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cubsqueal
03:33:01 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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"Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"


Since some of this forum's members use this cartridge and the similar .450 Marlin for bear protection, I thought maybe this cool, relaxing presentation might be enjoyable. Kind of a video a person remembers for a long time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRcmGRazf9s&feature=related

  
charlene91
04:05:34 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

they are both good bear rounds or for two legged varmints also i have a pistol in each round and they are fun to shoot and i also reload my own ammo bye ..Charlene



---
My trommel gets the rocks so clean,
And breaks up all the clay;
It works and works - so lean and mean -
Works all the live long day.

So if you want no rocks or clay
To ever slow you down,
Just use a trommel every day
And watch 'er go to town!

What is that yellow in my swirls?
Could all of that be gold?
O, trommel, trommel... I'm your girl,
Together we'll grow old.


Written by AKLady
 
 
Prospect09er
05:18:49 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Good video
Thanks for posting it!

  
MarshallAk
06:41:57 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Dang! That guy is a good shot! I have two 45/70's....love them both! The heavier handloads will punch you pretty hard...

Marshall
[1 edits; Last edit by MarshallAk at 06:42:32 Sun Mar 14 2010]

  
eightymesh
13:05:27 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

as god as my witness i will never load 500 grain bullets in my Ruger #3 45/70 again ..... :gonetoofar:

great gun, lightweight, short barrel for the brush, no fog iron sights, would take a moose down like it was hit by a train

good video cubsqueal ...thanx

  
baub
16:00:22 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Ditto. Thanks Cub.

b

  
overtheedge
16:51:58 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

What 80mesh said.

500 Grainers in the Number #3 ain't fun. I contend that you have to shoot often to be competent and when it ain't fun, you don't do it. Besides 350's or 405's will do the job even as cast bullets.

Can't imagine 45-70 and 500's in a Super 14 Contender, but given the opportunity, I would try it. Ran into a guy that had a 5 shot revolver chambered for the 45-70. He stuck to the trap-door loadings.

  
chickenminer
19:30:29 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Quote: overtheedge at 16:51:58 Sun Mar 14 2010

I contend that you have to shoot often to be competent and when it ain't fun, you don't do it.


Boy ain't that the truth!
I have a 12" Contender barrel chambered in .375 JDJ . Had it for over 20 years and I bet I don't have 100 rounds through it. Pachmayr grip and still, after three rounds my hand hurts enough ya can't help but flinch.

Cub.... tnx. Great video. You can tell that guy plays with those a lot !



---
Dick Hammond - Chicken, Alaska
Chicken / Stonehouse Creek Mining
Chickenminer.com
 
 
charlene91
21:12:16 Sun
Mar 14 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

about the contender being a single shot i am sure it kicks my two pistols are the bfr s which holds five rounds and that are i bit heaver then a single shot ..I donot feel that my kick much ...Charlene

  
AceHand
00:39:42 Mon
Mar 15 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

My old boss had a T/C in 45/70. I shot it once. It ended up behind/beside my head, barely had hold with thumb and forefinger. Dang near flew out of my hands. LOL, that was enough of that.
Good Luck,
Tom

  
fubar
02:01:40 Mon
Mar 15 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

I don't remember real well, and could have this story all tangled,
but I have a friend who long ago had a "45/70 falling block buffalo gun", I don't remember the load that he allowed me to shoot,... BUT I will never ever ever ever, shoot anybodies anything without a thorough understanding of just how much kick it will have.
That SOB knocked me back at least 5 feet before I got both of my feet under me, and left a dosie of a sore shoulder.
It was a long, long time before I could shoot my son's 22 cal without wincing, lol.

Scotty
KL1YO

  
tenderfootminer
04:06:17 Mon
Mar 15 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

:devil: i have a 458 that i got for a great deal.the guy told me he would sell it to me cheap if I could shoot a whole box of factory 510grains through it in one sitting hahahaha I did but purple the next day :devil:
[1 edits; Last edit by tenderfootminer at 04:16:38 Mon Mar 15 2010]

  
eklawok
03:59:48 Wed
Mar 17 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Well 2 thing guys....

I have shot a thompson contender with both a 45/70 barrel and a .308 waters barrel. I was dissapointed with the kick in both barrel configs. But I will be fair when I say that the shells were facorty, not custom loads. I could shoot that thompson with the 45/70 barrel all day w/o a problem. The one I shot kicked just a little bit more than a .44 mag. But also again, I can shoot a .44 mag one handed...don't know how acuratly though. (sorry for the spelling)

Second....What is the differance between a .45/70 and a .450 marlin? I asked this question over at Wild west guns about a year ago and got a smart-assed answer from them and, well....they lost my business..FOREVER!!! (I don't like smart asses in gun shops) I inqired at a few other shops and nobody could give me an answer other tha "I don't know."

  
charlene91
04:56:19 Wed
Mar 17 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

the difference between a 45/70 and a 450marlin is the 45/70 ammo store bought is loaded to be safe to shoot in the older trap door rifles and a lot of people wanted more power so marlin and hormney came up with the 450 marlin which shoots a lot faster and more power the average store bourght 45/70fired a 300 grain bullet at about 1800 ft per second at the muzzle and store bourgh 450 goes about 2400feet per secornd at the muzzle the 450 marlin is a thicher case to handle the more pressure ...I reload my own for both if I wanted to i could load my 45/70 to travel at about 2100at the muzzle but i donot because being that the 45/70 cases are thinner everly time i did the cases would did thinner and before long i could not use then any more well enough i hope if not just ask .Charlene the boys at wild west guns do know there stuff

  
Zooka
04:59:37 Wed
Mar 17 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

I have a marlin Guide's Gun in 45-70, did a lot of research on the 45 caliber offerings before getting it, then a year later Marlin intro'd the 450 marlin cartridge.
Basically the 45-70 can be really hopped up over its original US Army configuration but you have to have a modern Winchester.Browning/Marlin lever action to handle the hopped up loads. This outfit sells them in 450 marlin, 45-7-, 450 Alaskan, etc, and the energy and velocities they get are incredible:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=2

This outfit also sells them hopped up, even has a 500 grain solid tungsten bullet for elephants:
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

I can get the Buffalo Bore stuff at Cabela's down here, sometimes.

Both outfits are good sources for anti-bear 44 mag stuff too.

I dont think it'd be much fun to shoot some of this ammo through a pistola, even a Contender.

-Z


  
Vance_in_AK
16:18:40 Wed
Mar 17 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Zooka is spot on. I've had both & now currently just have the 450 Guide Gun. My handloads aren't max (although close) & run a 420gr hardcast bullet at 1820fps from the 18.5" barrel.
When loaded up for the Marlin action the 45-70 will do everything the 450 will do & can actuall do a bit more (45-70 case capicity is abour 4 gr greater than the 450) with good brass life if you are using good brass in a good chamber. Those loads will take apart an old trapdoor like the guy was shooting in the video though. Baiscally if you handload the two are comperable. BUT, they will NOT interchange in the gun!!!!!



---
Vance in AK
PS119:72. The law of your mouth is better to me than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
 
 
eklawok
01:45:25 Thu
Mar 18 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Thanks for the info guys

  
MarshallAk
05:15:04 Thu
Mar 18 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Vance, Zooka, and Charlene are all correct with the 45-70 vs 450-Marlin comparison. If you are handloading there is virtually no difference. If you don't handload, and don't plan to, then I'd say get the 450 if you want a "bear gun". If you do handload, then it is six of one, and half-a-dozen of the other...it really doesn't matter. I also load 420gr hard cast, in my 45/70, to about 1750fps, and can tell you that if loaded any hotter then accuracy goes down the drain right quick. (kicks horribly) This load is about all the punishment the average shooter can take, and still manage to hit the side of a barn at 30 paces. My "fun load" for targets and plinking uses a light charge of Unique, with either 292gr or 300gr cast that yields about 1200fps. (see Lyman manual) Recoil is so low as to not even be worth writing about. With this powder, I always always ALWAYS seat a bullet immediately after dumping the powder into the case, so as to avoid any possibility of a double charge. (A double-charge will destroy your gun)

Maybe the guys at WW-Guns "smart-a55ed" in reply to eklawok's question, because they happen to manufacture a special version of the Marlin guide gun that shoots their propriatory 457 "Wild West Magnum". It's basically a 45-70 lengthened a bit (like maybe 1/10" longer), with a dab more powder stuffed behind the bullet. Yes, it's more powerful, but not significantly so. And...both the guns and the ammo are spendy. Is it worth it? Well...IMO...no. But then....if you have tons of money to burn....goferit. Ammo for it is probably non-existent out in the bush, but I'm guessing you could probably fire 45-70 in it without a problem. (just like you can shoot 44 Special in a 44 Magnum, 38 Special in a 357, 45 Colts in a 454 Casull, 2 3/4" shotshells in a 3" shotgun, etc, etc) (If you get the 457 WWMag, I'd ask them if you can use 45/70)


Marshall
[2 edits; Last edit by MarshallAk at 05:18:53 Thu Mar 18 2010]

  
charlene91
06:38:42 Thu
Mar 18 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

hi you all yes you can shoot a 45/70 round in a rifle cambered for the 457 ww...Charlene

  
Zooka
16:57:32 Thu
Mar 18 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

One last note, the Buffalo Bore company has a whole lot of different loads for the 45-70, from mild to really wild, but only 2 for the 450 Marlin. Garrett doesnt make a hot 450 marlin, but he also has lots of different weights and velocities of 45-70s to choose from.

You don't have to handload to get hot 45-70s is my point, Buffalo Bore or Garrett will fedex them right to ya. And unless you WANT to handload, the investment in just dollars in a handloading setup will buy more hot 45-70 rounds than you would care to shoot in quite some time.

  
baub
18:00:56 Fri
Mar 19 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Can one just buy cartridges with more powder and get flatter trajectory than stock cartridges, assuming the same bullet weights etc in both varieties? My logic is that both bullet weights and powder are factors in the dreaded recoil problem.
There's also a recoil pad out, I fergit the name, that reduces recoil more effectively than traditional pads. Would such a recoil pad be enough to make life bearable shooting hot loads ? Or in my case, higher powder loads?

b

  
charlene91
18:18:06 Fri
Mar 19 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

hi you all baub buffalo bore sell if you are here in ALASKA here in Fairbanks you can buy them as for a recoil check out midway .com ...one more thing the buffalo bores are spendey which is why i reload my own ...Charlene

  
baub
19:30:28 Fri
Mar 19 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Charlene,

Thanks for the info ! I'm in the lower 48. I bought a Marlin Guide Guh a few years ago and like it. The ballistics aren't all that hot. Lotsa drop over 100 yds or so. It's not a big concern of mine but if I can improve them a bit, and do it cheaply, by simply buying cartridges with more powder, I'll go that route if there's minimal increase in recoil.
I did buy some "lipstick" bullets that are supposed to be better in all respects. They've got a reddish plastic tip that improves performance.
Since this is a self defense weapon, I spect if I ever did use it, it would be within 30 yards and bullet drop would be insignificant.

b

  
Vance_in_AK
19:39:44 Fri
Mar 19 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Marlin's factory pads on the Guide Guns vary in "softness". Mine was almost brick hard while a friends was nice & soft.
I put on the pad you are probably thinking of (Simms Limbsaver) & it made a world of difference.
The Leverloution loads from Hornady ("lipstick loads") will make thw gun shoot a bit flatter at distance, but I bought mine for 200yd & under work so the 420 hardcast @ 1825 with a -0- at about 150yds work great for me. I have a Burris 2.75x scout scope set up in Warne quick detach rings & XS Ghost ring sights so I have an option for really thick stuff, horrible weather, or if the scope is damaged.



---
Vance in AK
PS119:72. The law of your mouth is better to me than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
 
 
baub
21:48:06 Fri
Mar 19 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Vance,

Thanks for the detailed info. I think I will do something very similar for mine.

b

  
Vance_in_AK
23:43:47 Fri
Mar 19 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Quote: baub at 21:48:06 Fri Mar 19 2010

Vance,

Thanks for the detailed info. I think I will do something very similar for mine.

b


Baub, here's the place to go for Marlin info (& 45-70 info)
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php



---
Vance in AK
PS119:72. The law of your mouth is better to me than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
 
 
baub
03:47:54 Sun
Mar 21 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Got it, thanks Vance.

b

  
Fxds97
05:59:13 Sun
Mar 21 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

I have both the 450 Marlin and my .50 Beowulf as my "bear/ brush" rifles. The Beowulf can send 7 400gr FP's as fast as you can pull the trigger and stay on target. I love them both.

  
Zooka
05:26:36 Mon
Mar 22 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

LOL FDX and all, I have the 45 70 and a 458 Socom that'll punch put 10 semiauto... and 300 of the new Barnes copper solids with red tips designed for levers and 458 Socoms to improve downrange performance. And a slip on limbsaver over the factory pad on the marlin. But i went with the firesight iron sights on the lever gun, and an eotech on the SOCOM.
Do I have a gun problem??
Heavy Metal rocks...
Baub get the slipon Limbsaver pad you will never regret it, the Buffalo Bores and Garretts are not a problem in mine as long as you dont go Elephant Capable on them...
-Z

  
baub
18:11:40 Mon
Mar 22 2010

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Re: "Heavy Lead -- .45/70 Rifles"

Thanks z.

b

  

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