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FineAU
19:51:41 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

The EPA considers sediment a pollutant.
In California, I have a client that was cited by the California Regional Water Quality Control Board for minor muddy tire tracks in the street during construction. In his case the "disturbed area" is slightly larger than an acre and therefore triggered a more extensive "Storm Water Pollution Prevention Plan with a requirement for a "best management plan" and monitoring of the plan at set intervals. The regulation would be more stringent and require testing of visible and non-visible suspended sediment/ turbidity had other conditions been met. The regulations cover both storm water and non-storm water discharges directly or indirectly into U.S. waters.
While the NOI is required in this case because of the one acre plus trigger, if the letter of the regulation is followed precisely, you could be cited for pollution by the EPA for washing your car in the driveway of your home.
http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/stormwtr/docs/finalconstpermit.pdf will open the doors to many other regulations that most are unaware.

  
peluk
21:02:02 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Joe,if the operator's"feelings"are involved in whether a setup is acceptable or unacceptable, with regard to the law,we are heading for a fall.

That is simply rectified by the elimination of highbankers in the proximity of a creekbank as has been done elsewhere.

We are a small group whose activities benefit only ourselves.As such we are vulnerable and must take every
precaution against giving the enemy a foothold.

I am playing the "devil's advocate" here

  
JOE_S_INDY
21:42:31 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Hey Chick!

The initial determining factor as to whether or not a POO or NOI is required rests on the operator. Equipment, Structures, substantial earthwork etc would make it a no brainer that they're needed. Looking at Jeff, his shovel and not-in-streambed highbanker makes POOs and NOIs a non-item. Good to pre-think that aspect was all I was trying to say.

As I understand it, the 9th Circuit Court clarified EPA / CWA parameters in that material dredged from a streambed and returned to the same streambed are not polutants. The same would go for Highbankers. In the De Minimus level we're talking about with Jeff, it would seem to be a mute point.

FineAu,
I will pray for you and all others who have to live in California - where policy and proceedure have nothing to do with law or reason. Were you refering to mining claims when you mentioned muddy tire prints and one Acre "Triggers" ? That kind of 'Bull Dust" just doesn't hack it where I mine - because we have laws and not "LA Enviro Touchie Feelie Proceedures".

Joe



---
Wiser Mining Through Endless Personal Mistakes
 
 
dredgeguy
21:50:36 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

The CA. DFG did not have a problem with the hole Jeff dug or pumping water out of the river or the two settling ponds or the other highbankers, sluicers or dredges in the area.
The ranger said that the deleterious material was polluting the river and will kill the fish.
The area is BLR land and ran by the BLM with multiple hydroelectric plants up and down the river.

The citation was cadfg 5650 which is the same as dumping a sewage plant into the river. The ranger was a bright and shiny new to the area type of guy and had to look in the book for 20 min. to find an offense he could write a ticket for.

No turbidity tests or pollution assimilation test of the river were done. The power plants turn the river chocolate brown any time they run. The rangers answer was they have more clout.

Any way Jeff had a great time with the G1 and got 4 160 acre claims up the river from this spot with good color.

We are currently making a 4" sump dredge with 2 G1 trays fed by a 2" nozzle from the sump to catch the fine gold on his new claims.

Thanks Rick

  
dredgeguy
21:53:50 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Even in Calif the laws still apply and Joe is right.

The administrative laws do not apply to the mining rights citizens have.

  
FineAU
21:54:56 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

The area I was mentioning dealt with residential construction over one acre. This can include , however a residence that is grading an area for a large equestrian area.

The dredging pollutant potential rests with the EPA, State Parks, Forest Ranger, Fish and Game, etc to determine that the up-stream turbidity is exceeded downstream from the dredge (I believe) for a maximum distance. Those particulars I am not familiar.

If the sediment from the highbanker (in an area that allows highbanking), is not controlled by what is considered "Best Methods Procedures" and discharges into a waterway, who knows what trouble could occurr.

  
peluk
22:52:44 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Ok joe,I follow your point.
Dredgeguy and FineAu,thank you for the further clarification.

I have some plans for tundra work where I'm thinking of utilizing portable tubs or ponds.The material is not heavy in clay or fine silt.That being the case,I can recycle with a highbanker(s)set on the lip of the tank/pond.Runoff from the highbanker can be caught in a large tub and periodically removed and stored on tarps for replacement in the hole.I've done this on a smaller scale already.I want to have all my ducks in a row so this is all good info.

  
tabwyo
23:29:36 Tue
Mar 24 2009

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Re: New highbanker

We have a new crop of "RoboCops" here in WY. And I have fought 3 citations and have been cleared on every one. The first step is to havea copy of , AND FOLLOW, the current DEQ water quality regs as it pertains to your mining endevores. And have all propper forms and permits for any work. Secondly, don't try to sound smarter than the cop. That only pisses them off. If you have all of your duck in a row you will win. Yes it is an inconveinece. But life is a series of those. The less you fight the less they buck.

  
Heavens_Pavement
02:32:05 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

If all your "ducks are in order".
Is there anyway to make those that are obviously harassing your LEGAL endeavor, liable.
Maybe by lawsuite or something like losing in small claims loser pays.
Maybe if not "corperate" government, maybe on a personal level,
fustrating..... :sad:

  
peluk
02:42:58 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

I believe you have a case of"undue harassment".You have been found innocent of charges but you have lost time and money defending yourself.I would say you should go to the distrit attorney and seek assistance.

If you are worried about these cretins coming back on you for revenge,there's slim chance.You have a right to exist and having defended your rights to mine you also have a righ to sue.You have a track record.These frustrated emperors will have to be content to eat doughnuts and drive in circles.

There's also the power of the press.Everyone has met one of these types.Cast some light on them.

  
auldrider
04:26:49 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Quote: dredgeguy at 21:50:36 Tue Mar 24 2009


The power plants turn the river chocolate brown any time they run.



I find this comment unusual in my experience (40 years in Hydro electric power generation) but I don't want to run this thread off course.

If this is true can you PM me and explain why this occurs. Cheers, John.

PS: I am more interested in the G-1 performance and especially the rep[lies about it being used as a suction dredge!

  
azdave35
04:37:57 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

exactly..stay on the subject..start your own thread if you want to talk about laws and politics

  
peluk
05:15:18 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

I agree auldrider.I may have helped get it off course and the discussion of the G1 has been interesting.Steady as she goes.

  
Heavens_Pavement
06:01:14 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Sorry gentlemen, right, back on track...
the comment
"PS: I am more interested in the G-1 performance and especially the rep[lies about it being used as a suction dredge! "
??
did I miss something.
I bought mine (G-1)with a 2.5 inch dredge adapter.Can't get get to my claim right now(for a while).

  
tabwyo
20:20:34 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

The area I intend to dredge the most is considered a Class II water. So it won't be open until July 1st. As soon as the ice comes up off the bottom of Strawberry I'll be on the claims there a dredgein away. My pump is beefy enough I might just try a little hydraulic work at the base of an outcrop of the gold source rock on the same claim. There is already a pretty good excavated hole (5 foot deep, 3 wide & 6 across) right up there. I can pump it full of water from the creek and then use it as my water source and set the unit up to dump back into it.

I am considering drilling the suction nozel intake and running a bolt through it to help prevent largish rocks from getting sucked up and plugging me up all the time. Anybody else mod their suction nozels like this or am I screwing up???

  
carver2
21:19:05 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: New highbanker

A 2 1/2" suction nozzle needs at least 100gpm pump and probably more to give decent suction, I am a bit worried that that much water is going to overwhelm the box. My reasoning is that Joel says that optimum is 40-50 gpm. Hope I am wrong. Will

  
alienbogey
06:39:51 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Joel,

I guess you've been busy.

I'm looking forward to your answer to my questions and whether the G1 is less than 10 square feet of riffle area in order to be Washington state legal without extra permitting.

If not, it may have to be the G2 for me, assuming you do produce it.

Perhaps start a new thread; this one is getting awfully long to wade through, especially with the digressions.

  
Ben_Rumson
16:30:32 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: New highbanker

On the G-1 surface area:

I came up with 8.97 square feet of surface area. without clasification screen.

10.22 feet with clasification screen.

Fractured my ankle. Hope to be on my claim next week running the G-1 as a 3 inch dredge.

  
alienbogey
16:35:38 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Ben

Thanks for figuring that out. I should be good then as the Washington reg says less than 10 square feet of "riffle area".

I'm looking forward to hearing how your G1 works for you.

Sorry about your ankle.

  
tabwyo
17:57:35 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Certainly interested in hearing how the unit operates under the higher flow conditions needed to run a dredge nozzle.

  
QuartzvilleMiner
13:48:14 Mon
Mar 30 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Good Luck on that Wash claim Alien. Just saw the G-1 at the GPAA gold show in Salem Saturday and it's not near as big as I thought it was from the photos on the website which is good. Still don't know if I can get it to work as a recirculating system yet. Also noted that the lower sluice uses just about the same system design as a Le Trap, not just dips and square riffles like it looked in the photos. Definitely interested in this. On side note...Hope those new rules in Wash don't mess you up. There was a group at the show talking about them restricting the season to Sept-Feb or something like that to protect the fishies. They said their claims were still under 10 ft of snow....

  
blacksands_man
16:12:35 Wed
Apr 8 2009

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Re: New highbanker

goldrushpro,

You know what i would like to see is the G-1 go after say Snake river gold/ your Oregon material & its "catch profile" revealed by the mesh sizes it catches like between 100-150, 150-200, 200-250, 250-300, 300-350, 350-400 for say a days high banking including "weights" caught for the various mesh sizes. This qualitative & quantitative approach could then be graphed, I think this would be the most useful information on the G-1's performance. I would assume the G-1 material would be run though S-1 for recovery.
You can get inexpensive scales on eBay that will measure .01 grams accurately for the test for accurately profiling.

The S-1 could also be judged by the same performance using say ~1 cubic yard of material fired through it "not" previously run through the G-1 (but classified) to Gage its performance graphed as well.

It would be interesting to test the top performing highbankers /sluices out there... La trap - Pop's&Son sluice etc for comparative performance against the G-1 ...any takers on say Snake river material for this test?

The G-1 & S-1 are interesting but I would like to see some solid numbers goldrushpro, it would only help sales.

blacksands man
[6 edits; Last edit by blacksands_man at 17:42:27 Wed Apr 8 2009]

  
Danfromny
18:06:11 Wed
Apr 8 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Sure I will take on that challenge, but its going to have to be Nome AK. fine beach material, or ocean dredge configuration. I will but my "Black Boxes" up against your G1's, and my tests on my centrifuge should do well against the S1 as well. Any impartial judges out there? Any time in June is fine with me:smile:

  
azkid
19:33:59 Wed
Apr 8 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Quote: Danfromny at 18:06:11 Wed Apr 8 2009

Sure I will take on that challenge, but its going to have to be Nome AK. fine beach material, or ocean dredge configuration. I will but my "Black Boxes" up against your G1's, and my tests on my centrifuge should do well against the S1 as well. Any impartial judges out there? Any time in June is fine with me:smile:


looking forward to the results..

  
goldrushpro
13:15:44 Thu
Apr 16 2009

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Re: New highbanker

blacksands_man,

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

Yes - I would love to perform such a detailed test on the G-1 and S-1. But not in the format of what it can do standing alone. I would love to see it compaired to the recovery of other commercially available equipment. Because I could go to a specific location with a specific gold deposit and build a recovery system that is matched to that deposit. But here is where I think the G-1 is different - It does have a design consideration for a broad range of gold deposits but it also has design considerations such as the super fast clean up's for that occasional gold deposit with seemingly impossible gold - where the only way to catch it is to run 20 or so shovels and clean up. I've heard it called parachute gold - tin foil gold - kite gold etc. So can you judge the G-1 on it's ability to recover gold (sure you can) I see it's improved gold recovery all the time with stories that come back to me and with the commercial mines I work with etc. but is there a formula for taking into consideration it's adaptability and it's production abillity, and it's value in portability etc????? I can whip the pants off the G-1 in a 200 to 500 mesh gold deposit with a back preasure injected centrifuge and the support equipment to run it but that would weigh 1500 LBS and cost 45,000 dollars. Please remember that I set out to make a better Highbanker/powersluice. I want you guys to make me prove myself every step of the way but please keep in mind that I promote this as an improved fine and ultra fine gold recovery highbanker and a much higher production unit - but as much or more for it's ADAPTABILITY and design features that make a prospectors life alot easier when out in the field.

Thanks,
Joel

  
Danfromny
14:01:51 Thu
Apr 16 2009

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Re: New highbanker

I am sorry, I dont want to take advantage of a situation. Since my sluices were made and tested with the smallest "float gold" i could catch with other conventional means. The gold I used for my tests is all from Nome. So wanting to have a "Sluice Off" in Nome would be to my advantage, since I already know that it works there. But Im still up for the challenge, so if somebody wants to compete their machine for fine gold recovery, I will be on the Beach all summer testing equipment. Same as I've been for the last several years. My "Black Boxes" or "trays" were made to travel light since shipping costs take up a large part of a recreational miners budget on the way to Nome. Where as they have the versatility to be set up or framed to fit anyones budget. Most of the miners I know would rather scrap a frame together in a few minutes rather then spend a few hundred bucks buying or shipping one "the last thousand miles".:smile:

  
Ben_Rumson
18:26:46 Sat
Apr 18 2009

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Re: New highbanker


The 3 hole recerculating dredge for low volume creek.

I'm dredinging my 3 inch in the working hole up behind the the G-1. The 2nd hole settles the slurry and the 3rd hole is used as the main source of water.


I found that I can use the Nozzle not only to break up the hard pack but also for cleaning off 90% percent of what catches on the classifier. Larger rocks still need to be tossed even with angle at max.



After laying hoses and setting up the pump putting the G-1 together was fast. Clean up and break down even faster.



I've got some old rubber mat I want to bolt on as a back stop. Dosn't need it but I want to see how it works with the discharge higher up.


Ran it fast for the 2 hours I had this day and I will run it slower the next time I'm out. The reason bieng I could manuver the suction hose just fine but the flat hose was a real bugger to bend with the Honda GX160 at 3/4 power.


Water over the back when vegitation starts to collect on classifier. Easy enough to clean off from dredge hole with water hose.



The size rocks that tend to be caught on the classifier. I could usually go 15 minutes without getting up from long arming the hole I was in to sweep them off.



  
tabwyo
21:16:45 Sat
Apr 18 2009

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Re: New highbanker

What did you catch???

I went with the 2" dredge attatchment. I was afraid that any bigger and I'd out run my sluices recovery ability.

  
Ben_Rumson
02:23:38 Sun
Apr 19 2009

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Re: New highbanker


I still have another foot down to go before hitting a red layer that is pay dirt for me but this is what it looks like and what I took from the G-1.

  
AceHand
02:50:06 Sun
Apr 19 2009

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Re: New highbanker

Great pictures, great report. You did pretty good for 2 hours. Thanks.
Good Luck,
Tom

  

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