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Honza_Basta
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Easy half way to infinity jet ( 21:02:51 TueApr 11 2017 )

another thought...
Infinity jet is not quite easy to produce. Normal power jet raquires "choke" - reduction of diameter, for example from 50 to 28mm. Now I tryed to make jet from thin wall tube - on one side flattened to inner size 72x9mm - the same area like 28mm round jet. Made in a few minutes. May it work the same or a bitt better like normal power jet? :confused:


  
Bonaro
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 04:12:20 SunApr 16 2017 )

I have spent many hours mentally tinkering with this problem. A normal eductor shoots a round jet of water into the suction tube at an angle of 22 degrees. This ange seems to be the sweet spot so I would maintain that.

What I have wrestled with is the shape of the jet of water. A round jet presents about 50% of it surface to the incoming stream of suctioned material. Your idea would present about 90%, which should yield a significant improvement in suction.

Now when you figure that out, start thinking of how to make it adjustable so you can tune it to your pump and elevation.



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My Dredge Sucks...
 
 
micropedes1
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 15:10:39 WedApr 19 2017 )

The mis-information here bothers me. The optimum angle for educator inflow is between 11 and 13 degrees. Will a jet work if the angle is not at optimum? Yes. But the overall efficiency suffers.

Now, about that hammered jet...will it increase the velocity of the water? Short answer is yes. But I can foresee difficulty in attaching that hammered piece to the main barrel of your jet. The hardest part is attaching it in such a manner as to achieve as little turbulence as possible. High pressure turbulence causes cavitation which decreases efficiency in your jet. Ideally, you would want the cone of your pressurized water to meet in the very center of your educator. That off-centered area of pressurization is why you get bulges in the sidewall of a single jet educator (that and the face that the pressurized water slams cobbles into the opposite die of the tube). Centered jets do not usually suffer from these problems.

And that hammered jet is totally non-adjustable. Better, I think that you should stick to the dual-jet educator with drop-in PVC restrictors that are tapered to accelerate flow. You can taper PVC with a simple file or rasp. And with a slice down one edge, you can size it so that it fits securely inside your pressurized input.

  
Bonaro
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 04:51:36 ThuApr 20 2017 )

Your post sent me scurrying back to my drawings.

Damn...you are correct about the 11degree jet angle. I was thinking about the total angle of a twin jet...I think. Its been a few years since I was working on the jet design and I struggle to remember what I had for breakfast most times so chalk it up to CRS. :thinking:



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My Dredge Sucks...
 
 
Honza_Basta
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 21:04:49 ThuApr 27 2017 )

Quote: micropedes1 at 15:10:39 Wed Apr 19 2017

The mis-information here bothers me. The optimum angle for educator inflow is between 11 and 13 degrees. Will a jet work if the angle is not at optimum? Yes. But the overall efficiency suffers.

Now, about that hammered jet...will it increase the velocity of the water? Short answer is yes. But I can foresee difficulty in attaching that hammered piece to the main barrel of your jet. The hardest part is attaching it in such a manner as to achieve as little turbulence as possible. High pressure turbulence causes cavitation which decreases efficiency in your jet. Ideally, you would want the cone of your pressurized water to meet in the very center of your educator. That off-centered area of pressurization is why you get bulges in the sidewall of a single jet educator (that and the face that the pressurized water slams cobbles into the opposite die of the tube). Centered jets do not usually suffer from these problems.

And that hammered jet is totally non-adjustable. Better, I think that you should stick to the dual-jet educator with drop-in PVC restrictors that are tapered to accelerate flow. You can taper PVC with a simple file or rasp. And with a slice down one edge, you can size it so that it fits securely inside your pressurized input.


I also want to make classic double eductor. But generally I want to make various designs and than check vacuum value.

  
Honza_Basta
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 21:59:11 ThuApr 27 2017 )

My work this evening:











  
Honza_Basta
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 09:16:55 FriApr 28 2017 )



  
growler
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 15:26:28 FriApr 28 2017 )

this is what i have been using. seems to come from a good source.

bill/cr


My "street cred" is I did industrial design and engineering for Treasure Emporium in the early 80's.

The formula for eductor sizing on a jet (not a suction nozzle)

Area of jet tube in sq. inches (2" jet = radius squared x 3.14) which equals 3.14

Multiply the jet tube sq. inches by 7.5% (3.14 x 0.075 = 0.2355). This is the sq. inches of the single eductor. Divide this number by what ever number of eductors you chose to use.

To determine bore diameter divide sq. inches of eductor by 3.14 then take sq. root of that number (Using single eductor as example 0.2355/3.14 = 0.075 Sq root of 0.075 = 0.27 inches - which is the radius of the bore.

Multipy by 2 to establish the diameter in decimal inches. (0.27 x 2 = 0.54 - or slightly larger than 1/2".

The original percent of 7.5% changes for jets 6" and larger to 7%.

The working pressure required would be about 28 psi. Performance falls off rapidly below this number and above 35 - 40 psi nothing gained and above 40 psi performance falls off as well.

Eductor angle to jet tube is 11.5 degrees.

Hope this helps.

  
Honza_Basta
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Re: Easy half way to infinity jet ( 23:05:58 TueMay 2 2017 )















  
geowizard
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Re: Easy way to insanity jet ( 16:43:07 SunMay 7 2017 )

Micropedes said; "The misinformation here bothers me."

Take a close look at any recent or thirty year old suction dredge venturi design.

Is it 10 degrees, 11 degrees, 20 degrees?

Is it 12 degrees from perpendicular? No.

Is it 12 degrees from in-line flow? Maybe - measure it.

Is the venturi a jet? No.

https://keeneeng.com/reclamation-dredge-systems/

Is it a "Power Jet" venturi? Ask Marketing.

Is there advantage in pinching off the flow making a "jet" on the venturi? No.

Venturi designs haven't changed . Why? Because they aren't broken. It's a large tube intersected by a small tube (or tubes) ROUND tubes that form a "Y" at an angle relative to the in-line flow or axis of the large tube.

The energy imparted in the suction created by the water entering the venturi is directly related to the velocity and volume of the pump water at the intersection of the "Y".

- Geowizard

[3 edits; Last edit by geowizard at 16:54:47 Sun May 7 2017]

  
micropedes1
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Re: Easy way to insanity jet ( 22:53:52 MonMay 8 2017 )

I have my doubts of either of these jets working well. The dual jet on the left appears to be restricted too severely. For a 6" jet, the pressure jets need to be 3/4 inch each. These appear much smaller.

The one on the right is questionable too. Pressure inflow enters at roughly 90 degrees to the direction of required pressure flow. This results in a roughly 15% loss. There is no adjustment between the internal and external jet walls. This means that flow continues parallel to the side wall of the outside tube. This flow will entrain a small amount of internal flow, but this will be mostly laminar flow. There MUST be redirection of the jetted water toward the center of the tube to effect a uniform reduction in pressure, thereby creating suction.

Want helpful hints?

  
geowizard
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Re: Easy way to insanity jet ( 13:56:40 WedMay 10 2017 )

I'm not understanding what is being improved and why.

Here's the Keene 6 inch power jet as used on their 6200 suction Dredge. Twin 2" jet logs.



- Geowizard
[2 edits; Last edit by geowizard at 14:02:50 Wed May 10 2017]

  
Honza_Basta
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Re: Easy way to insanity jet ( 20:40:10 WedMay 31 2017 )

Today I made some fied tests... That model with concentrical tubes did not worl enogh. But the other one with jest from hammered tubes sucked like a hell... :devil: I have not a comparision with classical twin jet, I will make it next time...





  
Bonaro
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Re: Easy way to insanity jet ( 06:33:23 ThuJun 15 2017 )

The reason the standard Keene jet is dominating the market is because it is useable out of the box.
An Infinity jet is superior in every way but it must be tuned to your particular pump. The average weekend warrior can't / won't do this.

Yours does not look adustable



---
My Dredge Sucks...
 
 
Honza_Basta
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Re: Easy way to insanity jet ( 20:52:07 SunJun 18 2017 )

Quote: Bonaro at 06:33:23 Thu Jun 15 2017

The reason the standard Keene jet is dominating the market is because it is useable out of the box.
An Infinity jet is superior in every way but it must be tuned to your particular pump. The average weekend warrior can't / won't do this.

Yours does not look adustable


The right one is bad. The left one works great. The point is that the jet is not round, but flat, It sucks great.

[1 edits; Last edit by Honza_Basta at 20:53:01 Sun Jun 18 2017]

  

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