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Rod_Seiad
16:36:04 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Staying "on topic"

"When I post on this forum or any other forum, it is with well thought conscious effort directed at the topic at hand."--wiz


Baba,
Try not to expect more than is humanly possible. Power corrupts critical thinking. Placing bounderies on discussion per individual thread is the educated tool of control. You're very good at thinking out side the thread, it's another to disrupt the flow of normalcy. After-all, your thoughts are valuable to each of us here.



  
geowizard
16:51:29 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Staying "on topic"

Rod,

You should start a new thread on "How to hijack a thread".

The reason for having discussion "on topic" is to reduce confusion and "chaos".

As a matter of consideration and respect for others, please stay "on topic".

Thanks.

- Geowizard

  
bababooey
17:22:32 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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elephants

According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), 34.3 million head of cattle were slaughtered in 2008, down from 32.4 million in 2005; commercial hog slaughter totaled 116.4 million head, an increase from 103.6 million in 2005; and commercial poultry slaughter consisted of approximately 9.0 billion chickens and 271.2 million turkeys, with chickens comparable to 2005 at 8.9 billion and turkeys up significantly from 2005 figures of 246 million. Rendered product from this meat production totaled 8.5 million metric tons (MMT) in 2008, as compared to 8.1 MMT in 2005. Domestic consumption also rose slightly, from 5.5 MMT in 2005 to 5.8 MMT in 2007. USDA figures showed that U.S. consumption of rendered products increased almost 4 percent between 2002 and 2007. Meanwhile, U.S. exports of rendered products increased 17 percent during the same period, reaching 1.7 MMT in 2007. Furthermore, production of animal fats and greases, as reported by the U.S. Census Bureau, increased slightly during the twenty-first century's first decade, reaching almost 4.5 MMT in 2008. Poultry fat and grease comprised a majority of the total.

According to the USDA, 1.6 MMT of the 6.5 MMT of inedible tallow and grease produced in the late 2000s was exported. Mexico continued to be the leading market for U.S. exports in this industry. Turkey was the second largest market for inedible tallow, and Venezuela was second largest for grease.


I dont want to lend money or sell something, I am only searching for ways to save x% fuel costs in mining. And I think thats the way I/we will go.

a quick example,..
a 625Kv 500Kw generator burns in 16h daily/150 day season:
3/4 load 51000gal diesel
4/4 load 68500gal diesel

at $ 5 per gal $255.000/3420000
lard/tallow first grade (normaly not necessarily, second grade is fine $550t, but we will take no chance)
per ton $700 $142.100/187.600

thats in savings oz92/125 at todays gold price

now take at least 1 D10/11 3 loaders 2 excuvator 2 pumps





so, imagine, what if it works?
[1 edits; Last edit by bababooey at 17:26:01 Thu Dec 12 2013]

  
Rod_Seiad
17:37:33 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Staying "on topic"

No, you get out of town.

Baba is on to something that is beneficial. Let him roam and freewheel, even you can learn here.

  
bababooey
17:47:29 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Staying "on topic"

its ok Rod,..

I dont want to create trouble for anybody. I´ll open a new thread on this topic equipment/work effecency and tallow/lard/diesel.

  
geowizard
18:00:38 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: elephants

baba,

A couple of details...

Distribution:

There isn't a distribution network for lard/tallow. In general, shipping costs are $1.00 USD per pound. That adds $2204 per metric tonne or 2204/367 gallons = $6.00 per gallon for transport. The actual transport cost will vary.

Reduced Energy:

Lard/tallow has 28 percent less heat of combustion. The energy provided is lower. The work done is 28 percent less per gallon.

If you are in sub-Saharan Africa where you are surrounded by Water Buffalo and 1000 miles from a Diesel pump, then, yes, lard/tallow becomes an option.

Other points relate to acceptable standards of fuel emissions and equipment warranty. If you are using equipment that you accept the risk for improper use, and/or there are no emission standards, then go for it! :smile:

- Geowizard

  
baub
18:03:23 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Staying "on topic"

This is one of those threads where everyone has good points. All these points come from different perspectives and they can't be easily reconciled. One element of a problem can beget another and another etc until all elements become known and then the true fixes debated. This is common in brainstorming sessions and why we have them. It's also common in Oriental problem solving.

To Mssrs Baba, Geo, Rod, Peluk and our worldwide audience, let's go back to the original problem and present our opinions and possible remedies.

b

  
geowizard
18:49:07 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Staying "on topic"

baub,

Excellent idea.

Here's a link to a State of Alaska document that is related to using Fish oil as a fuel!

http://www.akenergyauthority.org/PDF%20files/FishOilv01.pdf

- Geowizard

  
overtheedge
20:37:15 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Critical thinking


Quote: geowizard

There's nothing wrong with mental exercise. Actually, it makes great fun for winter-time!


I agree conditionally based upon tenure and character of the deposit.

The spreadsheet content has tremendous variability between an Ophir type deposit such as yours, a lower Yuba River deposit, a dry hillside deposit in Arizona, a dry Sahara deposit, etc.

If a person is gonna spend their time running spreadsheet scenarios, first decide on the type of deposit you are considering for potential profitability.

Each type of deposit and its location (logistics) requires a separate spreadsheet.

Critical thinking skill development demands paying attention to detail. There is no one spreadsheet fits all scenarios. You have to start with tenure and character of the deposit. Then run the numbers.

Once the numbers look good, then you can play with alternative methodologies, fuels, etc. Some big got'chas are ancillary equipment demands, logistic bottle-necks, additional man-power in a support function, etc.

If all your supplies are air-shipped on a scheduled basis and you only have one air-freight service available, an unexpected aircraft repair can shut you down.

As you are well aware, money is always tight. If your fuel must be flown in, the available money and credit strictly limits your choices for equipment.

Then there are environmental concerns that will limit equipment choices when it comes to the permitting process. Location, location, location.

In some third-world locations, there may be a mandatory requirement for security. These support personnel are not profit producers.

In many locations, ancillary equipment will be required to keep your employees happy during their off-duty time. And don't forget the ancillary equipment needs if you choose non-traditional fuels.
------------------
I've beat this topic to death enough.

Always start with tenure, character and location of the deposit in putting together your spreadsheet. Then look to thy wallet. Quite often available monies is the limiting factor.

eric

  
aumbre
21:12:14 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Critical thinking

Overtheedge, I look at things a little differently and maybe it’s a cart and horse. My preliminary, rough numbers dictate what type of deposit warrants interest.

  
aumbre
21:45:35 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Cost of mining/ off topic?

My cost estimates indicate that vein type deposits mined by underground methods would need to contain recoverable, saleable minerals with a minimum value of $400.00 to $800.00 per ton.
Placer ground should be $15 to $80.00 per cubic. yd.
Depending on the conditions of the occurrence I would investigate if it seems likely the deposit could fit somewhere close to these ballpark numbers.
I’ve not done much in regards to large open pit type deposits but would guess that somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 to$80.00 per ton would be needed

  
geowizard
22:52:41 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Cost of mining/ off topic?

aumbre,

You guessed it - snake oil!

Grade of mineralization, location, type of commodity and selling price define how much you have available to spend.

There is a definite advantage to "volume" of production.

Take a low grade gold placer for example.

Grade = 0.01 ounces of (refined) gold per cubic yard.

Production capacity = 100 cubic yards per day.

At 100 percent recovery = 1.0 troy ounce per day

Spot is $1250.

Pay is $1250. (called $12.50 per cu yard pay)

-----------------------

In a 100 cubic yard per day operation, certain heavy equipment is required. A 10 cubic yard per hour wash plant with several small loaders to load the wash plant.

A simple wash plant requires a water pump. Let's say 10 gallons of fuel for a 10 hour day.

Unleaded fuel may cost $6 per gallon x 10 gallons = $60.00

Three loaders at 10 gallons each = 30 gallons at $6 per gallon for diesel = $180.

If you pay $20 an hour each for three operators x 10 hours, that will cost $600. for labor.

Subtotal cost = $840.00

I recommend banking $50 an hour for equipment replacement for each piece. You can see that there isn't money in the "budget" for that.

You actually need a cook and/or supervisor to manage the camp. That's another $200 per day per person.

Let's say the supervisor is also the cook.

Subtotal cost = $1040.

We haven't paid for hyd. fluid or food. There's $210 in the cookie jar.

BTW, My fuel runs $9.00 per gallon.

Set that aside and put the $200 in the cookie jar for 100 days. The employees get $20K for 100 days work and they pay their taxes and you get $20K and pay the taxes. There's $20K in the cookie jar to replace rubber and pay claim fees and fly back home.

In a spreadsheet, the costs and revenue are both presented. The advantage is that you can run the spot price of gold up and down and see where the limits of profitability are. You can assign probability to spot going down and fuel costs going up.

With a business model in hand, a deposit fitting the requisite demand per the spreadsheet is sought after.

- Geowizard

  
aumbre
23:28:52 Thu
Dec 12 2013

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Re: Cost of mining/ off topic?

At this point you should decide how accurate your spreadsheet data needs to be. So far it has developed to “back of the envelope” status. Again, just using my ballpark numbers of $15.00 per cubic yd. as a minimum required value, The Ophir tailings appear to be on the low end of potential economic deposits. Only through close to ideal conditions and large production is such a deposit minable at a reasonable profit.

  
geowizard
00:02:53 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: Cost of mining/ off topic?

aumbre,

The cost analysis is accurate. There may be certain fine points that are not included.

Look at this example - same deposit

Grade = 0.01 troy ounces per cubic yard.

Spot price of gold = $1250. per troy ounce (refined).

Production = 150 cubic yards per hour. (1500 cy per day)

Requires D8 Cat Dozer, Cat 235 excavator and 4000 GPM water pump with CAT 200 KW power plant to run feed conveyor, stacker and vibrating screen deck.

Revenue = 15 troy ounces x $1250 = $18,750. per day.

Cost analysis:

Fuel cost = 100 gallons x $6.00 = $600 per day.

Labor cost = $50 each x 4 persons = $2000. per day.

Camp budget = $1000. per day.

Equipment amortization $500 per hour = $5000 per day.

Net profit = $10,000 per day.

Everyone takes home $50K each. Pays their own taxes.

$1,000,000 goes into the bank for rubber and the flight home. :smile:

- Geowizard

  
peluk
01:07:55 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

I went back and read my comment to you regarding your choice of fuel,bababooey.I see my comment could have been viewed differently than intended. I said you have more knowledge than I do about what is available for your machinery so you use what you use.It was not an imperative,It was just acceptance of your situation.

You did state something about dealing with English causes some troubles for you.Keeping that in mind,I thought you must be in a remote area where lard is the most easily available fuel and you want to work with it.You said you have run 75 trucks on it for 4 years but you still have problems with inconsistent quality.You also said you require a heater which I assume is a preheater located somewhere between the tank and the engine.

Well,that heater must consume fuel as well.I don't know where you are working but I'd have to ask myself,is it cold there? Is this fuel so easily congealed that I have to spend my time prepping both my fuel and equipment to get running and keep it runningI don't envy you.
As I said,I don't know where you are but I guess it can get cold in Africa at night if you are there. A ready supply of lard might also be there.

Google? about two months ago,maybe 3, 60 elephants were slaughtered in a region of Africa for no apparent reason.No mention was made of the ivory...nor was any mention made of what must have been a mountain of lard it produced. It is for that reason I threw it out there.

I see from your comments about me, you were preprogrammed to be offended.Please don't ignore my other suggestions in my post.I'm not Numero Uno by any means.I'm just another contributor.

You could probably join in on the recent threads on fuel variants but I think my suggestions may offer some material for an "equipment selection" discussion. :smile:

  
baub
15:38:21 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

I remember seeing a photo from the past that showed a candle wick stuck in a fish. The fishie was of the oily variety and the oil content was high enough to burn and provide light.
An idea..... Drum roll please!

Take the lowly mackerel. It's an oily fish. You can eat it, feed it to dogs, cats and unruly children. You can light it up legally, squeeze the oil out and use it as a lubricant, vehicle fuel, furnace fuel or skillet coating.
You could conceivably go to Costco, getcha a 6 pack of macks , a box of strike anywhere matches and have a pretty good start on a survival kit. Maybe add some plastic garbage bags and a bottle of special brew to flesh it out.

This is an example of how brainstorming can go off topic, but still provide usable info. Another way of saying you can't organize creativity, merely encourage it.

End of sermon, please pass the plate.

b

Cost benefit ratio is the key point here and I think this is what Baba is concerned with as well as the AK contributors as evidenced by their spreadsheets and comments.

  
bababooey
15:56:29 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

You did state something about dealing with English causes some troubles for you.Keeping that in mind,I thought you must be in a remote area where lard is the most easily available fuel and you want to work with it.

No, I live and work in Europe, and yes, we have also colored Tv.

You said you have run 75 trucks on it for 4 years but you still have problems with inconsistent quality.You also said you require a heater which I assume is a preheater located somewhere between the tank and the engine.

There is a dual tank diesel/fat seperated and a pre heater in the lard oil tank section installed.

Well,that heater must consume fuel as well.I don't know where you are working but I'd have to ask myself,is it cold there? Is this fuel so easily congealed that I have to spend my time prepping both my fuel and equipment to get running and keep it runningI don't envy you.

The engine starts with diesel, when the motor themperature is at normal, the radiator water heats the pre heater in the dual tank. Also the lard fuel pipe tank<>motor

As I said,I don't know where you are but I guess it can get cold in Africa at night if you are there. A ready supply of lard might also be there.

Yes, in some places in Africa it gets cold at night, but thats another story

[Google? about two months ago,maybe 3, 60 elephants were slaughtered in a region of Africa for no apparent reason.No mention was made of the ivory...nor was any mention made of what must have been a mountain of lard it produced. It is for that reason I threw it out there.

this belongs in a kid chat

I see from your comments about me, you were preprogrammed to be offended.Please don't ignore my other suggestions in my post.I'm not Numero Uno by any means.I'm just another contributor.

so, this is just another forum id from you

[2 edits; Last edit by bababooey at 16:02:04 Fri Dec 13 2013]

  
bababooey
16:05:01 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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freight cost

baba,

A couple of details...

Distribution:
There isn't a distribution network for lard/tallow.

So. how do you think, the 7.3Million Tons of inedible animal fat produced 2012 in the States got from a to b? Beam me up scotty.

In general, shipping costs are $1.00 USD per pound. That adds $2204 per metric tonne or 2204/367 gallons = $6.00 per gallon for transport. The actual transport cost will vary.
You´r soooo funny, you just typed in some weird made up numbers, eh

Rail freight from x Oregon to Portland Oregon is $2.45 per 100lbs 2205lbs <> 1 ton <> $53.9
Sea freight Portland Or to Anchorage AK 22.5 ton in a 40f container $192 <> 1 ton $8.53
Rail Anchorage <> Fairbanks 100lbs $8,5 <> $187 per ton
Freight cost $249 per ton to Fairbanks
Freight cost x Oregon to Ca/Whitehorse $211 per ton
Animal fat grade b (low phosphorus tested) costs around $450<>525 plus freigt Fairbanks/Whitehorse
$2.93/2.78 gal at$525 (if we buy 1000-1500 ton it might get cheaper a bit)

Reduced Energy:

Lard/tallow has 28 percent less heat of combustion. The energy provided is lower. The work done is 28 percent less per gallon.

I realy dont know where you get this number! In a common rail engine, besides the heatvalue is almost the same at 60°c. Only the density is different, so we „lose“ 12% per L/kg.

If you are in sub-Saharan Africa where you are surrounded by Water Buffalo and 1000 miles from a Diesel pump, then, yes, lard/tallow becomes an option.

This sentence of you belongs to a kid chat room

Other points relate to acceptable standards of fuel emissions and equipment warranty.
Volvo, MAN, Liebherr, MB and CAT gave their ok in Europe.

If you are using equipment that you accept the risk for improper use,

thats where the reduced service houres come in play

and/or there are no emission standards

in fact, when we use animal oil/fat, we can sell CO˛ zertificates Ca/yukon (I dont think ist different in alaska)

  
bababooey
16:22:20 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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The cost analysis is accurate

The cost analysis is accurate. There may be certain fine points that are not included.
Accurate/certain points???

Look at this example - same deposit

Grade = 0.01 troy ounces per cubic yard.

Spot price of gold = $1250. per troy ounce (refined).

Production = 150 cubic yards per hour. (1500 cy per day)

Requires D8 Cat Dozer, Cat 235 excavator and 4000 GPM water pump with CAT 200 KW power plant to run feed conveyor, stacker and vibrating screen deck.

You never ever work 150cy per h with this equipment. How do you strip the ground? With a D8? How long whill this take? And no wheel loader? Also, the Cat 235 is way to small. And no reseve equipment? Hmmm,

Revenue = 15 troy ounces x $1250 = $18,750. per day.

Cost analysis:

Fuel cost = 100 gallons x $6.00 = $600 per day.

D8 burns about 10-12 gall/h, cat235 8-10gall/h generator 11-14 gal/h, pump 5-8gal/H

Labor cost = $50 each x 4 persons = $2000. per day.

Why in the world are there 4 persons? 1 person D8, 1 person cat235, 1 person washplant, last person? Ahhh I see, thats you, writing in forums via satelite.

Camp budget = $1000. per day.

Equipment amortization $500 per hour = $5000 per day.

Net profit = $10,000 per day.

Everyone takes home $50K each. Pays their own taxes.

$1,000,000 goes into the bank for rubber and the flight home. :smile:

  
bababooey
16:51:55 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

Dual tank fuel pump heated fuel pipes












  
Rod_Seiad
17:46:36 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

Good to see the Mercedes Benz involvement. I think they're the parent company of Freightliner in America. Cummins Diesel is connected to MB, but I lost track of how.

I remember seeing oldtime photos of whale oil fueled paddle wheel steamships. That basic knowledge is still in archives. Our improvements in the oil/horsepower conversion technology has kept pace with society in spite of petroleum.


:welcome:

  
geowizard
18:08:26 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

ah-baloney,

The mining operation cited above was in operation for two years at my mine. The 4th person was the cook and camp supervisor.

No stripping was required on the dragline tailings. The wash plant was designed for 180 cubic yards and operated at 150 cubic yards per hour.

You came to the forum asking for advice.

Diesel has been the fuel of choice in mining and will remain the fuel of choice. Logistics in mining is complicated enough without adding more complexity.

If an alternative fuel offered a cost-effective solution, there are miners and mining engineers with experienced management that would have caught on to your brilliant idea. So far, You have sold it to Rod.

Rod proposed solar powered bobcats on the ICMJ forum.

Mining is controlled by reality - not fantasy.

- Geowizard

  
baub
18:10:38 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

Is this a Volvo or MB engine?

  
Rod_Seiad
18:26:26 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

"Rod proposed solar powered bobcats on the ICMJ forum."--wiz

No, pure fiction. Go back and do your research. It was one of those wizmoments whereby you launched into a triad because I wanted to discuss solar powered mining. The bobcat reality was your confusion.


:devil:









  
bababooey
18:47:31 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

The mining operation cited above was in operation for two years at my mine. The 4th person was the cook and camp supervisor.
So, you are a side cook, thats explains it

No stripping was required on the dragline tailings. The wash plant was designed for 180 cubic yards and operated at 150 cubic yards per hour.
No word on the fuel consumption of your genius accurat analysis?

You came to the forum asking for advice.
Yeah thats true, but I needed only advice on the right mining equipment, I have never workt on a placer mine, but I do know a lot about trucks and large maschienery.

Diesel has been the fuel of choice in mining and will remain the fuel of choice.
Yeah, but when diesel stays @ $6 or 8 a gallon and/or gold prices drop, then more and more mines shut down. Thats the chioce they have without thinking far.

Logistics in mining is complicated enough without adding more complexity.
The tech is verry simple

If an alternative fuel offered a cost-effective solution, there are miners and mining engineers with experienced management that would have caught on to your brilliant idea.
abovementioned

So far, You have sold it to Rod.
Rod proposed solar powered bobcats on the ICMJ forum.

Mining is controlled by reality - not fantasy.
So you have none


And also no word on your weird freigt rates and the 28% minus d/L
In general, shipping costs are $1.00 USD per pound. That adds $2204 per metric tonne or 2204/367 gallons = $6.00 per gallon for transport. The actual transport cost will vary.

$2204 freigt cost per ton, thats $218.196 freight rate for a Cat D11R in your math. Common sense tell 99.99% of people this cant be right.

you are so funny

[1 edits; Last edit by bababooey at 18:49:55 Fri Dec 13 2013]

  
bababooey
18:57:44 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...


Rates go down ca 40% if lard is not in the same category


  
bababooey
19:06:10 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: My comment on your fuel...

@ Baub,..

Volvo

  
geowizard
20:58:17 Fri
Dec 13 2013

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Re: Bears love bacon...


I always get a kick out of listening to fantasy.

BEARS are attracted to the smell of bacon!

One of the best ways to lure a bear into a mining camp is the smell of bacon or any type of animal fat.

I would expect every bear in a hundred miles would find your idea attractive!

Bears tear up fuel containers because of the smell of fuel. I can only image their ripping apart a piece of equipment to get to that tasty lard!

:confused:

- Geowizard

  
overtheedge
05:46:28 Sat
Dec 14 2013

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Re: Bears love bacon...

Geo'
Let it go.
We might have a few disagreements, but I know the costs of shoveling-in and I can plainly see that your cost estimates are well within the realm of probability.


From personal experience, I can state the smell of animal fat is one of the best trapping lures I have found. And in keeping with your assertion about bacon as a bear attractant, a wise person just might ask the question as to "just what sort of animal would be attracted to the odor of initially fresh lard versus a few days/weeks later the reek of rancid fat. Uh and just why? "

But I'm just an old man. What the hell do I know?

Now does anyone have any questions about my assertion that the first questions that need be answered are tenure, character and location? The few assertions seem to be tainted by each person's deposit.

You either understand the actuality of mining or you are just another poser.

Any more questions?

eric

  
baub
15:48:38 Sat
Dec 14 2013

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Re: Bears love bacon...

First you prospect.
Then you pencil whip.
Then you pray.
Then you produce.

Everyone has different ideas, skills, experience etc. One size fits all? Nope.
For me it's simple. Learn everything!

Define the problem as well as possible. The more defined the problem is, the more obvious the solutions or choices will be.
To expand a bit.
Prospect, sample and assemble the data. Run scenarios and flow charts. These often don't go as planned, BUT can give you already examined options that you can plug in as needed for particular problems. Murphys law is the culprit, flexibility is the fix.

Consider the modular concept. Plug 'em in as needed.
Consider options, money available. Under capitalization is the bane of startups. It kills more startups than anything else.
What do I mean by prayer? In addition to the obvious, it means internal focusing. Imagine a path to success and it helps.
Production. Get something working. Correct, modify, expand, contract and change what needs to be changed according to what ever desired output you want. Big confidence builder.
I prefer to start small, but have ended up going bigger than was justified at that stage. Big capital waster.
In the future, I will polish my existing plans and plants in order to reduce maintenance costs and the parts runs etc.
Reading thru the posts, it seems that you have machinery, experience in business and a realistic approach to problems.
A few years back, there was a thread here about "The 75 Ways to Mine Gold" by a British geologist. Good source of winter reading. There's also a 5 volume compilation of mining info from Action Mining in Oregon, USA. Lotsa info and ideas there. Some are out of the box, some not too useful and some velly interesting.
I had a '96 VED 12 and 14 spd syncro trans. Worked well until I had an employee drive it. He trashed it and I canned him.

Good luck and keep us posted.

b

  

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