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dragline
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Are Magnets in Gold Sluices Now Fair Game? Has Clean Gold Patent Expired? ( 17:35:43 SatMar 4 2017 )

Perhaps I am not reading this correctly, but it appears to me that the Clean Gold Magnetic Mat patent expired 5 days ago on 27-Feb-2017. As most of you are probably aware, the lifespan for most US patents is 20 years from the patent's filing date.

Given that the filing date for the Clean Gold patent was 27-Feb-1997 I would hazard a guess that this patent expired at midnight on 26-Feb-2017. If any of you may differ about my opinion please correct me and set me straight.

Here is a link to to the Clean Gold patent in question:
US5927508

For those of you unfamiliar with the Clean Gold magnetic mat you can think of it as an extruded vinyl magnetic sheet very similar to if not identical to any other common magnetic sheet used to back business cards so they magnetically stick to refrigerators. Suffice it to say that the Clean Gold patent and mat strictly dealt with a vinyl magnetic mats ability to attract and retain magnetite (black mineral sands) in such a way as it formed very small ridges of magnetite on the smooth vinyl surface of the mat separated by troughs where gold could could collect and be retained. Neither the patent nor the marketing statements made by the inventor or distributor of the Clean Gold mat emphasized any paramagnetic or diamagnetic effects or influence upon the gold being captured (I could be wrong about this so please correct me if I am wrong).

Assuming that this patent is now expired it should mean that the beach miners and/or other extremely fine gold miners here on the forum might have an interest in making their own magnetic mats similar or identical to the Clean Gold mats. Or, now that the patent has expired miners might consider themselves free to develop other gold recovery technologies based upon magnets but who might have been intimidated by the Clean Gold patent.

Once such magnetic technology that interests me is the use of magnets in a sluice to leverage gold's diamagnetic and paramagnetic properties in a manner that increases fine gold capture and retention in the riffles of a sluice.

Are you interested in learning more about paramagnetism and diamagnetism? Watch this video.
Paramagnetism and Diamagnetism

Of course I am not proposing anything novel here about utilizing magnets to leverage gold's paramagnetic properties so as to increase gold capture and retention in sluices. Here is a guy that is building sluices with magnets in an effort to harness this same exact principle.
Gold Magnets

If this isn't enough information for you about how crazy this subject of gold's paramagnetic and diamagnetic properties can get, try watching this video from Ken Wheeler:
GOLD SLUICING EXTRACTION device using magnetic divergent field geometry

My take away from my research into this topic is that it is important to create as much contrast between the region of magnetic influence to non-influence so as to cause the small particles of gold in the slurry to decelerate in the slurry and then follow and be pulled down the naturally occurring magnetic field lines into a properly positioned riffle eddy. Doing this optimally requires that one place the edge or corner of the magnet upwards or downwards into the slurry at roughly a 45° angle to the flat surface of the magnet so as to project the sharpest component of the magnetic field into the slurry.

Here is my latest attempt at modifying my 4-TPI Sawtooth mat by gluing N35 to N50 magnets to the mat with the corners of the magnets project up into the slurry so as to capture the moving gold particles and pull them down into the riffle eddy immediately below the magnet.



If any forum members have previously made attempts at using magnets in their sluices, or are interested in doing so, or have comments about the Clean Gold patent expiration, please chime in.

dragline

  
WmA
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Re: Are Magnets in Gold Sluices Now Fair Game? Has Clean Gold Patent Expired? ( 01:07:14 SunMar 5 2017 )

I am always interested in thinking outside the box.
Magnetics and how they influence non magnetic materials are an intriguing concept.
[1 edits; Last edit by WmA at 04:21:15 Sun Mar 5 2017]

  
geowizard
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Re: Are Magnets in Gold Sluices Now Fair Game? Has Clean Gold Patent Expired? ( 04:27:33 MonMar 6 2017 )

dragline,

Is the subby morphing once again?

It's getting like Gold Rush - er uhh.. Gold Rush Alaska that wound up in Canada... then Oregon... and then Colorado.

I am really intrigued!

Where are we going next? :confused:

- Geowizard

  
geowizard
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Re: Are Magnets in Gold Sluices Now Fair Game? Has Clean Gold Patent Expired? ( 04:57:20 MonMar 6 2017 )


With reference to patents;

In the past few decades, theoretical physics has taken on a life of its own. Theoretically, anything is possible. Thinking outside of the box when you think in terms of the possibilities of other dimensions that may exist. Are there dimensions where physics works in ways we cannot comprehend? So, it is with recent patents on spacecraft that move through a time - space continuum where anything goes. It cannot be disputed that anything is possible in those other dimensions where only ones imagination becomes the limit to creativity. If a GIF animation proves a concept - then that's all you need!

In the real world, we are bound by physics as we know and can comprehend it. Gold mining and prospecting are real world activities. Sucking beach sand loaded with kelp, shell fish, all matter of debris that washes onto a beach and blowing it into a box isn't going to be pretty!

There are too many possibilities of problems that have to be addressed and that process of pre conditioning, screening and producing a uniform slurry that doesn't suspend gold with the slurry, represents a challenge. In my opinion, the amount of prep and conditioning of the slurry becomes a show stopper. You cannot simply pump everything into the sluice - contained in a box - that you cannot clean out.

Magnetics?

Gold is slightly diamagnetic. With the few futile attempts at using magnetics and oh - yes, the latest you-tube hustles, I would package most of what is out there with snake oil.

The real world involves working methods that are cheap, simple, reliable and repeatable. The methods as a practical matter have to be able to catch gold! Anyone that has spent any amount of time dredging knows how much all of the variables change. The objective is usually a matter of moving as many cubic yards as possible through a sluice box. The objective is not to prove or disprove a science project based on theoretical concepts that offer very low probability of success - let alone offer any practical advantage.

- Geowizard

  
dragline
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Re: Are Magnets in Gold Sluices Now Fair Game? Has Clean Gold Patent Expired? ( 08:27:54 MonMar 6 2017 )

Geowizard,

Would you care to answer the question? Has the Clean Gold patent expired? I don't know what awareness or experience you have working with Clean Gold magnetic mats but I have found they work pretty well for capturing extremely fine Oregon beach gold and I wouldn't mind building and experimenting with magnetic mats if indeed the patent has expired.

Of couse if you have no interest in or see no potential in magnetic mats or using magnets in sluices, why are you posting on this thread? Is using animated gifs, or talking about magnetic mats, or talking about using magnets in sluices forbidden on this forum? Do you concider yourself the official forum police such that you feel entitled to bager any member you want for any reason? Or, are you merely honing your skills as the forum's self-appointed troll? If you don't like the fact that I'm posting topics and asking questions on this forum please have the decency of sending Jim a PM, tell Jim why you believe I should be sanctioned, and then ask Jim to have a talk with me. If I've broken any forum rules with my posts I apologize to all the members here and respectfully ask for an explanation concerning what I've been doing wrong.

Now, back on the subject at hand. Geowizard, please tell me what you know about Clean Gold magnetic mats, or using magnets in sluices, and why you believe that magnetic mats or magnets won't help improve gold recovery in sluices. Other than having, using and liking the performance of Clean Gold mats here on Oregon beaches I have no experience using magnets in sluices largely because of my concrns about patent infringement. Since you seem to represent yourself as an expert on the subject of magnets in sluices please tell us more about why you are so certain that there is no possibility of benefit to using magnetic mats or magnets in sluices when the Clean Gold magnetic mat has a proven track record for providing excellent performance at the recovery of extremely fine gold for many hundreds or possibly thousanss of miners.

dragline

  
geowizard
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Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 14:00:59 MonMar 6 2017 )

dragline,

Please be advised;

I'm not responsible for providing free advice or assisting you in your path of "continued education?". Nor is anyone else for that matter.

A patent DOES NOT keep others from constructing or using an idea or process covered by patent.

A patent offers protection from competition in the marketplace without payment of royalty or license fees.

So, why does it matter what the status of any given patent is?

Why do you suppose I listed the Clean Gold sluice on the TOP TWENTY? :confused:

There has been discussion on that thread about my successful use of magnetic mat. I would recommend that you READ that thread.

In practical terms, the process you have presented thus far, eliminates magnetic mat as an option. You have at least two operations working in series that are diametrically opposed to each other. It will not work.

The sluice requires ONE rate of flow - or velocity, and the elutriation column requires a second - much higher velocity. Adding a magnetic mat to this series creates a third MORE sensitive in-line process.

You haven't shown anything that demonstrates that the box won't simply fill with solids. The solids cannot escape.

Additionally, the slurry works like drilling mud to suspend GOLD. The fine gold you are after will remain suspended.

Everything is working against gold recovery and working against the other processes that require different forces yet are subjected the same forces. By definition, if one process works (has good velocity), the others will not work because the velocity is too low or too great.

Disclaimer:

I am not an Attorney. I don't play one on TV. I offer personal opinion only. Legal advice should be sought from legal professionals licensed to practice law.

- Geowizard
[2 edits; Last edit by geowizard at 17:39:19 Mon Mar 6 2017]

  
Jim_Alaska
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 14:32:41 MonMar 6 2017 )

Both David and Kristina of Cleangold are personal friends.

In response to the question: "Has the Cleangold patent expired?" posted by Dragline, the official response from Cleangold is this: "Cleangold is a registered trademark and our methods are copyrighted so I wouldn't want to see them published on his website."



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Jim_Alaska
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LipCa
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 15:35:07 MonMar 6 2017 )

Without discussing CLEANGOLD methods, is there a patent or just a copyright?


Copyrights

A copyright protects intellectual property as described by the U.S. Copyright Office. Books, plays, music, software, artwork, architectural drawings, maps and similar works are all protected under copyright laws automatically by virtue of their creation. Registration of the work is recommended in the event the copyright is infringed upon or ownership is questioned, but is not necessary under United States and most international copyright laws.


Patents

A patent is a property grant issued to owners of intellectual property, as described by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, usually an invention or certain types of discoveries (mathematical equations and product formulas for example). Patents provide the patent owner “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention in the United States," according to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

  
dragline
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 15:41:59 MonMar 6 2017 )

Jim,

I appreciate that information.

I hope it is okay for me to say that I have purchased and regularly use Clean Gold mats here on Oregon's beaches. For anyone that is interested in working our beaches there are really very few options for dealing with our micron beach gold other than Clean Gold mats. For a lot of situations and conditions I frankly don't know what I'd do without them and I am very grateful to David for producing his Clean Gold mats.

That said I hope that it is okay to entertain discussions of magnetic mats and magnets in sluices here on AK Gold forum if I refrain from employing any trademarked names or copyrighted descriptions pertaining to these aforementioned mats that apparently for which the technology involved are not bound by patent enforcement since expiration of that patent last month.

May I ask your help in understanding David's statements pertaining to trademarks of names and copyrights of methods? I was unaware that methods, per say, could be copyrighted. However, I am aware that written accounts of methods can be copyrighted. Am I somehow off track here? Can methods themselves really be copyrighted?

My purpose in broaching this topic of conversation regarding magnetic mats and/or magnets in sluices was to discuss the potential for further development and innovations expanding upon these technologies if in the case that the aforementioned patent really did expire. Assuming I am not wrong, I believe that it can be inferred from David's statement that indeed his patent has expired.

It seems to me that assuming the forum members can refrain from posting references to trademarked names or copyrighted methods that discussion pertaining to these technologies should be fair game here on this forum. That is, unless, you have a personal bias against such discussions given your close personal relationship with David. Please let me know your preferences in this regard and I will post no further discussions on this topic should that be your wish.

Thanks again,

dragline
[1 edits; Last edit by dragline at 15:52:49 Mon Mar 6 2017]

  
geowizard
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 16:14:39 MonMar 6 2017 )

Your First amendment Right to Expression;

Jim Foley owns this forum.

Jim has been generous to provide an interesting and informative forum with only a few reservations;

Jim has on a couple of occasions expressed that Cleangold NOT be a point of discussion on this Forum.

"NO" means "NO".

- Geowizard

  
dragline
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 16:38:12 MonMar 6 2017 )

Geowizard,

Yes, I understand the definition of the word "NO".

I am merely asking Jim for a point of clarification. Now that the patent is expired I would like to discuss the topics of magnetic mats and magnets in sluices without any further references to the aforementioned and formerly patented mat. I do also understand that the aforementioned mat still has enforceable trademarks and copyrights and I am hoping to engage these discussions while avoiding any infringements upon, use of or references to the aforementioned trademarks or copyrights.

Are you saying that "NO" means no discussions pertaining to generic magnetic mats or magnets in sluices even when there are no references to that formerly patented mat?

Understand that I do not want to discuss that formerly patented mat. I only want to discuss magnetic mats generically and the use of magnets in sluices for the purpose of exploring potential innovations in regard to these technologies.

It seems that perhaps you do not want to see discussions pertaining to innovative technologies here on this forum. I would like to know whether Jim is of like mind with you in this regard. If that is the case perhaps Alaska Gold Forum is not the proper forum for these discussions.

dragline


[1 edits; Last edit by dragline at 16:43:14 Mon Mar 6 2017]

  
Jim_Alaska
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 16:45:07 MonMar 6 2017 )

Dragline, given the tenor of past discussions regarding Cleangold, Geowizard is correct.

I have no knowledge pertaining to patents, copyright, or trademark names. That is why I posted only David's exact quote.

I find it has been difficult to host posts concerning Cleangold simply because they get out of hand. I would like to think that there are no subjects that we cannot discuss here. But if the discussions get into the realm of disparaging posts concerning certain products, persons, or protections of them by name, I will draw the line there.

If you need further clarification, just ask away.



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Jim_Alaska
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LipCa
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 17:16:20 MonMar 6 2017 )

It may be proper to start a new thread on magnets and observe the rules(whatever they may be?) of trademarks and copyrights?


  
Jim_Alaska
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 18:00:31 MonMar 6 2017 )

You may be right Harry. A completely new thread would be appropriate and beneficial.



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Jim_Alaska
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dragline
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 18:04:28 MonMar 6 2017 )

LipCa,

Again, just for the record. I have bought Cleangold mats, have used them in the past and I continue to use them in some situations. I am constantly impressed by the performance of Cleangold mats and I would recommend Cleangold mats to anyone who is working with and attempting to recover extremely fine gold such as we have here on Oregon Coast beaches. I have absolutely nothing but praise for and nothing critical to say whatsoever about Cleangold mats.

I like your suggestion. Now that we have established the facts in regards to the status of the intellectual property rights of the aforementioned patent, trademarks and copyrights, I wholeheartedly agree with you that starting a new thread and engaging these discussions in full accord with Jim's wishes is warranted.

I believe I understand Jim's guidelines for engaging these proposed discussions so for everyone's reference, the topic of conversation of the new thread will be:

"Fine Gold Recovery with Magnetic Mats or Magnets in Sluices"

Furthermore, I ask all forum members to refrain from the use of any trademarked names or copyrighted materials in that thread. Please keep your discussion civil and avoid making inflammatory remarks or arguments. Hopefully we can all comply with Jim's wishes and thereby avoid devolving our discussions into the slugfest that Jim has observed in the past on these topics.

Thank you,

dragline

  
geowizard
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 18:38:52 TueMar 7 2017 )

dragline,

Your reference to a "slugfest" is a mischaracterization of those that may not agree with your presentation. The owner/moderator has made his position clear.

Trade names are and have been used in other threads trough-out this Forum. Certain restrictions apply.

Thank you,

- Geowizard

  
dragline
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 01:26:28 WedMar 8 2017 )

Geowizard,

You misinterpret or misunderstand my meaning. My use of the word "slugfest" had nothing to do with my interactions with other forum members. My use of that word had to do with me or my interpretation of Jim's characterization of discussions in the past as he describes them "getting out of hand", his words, and when discussions "get into the realm of disparaging posts concerning certain products, persons, or protections of them by name."

These words were written by Jim and were referencing discussions about the Cleangold mats. My interpretation of Jim's statements led me to restate his sentiments so as to remind the forum members that in the past heated discussions have frequently occurred involving that mat.

Please understand that I did not use that word with any intended reference to my interactions with other members here on the forum. Of course our interactions even when we disagree are always civil and engaged in an effort to find common ground.

Thank you for your understanding.

dragline

  
geowizard
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Re: Understand what protections a patant offers. ( 04:47:20 WedMar 8 2017 )

dragline,

Thanks for that reply. It clarifies possible misunderstandings.

I also appreciate your understanding of "tone" in discussions being misinterpreted based on choice of words or differences of understandings of meaning of the terms we use while interacting. Although I am sometimes direct or even blunt in my exchange, please accept that it is all well intended and not in any way meant to be personal.

Our community is a relatively small group. Tribal knowledge is important in appreciating long standing friendships between members, moderators and corporate entities. All of that having been said, your contributions are appreciated! :smile:

- Geowizard

  

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