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kaveman
06:43:01 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

I don't know. I skimmed the paper you posted,

http://emrlibrary.gov.yk.ca/ygs/YMIP_YEIP/1994/94-019.pdf

and it didn't look too encouraging to me. Thin layer of fine gold under a bunch of muck, lying on top a bunch more valueless gravel, with bedrock 100 feet below. I understand you like skimming the clean bars, but that method didn't appear to be practical where they did their testing due to the overburden. Also noted several questionable calculations in the report with this one glaring miscalculation at the end,........

"VOLUME OF EXCAVATIONS

There are 11 pits dug by excavator which are an average of 20' in diameter and 16 feet deep, or 242 cubic yards each.

11 x 242 = 2,662 cubic yds"

Except 20' dia x 16' depth gives,

(3.14 x 10 x 10 x 16) / 27 = 186yd each.

186 x 11 = 2046yds


If their simple calculations are off by 30%, you kinda gotta wonder about the rest.

  
LipCa
06:52:54 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Looks like they divided by 20.7, not 27....

Nobody checked their math:smile:

  
overtheedge
08:11:05 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Nice cylindrical holes dug by an excavator 20 feet in diameter all the way down to 16 feet.

It ain't just a math error.
eric

  
kaveman
15:18:48 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Quote: LipCa at 06:52:54 Wed Nov 28 2012

Looks like they divided by 20.7, not 27....

Nobody checked their math:smile:


What'a ya mean? I thought we just did.

[1 edits; Last edit by kaveman at 15:21:25 Wed Nov 28 2012]

  
kaveman
15:58:26 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Quote: overtheedge at 08:11:05 Wed Nov 28 2012

Nice cylindrical holes dug by an excavator 20 feet in diameter all the way down to 16 feet.

It ain't just a math error.
eric


And perhaps they used the 240" auger on the excavator and just failed to mention it.

That's what first caused me to 'do the math'. I've been digging test pits with the ex(rectangular ones btw), roughly 6'w x 15'l x 16'd and I was wagging them @50yd each. I just couldn't imagine 242 cubic yards coming out of a 16 foot deep test pit. And then to take a pan sample out of all of that?!? Normally we'll screen 5 buckets from the pay layer and run it over the highbanker, but occasionally we'll roll in the washplant and take a 10-20yd sample.

One of the nice things about a bulk sample like that is that it can actually pay for itself. Last bulk sample we dug logged 2hrs on the hoe digging, feeding, backfilling the hole, but it paid 3/4oz. It's also easier and quicker to dig a 16' deep pit with a hoe as compared to a shovel,...........not to mention the fact that I don't even like to BE at the bottom of a pit like that.

More nice things,.........if it takes you an hour to dig, set aside your sample, and backfill your hole, you're much less likely to be tempted to leave those holes open. I hate the thought of leaving open testpits on the ground. We've once or twice left one open overnite to see how the groundwater would fill or whatever, but I've always left the bucket and boom down in the pit so it's not quite so dangerous. (I know; if the ground had caved we'd have had a good time digging it back out) Something tells me that when you spend a week hand-digging a pit, you're sorely tempted to NOT cover that work back in, even if you had a dozer to do the work. The thought of re-digging that pit to verify some info is just too much to bear. I've had to re-dig a pit or two, but all it meant was an hour in the seat and a few gallons of diesel,............small price to pay to keep a safe work area.

Oh, another nice thing(geeze, the excavator is indispensable,........). We occasionally have done a 'complete' bulk sample, running the top 40yds across the washplant separate from the pay layer and doing a cleanup to verify that we're not missing a layer further up in the material. Even those test have more or less paid for themselves at 1gr/yd. Not really worth mining, but worth proving that it's not worth mining!

Sorry, this should probably be it's own thread,.............

  
LipCa
16:26:57 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Kave... I meant nobody that did the origional calcs checked it. I know you did:smile:

OTE... using 20.7 calcs to 242.7 cy. I think it was a math error in the calcs. But, you're right, 20' dia. cylindical holes dug with an excavator? be easier to dig rectangular or square holes to get the bottom sections clean.

  
geowizard
16:43:51 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

What really happened?

Be careful... :smile:

Look at map 3. The hand dug holes are round holes. There are 15 hand dug holes 20' in diameter and 16 feet deep!

Hand dug holes volumetric calculation:

20' diameter/2 = 10' radius. (still with me?)

Remember pie are squared?

Radius exp 2 = 100 (did it in my head):welcome:

pie = 3.14159 from High School...

Hand dug hole volume = 3.14159 x 100 = 314.159 x 16 ft deep = 5026.544/27 = 186.168 cubic yards per hole x 15 holes = 2792.52 (approx) cubic yards.

Excavator dug volumetric calculation:

volume = 3' x 5' x 8' = 120/27 = 4.44 cubic yards per hole.

Total volume of excavator dug holes = 4.44 x 11 holes = 48.84 cubic yards.

- Geowizard
[3 edits; Last edit by geowizard at 16:55:07 Wed Nov 28 2012]

  
Jim_Alaska
16:54:19 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Hey Wiz, I not good at math at all, but one thing I do know. You said: "Remember pie are squared?"

The one thing I know is that pie are round.



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geowizard
17:00:48 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Jim,

You are so correct! I am reminded... again! :smile:

The academic part of placer mining represents a good test for us all. (note: It took me four tries and ote hasn't checked my answers)

Thanks!

[1 edits; Last edit by geowizard at 17:06:21 Wed Nov 28 2012]

  
molecule_counter
17:38:33 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Jim, you are correct. Pie are round, cornbread are square.

  
hoppingforpay
18:41:16 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

What I was thinking but I haven't looked into it again was that the gold was less than -80 mesh yet one color was worth .21 of a cent that doesn't seem right to me either...


Long time ago when I was reading books on the early prospectors in the North I came across some that mentioned the Stewart. It was the first place the early prospectors worked in the Yukon before the 40mile. Some of the books mentioned some good finds.

Their is a guy in Eagle who did some highbanking on the Stewart and says he did well. He also mentioned some guy who told him not to stop and mine till he found atleast 50 colors...

Leslie Chapman and Bill Claxton who worked on this report use a New Zealand dredge on the 40mile. I was their nearest neighbor for many years but I haven't met them.

I am thinking maybe they may have changed numbers on purpose?

Has anyone checked the map for this area for whats missing...

Seems to me if you go big it doesn't look too good but if you go small, don't dig too deep and stay away from the muck covered ground it looks good to me.Perhaps the McQueston also.

Here is a story of of a couple starting as mushroom pickers and making it a long way into the prospecting business using the government grant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/magazine/mag-15Gold-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  
hoppingforpay
19:18:25 Wed
Nov 28 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Look at this! New rich ground found in the Yukon fairly recently.

Remember:

.01 = 100 yds to the ounce or 5 grns a yd

.025 = 40yds to the ounce or 12 grns a yd

.05 = 20 yds to the ounce or 1 pennyweight a yd

.1 = 10 yds to the ounce or 2 pennyweight a yd


A prospector can find new ground, it just takes a ton of effort and a belief that it is there.

http://yma.gov.yk.ca/120156.pdf

P.S. Stewart report update. 486 grns to the ounce!!!????????

  
Scrub
16:07:53 Thu
Nov 29 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Jim_Alaska, Our pies are no longer round. We've eaten a good bit, creating other geometric patterns. Our pecan's almost gone & our pumpkin pie is still golden. I hope everyone elso out there in Alaska Gold Forum is, too! (Golden)

Grins,
Scrub

  
overtheedge
18:27:41 Thu
Nov 29 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

geowizard, your math is close enough for gov't work. I mean crikey, they accepted this piece of fairy tale nonsense.
------------------
page 2: 14 pits hand-dug 5-11' deep
page 3: 11 pits excavator dug 8x12' and 8-22' deep

page 3: gunpowder scale that measures to 0.01 grains
Powder scales measure to 0.1 grains

page 4: -80 mesh and 21 cents per particle Canadian at $380 and exchange rate of 0.72

page 15: hand dug holes 56 yards total
excavator dug 20'dia x 16'deep for total of 2662 yards.
-------------------------------
Now you know why Canada requires NI43-101.

Calculated weight of 80 mesh gold sphere with CSF=1.0 is about 60 micrograms or 518,000 per ounce. At the above price and exchange rate this equals 0.05 cents Canadian per particle. Lest anyone misread this, it is 1/20th of a penny. Or 1/400th of what stated on page 4.

Calculations based upon MIRL #76. With 50 mesh CSF=1.0 weighs 269 micrograms and 100 mesh CSF=1.0 weighing 31 micrograms. 100/80=1.25 ergo 80 mesh is 1.25^3 times the mass of 100 mesh (2X).

How did the pits dug by excavator on page 3 morph into what is stated on page 15?
_____________________
This is not a math mistake. Mark Twain called it right.
eric

  
hoppingforpay
23:47:40 Thu
Nov 29 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Anyone can ask whats up with that report through here:

http://www.dulacmining.com/claims-for-sale-lease/40-mile-placers---new

If you take a gander at my last links a person should if he wants a shot at some ground be loading up for a tough trip...yer welcome.

  
kaveman
02:47:26 Sat
Dec 1 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

I think the report states that the -80 mesh partical is worth 0.21 cents, or five to a pennyC at the then current rate of exchange. Not quite so bad.

Yeah, I saw the reloading scale measuring to 0.01gr and lumped that in with the many other errors. I mean,............what's a decimal place amoungst friends?

  
overtheedge
05:23:40 Sat
Dec 1 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine


Quote:

Lest anyone misread this, it is 1/20th of a penny. Or 1/400th of what stated on page 4.


Well don't I look the fool? I misread .21ąC as 21ąC . For lack of a 0 (zero) ahead of the decimal point.

Their figures on the value of -80 mesh are off by 4X. Well, 4X for just the 80 mesh; even more for 100, 150, etc.

Yukon T. reimbursed for this report.
eric

  
Scrub
12:11:56 Sat
Dec 1 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

I'm back again with another question. Does anyone "out there" know who to contact to request a permit from Hungwitchin? I wrote the purported President, April Frank, (or as I was told by a Lands Specialist in Fairbanks) in early Sept & haven't heard a word. Doyon will take my money for a minerals permit, but says I will also need a for surface from Hungwitchin. Tough to do with no response.

And to Jim_Alaska,
I've stated before "pie are neither square nor round". At the time, is was a quarter of a pie (pumpkin & pecan) but now they're GONE!

/s/Scrub

  
kaveman
15:56:13 Sat
Dec 1 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

I'll bet that floating decimal point has killed more ventures than it has saved. Why does it always work that way? Such a small error,...........

Now if the two decimal errors stack,..........? You figure the value at 21 cents instead of 0.21 cents and you weigh the gold at 0.01gr instead of 0.1gr,........you can be off by a factor of 1000. You could lose brazillions of dollars!

Fortunately for us the gov't can just print more money and bail us out, so in the end the errors don't really matter. :devil:

I'm certain the people running this country don't recognise the difference between a million, a billion, or a trillion, so why should we worry about it?
[1 edits; Last edit by kaveman at 16:02:31 Sat Dec 1 2012]

  
geowizard
15:56:55 Sat
Dec 1 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Scrub,

I spent about 15 seconds doing a search and got their phone number. It's a published number 907- seven seven eight - 2231. Why not give them a call?

You can read my earlier post on the reality of recreational mining and the Native corporations in Alaska and for most of the rest of the world for that matter. Each one of these corporations has a unique management style based on the leadership appointed to control and administer their domain.

Frankly, they aren't running a theme park. They understand the liability involved in permitting "outsiders" with little or no financial backing and little or no contribution to them as a corporation entering onto their (sometimes sacred) lands.

Early pioneers set the stage for us later pioneers.

Early pioneers treated the natives as savages if they defended themselves or as an expendable inconvenience to be mistreated, abused and enslaved if they were passive. There is a lot of well established history of mistrust of outsiders.

Outsiders come with one reason in mind... To extract the resources that the natives have.

Turning the tables...

Suppose a small group of Athabascan Natives sent you a letter and wanted to dredge for gold in your front yard.:confused:

- Geowizard

  
growler
19:02:46 Sat
Dec 1 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Video of placer op. on Anvil crk near Ophir Ak http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLToXbiOgTA Jim

  
geowizard
23:51:03 Sat
Dec 1 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

growler,

That's one of my favorites too. Here's another; Doug Clark at Ganes with cleanup:

http://www.clark-wiltz.com/images/imagerepository/doug.jpg

-Geowizard

  
Scrub
15:32:13 Tue
Dec 4 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Geowizard,
I've tried BLM Lands, State Lands, Doyon & directory assistance, and I'm still unable to contact Hungwitchin. I tried the # you had, & it was not April Frank or Hungwitchin. In fact, the party I reached said they did not know either. The only # directory assistance had close to April Frank was an A. Frank, but that wasn't it either.

I called Doyon back to check the address I had on my letter original letter that I mailed on Sept. 7th in which I originally requested permit consideration. They had the same P.O. Box that I used. Since it was not returned, it's apparently a good P.O. Box, but I have no way of knowing if anyone from Hungwitchin got the letter.

Drilling further, I called Doyon back & asked if they had contact info for Hungwitchin in Eagle. They had a phone number which I dialed, but all I got was a recording stating it was not a working #. Doyon could find no other ph #'s or an address for them other than what I've tried.

So I'm still at an impasse in my attempt to get a surface permit which I'm told I need in addition to the Doyon minerals permit. (Doyon charges $1,000.) At this point, I've tried everything I've thought of. I've emailed all to Doyon's resource manager. He is out for two weeks. He was forwarding my emails to their minerals guy; but he's out for an unknown length of time. I'm still "Hung"-witchin up!

I've spent more than 15sec's of research. I doubt if anyone thinks I'm interested in a theme park pass or that I'd treat natives like savages. I have too much respect for their land & people to do that. (You might try pulling someone else's chain if you hoped to get "a rise" from me.)



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Scrub
 
 
geowizard
17:18:32 Tue
Dec 4 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

scrub,

My comments are not directed at anyone in person. The reply was in response to your question(s). Not directed at you personally, but in reply to the social concepts involved in the business of mining on native owned lands.

How can anyone "make" a business relationship happen when the other party is not reponsive? If the other party is unable or unwilling to respond, then what are the chances of negotiating or communicating or corresponding? It's awkward for an interested party, myself, or any other mining company to send a "letter of interest" to another person or business entity to begin with.

It's an unfortunate part of business that we all face from time to time that has to have a consequence. How many "deals" do we miss out on because the deal maker cannot find us. We missed the call?

Responsibility: Repronounced: "Response ability".

IF Hungwitchin or anyone else is unable, or unwilling to have a common channel for communication, they have cut off the world at large from the ability to correspond with them. That's their choice.

Added information:

TWO resources in Alaska are DNR Recorder and Alaska Department of Commerce.

Alaska Department of Commerce has the job of registering all corporations and business entities in Alaska.

Hungwitchin is a registered corporation.

Send a letter by certified mail, return receipt.

http://www.commerce.state.ak.us/CBP/TempPDF/ac72c9b3-98c1-4669-9335-98ad45ced8d5.pdf

There is a physical address too.

- Geowizard
[2 edits; Last edit by geowizard at 18:10:37 Tue Dec 4 2012]

  
Scrub
15:03:21 Wed
Dec 5 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine

Geowizard,
Geowizard,
Thanks for the positive input. Sorry if I was a bit defensive. I'll give your most recent suggestion a try.

I have to pose a rhetorical question in a case of an unresponsive party. It indicates they no longer cares one way or the other. In that case, if I get the proper permits except for the unresponsive party, wouldn't I have a case for exercising the rights I've been afforded by the other parties?

However, I just want to spend a few weeks working hard, enjoying life for the time I've got left and maybe paying for the trip with anything I find.

Thanks again!



---
Scrub
 
 
geowizard
16:39:46 Wed
Dec 5 2012

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Re: So you wanna placer mine


Placer mining is unique in a way because we have to do it on someone elses land. I would add... we don't have to do this.

Because it is something we WANT to do, but don't NEED to do, success, one way or the other isn't of importance. If it's just a bucket-list item, then the question becomes a matter of what the COST of satisfying the WANT is.

With reference to non responsive agencies;

Corporations have a motive. Many are socially oriented and philanthropic. They give money away. What are the motives behind creation of a Native corporation? The motives are dependent on the members of the corporation and the ability of the leaders of that corporation to satisfy the wants and needs of the members. Because many needs are satisfied by currency, there is a universal need for currency. The Native Corporations have been given a piece of the Alaskan pie in the sense that the parcels of land that have been negotiated and agreed upon through ANICLA will contain the resources that they have available to get done the things they need to get done NOW and in the FUTURE.

Placer mining on Native lands will only happen when the miner or mining company can provide an INCENTIVE". That incentive must be sufficient to satisfy the needs of the corporation. Keeping that in mind provides the appropriate mind set for entering into negotiation.

IF anyone should decide that the buy-in of two parties without the buy-in of the third party is sufficient, then you can expect that i.e in this case, Hungwitchin may exercise their option to prosecute.

IF IT WERE ME;

I would look for an abandoned placer gold mine on state of Alaska domain. Go, look, discover, stake, record, enjoy.

- Geowizard

  

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