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people online in the last 1 minutes - 0 members, 0 anon and 0 guests. (Most ever was 29 at 13:36:32 Sat Aug 3 2002)

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dredger
02:27:21 Sat
Mar 16 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Dick,

Just too dang cold here to run machinery,

Ouch, it is painful to me to think it is " Just too dang cold here to run machinery," :gonetoofar: I understand you are giving me the facts, but they are facts that I have no experience with, ???. couple with my fear of snow and cold,

I was thinking or hoping the muck would refreeze so once it is removed, it would refreeze enough to be stacked on top off, and driven over, ?? ,

I am also thinking allot of time will be lost transporting the muck, having to go too far, u know,??.

phil.

  
chickenminer
19:31:30 Sat
Mar 16 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Phil...
I hear you on transporting the ripped muck. Additional cost anytime you have to handle material more than once. Not much choice here, creek is too narrow to stack overburden to the sides.

Here is a photo of the bench this winter. The red circle is where I am sinking a prospect hole. This is how I know the depth of muck in the back and the width of the pay.
Photos ought to cool you off :smile:










---
Dick Hammond - Chicken, Alaska
Chicken / Stonehouse Creek Mining
Chickenminer.com
 
 
geowizard
22:00:14 Sat
Mar 16 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Dick,

You need to pull those photos before "driftminer" sees 'em!

He'd tell ya how wide the pay is AND how long.

- Geowizard

  
dredger
11:01:13 Sun
Mar 17 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Dick, it's ok, please don't feel bad. not your fault,
I am back from the operating theatre, the by-pass to by-pass the by-passes went well,
:gonetoofar: please don't do that mate, I now have evidence that you can snap freeze Aussie sunbaked nuts in the bag, with a picture like that, :smile: in future could you please give me notice so I can wear dark sunnies,
You know, they say, we can't remember anything as kids before 7 years old, but I remember exactly when I was 3 years 3months 4 days old, the family went to the snow, where I promised myself " never again ", and I never did, :smile:
However your excellent pic was enough for me to suggest this,
Concerning transporting muck and I refer to when I simulated making the road starting at the shallow gully, downstream of the machine,
And feel that it would be easy to cut a culvert road through the bench at frozen gravel level, ?? even bedrock and perhaps a prospecting trench, ??, then slop the culvert road up slightly to the other side and back of the bench, and dump and push the muck off the back side of the bench, and yes I think and confidently suggest based in what I see in your last picture, when you get your ripper working, and you are understanding that your 30 tonner is ripping like the 60 tonner you thought you needed, , more than enough power, In my situation I backed off the throttle, bit by bit, realizing that it takes allot less power to rip with 1 tooth, then it does 5 teeth, so I reduced and slowed the power down to where I had fine definition between the power required to rip the materials and the power being provided by the machine, so I slow the power down again, to where the ripper is struggling and begin rocking the Ripper.

this frees up or increases the ripper efficiency with “out “having to increase machine power in-put, so how slow much slower, ??? , ok, the other part of this transformation, from slow revving powerful ripper to efficiently fast removing the loose ripped materials, that are like sand on a beach, all very loose and transferred easy and fast, so that is efficiently quick ripping, and fast light removal of ripped loose soft materials, as well as wear and tear on the machine greatly reduced, now how fast is my machine running ,
Bit over half throttle, allot less then when I tried to dig with the bucket, allot less then what i use in the river, generally speaking, Defiantly enough power to reach out and fill the bucket to full, of loose materials, a precision slim the depth of the ripper, no real friction felt, and the bucket and arms are folded and loaded, so then the object is to slew to the right and lift the closed bucket maximum reach and height and place the bucket still closed on the edge of the wall, gently, because the left track lifts a few inches off the pad as the weight and momentum gets too much within inches of the top wall, maximum reach and height, then I unfold the bucket trying to push the top of the wall back behind the bucket, leaving enough room for the material in the bucket, high on the wall, please note the engine rpm sound during the lift and placement of the materials goes like this, as soon as the bucket is full and clear I give med slew to the right, full power to the 2 big boom rams and at the same time give full control lever to the dipper to extend, and up she goes, motor bracing and slowing itself for a quick high lift, about half way up, the momentum over balance the whole machine gently lifting the track slowly trying to balance back, the motor is labouring harder, and just at the last part of the lift, the rpm drops to a few hundred rpm above stalling, but quickly regains a nice purr as the bucket settles high into the wall, rpm is ready to unfold the bucket and moving the weight of the machine on the left track, lifting the right track also helps the bucket to push harder into the wall.
Suggesting to me the motor pump is running fairly slow,
Hopefully you will find the idea of a culvert short cut road and moving that much materials can be dug very quickly, resulting in only short distances to dump, I actually think or have the feeling that the ripper will work so well, you will be ripping faster than the loader can move, ??,
Also just after they de-fibula ted me this morning, Ha, I glanced at your prospecting hole and had a flash back to where I am digging the dam, and earlier higher up the hill where the blue granite is greatly exposed at the surface, the land owner and I were wondering how hard it was and decided to punch down a quick hole and see how deep it went, so away I went , rip then bucket, again and again, quickly punching down only because the ripper is too much for the rock, bucket wide by 4-5 buckets long, 12-15’ deep, did not take long, 15 mins, we left hole wondering what use it might be, and found it rained that night and filled to the brim, which the land owner found convenient to pump water from,
Gotta run, back asap,

  
dredger
11:29:36 Sun
Mar 17 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper


OK , the sketch above shows roughly the angle the ripper is folded, when used to sweep big rocks and loose materials to the side with the flat side of the ripper, levelling roads after ripping, I think it would be handy for moving big chunks of still frozen muck, the v looking sketch shows the shape of a trench that can be dug with just a ripper, when laying pipes or elect supply underground,
Next is pic of the dam being ripped, with thoughts about hard ground? And ripper performance,
The black arrows at back show a very hard setting white powder level?? not really soil, I can only really scrap the depth of the teeth to get into and under it, it is pretty hard on the machine,
Yellow arrows at the back, show dry brown dry clay level, also very hard and is also hard on the machine,
Yellow arrow in front shows moist brown clay, temp small dam wall, inside the larger dam, yes I said dam inside a dam? This is softer then the dry clay, but still hard to dig mixed with bigger rocks, which is in my opinion is being too hard on the machine using a bucket, ,
Purple arrows show Granite blue, nature has cracked it for me, but not long ago, it is hard and packed, I want to move allot, and I do not want to damage my machine, so, get the ripper,
Next is my experience, pics sketches and thoughts on using my ripper,
So I reach out for the first rip, and remember this,

1, (top left corner) shows ripper clawing down a work face, 1 near the machine shows the machine lifting the tracks,
2, shows same, machine can claw down a vertical face but with a lot lifting and drop the machine,
3, the machine is still shaken around, mostly due to the dipper reaching out and touchy boom rams, but if the small job has too be done,
4, shows maximum reach and is bumpy as the ripper is drawn in, by the time I get ,
5, everything changes, the ripper is a plough, the whole machine becomes firm, steady and begins to pull into itself, which can be felt because the machine pulls itself into the pad on which it is sitting, at this point, that is what it feels like, which is about 1/3 travel back from full reach of the arm, as the ripper continues to rip the last 2/3 travel,
6, is when I start thinking this hyd giant is a monster, compared to when I use a bucket, the last 2/3 travel of the ripper are pure power, too much power so I start kicking on the throttle,

  
kaveman
14:13:05 Sun
Mar 17 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Learn something new every post! I can see that angled pad could be useful,....I'll put that in the 'bag 'o tricks'.

We've got a ripper that we meant to use on bedrock, but it's 1/4" too narrow for the stick so we haven't used it yet. It will fit the quick coupler, but attaching that to the stick is another job that's been put back on the shelf. What we did do last year was replace the 42" dirt bucket with a 24" pointy toothed rock bucket(220 sized exc)and found that the digging of both rocky dirt and bedrock has become MUCH easier. Even with the smaller bucket, punching test holes down 20' can be done in about half the time and the digger doesn't seem to be working half as hard doing it. Those teeth are ripping out bedrock that the spade teeth of the 42" bucket simply skimmed across.

So I'll ask,..........what sort of bucket have you got on that 300 now? Then I'll mention that I found something last year that I SO wanted to buy, but just didn't have a use for. Found a heavy 36" rock bucket locally for sale that was advertised as a 200 bucket, but when we went to pick it up it was obviously a 300 bucket.In fact, it was marked PC300 and it would be a perfect fit on your Hitachi. 36" heavy reinforced rock bucket with twist-lock tiger teeth and sidecutters AND 90mm pins,......in unused condition with surface rust from years of outside storage. Price was $650,.......cheap enough that I was instantly on the hunt for a 300 series excavator just so I could have a use for it.

Now, afaik it's still sitting here in MI and I'm not sure it makes sense to ship it all the way up to AK, but I think a bucket like that would work pretty fine on your permafrost and possibly be more useful than a ripper tooth. I've also seen a couple of fantastic deals on heavy, HEAVY V shaped buckets with frost teeth,...........and those have always been 300 series buckets as well,........so again I had to let them go.

Here's one on eBay now(in TX)like I'm talking about. Last year there was an identical bucket brand new for half the price that went for months without a buyer. I even considered bushing the pins down to the 80mm that I need for my Kobelco, but the rest of the dimensions were far enough off that I didn't want to risk it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/32-Heavy-duty-Rock-Bucket-for-a-Komatsu-PC300-Excavator-V-Bottom-Frost-/280869317448?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41651dab48





I see these ripper buckets around as well, but prices are all over the place and like this example, can be outrageous,...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Ripper-Bucket-for-Hitachi-EX450-Excavator-/220609569120?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335d5ae160




But I bet they'd do a job on your frozen muck.
[1 edits; Last edit by kaveman at 14:29:20 Sun Mar 17 2013]

  
oldstyle
16:56:57 Sun
Mar 17 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

I would like to add my concern about a large ripper. I was prying a large boulder from the bottom of my pit with my 211 Warner Swasey, an antique but strong machine. When I pulled the boom up I had managed to bust the end off of the dipper. Just a warning about excessive forces beyound original engineering design.

  
dickb
18:33:38 Sun
Mar 17 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Hi Oldstyle:
That might have been from metal fatigue and not just excess power. Over time the metal crystallizes internally and will fail without warning. When your working at the limits of the machine some crazy things can happen.

Hi Dredger:
Backhoe 101. A good description on how to best utilize the capabilities of the hydraulic system instead of just the machine weight. With the pad your less likely to slide the machine with the point. Icy conditions don't allow the pads to grab the soil and your able to slide the tracks much easier the harder the surface your sitting on. Your always able to use more of the machines power the closer you are to the center point.
This has been a great discussion and I hope a lot of the miners are able to get some good information from it.
Dickb

  
oldstyle
22:40:40 Sun
Mar 17 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

just found this on Ritchie Bros Chilliwack sale, near Vancouver BC. http://www.rbauction.com/jones-qc-ripper?invId=3644534&id=ci

  
oldstyle
22:51:29 Sun
Mar 17 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Could be fatigue, but it ripped along the welds. They seemed to have had good penetration, and nothing out of the ordinary for cracking before the failure. It is now reinforced with a piece of a Mack truck frame and lots of gussets. My concern is using excessive leaverage in a manner the the machine was not designed. Bruce

  
chickenminer
03:17:40 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Phil ...
Good posts! I'll keep the info in mind.
Last summer I was trying to rip some of the frozen face down
with the teeth on the bucket. Man .. I quickly learned that is not the way to rip !!

Keeping traction on the frozen ground is a problem. I do have ice cleats welded on the pads to help somewhat.



---
Dick Hammond - Chicken, Alaska
Chicken / Stonehouse Creek Mining
Chickenminer.com
 
 
Jim_Alaska
03:26:21 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Great thread guys. What a wealth of information.

It makes me appreciate the decomposed rock I was ripping with just the regular toothed bucket last year at the hard rock mine. Went down about 20 feet and never had any problems doing it.



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Jim_Alaska
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jfoley@sisqtel.net
 
 
chickenminer
03:28:49 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

kaveman...
I don't really want a combo bucket/ripper. In my experience anytime something tries to have a dual purpose, it ends up doing neither very well.

For my purpose I would rather stick with the single-point ripper option. I did look at the LEA multiripper.


Interesting option, but still I think I would get more benefit from a single-point ripper.

I have a 1.5 yd CP heavy rock bucket on the 300 now. I'm looking for a 2 yd bucket if you happen to see you for sale.



---
Dick Hammond - Chicken, Alaska
Chicken / Stonehouse Creek Mining
Chickenminer.com
 
 
overtheedge
04:57:17 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Wow Dick, that LEA is an awesome chunk of iron. I'm thinking a wider pass and each tooth preps for the next tooth. No time for the cracks in the frozen muck to heal. Granted, not as deep.
And you won't be chisel plowing, but more like digging. So probably slower per pass. However, it is a 3-tined rake. So I'm thinking about raking up the frozen clods.

I hope you make the best choice for you.
eric

  
dredger
11:48:21 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Dick, I think you are right going with the Single tyne, that last one gives me the feeling it would twist, and wear pins and bushes right up the dipper, abnormally, just a thought ,
I hear you. "I quickly learned that is not the way to rip !!"

Allot of good points posted, Kaveman posted by changing down from 42" to 24" was so much easier, can be done in about half the time and the digger doesn't seem to be working half as hard doing it. well I am here to tell you he is telling the truth, the other half of the truth is 24" down to 4" . Much easier, half time, half as hard, “again ", you will be amazed, ,
I am running out of time, sorry,
The pad idea could be as easy as transferring enough gravel 5cu yds, ?? from the river to build pads as you go, dragging the pad with you, couple of tree trunks too.
Get the big bucket, the big bucket works best when the ground has been ripped, and soft,
Dickb says it very very well. " A good description on how to best utilize the capabilities of the hydraulic system instead of just the machine weight."
"Your always able to use more of the machines power the closer you are to the center point.".
So my suggestion is do that, and suggest this method,

testing,

  
dredger
16:16:11 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

So, if you are able to position the 30tonner on a stabile level work platform, up on top of the bench,

You could focus on only using the last the last 2/3rds of the reach of your machine, this being the optimum ripping position, much easier, half the time. Half the throttle,

1, showing the depth and angle of the first rip, Depending on how hard the frozen muck is, 1, the first rip is the hardest, in any material, rock, ice, so I think your machine will rip the first deep grove easerly, perhaps in the centre of across the work face, 300lc-3 cold be easerly 40-50' across/slew, 15' + high, 2/3 reach should be around 20', next rip perhaps 24" parallel to the first rip, I would suggest this is where the big chunks will start flying, breaking off, with a crack, but I do think the machine will hardly feel any shock, as the big chunks fly, this is where you may think your are operating a 60 tonner, and because of the angle of the rip, hopefully most of the small and large chunks, should slid back down the slope/angle, maybe a bit of side pushing to help them slid back, then rip out the next level, and the next level, first rip in the centre each time, about half way down the materials that had already fallen down would be built up to the level being ripped, rip that level, then open the thumb about half way, and use the last 1/3 travel of the arm (10') to push the ripped materials back, if your loader is working, two operators, and quickly able to load and dump, I would think you would make good progress, if you are by yourself, you may be able to rip and push and move back enough materials, each 20' section that you move back, hopefully you could a rip say 60-100' before you have to change to the loader,??> Just guessing, based on the expected performance of your machine,
2, frozen muck is not as hard to rip then we think, but still frozen enough to stay in bigger larger chunks, and again easerly pushed back with the thumb,
Got to run, but 2 things more, 1 Dick I am a little concerned about you moving back and forth from the excavator sitting on the bench down to the loader, when working by yourself, could be dangerous, and if you decide to or find you can work from on top of the bench, we should brain storm some ideas to ensure your not hurt moving around,
2, thanks Jim, I hope you get to have a go on a ripper soon,
Thanks oldstyle, all good info, I found a utube on your machine, looked good and strong, I have never seen or heard of that make, and i like the riper link, very nice, lots or potential for a 20 tonner, even possible adjustable height,
Thanks dickb, nice post, well said, words of wisdom,
Thanks kaveman, good on the spot experience input, lets hope you get your hitch fixed next , I would love to hear your experience with a good ripper,

Ps Dick, again I think you could use a bigger bucket too, that will help if you have to move frozen defrost muck in bulk and quickly, , and there is another trick I have used to virtually slice hard sandstone, with just a excavator, pretty quick, I wanted to explain more about that too, info that might be worth knowing,
Also another line of thought that goes like this, operating an excavator should also focus on not over revving the motor, or over powering above what is only required to do the job, resulting in less or almost no shock and vibration in the machine, and there is a distinct feeling it is too quite, and smooth, ??.
oh, one more, if you are going to buy a bucket off ebay or just second hand, you need to be sure the capacity of the bucket is what you want, not bigger or smaller then you want, not bigger or smaller then it looks, to your eye, hope that helps, been there done that,
back asap,

  
kaveman
17:00:09 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

The asymetrical teeth on the three tyne would worry me. I'm sure it's hell for stout, but I don't like the way it torques the machine. I'm sure everybody has seen Goldrush and the slanty-toothed ripper bucket the Dakota Boys used on Porcupine. My first thought was "wow, I've never seen a bucket quite like that. Looks wicked, but unbalanced". Yeah, the old 270 was pretty well clapped out and those boys are anything but gentle with their machines, but I still suspect that bucket is the cause of their breakdown. Hard, HARD digging and the shock and pressure is always on the single outside tooth.

Nice thing about the 'V' shaped bucket is that all the stress is centered and you're putting all your force into a single spot when the digging is hard. It'll automatically dig deeper and take a larger cut if and when the material allows it. It's no good for making a 'pretty' hole, but it digs better than any other. Had a bucket like that on my old truck-mounted backhoe and have been wanting another for the Kobelco ever since.

  
chickenminer
20:42:25 Mon
Mar 18 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Yes,
The LEA multiripper is mighty wicked looking and definitely looks stout. Very good points on the offset design too. Indeed it would place more of a twisting stress on the pins/mount, especially in material as unforgiving as frozen muck.
I have never ripped hard pack, except with a bucket. Then it seemed more to loosen the surrounding material as you dig. In my digging hardpack, such as bedrock, I never had the same sharp, hard jarring feeling sitting in the hoe as when I was trying to rip frozen muck.

Ripping frozen muck seems totally different. This stuff doesn't loosen the surrounding, it just breaks a chunk out.
I don't know, not enough experience yet with ripping. I still have to believe for my purpose the best use would come from a single-point ripper.

I think my best approach to ripping this bench is from the bottom working up. That way I can always have a slight incline to pull into and the material is coming down grade. It'll be a learning experience!
Hopefully I can come up with some kind of a single-point ripper to try.

kaveman.. I've never seen any of the GoldRush shows, so don't know exactly what they were using but i assume it was
something like the buckets you showed?
I definitely see where having a centered stress point is important.

oldstyle... interesting ripper there on the RB auction. Thanks for posting! There was a guy here had an old Warner Swasey. Might have been the first hydraulic excavator on the creek for mining. Monster machine. Not sure what it had in it, 8V Detroit ? But boy howdy we sure knew when he was running!



---
Dick Hammond - Chicken, Alaska
Chicken / Stonehouse Creek Mining
Chickenminer.com
 
 
kaveman
00:29:29 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

I think the slanted ripper bucket they used is a defective design. The slop in their bucket linkage surely contributed to the failure, but I think even tight pins would be loosened up soon enough. Here's a few minutes showing the hoe and the ripper bucket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k18ocfBI9ME

They didn't even have the paint worn off before the bucket link was shattered.

I have no doubt the single tooth ripper will work for you.

  
2pontoons
04:33:18 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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Hey, Dick
About your prospect shaft...how are you putting this one down? How deep are you at this time? We'll be back in our shaft by the end of April. Kurt

  
dredger
08:20:34 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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Dick, :smile:

lots of good info in your last post, ,
, I never had the same sharp, hard jarring feeling sitting in the hoe as when I was trying to rip frozen muck,
Ripping frozen muck seems totally different. This stuff doesn't loosen the surrounding, it just breaks a chunk out.
I don't know, not enough experience yet with ripping. I still have to believe for my purpose the best use would come from a single-point ripper.
I think my best approach to ripping this bench is from the bottom working up,

Xxxxxx OK, looks like someone has to pull a rabbit out of a hat to solve these problems,
So, I was just wondering what colour rabbit you want, ? haha,
I will do you a sketch,
Kaveman.
You say,
I think the slanted ripper bucket they used is a defective design. The slop in their bucket linkage surely contributed to the failure, but I think even tight pins would be loosened up soon enough.They didn't even have the paint worn off before the bucket link was shattered.
Sorry i missed that, do you know if there is a utube showing that incident, or of the damage, and or could you please explain in more detail, clock wise or anti clock wise direction, ??. how far it was twisted to, 1 o’clock, 2,??
Nice thing about the 'V' shaped bucket is that all the stress is centred and you're putting all your force into a single spot when the digging is hard. It'll automatically dig deeper and take a larger cut if and when the material allows it. It's no good for making a 'pretty' hole, but it digs better than any other. Had a bucket like that on my old truck-mounted backhoe and have been wanting another for the Kobelco ever since.

xxxxxxx You have convinced me, the more I think about your v-bucket experiences, I think you have found an excellent solution, game over. how about say 36" wide, nice v, 1.5cu mt capacity 20ton, would be best compromise in river gravel, and feeling around on bedrock and big rocks, and dry hard pack, rip and dig out at the same time, maybe i will just cut the teeth and bottom out of my bucket, and just reshape it, Thanks for that, I mean it, but I will keep my ripper for those special occasions,
Phil.

  
kaveman
13:58:11 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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RE: Gold Rush,.....

I looked last night to see if I could find a vid of the breakage, but no luck(looking again now). The two vids posted on youtube were uploaded by the maker of the Shark bucket and they did a pretty good job of NOT showing the breakage. As I remember the episode, the linkage seemed to break almost instantly upon fitting the 'Shark' ripper bucket,.....certainly it was broken same day/same dig.They did capture the actual moment of breakage in the show. At the time iirc, the bucket had a decent sized boulder in it and the linkage broke while trying to shake the boulder out, but obviously the actual damage had been done while digging/ripping. You can hear it go and see the bucket swinging 'free'. Both of the link arms are twisted and shattered. While contemplating a 'fix', the twisted wreckage is laid out on a table to see if it can be rewelded and it's quite obviously past the point of salvage, even considering the 'make-do' nature of their normal 'fixes'.

They actually manage a pretty decent looking replacement cut and welded from scrap and are later shown working the bedrrock again with that bucket. They engineer a heavy 'H' shaped structure to replace the links and it seems to do a good job of counteracting the torque of the asymmetrical ripper bucket.

Gold Rush show hasn't been mentioned on this forum as far as I know since the initial season one, but I'd like to mention something about it. I was probably one of the most vocal critics of what I considered nothing but a trainwreck which was certainly a fair description of season one(lotsa fake drama,.....little to no actual 'mining'), but I have to admit that later episodes have become not only much more interesting, but actually speckled with good, helpful bits if you study it closely enough. If nothing else, you get a good lesson in what NOT to do. I've probably seen every episode half a dozen times and I've developed the valuable ability to see past the ignorance of its TV-ness and just pick out the value. I think I've learned something of value from each and every episode, not withstanding season one which was still worth suffering through. I'd suggest every serious miner make an attempt to get through it at least once or twice. Seriously.

Can't say the same about the Bering Sea series which is just painful to try and watch. It's fully 99% TV garbage as far as I'm concerned.

[1 edits; Last edit by kaveman at 15:50:56 Tue Mar 19 2013]

  
kaveman
15:59:26 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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dredger,....my V bucket experience is VERY limited. I probably dug two holes with the 20" V bucket on my backhoe and noticed that it dug MUCH better in hard ground than the 20" standard bucket I had been using. Sold the hoe shortly after and never got another chance to work with it.

Haven't been able to find much on youtube after looking for a couple of hours, but here are a few short vids that were interesting enough to watch,..

V bucket on bedrock,....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jAKEROc6Zc

Single tooth ripper on same,.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfKRhhP_wFg

Interesting enough interview describing rock bucket design features,.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bek0YQKR8is

None of this may be applicable to the subject at hand, but it's the fruit of hours of searching so it's worth posting. I know there are several decent vids of ripper teeth in action, but I haven't searched them yet. I found one running through a couple of feet of frozen earth(with ease), but I doubt it's anything like going through 15' of permafrost.

  
Fleng
18:58:07 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Has anyone considered high pressure steam as a method to rip the permafrost? There are several energy states of steam depending upon the temperature and pressure. Wearing out the excavator hydraulics and trashing case-hardened steel sounds pretty expensive. Seeing the Gold Rush guys manhandle their equipment - its no wonder they have so much down-time for repairs.

It seems like forcing the machine to do difficult tasks is the sure way to cause a problem. If there was a way to soften up the overburden- hauling it off should be easier. Lets say that seams in the permafrost could be cut so that one-yard chunks could be removed. If we could cut these seams over a few weeks then the stress on the euipment would be far less.

My suggestion is that the cutting with sheets of steam could be done underneath an insulated watershield to make use of the warm condensate before it freezes up again. Hydraulic wedges similar to the "jaws of life" could be inserted into the grid to break the chunks apart in sizes that an excavator could handle.

  
chickenminer
19:43:31 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Kurt,
Just wood fires. This hole won't be that deep. Down abt 15' now. Terrible stuff to thaw through!
Good luck to you guys this summer.

kaveman...
Some neat stuff to watch there. I can't quite figure those Gold Rush things on Utube. Seems like all advertising. How does a guy get to watch the dang show?!
Guess I need to do more probing in the dark depths of Utube.

Fleng...
Yes, the use of high pressure water cutting has been brought up in this thread. May well be the answer for someones project.



---
Dick Hammond - Chicken, Alaska
Chicken / Stonehouse Creek Mining
Chickenminer.com
 
 
kaveman
22:03:53 Tue
Mar 19 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Hey Dick, most of what I'm finding are previews. They want you to pay $1.99 per episode to watch the full thing. I think I found a free one here,............until they pull it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KReKK24WhGs

It's all re-edited so it's kinda chopped up from the broadcast version. Digging bedroch unsuccessfully at 9:00. The ripper bucket disaster happens about the 18:00 mark, but they seem to have edited out the actual digging and breaking. They do show you the destroyed parts and some wonderful shadetree fabrication,.......which is why I watch it.

At 26:00 they've got the newly fabricated link replaced, but strangely they're back to digging with the standard bucket,....I wonder why? Then they break again(track idler). Lots of broken equipment to enjoy,.....much like true life!

Video and sound quality are pretty poor,....sorry.

Not a lot of Derockers and Rippers and Washplants down here in Indiana, so I get my off-season fix watching the show.
[1 edits; Last edit by kaveman at 22:07:32 Tue Mar 19 2013]

  
dredger
01:16:50 Wed
Mar 20 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Hey, Kaveman, thanks, I appreciate the time you put in,

I did a few hours myself, woof, you can get lost in there, aye,: smile:
I could not see much of the v-bucket, and I tried to find more videos on it, still looking,

Exceptional tool for showing people what we are talking about, but very addictive, Check this quickie. OOOOOPs.
:confused:
oops, http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=yX1HQ602gEE&feature=fvwp
testing, back asap.
[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 02:17:32 Wed Mar 20 2013]

  
kaveman
16:02:28 Wed
Mar 20 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

If you look, there are plenty of videos of accidents where the operator actually suffers a fatality. It's kinda ghoulish to watch those, but if you justify it by LEARNING something I can deal with it. The problem there is that some of the situations that ended so badly are just SO stupid, it's hard to pretend even a novice would be so short-sighted as to put himself in that position. Having buildings fall on you while you're undermining them seems pretty obvious,......but there are several videos of excavators falling off of mountains and those usually start off in positions that don't seem too tricky in the beginning. Definitely eye-opening to see how quickly things change.

After watching another couple of hours of youtubes, I'm very glad I don't have to deal with permafrost! Other than the $77,000 XCentric(that thing is sweet!), I don't think there really is a good answer. There's one video that compares the XCentric side-by-side with a hydraulic hammer and really puts the hammer to shame, and I think they bring in the hydraulic hammer when the single ripper can't get the job done,.....and I'm sure the single ripper digs easier than just about anything else.

Hydraulicking if you've got the water and room(I know you don't). Isn't it a standard method to strip in two stages,........stripping the insulating vegatation off in one season and then handling the melted permafrost the following year? I do understand the problem with handling the thawed muck in the second year; 15 feet of undrained 'ooze' to push around,.......which brings us back to your original desire to handle it as frozen chunks. I suppose we're right back to your opening post where the only decent option is a simple single ripper tooth attached to the 300 and 'wishing' we had $77,000 to spend on the XCentric ripper instead. Sorry to have dragged this all the way around to where your initial thought was the correct one, but I did have fun researching the problem.

When I was shopping for a ripper I saw more SEC than anything else. There was an equipment yard in Medford OR that had maybe a dozen different rippers and the Geith did certainly look to be the best of the lot FWIW.

  
chickenminer
22:30:30 Wed
Mar 20 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Kev..
I appreciate your input. Watched that Gold Rush thing, kind of fun. I see the ripper bucket you speak of, but boy they didn't show its use very long! That is funny after the "fix" he's got the old bucket back on.

Well... the ripper is just something I want to try. My old methods for removing muck was strip the vegetation and either use hydraulicing as it thawed, or do the wait...strip...wait ...strip method. Muck thaws sloooow.
Too big a hurry and your trying to push liquid jello around. This piece of ground isn't something I'm going to get stripped in one season.

Yes, a lot of SEC stuff on the RB auctions. But I hear you get what you pay for in the SEC brand.
We'll see what happens. I'm sure I'll come up with a ripper of some sort to try out this summer.



---
Dick Hammond - Chicken, Alaska
Chicken / Stonehouse Creek Mining
Chickenminer.com
 
 
dredger
23:58:19 Wed
Mar 20 2013

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Re: Excavator Ripper

Hey guys,

I have some to post but not quite finished,

But, Dick,

Once you have a chunk torn off, does it stick inside the bucket, ??, and you have to shake it out of the bucket, ??.

Does a bucket move it, ?

phil.
[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 00:00:30 Thu Mar 21 2013]

  

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