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thegoldgopher
17:27:57 Sat
May 5 2012

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Some questions

I'm ready to build a prototype of my invention. I would like to ask some questions about the equipment used in Nome. I would expect that anything and everything is used, but is there any commonly used things like:

Hose connectors - are cam locks used, or just thread on, or hose clamps?

What size water pumps are most commonly used to power recreational dredges?

What size outlets do they use most commonly?

What size air compressors are used for non-diver air supply?

Is everything connected together, of are many quick connects used?

I know there is a 6" limit on intakes for rec diving. Do most people use that big, or do they use smaller ones for smaller operations?

Is there a davit crane, or like a truck boom crane on most dredges to assist raising machinery from the water?

Are many barges built with small cranes, stiff legs, or extending arm lifts?

Or is if just a mix of what you got, and what you can get?

Thanks, guys. I go to the patent attorney next week to kick this off.

can be reached at thegoldgopher@gmail.com
Steve

  
MadJack
20:55:35 Sat
May 5 2012

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Re: Some questions

Must have got a bunch of FREE MONEY from the government to invent "IT".


:confused:
sorry, the devil made me do it...



---
MadJack_ME

 
 
thegoldgopher
02:38:52 Sun
May 6 2012

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Re: Some questions

Funny you should ask. My grant writer is working on it as we speak ...........

  
AK_Au_diver
05:09:18 Sun
May 6 2012

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Re: Some questions

Your questions sound like the type that need to be asked during the design phase, not the building phase.

This sounds exactly like a half dozen other operations that I've seen tried and fail over the years.

I don't think I can answer your questions any better than to say: Yes, sometimes, maybe, No. Not necessarily in that order or frequency.

Sorry to be so cryptic.

  
thegoldgopher
15:08:26 Sun
May 6 2012

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Re: Some questions

Just wondering about some of the most common sizes in things so that I can outfit the prototypes with fittings that will mate with existing gear.

  
InspectorTom
00:25:28 Mon
May 7 2012

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Me &amp; Tank Klamath 200
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Re: Some questions

goldgopher,
I sincerely hope you are successful in your endeavor but I must ask this question...Are you in Nome or going to Nome to recreate or seriously mine for a profit?

"What size water pumps are most commonly used to power recreationaldredges?"

I cringe when miners refer to our industry as "recreational"!

  
kevyluvu
03:50:57 Mon
May 7 2012

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Re: Some questions

Whatever you build make sure it hase 8 anchors and a sluice box made of wood.

  
AK_Au_diver
03:53:26 Mon
May 7 2012

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Re: Some questions

Gopher, Go look at the Keene website for their 6 and 8 inch dredges and dredge pumps. Most all the other manufacturers use similar sized stuff. The way things work, and the rate things break, it doesn't matter much what people currently use, other than the pumps. Everything else seems to wear out quite fast.

Tom, gopher is referencing the State regs about Nome that designate two small Recreational areas. Dredges that meet the size and hp limitations are designated as Recreational, this is not any indication as to how much they make, which for the vast majority is not much.

  
thegoldgopher
00:21:03 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

Not sure about protocol here, but hope I am answering kevyluu's question about my intentions to go to Nome, or what.

My intentions are to R&D an idea I have about a new way to suck up gold from the ocean floor. I cannot go into details. If it works, and is patentable, I would not hesitate to say that you will see it a lot in the future. The way things work, that could be 2013, 2014, or whatever. If it is a good workable idea, it will be just as good then as if I make this season, which is doubtful. If it works, I would set up a shop here in the US to make them, and a shop in Nome for sales and service. Or just sell the patent, and slip further into retirement.

The device would simplfy the effort of dredging for a diver, and make it able for someone with a small pontoon or boat to have a davit or knuckleboom crane, and use the thing from the surface, not having to have a diver. It will (hopefully) penetrate the ocean floor in sandy and lightly gravelly and rocky places so that subsurface gold can be got. The stuff that's been sinking now for 15,000 years. The stuff that it takes a whole day to move now with the current vacuum cleaner system.

The device is simple, using a water pump, and an air compressor. It can be used with a diver or very light surface crane. I will be buying the components soon, and testing in local ponds, streams, etc, anywhere there is dirt underwater. The device has ONE moving part, if you don't call 90 degree valves moving parts. It will weigh from 75 # up depending on the use. Underwater flotation using empty sealed propane bottles will assist moving, and surface operations will have controllable air ballast system.

I was a commercial diver for the man who founded Offshore Pipelines, Inc, one of the world's largest ocean pipeline burying companies in the world during the development of their systems. I do know a little of which I speak, and have experience with underwater excavation at a high level, a lot of hard hat decompression chamber diving, and years of living on bad food, little sleep, cold weather, bad seas, well, you know..

Right now, I'm retired. I am 63, and if I live till June 19th, will celebrate 10 years after a 8.5 hour 5 way bypass and mechanical aortic valve replacement. I can still do a lot, but don't think I'd last long in the cold and demanding work conditions in Nome. And I don't want to. My big adventure was six years of hard extreme work commercial diving, so I know cold water, hypothermia, the bends, being USCG life flighted, and all the bumps and bruises and crap of living on the edge. I do have a welding shop, and am just trying to hook up with a couple of people who will test my idea, and see if it works. Maybe support from this end on emergency fab, or sending a package of Snickers, barbecue sauce, and Red Man every month. I have an easy life, a good income, union retirement, insurance, get to travel the world, and am not out to make my first million. For me, this is just another adventure borne of watching clowns on TV do some pretty funny stuff underwater and knowing I could do a little better. And wanting to help them do better.

Right now, I'm going through some patent stages, and R&D. I have sent a description to a retired friend of mine in Cal. who used to work for NASA, and he will evaluate, and critique at the end of the month when he comes back from traveling.

I do see a trip to Nome on the event horizon, to see the situation first hand and ask some questions. Maybe meet some contacts. It seems difficult to establish communications here or elsewhere with anyone who will talk to me reasonably about it. It seems if you aren't tough enough to go up there and sleep on the beach and do the whole deal you're not entitled to be in the club. Whatever. I never liked those clicky club things anyway.

I have made contact with one of the people who was on Bering Sea Gold last season, and he is interested in testing one. Negotiations are going on with the producers on whether or not to allow the episode, or to give the name of the product on the show. Hollywood stuff moves very slow, and like Nome, if you are not there every day to keep it moving, it moves at a slug's pace.

Hope that explains my motives and my requests for general information. Mainly, I just need someone who is civil, and who will communicate with me so I can make a better product, and hopefully get them more gold in a season. And everyone who uses this, if it works. I do believe there has been advances and inventions and things since gold mining started that have improved performance and yield, and that those men, inventors, whatever, do have some prominence in the field as well as the ones who went out into the cold harsh conditions and lived them. As I recall, assayers and geologists were held in pretty high regard, yet they always seemed to live just a little cozier than the miners. Were they as tough? Who cares? They were an important link in the whole chain.

I am not selling snake oil, nor an untested product. I have asked for nothing more here than information. I want to work on this idea, see if it works under test conditions, put it out to work and see if it works in the field, and then go from there.

It's that simple. HTH. Work safe and get lots of gold.

thegoldgopher@gmail.com

  
AK_Au_diver
05:18:05 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

That design sounds basically like several other failed designs that have been tried over the years.

There has never, ever, been a successful novel operation that was designed by someone that has not actually been to Nome and really taken the time to understand where the gold is and how to get it.

There were only five non diver operation in Nome last year. It's doubtful that two of them will try again this year. Two of them were designed by people with hundreds if not thousands of hours of diver operated nozzle time. All of them took years to become profitable.

With that said, I'm still curious to see your design. Is neat to see what people come up with, and there is always the chance that your idea could work.

  
overtheedge
06:37:46 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

gopher dude,
I was gonna put you on ignore but watching you pursue this course is painful. As I tend to be a bit blunt, perhaps it is my duty to explain some things.

Let's begin with this:
"Mainly, I just need someone who is civil, and who will communicate with me so I can make a better product, and hopefully get them more gold in a season."

By and large, we are a civil bunch. We freely tell others our successes and failures. We share our designs; the good, the not so good and often our complete "What was I thinking?".

So in the case of you, what is the common thread? You have come across that we are the same bunch as the actors on TV. Yes, they are actors on a scripted so-called reality show. Not much different than "The Simpsons" with real people.

You sent a message that we are no different from them. Yet you have no experience in this field at all. Most of us have a strong background in the sciences, technology and several years to several decades of experience. We study geology, hydrology, physics and yes, some of us study metallurgy of gold including chemistry. We read reports from studies done by the various universities and governmental agencies. We spend countless days in research during the off-season.

We have had to sift through piles of nonsense written by authors that had no experience. Many of us have built our own equipment just to be more efficient. We know gold and how/why it is deposited where it is. And we have to find gold or run to Anchorage, Fairbanks or where ever to get a 9-5 with hopefully some overtime available to get through another winter.

Yes, we all have holes in our knowledge base. But we help one another. We don't get paid for this. It is just our nature to help. Perhaps the problem is in your presentation.

Then there is this:
"It will (hopefully) penetrate the ocean floor in sandy and lightly gravelly and rocky places so that subsurface gold can be got. The stuff that's been sinking now for 15,000 years. The stuff that it takes a whole day to move now with the current vacuum cleaner system."

Again you demonstrate your lack of knowledge about gold deposition. Gold doesn't settle through anything unless something dilates the bed. It settles and sits there. Anything that moves marble sized rocks also moves sand size gold. Then the vacuum concept is just an analogy. There is no vacuum. It is all about the incompressibility of water and atmospheric pressure. The pump slings away water and water doesn't compress or decompress, so make-up water rushes in to take the place and drags material with it. If you develop a vacuum in the pump, pump goes to pieces from cavitation.

Now it sounds like what you are describing as your potential patent is a high velocity water jet to excavate with an air-lift pump. It is old technology and might, emphasis might, be applicable for those who have leases over the submarine beaches. Most everything has been tried and the successful operators have essentially the same basic designs. Why? Because it is proven to be the most efficient.

Oh yes, we still have our opinions and many are right under certain conditions, but there is no one size fits all. You demeaned the folks with glorified rafts dredging offshore and called for more government oversight. These folks know the risks, but they are using what they can afford. Do you really think they are just skinflints? They're just trying to make a living.

I'm a bit embarrassed to be explaining these things to someone my age. Imagine when you were the old man on the crew and some newbie with no experience showed up and sets out to set you straight. This is how you came across to me.

No, I don't dredge in Nome. I understand the deposition model and what it takes to get the gold. It just doesn't appeal to me enough to attempt it. Afford it? Uh, not unless I get really really lucky. And yes, there is a luck component to this too. Just like real estate, location, location, location. It gives a whole new meaning to missed by that much (thumb and forefinger a quarter inch apart). I'm 61YO and been at this off and on since the mid 60's as a teen. Been pursuing the adventure every season for the last 10-12 years and I still have a lot to learn.

A lesson that I haven't fully embraced is "It is better to keep your mouth shut and let folks think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." At my age, I just don't care anymore. For the right money, I'll play the fool on a TV pseudo-reality gold mining show. I'm a capitalist and it is just acting.

Hope this helps you understand from my point of view. Can't and won't speak for others. Good luck with your invention. Keep in mind the prior art aspect includes what was written about in magazines, trade journals, university studies and web postings. Yes sir, many of us have some knowledge of the patent process too. It is just a natural outgrowth of the designing and building we are so fond of doing. The grumpiness just comes because it ain't happening fast enough or maybe we just ran out of India Pale Ale.

Oughta be real grumpy myself. Been snowing off and on all day and my dredging permit season starts the 15th. Just another day in paradise, so I'd better pack a sack lunch cause it's gonna be another long day.
eric

  
MadJack
09:45:49 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

Thank you Eric! You have spoken well for some [maybe most] of us.

"For the right money, I'll play the fool on a TV pseudo-reality gold mining show. I'm a capitalist and it is just acting."

Funny you mention this... I recently guided a day trip for a film crew which turned into a second, then a third day. After day three they wanted me on/in whatever show they were doing. I told them that if their pockets are deep enough they could have me! [evil grin]



---
MadJack_ME

 
 
thegoldgopher
13:57:16 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

Then there's this:

http://www.dggs.alaska.gov/webpubs/usgs/p/text/p0759a.PDF

It seems as though there are mentions of gold being deposited at different geological times, and wave action causing it to settle into the seabed floor. If it did not settle into the seabed floor, why is it found so concentrated on top of bedrock, both offshore and in creeks? It seems at 19.3, it would work its way down by many actions. I can see that the better part of you are decent fellows, and then there's the rest. And then, as someone mentioned, there are the actual gold miners who are out there, and not at home sitting around pounding their errrrr.......... keyboards.


  
MadJack
18:25:07 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

USGS = a government agency with extremely GENERAL information.

Miner = someone [in most cases here] who sticks their head in the water and actually FINDS gold!

"Those who can't........ teach."



---
MadJack_ME

 
 
overtheedge
20:27:36 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

Yes, the gold settles to the sea floor. One of the things most overlooked by those not intimately involved in geology is the time element. Nothing is static. Additional sediments accumulate over what has already settled out. This is the burying aspect.

Heavy minerals will only settle deeper if there is enough energy within the sediment column to dilate the bed. No dilation, no further settling.

Over the decades, many books have been written by folks unfamiliar with the actual physics of erosion, transport and deposition. These are the principles that affect where gold is concentrated. The only way gold gets to bedrock or clay layer is by high energy systems such as 20, 50, 100+ year floods. These floods effectively scour out the stream-bed and because water velocity is minimal along the water/bed interface, differential settling by SG and size creates the environment for heavy minerals to accumulate on the impervious layer.

In beach systems, one thing that is overlooked by those who don't work within these systems is the severe storm issue. Wave energy is just as deep as it is high in relationship to the wave troughs. Hence the excitement to get working after a severe storm. The shallow sea-bed and beach material has been eroded, transported and redeposited with attendant enrichment in favorable localities.

Yes I know that many of the authors are successful. Success is not proof of bad science but rather evidence of shear determination. Good science and determination keeps me in beans with occasional short periods of being flush.

The stream/ocean bed must be dilated for anything to settle any deeper than the very shallow active layer. Depending on the bed material and energy, this active layer is usually measured in fractions of an inch to a few inches.

In the case of fine/flood gold, the physics has a wild card aspect. This is energy versus particle mass. Fine/flour gold has low mass and the energy within the system prevents the heavy minerals with low mass from settling except in sudden high to low energy transition zones. Hence the enrichment on the head of skim bars. Because of fluctuating water depths (and attendant energy within the system), these enrichments can and do form layers within the stream-bed sediment column in low energy locations. Severe flooding scours these layers out and redeposits them downstream.

With time, good science drives out junk science. New ideas win out, not by force of argument but, by outliving its detractors. Unfortunately dogma hangs tough within our educational system. I attribute part of this to the "publish or perish" professor retention system in our universities. No professor will permit their published material to be discredited. To do so will call into question their qualifications to work within the system. Few have any other employment possibilities.

Hence as MadJack commented, "Those who can't........ teach." Many of us willingly share; teachers get paid.

Sure hope I'm considered "and then there's the rest." As some famous person once said, "Diplomacy is to do and say the nastiest things in the nicest way." I prefer to be brutally frank. It prevents misunderstandings. I ain't always right the first time, but I attempt to never make the same mistake twice. And yes, my presentation technique often rubs folks the wrong way and can create animosity in inter-personal relationships. Oh well. I don't have an attitude problem. It is other folks that have a problem with my attitude. I don't fix other folk's problem without getting paid.

Hope this helps.
eric

  
dickb
22:14:27 Wed
May 9 2012

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Re: Some questions

Are we clear now? CRYSTAL :smile:

  
thegoldgopher
03:40:03 Thu
May 10 2012

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Re: Some questions

I thank all of you. By your responses, I can tell that you do not have a clue what I am up to, nor what my patent is really all about, and the principles if functions on. My idea is safe. Your assessments and critiques cite physics principles that are nowhere near what I am investigating. You reinforce my effort, and the idea that this is truly an idea that has not been explored before.

You cannot even read a study by professionals and understand it. Anyone who thinks that gold stays put over time is a Flat World theorist.

The first $2500 of the patent money is just that. Investigating whether or not this is patented, or the idea has been explored. If it hasn't, I can tell just from this forum that there is no clue as to the application I want to try. And that the field is virgin. Thank you ever so much for that input. If I have gotten anything from this motley crew, that alone has been priceless.

This is entertaining, becoming downright fun. At least I know no one is on to my idea, or even has a clue, and if it clears the first few hurdles with the patent attorney, I could be up to something big.

In the meantime, keep it up out there with the gold pans and sluices and rock hammers.

ROTFLMAO!

  
MadJack
12:34:21 Thu
May 10 2012

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Re: Some questions

You can tell it's May, all the nubies are in here telling Miners & Prospectors "how to"....

Another week and I'll be in the water, once again moving rocks and boulders here in Maine. Good luck out there guys!



---
MadJack_ME

 
 

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