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dredger
09:57:47 Wed
Apr 13 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator


Please note , following 2 pics are close - ups of the shaved backed miners moss, or plastic spaghetti weave matting found in household and industrial door mats, these are a more open weave, and would / could have more compression and ultimately more gold storage area,

First a close - up pic of the scorer / sponge pad, please note the white hair is approx 90 micron,


Next is very closed weave, plastic spagetti weave,

Then the thinner more open weave shaved from the backing,

please note the 90 micron hair in pics,

testing,



Here is a few pics of the compression arms fitted or pivoted by 2 holes in the sides of the box, ,

  
dredger
10:24:51 Wed
Apr 13 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator



Please note, the two arms are pulled together using a push bike brake grip handle, via a cable, and the brake handle has an adjustable screw, this allows me to compress the mating and sponges and hold them there, I had also planed to drill and tap a bolt into the handle to stop the sponge being over compressed, and keep the compressions from a fraction of a inch, to a 1/4 ", or what ever is required, with the view of on a larger scale electric eccentric mechanisms could be fitted,

Closer look at the arms,


testing,

  
dredger
10:39:52 Wed
Apr 13 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Next pic shows the sponge and open weave matting is compressed.


More blar blar coming, back asap. dredger,

Please also note, the mesh and matting are in small squares, the idea is there are 6 squares per lenght of each box, and or 12 sponges , ( all brought from the cheap shop, ),

Each of the 6 squares or compartments will be seperated by a thin plastic sheet, to stop gold dropping deeper into the matting storage area, and migrating down to the end of the box, :confused:.

  
dredger
02:05:20 Thu
Apr 14 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Please note the sponge is compressed to about half thickness,this is not an indication of where or what thickness to begin testing,

The line of thought here is I can simply compress the sponge more, or quickly release it a little, giving me good or many variations of compression for when the time comes to test, please note compressing the sponge will result in water being forced up through the layers of 1, matting, and 2, metal expanded mesh,3. the heavy cons and punched sheeting as shown in above pic,also please note the " brown colored expanded mesh " is pressed to a shape that i believe will direct water " bursts or squats " at an angle, so by turning the the brown fine expanded mesh around I would suggest I will be able direct the water pressure at about 45 degree angle either up or down the box, into and through the matting and expanded mesh, please note the line of thought is the compression stroke might only be 1/16" or maybe bigger or smaller, and may be a very slow or even fast compression, resulting in a strong or weak current or movement of water up and down through the layers of mesh and matting,

At this point I should mention that all this fine tuning and liquidizing of heavy Sg storage areas withiin the mating, ect, in my situation it is my intention to run screened 1mm or 1/25" and under materials , with a focus on recovering under screen size in 3 different type of under screen size categories, chunky , med , fine, using 3 separate boxes ,
.
testing.

  
peluk
01:27:59 Fri
Apr 15 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

I've seen and thought about fluidized beds Dredger but this is all new.The problem is that the information/design concept may be missed by some and it is very novel.I would like to see this under a new heading that concentrates on this development.It is getting too far from the "Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator".It is an design concept that can be used by onshore equipment as well.

I'd even look at the possibility of just hardware cloth over the moss rather than the expanded metal.That way,if you threw flatter specimens up with the pulsing,they would settle back more readily in a flatter flow.If there were a tumbling action overhead,it might pick up those flat specimens and carry them further.
I know there are people here on the beach that use moss over carpet alone but it packs up and requires flushing often.This pulsing,if not too robust,might be just the ticket to a richer concentrate.You could leave the mats in longer.

I am no longer going to use my Proline Big Bankers for recovering large and small specimen gold.I'm going to use them for screening and washplant duty,capture the -1/8" or even -1/16" outflow in tubs and set it aside.Then,I'll work it at a speed and flow appropriate to small specimen recovery.
The old saying that you should move more material if you want more gold makes sense.It only makes sense however if you are doing so because there's not a lot of gold in your material to begin with.You don't want use that method to compensate for losses.

Here's a concept that may be being missed by the mining community.Ebay sales should be a clue.Upgrading material by removing a larger portion of the waste,makes it a saleable item as is.That means,a lot of the coastal deposit here for example could be shipped out as valuable ore in the form of fines for someone else to work.It would be prepped in other words but the man hours to bring it to a finished product would not be expended here.It could go out on barges....or crates.

I knew this would get away from us but your idea looks good to me.It looks like an improvement on a jig.

  
dredger
09:00:16 Fri
Apr 15 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

" you say " I've seen and thought about fluidized beds Dredger but this is all new.The problem is that the information/design concept may be missed by some and it is very novel.I would like to see this under a new heading that concentrates on this development.It is getting too far from the "Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator".It is an design concept that can be used by onshore equipment as well.

dddddddddddd I agree Peluk, I am sure just about any sluice any where or on anything could be easerly and quickly fitted with compression arms, riffles or mesh or what ever, I am sure it would have been of benefit on my 8" dredge,wish i had of thought of it then, haha. and yes I had thought of a new thread when i finally get time to do some testing, for which i need a fresh batch of cons, and new camera, and as this concept is the back-up for a totally different concept for dredging with a excavator, if the first concept does not work , plus I have been working on these boxes for too long, plus the fact I have had one beaut car accident, I just had to before another car gets me, haha,

I'd even look at the possibility of just hardware cloth over the moss rather than the expanded metal.That way,if you threw flatter specimens up with the pulsing,they would settle back more readily in a flatter flow.If there were a tumbling action overhead,it might pick up those flat specimens and carry them further.

dddddddddd, yes, I hear what you are saying, and was thinking,the compression stroke could be relative to the height of the mesh or riffle,or more to the point the height of the working vortex, and tune the stroke height and energy to basically only displace or momentary fluidize the materials at and in the sorting area, at the base of the vortex, so at a guess I would suggest the compression stroke be less then 1/4 to 1/2 distance to the mesh /riffle height being used, my line of thought is Randy Clarkson said that bed armoring would could occur or start occurring with in 12 mins in a riffle at the start of dredging, My experience is that when I start running my dredge, on occasions have had another dredge dredging my tailings, and I have found that in this triple sluice,

Which completely packed up in about an hour, and started loosing gold,
For the new guys my drift on that is natural Armour bedding or bed armoring is when gravels pass or washed over a gravel bed or bar, the flow of the water (start of a flood ), , places finer smaller gravels in between larger rocks, and creates a very hard smooth layer of finely packed gravels, which do not really allow gold and heavy Sg metals to just fall through,in fact most gold will ride /skid, roll over this hard packed skin, Clarkson simulates the same or similar hard packing behind each riffles in sluices, so my focus is on just 1 possible use for this concept, right in and at the bottom of each and most all vortexes, mesh or riffle, ect, where the energy in the vortex scorers the top of the matting,and where the vortex can jamb or fall gold into the matting, and where the amour or had packed occurs, this where just a few short compression strokes with just enough energy to displace or lift the lighter packed Sg's materials only enough to present them to the base or bottom of the vortex, and defiantly as you say not lift them into the upper flows, I agree. ,


I know there are people here on the beach that use moss over carpet alone but it packs up and requires flushing often.This pulsing,if not too robust,might be just the ticket to a richer concentrate.You could leave the mats in longer.

dddddddd I agree,and Actually, this concept was inspired by Nome Beach samples, and yourself as well as many others on this forum, 3-4 years ago, may be we can call this concept,

" THE NOME SQUEEZE "
" THE ALASKAN COMPRESSOR ".

Mmmmmmmmmm, richer concentrate, could be better then $&#.( at our age ),

I am no longer going to use my Proline Big Bankers for recovering large and small specimen gold.I'm going to use them for screening and washplant duty,capture the -1/8" or even -1/16" outflow in tubs and set it aside.Then,I'll work it at a speed and flow appropriate to small specimen recovery.

dddddddd After seeing Kevins ?? tooth size chunky gold to day, I agree mate, keep working on those little chunkies,


The old saying that you should move more material if you want more gold makes sense.It only makes sense however if you are doing so because there's not a lot of gold in your material to begin with.You don't want use that method to compensate for losses.

Here's a concept that may be being missed by the mining community.Ebay sales should be a clue.Upgrading material by removing a larger portion of the waste,makes it a saleable item as is.That means,a lot of the coastal deposit here for example could be shipped out as valuable ore in the form of fines for someone else to work.It would be prepped in other words but the man hours to bring it to a finished product would not be expended here.It could go out on barges....or crates.

dddddddddddd Excellent idea Peluk, Nome Beach sands could be a president for testing concepts, considering the amounts and fineness of Nome Beach gold, and e-bay is a good clue, I like your idea, do it.

I knew this would get away from us but your idea looks good to me. It looks like an improvement on a jig.

dddddddd Thanks Peluk, incentive from such a connoisseur of fine gold like your self is very much appreciated and treasured , and if not an improvement on a jig, perhaps an improvement or open doorway into matting, ( we will never know, if we never go there ).

:smile:
[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 09:26:54 Fri Apr 15 2011]

  
dredger
09:29:47 Fri
Apr 15 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

So the three " inline " boxes would start with the chunky gold under 1mm classification, , recovery, using only just enough energy generated by a " compression stroke ",to only retain chunky shaped gold,and reject as much as possable med and fine floaty shaped gold, ( larger expanded mesh, open weave matting, many layers of mating ,)

Into the middle or second inline sluice, smaller mesh and matting, less and slower compression stroke, slightly reduced box angle, with enough energy to still move the bulk of the fines into the third sluice,

The focus is to eject as much fine gold out of the first chunky gold storage area,first box, my line of thought and suggestion is that where fine and course gold are in the first stage of fluidized, the fine gold will get under the bigger gold, and lift the larger gold,,

A test scenario might be to load the the first box with screened chunky under 1mm gold, then run fine gold, I would suggest after some time the finest gold would work it's way under the larger gold, especially in or if the matting and gold storage area, is alive and moving, (gently) all or most of the time,

I would also suggest " if " this concept works, after alot of testing,the end result will be increased gold storage, longer time between cleans outs , and less percentage black sands to gold percentage in the cons at the end of the day, or experienced with a standard non-compression, while still having the labour / time required to dissemble clean and reassemble mesh/ matting,

Back asap.

  
dredger
06:06:18 Tue
Apr 19 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Yep ,lost another one,:confused:.

So, from the start, again, the line of thought is to develop a concept, that can be used differently in different situations, mainly because the mechanism ( compression arms ) is greatly variable, matting and mesh sizes,

Concept being, compression of the matting, and sponge, to " liven -up " the matting ", ( hopefully to settle the heavier Sg's ) and with a " accurately adjusted " ( stroke and rate of compression )on the sponge to force water " up " through the matting to help lighter Sg's be represented to the base of the vortex, and ejected,

First possible application, simply use the concept,just a few gentle compressions to settle the heavies, at the end of a batch, and before clean out,to basically and gently float off the dirty water and silt,
Second , is to use the compressions of a few compressions to settle the heavies in the matting, say, every 10 mins during the day, or half days work,to keep settling the heavies in to the matting,
Third is to use the compressions full time, or while your are run materials,

Please note , the line of thought is those compressions strokes are ( guessing, ) 1/4 the height of the the thickness of the mesh and matting,

Now changing the compression concept to a different situation, not a flowing sluice, with a flow of water carring the gravels, not that,

Using the same box, to process " wet milled or wet classified gravels ", wet like freshly mixed cement,

In this application,The box is " level ", the compression stroke and energy is increased, the stroke is ( guessing ) 1 and 1/4 the height of the mesh or riffle, ect, and the focus is the create a strong " fluid bed in the matting and just above the mesh or riffle level " , please note , all crushed / milled or river cons are classified,and the classification is relative to the height of mesh, ( thickness of matting, would be relative to how many hours of processing is required,). and further " stroke and energy tuning could be requried as the heavies build up in the storage areas,/ mating,
The scenario could be, three boxes in line and laying flat, the first box, is meter feed with a wet cement consistency, the "inlet " or beginning of the box is blocked and the meter feed slurry just builds up as it is affected by the strong Fluid bed, ( please note, the pulsing water squeezed from the sponge as it compresses,or is compressed, )will lift or fluidized the layer water and materials, on and above the mesh, ), please note again, the water being displaced due to the compression will be directed vertical, please also note with use of a particular expanded mesh in the above pics, the vertical force of water can be learned forward , or backward to the flow, the line of thought here is if the compressed water flow is directed towards the out let of the box, It may cause the lighter Sg's to move fast towards the rear of the boxs,
Another option my be over the length of the one box, or over the 6 separate mesh and matting square sections in each of the 3 boxes, (18 square section in total,). It may be interesting to use the directional mesh to test different ideas,
1, to direct lighter Sg's out of the box, quickly or at a rate of production that is viable,
2, to direct the fluidity back up the flow, so the when the box angle is increased from level to a few degrees , the direction of the fluidity again becomes vertical, while the box is on a slight angle, which may be the key to good flow and production through the box,????,
3, is perhaps to alternate each section to flow towards the outlet, next section is reversed,
4, perhaps it may be worth testing on or in a tilted back box, and increased compression forces, ??. but I think it is worth testing if not to just prove there is no advantage, ,

Oh Yes again, my line of thought is " fluidity " is at all times a fine tuned compression and energy / mechanism, focused on the separation of heavy bulky fat chunkiest Sg's from all other lighter Sg materials, while maintaining a low pertange black sands in the mechanism " in the first box, each 6 separate sections of gold storage, are tuned to retain heavy chunkier and reject flat flaky , and fine gold,black sands ect, to the second box, the second box is tuned to handle reject black sands and fines, and retain flat flakes small chunkiest, third box is tuned to again rejects black sands and hopefully recover all fine gold,

Please also note, the above boxes are a scaled down proto type concept that I hope i can scale up to large enough to handle dredging with a excavator mobile wash plant,, also please note, the above size screens , meshes and mats would be used for a under 1/25" screened materials, it would be my intention to process or sluice all 1/25" up to 1/8" washed gravels in a slightly scaled up in size mesh and matting sizes, as well as slightly wider box, and slightly more energy,deeper water, ect, and again scaling up for 1/8" to 1/2" screened gravels, and up again to 1/2" to 3/4", multideck sluices for bulk sluicing situation is required,

Next would be cleaning or the quickest way to disassemble , clean the mats, and reassemble, of which i have few ideas, and the reason why this concept is second choice primy processing unit for the dredging with a excavator ,,first choice coming soon,few ideas and a few pics,

Also, I was thinking, about , ?? how many options there might be when fitting the sponges matting and mesh layers, I could start with the standard metal mesh layer on top of say miners moss layer or layers, and on top of the sponges,

Or I could test several layers of metal mesh to create a deeper hole in the mesh, resulting in a deeper vortex and distance to the matting for that mesh size, and I suggest that compressing and releasing several layers of mesh, would resulting in the or each alloy mesh layer moving in relation too each other , and hopefully creating moving peripheral case for the vortex to form, and maintain that energy constantly, and over the operating period, , and not allow any packing up ,perhaps several layers of matting for a large gold storage, and the sponges, ??. just ideas.

Another test might be several layers of mesh, and no matting except the fine matting attached to the sponge /scourer material, to do small batches of cons, and cut down the percent of black sands, when doing small batches of cons, ?? ,
back soon,.

  
peluk
17:36:14 Tue
Apr 19 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Here are some thoughs on your concept,Phil....
1)Often the idea of vibration in a sluice is suggested as a way of getting heavy specimen gold to settle or even small specimen gold.I think it merely packs the sluicebed.This sponge layer and moss and screen guard w/compression arms would be the way to lossen the bed of black sand and garnet.This looks promising.
2)Will the sponge layer be able to be flushed of fine gold thorougly?I don't have any handy but I wonder,would manufactured sponge burn to an ash capable of panning at season's end....or does it melt into a blob?

3)Reflecting on your optional layer of stacked screens on the moss, over a sponge bed in a smoother flow...I wondered about weak points in the idea.One would be the joint between sponge sections.They could be cut to interlock as in siding strakes(house construction).The side of the sponge against the sluice wall would depress inward with the compression stroke.It could be cut with an interference fit to compensate.
4)Now that you've mentioned the tentative timelapse between compression strokes,I see there is a span.I see as a possible alternative this possibility, especially since the compression device is complex.
The sluice bed would be bounced by an eccentric device.Suspended just off the screens would be a weighted screen with downward protruding bridge spike heads.The sluicebed would be bounced by the eccentric and the spike heads would punch the screen surface as it comes up to meet them.The sponge bed would send a pulse up and your action would be mimicked,with a slight variation.
In a simpler form,the bed could have weights on the screens but you'ld have to be able to get them to bounce.That would be a task.

Generally,for me,I see the sponge base with its capability to induce a pulse through the bedding as the major feature of your idea...no matter how it is achieved.

This could be tested with blacksand and silt to see how it flushes to begin with.This problem has puzzled me and your idea is very exciting.

  
dredger
11:25:07 Wed
Apr 20 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

( 1 )Very interesting, and I agree vibration or a constant vibration as well as the natural phenomena of Armour bedding quickly increases packing,and of course the gold rolls or skids right over packed gravels, however another thought might be a intermittent shock wave,but an low energy shock wave would be quickly adsorbed in wet gravels, :confused:.
I like the word loosen alot,, rather then fluidized, if the gravels are loose or loosened, the gold will keep falling, loosenized, loosening, ?? someone should chisel that on a stone somewhere,
( 2 ) yes the sponge looks good, fines will get into the matting scorer part, and the sponge really only likes water ,so no fines really get right into the sponge, my line of thought is to flush the scorer matting is to place it scourer side down in a pan and just compress the sponge a few times, it appears the the water fills the sponge when submersed, when I compress the sponge with my hand, forcing the water down and through the scorer matting, blasting anything in the matting into and on to the pan base, I am thinking or remembering that they would not be a problem until they got real old maybe then they might be worth burning, I am unsure of the abrasive material attached to the fine matting, but the fine scorer matting is plastic,
here isa pic,

Again the hair is about 90 micron, so the plastic scorer matting could be about 60 micron, and yes melted plastic blobs do burn away slowly, so burning a sponge I think you might end up with a lot of black soot, and some fine scorer grit at about 7 Sg, for your interest I use sponges when cleaning or basically sucking the water away in the front section of the boxes, basically if there was fine gold there, I did transfer any last b/s and the gold by sucking onto the sponge,then straight in a pan full of water,couple of squeezes and back for the next lot, it was not so much the picking up of the gold, it was get all the grit out so I could get the riffle rack back in, easier, also I think my backed open weave sapgeti matting is easy to clean then miners moss, since I cut / scraped the solid/ thick plastic backing off, it is really no trouble to wash, another something that might interest you was as the gold dropped through the screen, and was split to the top of the side boxes, the flow was fast, and occasionally left some pickers when I shut down the dredge, sometimes ya could see pickers moving slowly, so I used or rubbed the alloy floor of the sluice in the picker path with the scorer at a off 45 degree angle to the flow, which sort of directed the pickers or a lot of pickers out of the main flow, sort of a party trick, but it was nice to see some nice clean ( no b/s )pickers piled up when shutting down the dredge,??. or running clean water.

( 3 ) Ok, the joint in between the sponges, or the 2 sponges in each of the 6 separate sections, for each box, I thought i would cut lengths of a thicker plastic bag, or plastic off a shirt box, then heat to fold square so each short length, 1 sponge long, and the depth of the sponge matting ,and short vertical end layed on the back of the previous section, and along and under the sponge, to basically stop gold traveling between the or each sections with a vertical thin plastic sheet, I am thinking a stiff plastic sheet would stay tight enough not let gold travel between gold storage sections,and you are right, stopping the gold what ever size from migrating to the end of the box, and into the next box is a critical factor in the concept,
I thought the sponge expands under compression and would rub more on the box wall, ??. and I would also suggest that the new guys please note, my line of thought is in a jig situation, the surface of the flow, is usually choppy , and rough, due to the water displacement or jigging action,, where I believe with this concept, the surface of the flow should be relatively smooth,and relative to the depth and height of the mesh / riffle, and not choppy, due to the fact the matting and mesh are compressed up and down through the water, at a lower level then the flowing surface, meaning, the water level running through the sluice will not rise or fall with each or any compression stroke,, whooo, :confused:
( 4 ) I hear what your are saying with a punch, but punch means or could mean knock out, and I want to go with what you said before, Loosen , so I am thinking " gentle massage loose " to keep the gravels in the live sorting cresent at the bottom of the vortex, and the gravels in the matting very loose, with a slow massage, and slow short stroke, with a or the right compression energy to compress the the water in the sponge,up though the 1, scorer matting,2 some or several layer of matting, with a up lifting force,to or that clearly and accurately targets below and above 12 Sg, and basically has enough force to lift or keep loose gravels ( highly classified ), with a low Sg, and not really Hinda High Sg materials from settling,
Also please note, I am referring to this concept, which is really all about classification, and the or my theory of the / a vortex, as a specific gravity separator, V= D/a, or vortex = diameter / acceleration, which i suggests leaves out the very relevant bits about size or classification,being relevant to the diameter and acceleration of the vortex,to "expect maximum accuracy possible" to start with, which then is very relevant to the last part of the this concept, Compressor ,The distance of the stroke, and the energy required to gently lift just a little lighter Sg materials,at the base of the vortex, (prevent packing,) but not enough energy or lift to hinda heavy Sg materials from settling down further into matting gold storage areas, which are also continually alive, or even perhaps only come alive for a few compressions every ?? 5 or 10 mins, BUT, PLEASE NOTE,

Sorry mate, back asap,phil.

Ps, I will leave the below words to remind me to finish what I was saying,


The above box has been reclassified, which means I have had time to think about previous

  
peluk
18:41:20 Wed
Apr 20 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Corrections noted,dredger.I forgot the scouring layer on the sponge.Whether the sides of the sponge that butt against the sluice force outward or bend inward at the top edge can be observed in a dry run in the R&D stage.

I'll watch it develop.

  
dredger
23:49:53 Sun
Apr 24 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Hey Peluk, thanks for reminding me I left out a few thoughts and pic,,



The above pic shows hair laying on 90 micron stainless mesh, my line of thought is use perhaps a 20 micron stainless mesh on top of the scourer material,or just 20 micron mesh on top of the sponge materials, no scourer material, and or to really restrict the size of silt that can get below the matting, and into the sponge, and building up,I am still looking for fine perforated material like thin metal or thin plastic perforated sheeting too.to test, again I think even 20 micron wire mesh would have or allow good water flow, and restrict fine b/s from passing / falling into the sponge, I am glad you picked up on that mate, thanks, .

Please note, if the concept or part of the concept is to accurately increase the gold store area in the matting by periodically releasing the overall tension on the over all compressor arms, ( while still maintain the same compressor stroke, )I am guessing to start testing, the compressor stroke might be 1/16 " and to increase gold storage area in the matting, adjust over all arm mechanism UP say 1/4 to 1/2" , ??, something like that, leave both restriction bolts the same distance, then adjust both or one of the screw adjustors on the cable, which will basically just raise the the mesh layer and although more room in the matting,also please note the above pics compressor mechanism has one adjustment screw integrated or molded into the handle, it was my intention to drill and fit another screw to accurately restrict to travel of the handle, that would be the 2 compression stroke travel restrictions, and the 2 other adjustable screw on the CABLE are the height control, plenty of adjustment in both,

I agree the ? seal from the sponge to the box wall should be tight, less gaps ,less silt, so I will make a note,good advise, here , " all future prototype sponges should be wider then the box, and squeezed in to provide a tight seal ", ohh, speaking of seals it was mt intention to fit a say 1/4 beveled plastic C channel "around " each mesh sheet,plastic weld the 4 corners,fiddly but might be worth it for a good seal,and slid, i hope,also another thought is a plastic beveled edge, may cause a gap in between layers of mesh, the gap would be squeezed and flexed with each compression and hopefully gently cause the heavies to settle and displace lighter materials,

Sorry mate.gotta run, back asap, phill/

  
dredger
22:22:02 Sun
May 15 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Bump. excycling new idea cooking, back, asap. dredger.:smile:.

  
dredger
05:08:15 Thu
Jun 9 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Sorry that idea developed a snag, that I just can't think of a solution, I have been exceptional busy, in toooo deep actually, :smile:.

Never the less, I am trying to do some sketches to explain the snag, I really do want to develop this concept, because it will be a a lot quicker to clean the matting, in fact it will be auto cleaning, as opposed to cleaning to many sq feet of matting, used in the previous compressor concept,

Any way, I will try to get some sketches and pics to show the " snag " , Sorry, back asap.

  
dredger
22:20:03 Fri
Jun 10 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Just thinking out aloud, and in circles.

The previous " compressor " concept, I wish I had on my last 8" dredge, " side boxes ", and if i ever set up another 8" dredge with a classifying screen again, I will use that concept, to keep the matting just fluid to maximize gold storage capacity., and I was looking, well actually finding "all" the boxes pictured above, so maybe I might get a chance to test it, ??.

My focus remains on a basically water flowing sluice,? table, that I will not have to worry about cleaning matting ect,

Please note, matting used as a gold storage device, has to be remove, cleaned and replaced, and my focus is high speed materials handling, requiring, ( don't worry I am just talking " my self " into this, ),and it is getting complicated, ), a automatic cleaning factor, so, no matting, but still using the or a vortex and small gold storage area, as the main concept gravity separator,or V= D/A, ( Vortex = Diameter / Acceleration, Acceleration meaning the velocity of the water spinning in the vortex, and also always relative is my line of thought, is V = D/A is always relative to the classification " size " of the pay gravels sands, meaning to me, the smaller the classification, the smaller and less energy the vortex should be required, but still not forgetting that " overloading " of Black sands, will effect the velocity of the spinning water, vortex, I would suggest small % of BS would effect the velocity in some way, and over loading with BS would effect the velocity in a greater way, as well as the over all amount of gold per cubic yd being processed in each cu yd,

As well, there is high speed materials handling factor 2-3 x 30 ton excavators and a mobile processing unit ( floor space 3 x 40 foot containers, ) plus, so far my line thought is " not so much " the target number of cu yds per hour, but how many seconds I can maintain 1 cub yd Per second, meaning, 1 cu yd of materials would be forced into the mobile processing unit, the unit may have a say around 30 cu yd capacity, ( suggesting high speed or quick classification 9 seconds, and sluicing, 17 seconds, 3-4 seconds to extrude or eject processed materials), resulting in many cu yds of processed concentrates would have to be removed from the processing unit per hour, while moving,

And back on subject, many cu yds being sluiced over a large area of many sluices, for each classification, in ?? 17 seconds, suggesting some points of interest, 1 , being the length of sluice will be relative to the angle and velocity of flow for each classification,

Sorry to late, and tired,will post , back asap,

Ps, reminder to me, Auto cleaning factor, and reducing sluice surface area required, with auto cleaning factor,for each classification, and the idea that tuning the auto cleaning factor to the gold present in the or any particular area may further reduce the total Sq or area of sluice required,

Also hold thought for near future clarification, on the second hand movement on a watch face, focus on the hand moves from one point to another, every second, 60 points at which the arm stops each for one second, then moves to the next point,

:confused::devil::smile:

Hope everyone is having a good day,

  
dredger
23:24:18 Mon
Jun 20 2011

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Sorry , I am nearly dead, but not quite,

Back ASAP, dredger.

Ps, Swiss coming down under, - Oct -Dec, let the good times roll.

Psss, oooh, Son,s Wedding around then,??.:confused:.

  
dredger
15:00:57 Thu
Jun 30 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Ok, sorry bussy as, Can not help it , and perhaps I will be off line, 3-6 months, July 7, ??.

Auto cleaning, and the movement of a second hand on a watch face, ??, well the watch face is relitive to the rotation,or direction of the conveyor belt, meaning a conveyor type set of riffles, please imagine, a sluice, with riffles,working with water / gravels flowing down, and the riffles move back down the sluice, as if and because the riffles travel as part of a conveyor belt, concept, the line of thought is as the conveyor riffles or vortexes move back down the sluice, and reach the end or specifically just before the end of the conveyor / riffle section, there will be a gap, where the concerntrated cons recovered in the riffle / vortex / gold storage area, would drop through the gap, into and out of the flow. gold storage tanks and be transported, as gold, with the minimum none gold gravels " percentage ", so if the gold percentage in the gravels ( per square yard are low ) the conveyor riffles travel slow to ensure the vortex and gold storage are basically full of gold before they reach the gap, and drop out, if the gold in the gravels is a high percentage, the speed at which the riffles /gold storage areas move is increased,perhaps the speed of the riffles/ vortex /gold storage could or might increase and decrease as the excavators dig from left to right, of the gold run,

So the line of thought is , gravels / gold , all and only chunky or fat , say, 1 mm to 3 mm, or 1/25" to 3/25", no under 1mm, grit or dirty water, no flat flaky , focus is chunky and fat, riffle or conveyor section /lenght say about 10 feet, maybe 3 feet wide, at first guess, inbuilt 6" or maybe less, 3" wide/long slick plate deck, suggesting 20 to 40 riffles exposed to the flow over or along 10 feet lenght,each moving back down the sluice /flow,toward the gap, so by adjusting or tuning the speed of the conveyor riffles,moving to the back or down the sluice,will give control over the percentage of the gold / none gold gravels that drop through the gap,

Another consideration is when the run, of gold, stops or jumps, and there is no or very little gold percentage, the conveyor or speed of the conveyor should stop. food for thought.

I like this line of thought, please note, 1am and very sleepy, will ponder more,

Note to self, water filter or high velocity particule seperator, inline, not relivent to the flow velocity.stop / start, ??, back asap.:confused:.:smile:'

  
dredger
14:01:29 Thu
Jul 7 2011

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Ok, Photobucket will not let me copy and paste, and I am not sure if they will let me put sketches up. either.??. and i am still busted for time, and 7 July moves to 29 july, maybe take a rest from it all. ???.

So the thinking out loud has moved from a conveyor line of thinking, to a back ward / forward motion, still has a slick plate in front of and behind each riffle / vortex /Au storage area,at this point i tried to post some of my old red sluice pictures, , and specifications and some further info, but photobucket will not co-operate, so I will refer to a stand back eye view of a sluice,so imaging a 10 foot long section of a 30 foot long sluice, I remove the 10 foot long right angle riffle rack, and sweep the floor of the box clean, then place boards across the flow, I use say ??, a 36 mm gap, ( 1" and 11/25", )the gravel classication is 1-3mm ( 1/25 - 3/25". ) gold gravel, no under 1mm,already has been classified out,
{{{ Ok, my formular / best guess for the gap or distance between the front slick plate and rear slick plate is 12 times the size of the classification,
under 1mm or 1/25" classifcation gravels is mulitiply by 12, = 12mm or 12/25",gap between slick plates,
1-3mm class gravels is x 12 = 36mm or 1 and 11/25". gap between slick plates,
3-8mm class gravels is x 12 = 96mm gap between slick plates,
The line of thought is to only sluice 1- 14mm classified gravels, each classification having larger and larger gaps and specifications,}}}
Please note, 2 relivant points here, 1, being please do not forget I am trying to crame in a cub metre per second into the processing unit, ,meaning maybe 1/4 - 1/2 cub meter of gravels with in the above classications of gravels have to be sluiced ,possable solution being the " new " back / forward motion, concept ,line of thought, ( new ), basically, yesterday,

So back to laying say 3" wide x 1" boards, across the flow ,in the sluice box. where the original rack of riffles lay, I say boards because wood or fine grain wood would suffice for testing, and hard wearing plastics or metal for high production, the boards / slick plate would wear quickly considering the joke about 1 cub meter per second, Guidline,
So the cross flow board sections are gapped at 36mm, and attached to each other, and able to move / slid backward say about 1/2", slowly, the line of thought here is the heavies laying in the gold storage area, will be slowly pushed back and forth to increase gold settling possabilties, and supposing that works, there could be a suggestion of increasing the back forth motion, ??
:confused:
might actually settle or sort the heavies ?? quickly, in the gold storage area,by basically rolling, ?? or pushing the cons over the floor of the box, again supposing that works,and supposing after much testing, and due to a few other factors, I can fairly accuratly know, when , or calculated when that gold storage area was full or perhaps 75 percent gold,25 percent B/S, I could then pull the slick plates back a further 3/4 " and place the gold storage areas over slots cut into the floor of the box, the heavy cons / gold drop through as well as being flushed through the slot and drop into manifolds, and piped or screwed away, and the slick plates move forward, and close /seal the slot, imediatly begining the slow back forwad motion, ?.

Sorry gotta sleep back as asap, as I can ,

  
dredger
13:32:36 Tue
Jul 12 2011

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Ok. supposing that works,

I will need a way to know when the storage areas are high % gold small % black sands,

So please check out the previouse page and note the diagram showing a shaking chute feeder with water blowing the lighter Sg gravels off the heavier Sg gold, also please note I forgot to explain the figures 6-7-8 in that sketch, ( Sorry about that, )

No6 is a camera, directed on to the exposed gold,
No 7 is or a computer receiving the pictures,
No 8 is a light on a light board, that will grow brighter when when or as more gold became visiable, the line of thought is a camera for each shaking chute, for each classication,about 5 cameras and glowing lights mounted in the operators cabin, hope fully this will aid the operator in knowing roughly how much gold and what classifcation he is actually load and sucking into the processing unit, as he works across the run,

Also, I am thinking if that works, just supposing that works, , I might be able to programe the computer, to empty the gold storage areas as well as glowing a light, ??. :confused:.

So guessing that works the or a scenerio could be, the camera sees most of the gold,as it passes/shakes it's way down the shaking chute, and storage areas are close to full. calculates how much gold it sees, and knows when to pull back and empty the storage area, again if that might work, I can further b/s and suggest this would greatly reduce the surface area of the sluice, ect, maybe empty , and see and know when to empty the gold storage areas, quickly, maybe every 2 minuties, or 8 minuties, maybe the total gold storage area, could be a thousand grams, and take 4 mins to recover, concerntrate, and clean the gold storage areas,, ??. and requier only a small surface area compared to mat and mesh recovery, just guessing and thinking outloud,

I hope to discuss the camera / programmed computer ideas with someone very special, in 3 days,??. and 12 hours drive, LOL.
Back asap.

  
dredger
01:29:23 Tue
Jul 19 2011

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Done it. back asap, dredger.

  
eightymesh
16:22:49 Tue
Jul 19 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

just a thought

first off take a look at these scales they would occilate much like a fishing spoon in the flow and with the crowned shape would self clean allowing heavies to crawl back under leaf to the sponge





one source for scales and chainmail

caution: there are damsels

http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=84&cat=Scalemail+Supplies&websess=52356585316066

one more brain fart was either using fire place curtain or chain mail




:devil:

  
dredger
13:30:31 Sat
Jul 23 2011

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Very interesting Eightymesh, very, scales ontop of chain mesh,sponge,??.
occilating,my line of thought is the gravels should classified and only under 1 mm, supercons, maybe a clean up sluice table, ??. larger gold might not slid back under, again just guessing,but iI like the idea. occilate the scales differently to the chain mail, perhaps resulting in a fluid gold storage areas, between the scales and the sponge.??.

The occilation might loose effect after perhaps the 3 rd row of scales due to b/s build. perhaps not,?.perhaps every 3 rows of scales would have to be occilated independently, ?.

Water flow may have to be slow, ( no vortex action required ?).

Scales appear to me to be concave, ?, but i have old eyes,

Ok got back from trip and as soon as I got there wireless usb crocked it, so I cannot show links,( I am on a friends computer) but did have discussion concerning programming a computer/camera to 1, recognize a moving run of gold, ( shaker feeder ) and determine if there is allot , or very little, and glow light to show how much, 2, program computer to record the flow or run of gold. And clean/open gold storage areas, according to total amount of gold passed in front of the camera / computer, for each classification,

Now, sticking point here is i am focusing on 1 say 2-3mm classification, and a recovery vortex concept that is or has a high vortex velocity, and targets only chunky fat gold of the above classification, all fine and or flaky are rejected, and move down the flow /sluice to their own recovery section, and the sticking point here is that this high vortex velocity concept with the back forth motion gold storage areas that enhance further sorting and concentrating with in the gold storage areas, suggesting that the number of vortex/ riffles could be reduced to one, and that gold storage area, be cleaned every few, ?? 5 seconds or 10 seconds, then concern is overloading more then one storage area, in order to allow more gold to more further down to the next riffle, that is provided the high velocity vortex concept is 100 percent effective, ????> have to think about that some more,

If that works, ?,, please note, there would be around 5-6 classifications, 5-6 shaker feeders, cameras, glowing lights and, independently operating cleaning/opening gold storage areas, for each 5-6 classifications /sluices, if that could work, :smile:

By this time, the two 30 ton excavators would have been modified / and act in a much faster and more force, then the standard, a bit stronger in the actual digging and filling the bucket and alot faster in moving the bucket to the hopper and back to digging position, so , so production should also increase,??,

Sorry back asap,

  
dredger
23:13:09 Tue
Aug 16 2011

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I am trying, bussy as. back asap.:smile:

  
dredger
13:10:56 Mon
Sep 26 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

So, the line of thought is to extract a good concentrated con, as the gold storage areas fills with gold, please note,by concertrated con, I surpose I would mean ? say %50 gold and %50 b/s, with a focus on extraction of cons, or emptying the gold storage area as it reaches 50/50 cons,( with tuning, I hope maybe 80/20, who knows yet what a camera and a computer can do, ??.)
Now to try and guess the total gold storage areas required, total sluice surface area, I would suggest 2 factors, first the above and it ability to extract or drop the cons quickly, ( still guessing,) say the storage areas could be emptied in or at intervals of say 5 minuties, down and to say ? 10 secs, that will be up to the computer,so the whole operation is finely tuned, and production ( at times ) is 1 cu yrd per second, ( in short bursts, ) of 10secs to 20 mins to :confused: depending on the gravel beds, ( for the new guys at this point, the thought that river gravel beds are soft easy digging if there are not too many big rocks, ), so in a 10 sec burst hopefully aound 10 cu yds of good paying gold run gravels are recovered, at say average 3 grams to the cub yrd,average, in a scenario 3 gram per cub yrd location,suggesting a 30 gram gold 30 grams ( roughly ) b/s, suggest 60 gram cons storage required, that can drop the whole storge in 10 secs, guessing, dreaming, over 5-6 sluices with each classication, a point here is the gold storage areas would be dropped into a large storage tank or container, so the frequency at which the storage areas are emptyed can be very quick, the storage tank or container would be monitored by the computer,

Note to self, on an attempt at a concept of " high speed screening ", 5-6 screens, a drawing would be great, except that I do not currently have time, but the picture in my head looks good.:smile:basically 2 moving parts, and very variable, and a RPM RANGE OF ABOUT 10 either way, clock wise and ant-clockwise, hope i can come up with a quick way of explaining concept soon,back asap,:smile:

Put a smile on ya dial.

  
dredger
00:59:53 Thu
Oct 20 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Ok please note, a VERY rough sketch , contains no sketches of feeders ,hopper, mounting points, ect. upper left, TROMMEL BAR SCREEN, 15’lenth x 18” id dia , is basically a flat grizzly screen as we know it , rolled or built , into a revolving trommel concept, and rotates ( screen gaps sizes, Perghaps 1” x 15’long, down to 2/25”x15’long ) about 5 trommel grizz bar screens in total, so this T B S concepts focuses on under 1” gravels, already classified down to 1”, all over size size say 1” will be classified and processed dry/wet, No sluice, and fine silt, muddy water, light Sg materials will be washed “ off “ before gravels enter the TBS screens, hopefully .
Middle right is an “ orga “, ( large post hole digger type orga ) perhaps around 17” ? 16” od dia, the orga is around 15’ in length, The idea is THE FLAT GRIZZLY SCREEN CONCEPT , IS rolled/built into the trommel bar screen concept, in the hope that revolving the screen will present ?? “ more clean or cleaned screen gaps to the gravels, with an option and suggestion to speed up the presentation, also possibilty
The idea of the orga, is, 1, force / push/pull. gravels or rocks that may jamb in the screen gap,along the gap, ( 15’ )and out of the trommel.
2, is to control the velocity,speed / volume of the gravel travelling through the screen,
3, present more materials to the screen surface,
Please note the trommel bar screen will rotate, I would build it to turn clockwise and anti-clockwise, as well as the orga build to run clockwise and anti-clock wise,variable speed, 1-15rpm, guess,
As well as being fully adjustable angle on the trommel, ,5+ degree either way of level. as well as changing which end of the trommel the gravels enter and leave, ( under size hopper/manifold not shown in sketch.
The idea being to “tune “ the right angle, rpm, gravel flow direction, for the fastest classification, possible,,

Sorry, I can't get the sketch from photobucket,working on it, back asap, dredger.

  
dredger
04:51:42 Sat
Dec 17 2011

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator



Finally,

  
dredger
14:26:20 Thu
Jan 5 2012

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Blue circles indicate roller wheels, which allow the trommel to spin, no covers or superstructure are shown in the diagram, also please excuse the orga diagram, it does not look much like an orga used as a post hole borer,

So the line of thought is a normal type trammel, thick wire screen or perforated /or rolled punched plate screen, standard as used in the past and present, "trommels" , say perhaps 6'dia,20' long, , from memory the gravels travel around/rolls around inside the screen until it finds a empty hole in the thick wire mesh, or punch plate, and the undersize gravel falls through, or a slightly bigger rock gets jammed, following gravels either pond it through the hole, or jamb it solid, ??,for some time, I would suggest any size trommel has it production rate, or trommel size equals amount of materials effectively screened per hour, this is a well proven method for classification, size equals cu/yd per hour,

As well as other methods, there are shaker screens, again size equals cu/yds per hour, ( slightly less blockages in the screen,). I think,

Please note , at this point, I would suggest a" bar orga" type trommel would not be suitable for working in slate type ground, where a sliver of slate might be 1/8" thick x 4" long x 4" wide, only suitable for river shaped gravels,

Got to be quick, so the line of thought is a " bar/orga type trammel concept, will be capable of a size equals cub/yds per hour, formula similar to above, but I am hoping that by increasing the speed, or rpm, the orga will increase the amount or cub/yds per hour, so, the undersize gravels do not fall or find a empty space to pass through the screen , they are actually forced into the screen gap, and forced through the screen by following gravels, the idea being, increase the rpm, increases the force/rpm, in turn increases/ the volume of gravels passing or being forced through the screen, ????? guess guess,

please note this concept is more intended for classification of gravels pre-classified gravels say 1" down to 5/8", another trommel bar screen for 5/8" down to 1/2", and smaller and smaller , say about 5 trommels in all,

One scenario " could be " that as the trommel revolves, the undersize gravels are forced through the gaps, at the point of contact with the orga edge/lip, and cause gravels to be or allot of gravels to be forced through the screen and shot out, some/allot smashed into undersize "size ",

In the same scenario the or each trommel would have to be fitted with a manifold or hopper under the full length, to catch and funnel the undersize to the next trommel, and a cover over the revolving trommel to stop water spray and high velocity undersize gravels forced through the screen with enough force rpm to cause gravels to be projectiles, make a heck of of alot of noise as the gravels, or volumes of gravels hit or strike the under belly hopper, and upper full length cover,

Please visualize a length of pipe 15' long, by say 18' dia, on an angle say 5 -25 degrees, guess guess, and a good fitting orga spinning at a rpm to cause gravels to be drawn up the pipe at a velocity, that causes a fountain of oversize gravels to pour out, the high end of angled pipe, now visualize the pipe is the bar screen,

Ok, so if, if, if ,that worked, I would guess all 5 bar trommels / orga would or could be classifying perhaps 10 times more 1" then two 32 ton excavators could supply, so the rpm of the bar trommel, and the orga could / should reduced 10 times, to perhaps 1/8 cubic yards per sec, of pre-classified, Sg concentrated, super cons, 1/8 of a cubic yard of cons divided or classified between 5 = 15' long x 18" dia bar trommels per second, ???>

Note to self, next is possible scenarios for wear factors, how often all 5 screens will need to be replaced, ect, ect, guess, guess, ???

:confused: :smile:

  
dredger
04:11:34 Sun
Feb 17 2013

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Fleng
19:02:10 Mon
Feb 18 2013

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Fascinating thoughts dredger. Thanks for the bump. Just spent the last hour reading the thread-couldn't stop!
Getting lots of good ideas from your experienced thoughts.

After seeing Tony Beets' oscillating sluice I must say that replacing expanded metal or hardware cloth is a necessary cost of operation. The ability to process large rocks must be weighed against their ability to destroy the processing machinery. i'm almost thinking that 1' boulders need to be classified, washed, and processed in a separate channel from the ordinary pay gravel.


  
geowizard
15:54:07 Tue
Feb 19 2013

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Re: Dredging w/Hydraulic Excavator

Fleng,

That's an important point!

I agree, dredger has provided excellent information!

In my Maxi-Banker, I incorporate a grizzley into the screen. The screen is supported with cross pieces spaced about 11 inches apart. The screen is angled away from the plant and the loader. The cross pieces are 1" Unistrut (aka Telespar).

- Geowizard

  

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