipper, well that is what you already have if your thumb is hydraulic, would present a few choices to bucket, ripper, thumb, attachments, for example, a ripper and a thumb, or ripper and a v shaped twin ripper thumb, then quick change the ripper for matching v-shaped twin ripper teeth, thumb clam shell buckets with full size rams x 2, ouch what a bit, 1.5 or 2 cu mt, why not 3 cu. ??.
Actually you could leave the original rams were they are, and fit 2 extra equal size rams and have face shovel or excavator at the flick of a switch, ??
I think there are many combinations.
I have another idea on disposing of the black muck too,
Dick, mate, I hope i do not offend you in begging you have to find people in your area, to build you a ripper and trick buckets, who have the scrap steel just lying around, find the people, find the scrap, buy teeth ect and arrange everything, if you do not like doing this type of design and fabrication, find a local who does, please. I see lots of guys making and fixing and welding heavy steel in your videos,

Testing.


dredger
15:16:53 Thu
Mar 21 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

Hey Kavman,

I was writing a long post on the ripper video when you posted, I will add it to the end of this, but not finished yet,
I watched allot more utube vids and found allot more , wow,
I found the video with the twisted pusher arm, very interesting, I watched the lot many times, I would think the twisting bucket caused that, but agree nice repair too,
A tip there for the new guys, is when you are welding bits like the fabricated pusher arm, when using the pin to line it up, to tact weld, remember that cooling tact welds twist the bushes and jamb the pin, so tack and let cool and twist the pin, again and again, be careful, and keep twisting the pin, checking checking untill everything is firmly tacked in place,

If I was trying to get a excavator over a steep hill, I would have lift balance the machine into the hill. and extended the arm, to slewed around against the wall, gently, placed the bucket and push / lift walk myself up to better ground, he was definitely not thinking,

Broken idler, Why,?? all that banging on hard rock’s while scratching up very little, and banging the heck out of a idler pin, an idler pin or axle shaft usually has a flat square plate the slides in a slot, by the looks of that one, someone should have seen or be checking well before it let go, that should have been seen on the morning check,
New guys please note once the idler pin breaks, the idler is trapped, walking or driving on that jamb idler will cause further wear, and damage,
The only answer to any track problem is to have lots of practice walking a machine on one track, any operator should have enough practice to walk a machine on one track and out of the mud and hole, as second ( well practiced ) nature, to get out of the machine and fully access the problem, please not in the mud, if repairs are needed, walk the machine on one track back to the work shop area, or out of the way, do not drive on it, you are only grinding the track chain on the jamb idler gear, practice to be able to get 1/4 to one 1/2 normal tracking speed, ( not in Rabbit mode, )
Another good trick is whenever you are having anything to do with a machine, check the idler wheel adjustment grease ram, so you loosen the grease nipple and lift the machine applying pressure of the weight of the track to the idler, until some grease comes out of the grease nipple, showing the idler (greased ) piston moves and is free and not seized in, big bad trouble fixing a seized grease piston tensioner, big problem, I just hate it, close the grease nipple and pump new grease in / adjust to where the track chain cannot slip off, ok, if you operate a machine with a seized piston, soona or later the track wears a little, or just enough for the right rocks to slip the track over the idler, and you cannot release the seized piston to relief the tension on the idler, and you will believe you will never get the track on before you may fluke it , or not,
On the other hand, or should i say the other end, there is the drive motors, when these get banged and banged, I see small planetary gears being chipped or cracked, tiny bits of gear hard facing chipped off, bearing surfaces to, a tip with final drives is to check and recycle gear oil regally, more then manufacturers specs, easy to check for fine metal chips in the final drives is make sure the drives have been used for 30 mins, park the machine on an angle so the final drive oil all runs out when the plug is removed, catch the oil in clean container, filter the oil through fine cloth materials, dark coloured, black or red, then lift the machine and drive the free track until the plug is at the top, half a turn, pour the filtered clean oil back in the drive, and reposition the machine on an angle to drain the other drive, do the same, and compare the metal chips on the filter rags in direct sunlight, if one is more metal then the other, check again after a days work, you can detect a failing bearing or drive gear quickly and easerly, and replace it before it grinds everything, big dollars compared to a few bearing or gears,
It is getting late, so I will leave my concerns about the water fall and the way that machine was being shocked, real hard shocking grinding, causing failures, when if he only had a ripper, he could have done what i have done many times before, ( only on a smaller scale, ), and it was real fun, not torture, I have a really good "rant " on that water fall, I dreamt how I would have done it last night after seeing the water fall on u-tube, and I will dream the same sweet dream again tonight I hope,
Last thought before bed, a small quickly made ramp is the best shock absorber for accidental shocks, no big rocks please, it is all about protecting the ends of the track, lower track idler rollers are heaps stronger and easy to replace, or check for wear in just minutes, do it the safe way, wear in idlers can also be easerly detected, by lifting the machine off the tracks and feel each roller turns in your hands real quick, any resistance use a small crow bar to check for play, and check for leaks, and have one good spare roller to change id any defects or wear are found, the worn roller is then gets new or reconditioned seals and new bushes, and is usually good to go, sometimes you have to replace a shaft,
check this for a bumpy ride, some people think running a machine like this is taking longer to make more money, but I would suggest I could rip the job, and take long enough to make just as much money, and save the machine wear and tear,
Kaveman I will save the suggestion on the ripper video, to a bit later, I think I am mixing up posts and subject,
back asap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C54E2mnBPgM&list=PLFA05D8E4AD93E469&feature=endscreen&NR=1

dredger
06:10:09 Sat
Mar 23 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Kaveman.

I watched and studied as many referrals concerning the water fall excavation, ( bits of the video), unknowingly to me, I was actually focused on the alluvial gravels in and around the water fall, hard packed gravels, bedrock buckets skidding over rock hard packed gravels, feeling and knowing I had been there, done that, bucket skidding over alluvial rock hard packed ancient gravels,

I do rip and dredge these gravels, on a much smaller scale, and I think you do to, which also spent thousands of years in the packing harder, and find them in high benches working by the old timers, and please note the Dam I have been digging, as per pic above,

So, I think it fair for me to assume that my hard pack Alluvial gravels are pretty much the same as the hard packed around that water fall, and considering specific experience in excavators and dredging with excavator type passion,

I would suggest this as next years or future agenda's, doing a water fall, one might have a scenario as follows,
The smaller excavator has shown how it scraps on hard pack, and then it half ripped the hard pack, (they all said the three tooth bucket was until it broke, and was later seen to being used again, proving the solution was a ripper type concept, and I can imagine that type of bucket would be hard to work, but as can be seen in the video’s it was used again,

(at this point I am assuming that the bottom of the water fall was not cleaned out, and surrounding gravels investigated, )

I fit a ripper to the?? 26 ton excavator, and drive it to the top of the ramp and select a site on the right, back into the hill, to ripe an area big enough to allow a Volvo 6x6 truck to drive in enough to reverse out and down the rest of the ramp,
The line of thought being 1 truck is loading, an empty truck is waiting in the turnaround area, the loaded truck pulls passed, the empty one can reverse down,
Note to self, locate area to dump as close as possible to the top of the ramp,
So a quick rip and the big excavator working together to get it done quick, , then the ripper is used t down the inside wall of the hill perhaps 6-8' wide /deep, while the bigger excavator removes and loads it on to the first truck., and any payable gavels are thrown in the hole, the idea is cut by ripping, into the rock seen in the video's using the ripper, please note closer to the bottom of the hole on the ramp is some protruding hard looking rock, I would suggest the ripper could and would easierly rip 6' into that face, Not the waterfall face, with the line of thought that trucks will be using the ramp 24/7 none stop, good solid road for long term use,
Then the ripper goes into ripping the hole in front of the water fall, rip all around the area, easy reach for the big excavator bucket, the ripper machine moves back and the big bucket, comes in and digs around until he is on and feels a un ripped bottom level, left by the ripper, (operator, ) basically like a dish, were the gravels and rocks are basically washed and broken up by the ripper, washed as can be seen in the video,
The bigger bucket skims the lager rocks, and loads them in the truck, the operator thinking gold pan full fresh rocky rich gravels and how wash and settle the heavies causes the bigger rocks to the surface, dropping the gold to the bottom of the pan, and only skimming the smaller gravels leaving a metre deep loose gravels and gold, then the ripper moves in and rips deeper, Perhaps finding bed rock, and the base of the water fall,
Back asap. Got to eat,


dredger
06:01:07 Sun
Mar 24 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
OH, here is a tip or trick, for really big bolts that break, leaving a good length of bolt, as seen in the video, the plant mechanic got it out pretty quick, that takes alot of experience, and could have turned really bad if he had accidently touched the exposed thread with the electrode, destroying the thread, or slag welded itself into the thread would stop unscrewing the bolt, and that would be harder to fix, so when you, yes baby you , do your first broken bolt, on your machine, I suggest this method,
Ok, drill a hole through the broken bolt, and look at the head of the bolt which showed oxidization on the thread where it was broken, possibly suggesting that the reason why it broke in the first place was because the bit left in the hole is badly rusted into the outer case,, the broken bolt thread has oxidized “ into and with “ the oxidizing opposing thread surface, guessing around %40 tensile strength to break it free, so next is heat, heat it up red hot and don’t start a fire, no wait, not the fire, let’s use a real “ penetrate” , something that in a little time will dissolve all the oxidation, tetrachloroethylene, yum yum,
Basically found at the bike shop and used for chains on bikes, lubricant penetrate, reduces , wear, protects, used myself last 20 years, speaking of which, a few little home test can be done to prove that it dissolve s oxidation,
1, Put it on the rustiest pair of pliers you can find, Saturate and in 2 days you can move the arms, amazing, keep working them and it frees up,
2, in auto mobile manufacture 60 -90 it was a habit to hold interior plastic trim by screwing a pressed thin metal nut onto a plastic shaft, which after all that time, the metal nut cutting edge has rusted into the plastic, and any attempts to remove or move the nut, tighten or un-tighten, the plastic shaft snaps, so for the 15 years, I have got heaps of nuts off, by first saturating the nut and leaving for a bit, and never broke another plastic shaft again,
3, find any push bike chain the is rusted mostly tight saturate, and 2 days later it is free, looking like a clean metal chain, ,
Works for me,
:smile:

Coeur_D_Alene
08:32:08 Sun
Mar 24 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hi Chicken Miner I was wondering if this thing would do permafrost.

http://www.mascus.com/construction/used-mining-equipment/rahco/cme-12+continuous+excavator/images/flckbudi.html

1985 RAHCO CME-12 Continuous Excavator, s/n CME1254436, is capable of excavating at a capacity of 630 – 900 tons per hour. It has a CAT 3408 Diesel engine, 416 hours, front-mounted cutter, feed conveyor, underhung transfer chute, rear mounted discharge conveyor. Designed for open pit coal mining, but is an efficient system for other uses. New price approx. $4,000,000.00
$675,000.00 Spartanburg, South Carolina

Maybe find one older and cheaper, ..... Is frozen muck harder than Coal??? "V"


dredger
01:33:15 Mon
Mar 25 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
OOps, I forgot to mention this in the last post,

yum yum,

Once the penetrate has soaked and lubes the thread, use an "easy out " to remove the broken bolt, although I can usually use a screw driver to unscrew the broken bolt,
I like using this method, cause I can use 24volt drill powered off the digger, or battery drill to drill the hole, I don't have to drag a generator or welder to the machine, and no heating one end of the frame to red hot, looks bad too.
back asap.


chickenminer
04:40:09 Mon
Mar 25 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
C_D_A ...
Well that's quite the machine! My limited experience with coal is that coal is pretty soft stuff.
Don't think that contraption would work very efficient
in permafrost.
Would be fun to give it a go though:smile:.
Thanks for the post!

charlene91
17:40:37 Mon
Mar 25 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
OK ONE MORE TIME AND YOU ALL WILL NOT HEAR FROM ME AGAIN ON THIS SUBJEBT ..I HAVE NAD DEALINGS WITH PERMFORST OUT SIDE OF FAIRBANKS AFTER WE CLEARED AWAY THE BLACK SPRUCE AND MOSS AND AFTER EXPOSED THE PERMFORST TO THE SUN LIGHT AND WARM SUMMER AIR IN 4TO 5 DAYS WE WERE ABLE TO MOVE THE SILT AND GET TO THE GRAVEL ...NOW I DO UNDERSTAND THAT IT TAKES PATICENCE BUT IT DOES WORK AND I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU BOYS LIKE ALL OF THOSE BIG TOYS

Coeur_D_Alene
19:31:43 Mon
Mar 25 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick;
I suppose a break down with the machine full of muck, no way to move it or get it clean...Well then muck would refreeze back together in the contraption, and there she'd sit froze like the muck in the muck until spring....eh?

But I think summer time muck might just blow through this if you catch it at the right consistency, but that would probably be a small window of opportunity, also you would have to time your bites into the muck with the time it takes to cycle a dump truck load.

dredger
05:15:37 Tue
Mar 26 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper


:smile:

dredger
03:58:45 Tue
Apr 2 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Jim, Dick,

Wow,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytjq9shhBIA
Moon walking ,
:smile:
phil.

chickenminer
05:33:57 Tue
Apr 2 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil,
Hmmm (scratching my head) ... I'm trying to figure out the point of that whole video ?!?
Okay, it's slick out. Lousy traction. When that happens to me on the hoe I usually cuss a lot !

BTW... I'm trying to find an old ripper shank off a D-8 ripper
that I can use to build my own excavator ripper.

dredger
10:44:00 Tue
Apr 2 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Hey Dick,

After watching the gold show on video I see slipping on ice is quite a problem, I would like to see your tracks plates, cleats? or whatever you did to your tracks, ??.

It would be handy to solve the problem of slipping on ice, ??

Happy to hear you are making your own ripper, do you have any ideas yet, ?? About the head plate, and ears,??.

I found this video, thought you might find it interesting, :smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=1LtXfzJGW-E&feature=endscreen
Ripper in concrete, it appears this guy is only ripping the top of the concrete drive way, Please note he is not having any trouble ripping good hard concrete, I have never experienced frozen alluvial gravels, So I can’t say anything, but I am thinking your ripper will work very well in frozen alluvial gravels, ˝ frozen ice, ˝ frozen gravel, ???.



Jim_Alaska
15:09:20 Tue
Apr 2 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
If you wait to see the close-up of those tracks you will see that there are no cleats on the pads. That would be slick under most circumstances.

Jim_Alaska
15:12:30 Tue
Apr 2 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil, the normal remedy for ice conditions if to weld short pieces of rebar on top of the cleats of the track pads. This lets the track get a "bite" in the ice and prevents side slipping.

dredger
04:31:16 Wed
Apr 3 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Thanks Jim,
I am just curious because any slipping while ripping would make it really hard to rip quickly.
I wonder is rebar a remedy or just helps a little, ??? ,
I should imagine if slipping on frozen muck or frozen gravels can be stopped all together, that would result in maybe a month or two longer mining either end of the season for Dick, and the guys in the mining video,
If I remember correctly, in the gold rush video series, the young guy had to end the season cause of frozen ground, he would have got good gold for the season if he could have keep digging for a week longer,, or next season he could start earlier if he could rip frozen ground,
Same with the miners with the big blue trommel, ??. Frozen ground stopped them too,
I also think there would be great advantage in being able to get a big excavator on top of the frozen muck, high up the bench, frozen or not, no slipping, to drill test holes, what are we talking here, 10 or 20 test holes, maybe 30 tests ,a day all drilled with a excavator,
hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etVnewXZQvMoles a day,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe7kULYvDKM
In Australia, in the opal fields, miners drill holes in dry hard ground, 3' dia, 18 metres deep, ( testing for the opal layers ) and I was thinking dry hard or frozen hard, ok, in placer, when you hit big rock the drill would certainly tell you, and you would have to dig by hand, or just move over,
I would also suggest using say 3 home made steel frame platforms, with long spikes that will spike in any muck or gravel frozen surface, even on a slope, even for using in ripping, used like this, ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNNNUoqBKdE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfVKY8ZGXXM
Just trying to help “ extend “ the mining season,


chickenminer
19:47:04 Wed
Apr 3 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Phil,
Welding ice cleats on the grousers is no remedy. You still slide around, but it is better than flat grousers! There is a happy medium you have to acheive because the ice cleats in the summer cause a RUFF riding machine on rocks/bedrock !

Thanks for posing the drill videos. I was surprised how slow he could turn that auger. That is a key element in drilling frozen ground.

Jim_Alaska
19:56:23 Wed
Apr 3 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
Dick is right. The ice cleats mainly help in keeping from sliding sideways. They don't do a whole lot for traction when ripping or pushing on ice and snow.

dredger
23:21:56 Wed
Apr 3 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neaIF7WDGUg&NR=1&feature=endscreen
oopps,

dredger
06:11:10 Thu
Apr 4 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper


Dick,
No worries, I like drills too, and speaking of " pucker " I hope you never have to climb straight up and straight down a 18 mtr deep drill hole ladder, ( just thinking about it makes me dizzy, you climb down the ladder, then I thought about climbing back up the whole time i was down there, )what a double pucker that was,
Suggestion for you,

1, is high bench, side on view,
2, frozen vegetation,
3, frozen black muck,
4, frozen gravels,
5, bedrock high bench, on right current river bedrock level,
6, is excavator moving in and out on a pad of processed river gavels,
7, 3’ orga
8, is first bore hole.
9, is bore hole under first bore hole. Pink line is gavels between bore holes, to be removed by bogger, 6’ x 3’ tunnel.
10, is gravel bored out , just falls down slope, as the orga is pulled out,
11, is work face area at the end of the tunnel,
Then you dig with this,
Hyd Tunnelling excavator ripper, extensively used in opal mining, Australia, ( fast as a one claw cockroach on steroids, ) cheap , compact, so strong, actually at this point, I should mention there is a ram that runs vertical to lock the unit in place in the tunnel, ( can be seen in pic, )although a horizontal ram configuration would also lock it into place, working one of these was a interesting experience, no machine / engine noise, no movement in the digger controls and you are standing, a video game, or you can have a seat, and the only hyd digging machine that do not move or jump around while operating, it locks in place, and defiantly over powered to rip 100 million years old layers of hard packed gravels 18 metres deep, great fun, a little giant monster, hyd give off heat for the operator, but do not think it would be enough to cause a problem in a frozen tunnel, leave / stack all the big rocks in the tunnel,???. Dig tunnels on angles,

Remote control, walk behind hyd loader dump truck, bogga,

The digger and loader run on hyd lines plugged into a excavator, or small hyd /diesel= outside,
Good one man operation, the digger rips enough materials then moves out of the way, and the loader moves the material, two man operation, is faster but the loader double handles, makes it really quick, please note there are no big rocks in opal mining, but I would have a go, better then pick and shovel. And you can make them yourself,
These cleats and slipping on ice are a worry, the only suggestion I can think of is that when you try ripping a face above and in front you, and you are ripping " up " ( the ripper reversed) you build or rip a angled pad on small river gravels that leans into the face,
If you are ripping down the front of the face the machine wants to lift the tracks, so perhaps tilting the pad backwoods might give you more perch and less lift // skid and more rip,, ??.
Last idea is if you have a elect generator, sealed unit, 18hp or above you could mount that behind the cab, just for testing, and use the compartment behind the cab to hide side in a compact heater unit, powered by the generator, hot air , and I mean really hot air, could be ducted or blown on to the under carriage frame and tracks, perhaps a light rubber skirt around the slew ring area, I think the undercarriage and tracks would transfer the heat to under the machine area well. Slow and hot air, ??.
Bacon and eggs only one hour after start up, on the track plate would be great, My line of thought is just to melt a few inches of frozen gravel would improve traction, even just softening the surface of the frozen gravels, ????, heated track muffins, ha,


dredger
06:52:45 Sat
Apr 6 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper

Ok , out of the many hours spent on u-tube I suggest these few vids are most relative to ripping, sorry no 20ton, 30ton, 40ton machines ripping below ground level, I could not find any,
,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Mww2cntF0mk&NR=1
ripping vertical face, machine is jumping around, very slow ripping, or actually moving dirt,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1-7NXRJf4I
Ripping and moving forward on higher ground , machine jumps around a little, lifting tracks,, dropping, but can and is ripping some hard ground effectively .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHB2XdfcSVo
Reverse ripping. Small machine in soft dirt shows “ my best method “ were the machine rips and moves back, rips again, moves back over “ a large area “, , then he quickly scoops out the ripped loose materials with a bucket,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oWlOVW83go this is a 67ton machine powerful and heavy, ripping and digging very hard rock, quick “ at and below machine / ground level” , easy on the machine, very little rocking the machine, good dipper speed during rip, and maximum mechanical advantage , please note he only uses short rips, ??. new guys please note
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0KvY0q0tQM
225 loading light stuff quickly, similar to ripped materials.
?v=JPUgt6mvMMo
loading truck quickly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQy5Ejm44Ww
in the mud, and a reminder that it is always worth taking the time to make good ramps and roads,


dickb
15:33:24 Sat
Apr 6 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
"reminder that it is always worth taking the time to make good ramps and roads".

I absolutely agree. No way would I allow the machines near the face of that cut. Start at the rear of the bench and cut a road that slopes back toward the high side if the cut so there is no way that the machine can slide toward the face and drop over the edge. That would be a real killer.

Dickb

dredger
00:57:44 Mon
Apr 29 2013
Re: Excavator Ripper
I would suggest new guys please note, my rule of thumb is a ripper length is relative to the weight of the excavator, and length of the dipper, and the ground or rock or hard pack to be ripped,
So, starting with say,
20ton excavator, short to medium dipper, short to med boom, ripper length = 24”
30ton excavator, short to medium dipper, short to med boom, ripper length = 36”
40ton excavator, short to med dipper, short to med boom ripper length = 48”
On the other hand, and in a specific method ,( dredging with a excavator ) my line of thought is in river gravels that are full of larger rocks, I suggest that a longer ripper may be advantageous if the focus of the operation is to drop the gold “ through “ the gravels and bring the larger rocks to the surface for removal, ( pre classification of bigger rocks ) before using a suction dredge type concept to clean the bedrock,
I (20 ton) would like to try a 48” ripper length in wet river rocky gravels, new guys please note, even though these river gravels are wet, there is still allot of mud, / clay sucking and holding on big rocks, so digging with a wide bucket is not easy,
back asap, :smile:



Excavator Ripper
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