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dragline
04:44:18 Mon
Oct 8 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat

I'm right at the end of a release cycle on a completely different project and I haven't had any time to work on my saw-tooth mat for a few months. I will hopefully be getting back to work on it again beginning the week of Monday, 15-Oct-2012. The first thing I'll do is put the saw-tooth mat up for sale on eBay. After that I'll switch gears and get my digital marketing crew working on youtube videos and maybe developing my goldfever.com website for sales.

Nothing happens quickly in business, unfortunately.

dragline

  
geowizard
20:29:50 Mon
Oct 8 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat

dragline,

What are you doing between midnight and four in the morning? :confused:

- Geowizard

  
Golddigger
05:26:43 Fri
Oct 12 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Hello Dragline,sorry but i don't know where to buy this African pattern rubber rifle mat.when I have more time I will do some more research into it,as I told you it is hard to find info about.If we can find a S.African prospecting equip.supplier we have more change of getting more information.your Saw-tooth mat seem to be an active exchange mat since it keeps the gold and the black sands are being replaced with it.The same principle the Gold Hog matting is working on.Just got my Razor-Back Gold Hog mat in for fine gold recovery in stream sluices and will experiment with this on my cons. i think your Saw-tooth mat will be a good product since it is used in the past and in S.Africa. To be a succes it also depends of the price and for how much you are going to sell it, as so many mining products are sold just to mine the miner. For me the Keene mat is to expensive the Gold Hog mat I just could afford and just bought 3 pieces of RazorBack for $25.10 a piece in special sale normal price $35.80 a piece. For selling your Saw-tooth mat to the many weekend prospectors your pricing need to be acceptable for this market since recreational prospectors have less money to spend,this is ofcourse different if you aim to sell only to the professional gold prospecting market. Let me know when you are selling your Saw-tooth mat if it is in my price range I will buy some,just to compaire it to the GoldHog Razorback mat.Good luck with your product and keep up the good work!

  
dragline
00:05:36 Sun
Oct 14 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Golddigger,

In regards to my Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat I really only consider my direct competition to include Keene’s Miracle Mat and the various Gold Hog Mats. Here are my observations below concerning my competition. While there are numerous V-Rib Mats, Runner Mats and composite mats like the Vortex Mat, there are so many operational and performance differences between these diverse designs I have limited my discussion to mats with very similar form and function.

Keene's Miracle Mat: Keene's retail price on Miracle Mat is $8 per linear foot at a 35 inch wide extrusion. In other words, if your sluice is 10 inches wide and 35 inches long you will pay about $80 plus shipping charges. That works out to approximately $41.14 per square foot. Please don't get be wrong. I really like Keene's Miracle Mat. As with most of Keene's products it exemplifies Keene's superior engineering and design skills. To see an image of Keene's Miracle Mat compared with V-Rib and Shallow Ribbed Mats click here on Bill and Linda's Prospecting Page. In my opinion Keene’s Miracle Mat is an excellent performer but a bit pricey as compared to the competition. With a proper price to performance analysis I believe that the competition has no trouble beating Keene hands down. After researching the various manufacturing processes involved in extruding these mats I can offer my opinion as to why Keene prices their Miracle Mat considerably higher than the competition. I estimate that the tooling costs for Keene's continuous 35 inch extrusion may have approached $100,000.00 USD. While I may be all wet concerning this estimate I can tell you that if I were to have designed for a 36 inch wide extrusion that's how much it would of cost me.

Gold Hog Mats: As of my writing on 13-Oct-2012, the three Gold Hog Mats currently showcase are the Under Riffle, the Scrubber and the Razorback. At 6 inches long and 36 inches wide Gold Hog’s prices run respectively $10.95, $11.95 and $11.95 per linear foot. The corresponding price per square foot for these mats run $21.90, $23.90 and $23.90. However, Gold Hog is currently out of stock on the Razorback but they are offering a problematic batch of this mat at 30% off. The Razorback’s bad batch problem relates to a dimensional concern such that the 6 inch sections do not fit together snugly as intended. This flaw doesn't adversely affect the performance of the mat but it does require special handling when bonding sections together. At 30% off the Razorback price drops to about $16.73 (shipping costs excluded) per square foot and is a superbly performing alternative to Keene’s Miracle Mat (while supplies last).

Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat: After adding up the tooling and manufacturing costs for my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth mat I can tell you that I will have very little if any profit for my efforts if I am to price my mat competitively to the Gold Hog mats. After considering my options I have decided to price my Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat lower than any of Gold Hog’s standard pricing but not quite as low as Gold Hog’s special pricing on their Razorback (bad batch) Mat. That said, however, after factoring in shipping costs I can proudly say that my Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat is priced lower than even Gold Hog’s Razorback bad batch special pricing. My hope is that if I can ever get to the volume levels of my competition I might begin to see a profitable payback for my efforts.

dragline

  
dragline
01:11:08 Sun
Oct 14 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Here are my price comparisons for my Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat against what I consider to be my principle competition.



  
dragline
01:46:03 Sun
Oct 14 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

By shipping via the USPS Priority and Express Mail Flat-Rate Envelopes and Boxes I can offer very fast shipping as compared to UPS or FedEx Ground rates and because I ship all orders received before noon the same day you will get your shipement fast.

To be fair, I really like my competition's products, especially Gold Hog's excellent performance and pricing. I must tell you, however, that Gold Hog's Mats are designed to be more versatile than my Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat. All of Gold Hog's Mats are designed to perform well under a wide range of flow and inclination conditions. The same is true for my Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat.

You probably won't notice too many significant performance differences between the average fine gold recovery efficiencies for Gold Hog's Mats versus my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat. But what you will find is that for extremely fine gold, i.e. minus 100 mesh, my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat will outperform any of Gold Hog's Mats. That said, all of Gold Hog's Mats will be superior to my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat when it comes to recovering pickers. My 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat is not designed to capture and recover plus 10 mesh gold (pickers) efficiently. For this reason you should consider my Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat appropriate only for specific situations.

Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat Applications:

1. Clean-Up Sluices: As a clean-up sluice where you have taken the time and effort to classify your concentrates to about a minus 12 mesh or smaller you will probably not find a more efficient gold recovery system especially when you consider the ratio of gold to non-gold black and blond sands in your final concentrates. The continuously active concentration combined with the ultra-low turbulence of the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat allows for extreme ultra-fine gold recovery performance when feed and flow rates are tuned appropriately for a highly classified ore input.

2. General Purpose Sluices: The proper application for the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat in a more general purpose sluice should consider that the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat is only designed to efficiently recover fine to ultra-fine gold and it is not designed to efficiently recover gold larger than approximately 12 mesh. But this shortfall is actually the tremendous strength of the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat. When used at the top of a sluice just past the slick plate but above your nugget trap system the ultra-low turbulence and ultra-fine gold performance of the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat is unparalleled. After or below the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat one should consider installing a larger patterned more conventional Hungarian Riffle system as a nugget and picker trap. Another option would be to install either of the Gold Hog high profile mats or Keene’s Miracle Mat below a two to four foot section of the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat.

3. Commercial Gold Sluices: Similar to the applications of the general purpose sluices described above the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat when used before (above) and in conjunction with your existing riffle designs can significantly increase ultra-fine gold recovery efficiency. However, like any other extruded rubber mat the life expectancy of this mat will directly be determined by your pre-classification efforts. Without adequate slurry classification efforts gravels larger than about 2 mesh can significantly decrease the life-expectancy of the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat to less than one season. But with adequate classification to minus 4 mesh you should hopefully not have to replace your Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat even after many hundreds of hours of operation.

4. Commercial Diamond Sluices: Similar to the applications of the commercial gold sluices described above the Goldfever 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat when used before (above) and in conjunction with your existing riffle designs can significantly increase your recovery efficiencies for your 0.05 carat (2.5 mm) and smaller diamonds. Another benefit is realized when the ratio of non-paying concentrates falls relative to your total diamond recovery. Having more small diamonds and less trash can make the recovery of these smaller than 0.05 carat diamonds highly profitable.

dragline

  
Golddigger
22:40:52 Mon
Oct 15 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Thanks dragline for the explanation of uses and pricing of your Saw-tooth mat,like the pricing of shipping charges to keep the price down. that is one drawback of the Gold Hog matting there shipping charges are to expensive hesitated many times for ordering my Gold Hog mat (placed 2 orders)but needed it for my fine gold recovery.
Sign me up as as a client:welcome:
Keep up the good work:smile:

  
dragline
05:55:01 Tue
Oct 16 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Golddigger,

Thank you for your kind words. As I previously mentioned in my recent posts I am now able to devote perhaps 50% of my time each week on my extruded riffle mat projects (and hopefully that availability will continue).

I've been very blessed over the last 5 years. At the end of 2006 I got laid off as a tooling engineer. After a few months of failing to find a job I started an eBay business in my basement with almost nothing to invest. Five years later I have a debt free business with 30 employees. I've also been fortunate to hire enough good people to help me run my business (almost, but not quite, on autopilot).

I will be designing tooling for an 8-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat and possibly a 2-TPI Mat this week as well, assuming I can get my designs figured out. In this regard I would like to solicit anyone's comments or suggestions here on the Alaska Gold Forum. For the 8-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat I though that I'd basically scale down my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat with the same male and female interlocking features.

My thinking here would be to offer several different extrusions such that the finer featured extrusions could be placed towards the top of the sluice with progressively larger (course) featured extrusions towards the bottom (end) of the sluice. The function of the 2-TPI extrusion would be as a nugget trap riffles. At 2-TPI I should be able to design a pattern capable of efficiently and securely retaining pickers and nuggets up to about 3 mesh (0.265" or 6.7mm).

But for the 2-TPI extrusion I'll want to reduce cross-sectional area as much as possible to reduce the weight of the extrusion per linear foot (minimizing production costs). So a simple Saw-Tooth pattern like I have on the 4-TPI and 8-TPI patterns probably would not be optimal. I also figure that the ultra-fine and fine gold has already been captured in the smaller toothed mats above so I really only need to capture the larger nuggets that are rolling past the 4-TPI pattern. This aspect of a nugget trap design allows for some non-standard design.

In this regard I suppose I wouldn't be limited to a 2-TPI extruded riffle pattern and a larger 2/3, 3/4 or 1 TPI pattern might also serve well just as long as I can keep the extruded weight down low enough for cost effectiveness.

So, what say you? Do any of you have any suggestions on what style extruded riffle design might be most efficient to capture larger pickers and nuggets? I'm thinking I don't need to be too concerned about turbulence at this point because the upper finer extrusions have already recovered anything finer than a large picker.

But I can't help but think that an extruded nugget trap design with turbulent flows would be bad because turbulent pockets where flow is diminished will allow lower density materials (black sands and blond gravels) to fill up those pockets thereby limiting nesting zone volumes for pickers and nuggets. You certainly wouldn't want a lot of turbulent areas to merely fill up with sands and gravels and have the pickers and nuggets roll on down over the top and you also wouldn’t want a lot more non-paying blond sands and gravels in your concentrates.

For this reason I believe it might be advantageous to design the nugget trap riffle geometry in such a way as to maximize laminar flow through the reverse stream of the eddy. With your typical Hungarian Riffle design it isn't practical to design sinusoidal curvatures in this effort. Typically Hungarian Riffles are limited to sharp angular sheet metal bends or the somewhat chaotic geometries of expanded metals. But with extruded EPDM (synthetic rubber) almost any geometry that can be imagined can be digitized, tooled, extruded and produced.

I'll try and experiment (digitally) with a few nugget trap patterns and post them here for your consideration (and amusement perhaps). But in the meantime if you have any thoughts, suggestions or comments please don't hesitate to post your 2˘ here.

dragline

  
dragline
17:32:33 Thu
Oct 18 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Okay, I'm done with the 8-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat design. Let me know if you have any comments or suggested changes. As you can see it is designed to interlock (sort of) with the previous 4-TPI 6 inch wide extruded mat. These male and female joining features don't really interlock but they will nest somewhat. The reason I did not want more complex interlocking features is because it wasn't necessary or even desirable when these are designed to be bonded together with solvent based EPDM bonding adhesive. The resulting bond will be incredible strong anyway and positioning these pieces together during the bonding process will be easier.

Another consideration about these minimal joining features is that they allow me to be much more frugal about my material use. Having smaller and less materially demanding features allow me to economize on material volumes because the functional geometries can be positioned much closer to the substrate thereby reducing the EPDM weights for a given extrusion length at 6 inches.

It is also important for me to keep these adjoining features the same between different extrusion designs so end users can customize their sluice designs with a variety of different patterns each fulfilling specific functions.



Next up on my to-do list is the nugget trap 6 inch extrusion. Since I haven't received any comments or suggestions from anyone here regarding nugget trap design elements I suppose I'll just have to make my best effort.

dragline

  
Golddigger
02:45:02 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Hello Dragline, I am surprised that not more people are helping you with advice in designing your Saw-Tooth Mat :confused:,i wonder if you are on the right forum for this.My advice is to just concentrate your Saw-Tooth Mat for fine and very fine Gold retrieving and make sure that your EPDM rubber mats interlock with the Gold Hog Mat, so they they can be used in combination with the Gold Hog Mat and leave the bigger Gold being trapped by their Mat.I want to use your Saw-Tooth Mat in combination with my Gold Hog mat to catch the realy fine gold. Also by aiming on fine gold retrieving in your design you get the prospecters interested who are into beach mining.
Keep up the good work.
Golddigger

  
overtheedge
04:25:31 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Not too sure on the why of the 8tpi mat. The grooves are less than 1/16" deep. Not much capacity per groove.

Reckon I'm just a fan of the 4tpi.
eric

  
Golddigger
04:58:46 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

hello again dragline,
I am working on a 6 inch cleanup sluice,i wonder if you still have some 4 TPI Saw-Tooth test mat left want to use it in my cleanup sluice in front of the Gold Hog Razorback and compaire it's recovery with the Razorback. I have 4 buckets of cons in my garage waiting and since the weather is getting worse i have more time left.
PS live in Washington State and would not mind paying for cost of the mail.my cleanup sluice will be 36"x 6" going to use 18" Razorback and 18" Saw-Tooth mat.

Golddigger

  
dragline
05:19:06 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Golddigger,

I appreciate your advice. But in regards to your suggestion that I design my saw-tooth mats to interlock with the Gold Hog mats, well, I apologize that I don't believe that would be a good idea. The problem with doing this involves key design features that allow my mat designs to conserve manufacturing costs while providing superior performance. If I were to design my mats to interlock with Gold Hog Mats my manufacturing costs would go up significantly. By interlocking with Gold Hog mats I would also be tacitly endorsing those mats, something I can't do.

There are just too many philosophical and engineering differences between the Gold Hog Mat designer and myself. Just because my mats will not conveniently interface with Gold Hog Mats doesn't mean that someone of average intelligence, a razor knife and some adhesive couldn't get them to go together. I'm sure that could easily be done, but why would anyone want to?

Please understand that I'm not knocking the Gold Hog Mats. They look cool and I'm sure they perform quite well. But that doesn't mean that you couldn't glue a pile of macaroni to the bottom of your sluice and it wouldn't capture gold almost as well Gold Hog's mats. The point is that virtually any geometric pattern that creates sequestering eddies, patterns repeating or random, will captures gold.

You could create just as functional an extruded pattern by reproducing a one millionth scale the Manhattan Skyline, profiles of The Three Stooges or the Battleship Missouri. In fact it seems to me that Gold Hog's Low Turbulence Scrubber mat sort of does resemble the Battleship Missouri now that I think about it!

The point is that designing an EPDM extruded pattern that captures gold is not difficult. However, designing the lowest cost EPDM extrusion that maximizes the efficiency of ultra fine gold recovery while simultaneously
ejecting the greatest possible ratio of non-paying materials, blond and black sands, is a completely different matter.

Again, these extruded geometric patterns are not magic and at the end of the day no amount of marketing BS is going to help you recover more gold with less hassle at cleanup time. Complex and random geometric extruded patters are inefficient and wasteful. As a good friend repeatedly says, "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your BS." Take a look at my competitor's mats and tell me if this saying doesn't fit to a T.

I have completed my third extrusion design specifically engineered to recover up to 1/2 troy ounce nuggets (nugget trap) an illustration of which I'll be posting here soon (perhaps tomorrow). By separating three different functions on three different extruded mats I have used a maximal density of repeating geometric features that perform precisely one function (extremely well) across the entire surface of a six inch wide extrusion.

Separating these functions on different extrusions allows sluice builders to customize their their sluice designs for their specific conditions. By keeping the ultra fine patterns ahead of the progressively coarser patterns the slurry's laminar flow can be minimized over as long a distance as the sluice designer needs to achieve the settling time necessary to capture ultra fine gold at the absolute highest recovery percentages.

Here are those three functions and mats...

1. Ultra fine gold recovery: 8-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat
2. Fine gold recover: 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat
3. Nugget Recovery: 8-Riffle Nugget Trap Mat

My engineering philosophy is to make the most efficient use of proven pattern geometries while maximally conserving extruded materials. I have utilized no confusing, complex or random pattern geometries, just very simple and basic flow control surfaces generating minimal turbulence.

Its not about creating complex structures that perturb flows and generate chaotic turbulence. Good riffle pattern design is about creating smoothly transitioning geometric surfaces with hydrodynamic flow controls for accomplishing very specific goals, capture, sequester and recover.

dragline
[2 edits; Last edit by dragline at 05:21:39 Fri Oct 19 2012]

  
dragline
05:28:30 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Golddigger,

Sure. Check your private messages. I do believe I sent you a message there with my contact information. I do have plenty of 4-TPI Saw-Tooth mat on hand and I'll be happy to send you what you need to conduct your experiments. Please just contact me privately with your email address and mailing address. I'll also need to know the width and length of your sluice. I can cut the mat to any width you specify or I can send you the four foot extrusion lengths and you can cut them.

Thanks for asking!

dragline

  
dragline
06:28:23 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

overtheedge,

I'm glad you asked. The reason why I'm making an 8-TPI Saw-Tooth mat in addition to my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth mat is for capturing a higher percentage of the ultra-fine gold. The 8-TPI Saw-Tooth mat will help minimize turbulence and maintain a more perfect laminar flow in the capture zone above the teeth. I can imagine some applications for extremely fine gold recovery such as milled hard rock ores where I might eventually find a market for a 16-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat. But for now I believe I've hit almost 99% of the available markets with my three pattern designs.

Turbulence is the enemy of ultra fine gold recovery.

Laminar flow and turbulence control is not just about the slurry water. Its about the sand, gravel and cobbles as well. The greater the distance between the tips of the teeth the more energy and bounce that will be translated away from laminar flow. Its sort of like bouncing a ball down the stairs. The momentum and velocity of the slurry drags these larger materials over the ridges of the teeth causing them to bounce back up into the slurry thereby generating random turbulences throughout capture zone of the slurry.

By reducing these bouncy kinetics ultra fine gold will need less time to make it through the capture zone and into the recovery and sequester zones. Once in the recovery zone keeping turbulence to a minimum is an absolute requirement until the ultra fine gold has had time to cycle down through the eddy and reach the sequester zone where the gold can mix with the actively fluidized blond and black sands.

Anyway, here are the three slurry transition zones leading to gold stasis...

1. Capture Zone (also Shear Zone): This is an extremely thin volume of micro eddies just above the tops of the riffles and dipping down between the prominent riffle features in a somewhat sinusoidal wave. The capture zone is demarcated by the somewhat laminar downward flow of the slurry above and the reverse current flows of the major riffle eddies below. All fine and ultra fine gold must pass through this region of opposing flows. The slurry flows above are traveling at a much higher velocity relative to the reverse eddy flows and the more turbulence there is in the main slurry flow the more chaotic the transition will be through this shear zone. The less classification (limiting the maximal slurry particle size) there has been of the slurry the greater the turbulence in the slurry owing to the increased kinetics of the larger gravels and cobbles bouncing off prominent riffle features back upwards into the main stream of the slurry.

2. Recovery Zone: This zone occupies the volume of the major ellipsoidal eddy with reverse current flow beneath the laminar slurry. Ultra fine gold may be kept within this eddy's flow for many cycles just to be kicked back up into the slurry and carried down the sluice and into another eddy or eventually lost. By keeping random eddy turbulence to a minimum ultra fine gold will be less likely to be kicked back upward and more likely to fall down through this major eddy and into the weaker eddies and fluidized zones of the blond and black sands below.

3. Sequester Zone: This zone occupies the volume of the fluidized materials beneath the major eddies. Blond and black sands being less dense than gold will more easily be kicked into and out of these eddy flows. Once kicked out below the eddy's major flow these particles will randomly bounce against each other generating a semi-fluid matrix. Small particles of gold once entering this fluidized zone will quickly fall lower as each random movement opens up another hole and opportunity for the gold to fall further down. Eventually the gold reaches its lowest level in these materials when it either touches down against the hard surface of the sluice or riffle, or it nests safely at a position where random fluidized movement stops and compaction begins. Compaction, sequesterment and stasis of fine and ultra fine gold particles occurs at the point of lowest total energy, the sum of both kinetic and potential energies.

dragline
[3 edits; Last edit by dragline at 16:01:10 Fri Oct 19 2012]

  
overtheedge
19:35:42 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

I agree with all your arguments.

The only problem I see is in the sequestration aspect. According to you diagram of the 8tpi, the zone of sequestration is only 0.061" or just under 1/16". If we consider about half this depth as gold with a thin layer of black sand covering it, we are limited to about 30 mesh gold as the upper size limit of gold adequately buried.

I am of the notion that gold needs just a bit of covering to be shielded from the current.

Another aspect that needs to be considered is water column depth. Thin film works better consistently for recovery. From my experience with heavy rubber v-rib and the limited trials of your 4tpi mat, around 1" of water depth is about right.

More water depth increases the bed turbulence and permits the gold to travel further down the mat, while less requires increasing the slope of the sluice and lengthens the distance before sequestration due to increased turbulence again. There is just a window of where everything just works right. Once the water column reaches a certain depth, you start getting those lateral currents from the sides of the sluice (rooster-tails). These are high turbulence zones and scour the riffles out.

The 8tpi might have a market for clean-up sluices where classification is tight such as you pointed out in milled material. Scavenge the larger material over the 4tpi first, then classify again and run the under-size over the 8tpi.

For 16tpi, the groove depth would be minimal; perhaps 0.030" which would hold gold no larger than about 40-60 mesh and still permit a slight coverage by black sand. Once the classification cut is smaller than about 80-100 mesh, a Miller Table works fine with no riffles; just thin film over a material with a high friction coefficient.

For my purpose, the 4tpi does exactly what I need it to do. Hope the mat business works out for you.
eric

  
dragline
20:35:35 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

overtheedge,

Yes, I can't disagree with any of your comments and observations. The 8-TPI Saw-Tooth mat is probably where I'll call it quits towards the finer patterns and pitches (at least for a while). I hear what you're saying about how the finer 8-TPI Saw-Tooth mat might be set up as a type of miller table. Of course equally interesting things might also happen if you were to set up a 16-TPI or even a 32-TPI Saw-Tooth mat on a shaker table. The physics of vibrating differential friction surfaces might make for some novel and innovative gold concentration applications.

That was sort of the direction I came from when I originally stumbled upon the saw-tooth surface concept and I hope to get back to those experimental designs eventually.

dragline
[1 edits; Last edit by dragline at 20:35:57 Fri Oct 19 2012]

  
dragline
21:43:14 Fri
Oct 19 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Here is my design drawing for my 8 Riffle Nugget Trap Mat. I figure that this dimensional pattern is capable of recovering gold nuggets up to approximately 1/2 troy ounce. Nuggets larger than that have a higher risk of tumbling over the traps and out of the sluice. I suppose that I could make a 4 Riffle Nugget Trap Mat as well but my initial attempts at that design haven't proved very economical. Of course this nugget trap mat is designed to adjoin the other two Saw-Tooth mats if in the case the sluice builder is wanting to processes relatively unclassified materials.

8 Riffle Nugget Trap Mat

  
geowizard
17:27:12 Sat
Oct 20 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

dragline,

It's simple!

The ONLY way folks will SEE gold is if they catch it.

This mat is the last word in "catching gold".

- Geowizard
[1 edits; Last edit by geowizard at 17:31:50 Sat Oct 20 2012]

  
Golddigger
05:29:44 Tue
Oct 23 2012

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Re: Saw-Tooth Mat is called African Pattern Rubber Riffle mat

Hello dragline, Just want to tell you that i send you a private message with the info you wanted.when i checked my PM's i did find any of yours.Thanks again and keep up the good work.:doublethumbsup:
Golddigger

  
dragline
19:23:24 Tue
Oct 23 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

Here is the production drawing for the largest pattern extruded riffle mat that I plan on designing (at this time, anyway). I looks remarkably similar to your typical Hungarian riffle design and I suppose I intended it be that way. I tried to balance performance with production costs in a way that performance wasn’t negatively impacted. The main challenges in designing a more traditional riffle pattern as an EPDM extrusion involves keeping material costs low while maintaining performance, durability and stackability.

While there is nothing revolutionary about this design but you must consider its intended purpose as a nugget trap not as a high efficiency fine or ultra-fine gold riffle design. The premise I’m going with here is that my 4-TPI and 8-TPI Saw-Tooth pattern mats are completely capable of ultra-high efficiency and performance in recovering fine and ultra-fine gold. My nugget trap patterned mats are specifically designed to capture nuggets and should be positioned just after (downstream) from the finer Saw-Tooth Mats.



Sometime soon I’ll create an illustration of my four designs in series so you can see how the finer Saw-Tooth patterns a located after the slick plate followed by the nugget traps.

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cubsqueal
22:41:39 Tue
Oct 23 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat


It will be interesting to find out how the 4 designs in series work out.

Some years ago I bought a Keene A52 sluice from a friend. I've always wondered how it could catch very small gold and be run for decent-sized nuggets at the same time. I've always been curious about the abilities of so many of the earlier sluice designs that just plain look like huge compromises.

Maybe these multiple designs will finally be at least a part of the answer, and we hope, the final answer.

  
dragline
01:18:01 Wed
Oct 24 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

cubsqueal,

I'm pretty sure that there is no magic bullet when it comes to recovering all sizes of gold in one pass, i.e. you probably could not design one sluice approaching 100% recovery of ultra-fine gold and at the same time capture the occasional 10 ounce troy nugget that passes by.

The problem is that if you're not classifying your ore to some maximal screen size you're going to have to keep boulders the size of a microwave oven moving down your sluice quickly without disturbing the ultra-fine gold already captured.

You could imagine the impact a large cobble or boulder would have on what ideally should be a uniform laminar flow of the slurry down the sluice. Not every gold miner has the money to invest in classification equipment that limits their ore to a size smaller than the input diameter on their suction dredge nozzle.

In my opinion the key to a optimally efficient gold recovery system is flexibility. If you don't have appreciable ultra-fine minus 100 mesh gold to worry about then you wouldn't need my 8-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat. On the other hand if you didn't have much in the way of pickers and nuggets to worry about you probably wouldn't need more than a 6 inch section of my 8-Riffle Nugget Trap Mat at the bottom of a 3-1/2 foot run of my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat. If your worried about losing the occasional monster 1 to 2 ounce nugget you would probably want a 4-Riffle Nugget Trap Mat at the bottom of your sluice.

Sure, talk is talk and gold isn't gold unless you see it in your vials at the end of the day. Designing an optimally efficient sluice for any specific input conditions isn't magic, although a lot of equipment manufacturers would like you to think it is. The more complex and magical a sluice or riffle design seems the more likely it is merely magical marketing and thinking one miner mining other miners.

More extrusion designs coming soon...

Stay safe.

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dragline
19:26:55 Tue
Nov 6 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

Here is my latest design for a 8 Riffle Nugget Trap Mat. I had to retire some of my earlier attempts previously posted in this tread because after bouncing back and forth between the larger and smaller scale riffles I realized that I had to have a scalable design with optimal performance under all possible operating conditions. For these reasons I included saw-teeth in the retention area of the riffles to improve fine gold performance if in the case someone wanted to use these larger scale riffle mats as their only sluice riffles.



As you can see in this 8-Riffle Mat, there are a lot of dimensional requirements to fabricate tooling for such complex features. Adding the saw-teeth to the retention areas of the riffles will definitely improve fine gold performance, although actually utilizing these features as active areas might be somewhat reduced depending upon operating conditions (faster flows increase active area but reduce fine gold recovery). There are a great number of complex features and design parameters that must be balanced for optimal performance and economy after considering tooling and fabrication costs.

How small I can push this pattern I'm not completely sure. This 8-Riffle Mat (1-1/3 TPI) might be about it as far as that goes, although I haven't attempted a 1-TPI design yet and I might want to see if that can be contained within tooling limits. If I can get the 1-TPI (that's a 12-Riffle Mat) design to work I'll probably retire this 8-TPI Riffle design. The problem is that the smaller and more delicate the features the less likely I'll be able to get extrusion uniformity across the full width of the mat during manufacture. Thin features can wear out faster reducing mat life span relative to more thicker features. Thin features also decrease the dimensional stability of the pattern when stacking a few thousand pounds of material per pallet during freight transport.

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baub
03:31:40 Wed
Nov 7 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

If this works as good as it looks, it could be a winner.

  
dickb
18:14:14 Wed
Nov 7 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

I think the saw tooth pattern should be reversed on the up slope portion if the riffle. Gravity may cause the fines to drop out of the trap. The vortex is reverse flow in the down stream side if the riffle.

I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Dickb

  
dragline
02:54:15 Thu
Nov 8 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

Dick B,

Good catch on your observation concerning those reversed saw-tooth riffles in my most recent 8-Riffle Nugget Trap Mat design (above). I had initially laid this pattern out as you suggest but the more I played around with the hydrodynamic kinetics of these designs the more I came to the inescapable conclusion that an opposite orientation would prove to be more productive.

Just try imagining you are a 200 mesh (88 μm) flaky piece of gold. You are trying your best to kite along with the laminar flow of the main slurry but a turbulent eddy from a primary Hungarian riffle grabs you and cycles you around in a circle a few times. Each time you circle around you randomly interact with other smaller eddies (generated by the minor saw-teeth). You might catch one of these eddies and settle down for a time or you might randomly decide to hitch a ride back with the main laminar flow.

I can't do much of anything to prevent a pesky little 200 mesh flake of gold from bouncing out of a main riffle eddy and back up into the main laminar flow. Its just going to happen almost 80% of the time. But its the 20% capture rate (just an estimate for illustration purposes only) that is important. If I can pack riffles and eddies densely enough I can increase the capture efficiency for a given length of the sluice. That's why I put as many primary and secondary eddies as possible along the course of that pesky 200 mesh gold particle thereby increasing the probability of capture for a given sluice length.

Ask yourself a question. Why aren't Hungarian riffles turned around 180° to their usual orientation? Answer: Because if you did that they would pack up more easily with worthless concentrate and they would also create more turbulent flow projecting upward into and disturbing the laminar flow above reducing fine gold recoveries.

Here's another question. How fast is the primary eddy opposite flow relative to the main slurry above? Answer: Not very fast. In fact its many times slower. Therefore, these secondary saw-tooth riffles are not well supplied with a fast laminar eddy flow. Such secondary flows are far more chaotic owning to many random factors including larger slurry particles and resonances (sinusoidal kinetics).

The more micro-turbulence I can generate in these secondary capture zones the more likely that a 200 mesh particle of gold will find its way into the fluid bed of the blond and mineralized sands and settle downward.

I realize all of my ramblings about counter-intuitive design relative to conventional riffle patters might seem a little (or a lot) nonsensical, but this is my interpretation of these complex dynamics and I invite anyone to prove me wrong with a better design. Since there is nothing magic about what I'm doing and since I certainly am not perfect I am confident that a better design than mine exists.

Its just that for the time being I have plans to push this design and these geometries in directions not previously discussed or disclosed (novel). But those designs and explanations are a ways away and for the time being I have 2 or 3 more mats to design before I move on to that project.

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dickb
17:52:31 Thu
Nov 8 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

Well so far I like what you have designed and until a prototype is run and tested, it's all just design. In any case even if gravity is causing the fines to drop out of the saw teeth, the gold should work it's way deeper into the bottom of the mat. I don't expect it to be recaught in the flow and transported out of the holding area. So if what you say turns out to be fact, maybe a small trap at the apex of the ramp might be a positive area to retain the small fines that work their way down the slope.
By the way, I'm just thinking out loud here. The more input you consider the better the end result, MAYBE. :confused:

Dickb

  
dragline
02:01:10 Sat
Nov 10 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

Dick B,

Yes. You got it in a nut shell. Consider that sluices typically drop downward with the flow at between 10° and 20° and gold captured close the the downstream end of Hungarian riffles is significantly more vulnerable to rogue turbulence. Large jets of random turbulence will sweep deep into these riffles as larger cobbles bounce their way down and the higher velocity slurry impacts these slower moving cobbles. The reversely configured saw-teeth will reduce the chances that gold previously captured and settled into a stable positions will be blasted back out and into the main slurry again. And, as you say, the saw-teeth orientation will tend to keep the flow of gold directed towards increasingly safer positions.

draline

  
dragline
23:43:12 Wed
Nov 14 2012

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Re: Extruded EPDM Saw-Tooth Mat

Here is my updated price-list and shipping costs for my 4-TPI Saw-Tooth Mat. I just did an inventory and determined that I have precisely 244 square feet remaining. I've got another production order in the works but we could be a few weeks away from delivery.



When I start sales on eBay and my website I'll offer the full 48 inch lengths for sale as you see in the above table but I'll also offer cut lengths starting at 4 inches and up to 12 inches. The price will be the same per square foot for cut vs. uncut, but the shipping costs can occasionally be less for the cut pieces because I can compact and stack a lot of cut lengths a lot more efficiently than I can roll four foot sections.

I'll try to get the price-list table for all available cut-lengths posted here soon. My eBay and website sales may be a week or two away, however. As you can also see from the price-list table above I do my best to offer the most economical shipping possible internationally, so please feel free to email or PM me if you have any questions.

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