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kringle_mining
04:34:40 Thu
Mar 10 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

lol...good design Sam!

  
SamBurgin
21:03:57 Thu
Mar 10 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

The Environmental movement didn't send Free Enterprize down the drain Geowizard; the Capitalists of the world brought on the Enviros by ignoring their responsibilites to future generations, choosing instead to chase the last penny of profit. Free enterprise is indeed great, but it isn't free.

I'm not sure who scares me more: On one hand are the envirowackos, on the other are the folks who want no rules, no regulatuions, no inspections, nor any accountability - the destructowackos.

Or is there another axe you're grinding?

Nice Avatar, yours?

Sam








  
cubsqueal
22:16:22 Thu
Mar 10 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?


I believe it was Steve (Herschbach) who pointed out some time ago that there are now places where a person is not even allowed to use a spoon with his gold pan, on some rivers.

Textbooks for the field of natural resource management pay a lot of attention to the value of "riparian zones". And they are, in fact, kind of the "Gardens of Eden" of a lot of landscapes. So it isn't a big surprise that land managers may have a built-in resentment to anyone who trespasses on and probably, in their eyes, "desecrates" " their" land. They seem to have the upper hand due to the way our judicial system works.

So my question is: If these land managers can't abide a spoon to fill a gold pan, what do you suppose they think of a loader in a riparian zone? I think the handwriting is on the wall.

* * * * *

I wonder if a person could get a ticket for having a spoon in his pocket?

Move over, George (Orwell).

  
kringle_mining
01:25:18 Fri
Mar 11 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

No Wiz ,
My mining "permit" is issued by the stateof Alaska DNR
Cross county "permits are issued by the state of Alaska DNR
As well as cabin permits and water rights etc.
and permits to move whole creeks if needed
A bond pool is used when operating over 5 acres.

Much of the Environmental movement is a fasade ochestrated by big industries to shut down a competitor.

Anwr would glut the market with oil - hire a sqeekie wheel to lobby against drilling it.

Pebble would glut copper and is stealing potential investors.....hire a environmentalist to lobby against it.

Alliances are determined by the money trail.

  
Steppegold
01:36:43 Fri
Mar 11 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Geowizard - thanks for playing the Joker card.

Returning to the Forum and the topic of placer gold mining...

...in your professional technical judgement as a placer miner do you believe transporting pay gravel to a static wash-plant is the most efficient and profitable way of doing it?

And try not to include too many sideloops in your reply to to bomb makers, free enterprise, capitalism, communism, socialism, environmentalism, bomb makers, Obama, European Commission and such-like.

You can of course mention any or all of these, and more besides, if you really feel you need to in order to answer a technical question.

Thanks in advance

Steppe



  
Steppegold
06:33:02 Fri
Mar 11 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Geowizard,

Fair question got Fair answer, thanks.

1. Freedom of choice: It isn't a matter of opinion. Your opinion or my opinion is not important. A placer miner is a business man. The doctrine of "free enterprise" dictates that the MINER should make that decision based on his business model.

"Free enterprise" is fine, but brings with it an obligation to follow rather a lot of rules in order that the free market and society can function. Being a MINER does not bring with it any additional freedoms.

"The miner has the responsibility for success or failure of his operation."
Great in theory. Unfortunately if the mining operation fails and leaves a big mess, who will clean up the mess?
If the mining operation succeeds in commercial terms and leaves a big mess, who will clean up the mess?
Should the miner be free to choose mining methods that are highly likely to create a big mess, should as mercury or large static wash-plants?

2. Regulation should not dictate methods: YOU cannot regulate general equipment types to be used in mining.
Quite right, it is up to the regulators to regulate.
The regulators are duty bound to seek opinions from stakeholders, so I put pen to paper and wrote a book that they may find useful. You might care to do the same.

3. The answer comes from a "calculation":
You recommend an Excel spreadsheet in the book. Excellent idea! This concept deserves understanding by all businessmen.

Marvelous to know you agree on this.
:smile:
Two chapters of the book are devoted to promoting EXCEL as BAT for placer gold mining:
Chapter #12 - Gold Resource and Reserve
Chapter #13 - Placer Mine Financial Plans



4. It's the only option: Many placer mining operations have limited access to water. The wash plant must be near the water. The gold may be on a bench. Many productive alluvial gravels in Alaska are not in the stream. Trucking is the only alternative.

BAT is simply the "Best Available Techniques". Obviously it is site-specific as you know.

You raise a valid point, but its overblown. I have visited a lot of placer gold mines in Mongolia that have no surface water at all in summer, and are far away from any surface stream. The common solution is to drill for groundwater, often after a bit of geophysics. Yes its an upfront cost, and yes it cost some dollars, but the operational savings are stunningly good. If after a couple of boreholes not enough groundwater is found, then some miners insert catch-dams across the dry streams in summer, in order to catch melt-water from melting snow in spring. The trick, as you know, is to minimise water usage by the wash-plant and to minimise water losses by percolation from water storage ponds (clay liners for example). There are some bizarre methods here too, such as stripping down to the permafrost and tapping the water released from it melting, and of course to trigger naled ice shields and doing the same. You can have a fully mobile trailer mounted jig with 100% recycling of water that therefore only needs a tiny amount of top up water. No need for a stream at all. Trucking is therefore NOT the ONLY alternative, and for hard-nosed commercial reasons should only be considered as a very last resort.

5. I don't need a rule book written by you or a room full of legislators that has determined from half way around the world what I need or don't need.
I quite agree. What Alaska needs is a rule book written by Alaskan regulators after careful detailed consultation with the local placer mining community such as the Small Scale Miners Committee of the Alaska Mining Association.

6a. Mining is an independent activity.
Mining is "an independent activity", er independent of what? Society? Regulation? News to me.

6b. Miners don't like having someone else dictate how they mine, where they mine and when.
True, but in that regard miners are no different from the general population of butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in not liking having someone else dictate how they make things, where they make things and when.

Its nice to know we agree on 2 Chapters of the BAT Book.

Steppe
[1 edits; Last edit by Steppegold at 06:35:51 Fri Mar 11 2011]

  
Steppegold
21:58:01 Fri
Mar 11 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Geowizard

Good post.

What I have written is a book with 'Robin Grayson' as sole author emblazoned on the front. If you like to call it Steppe BAT that's fine by me. The phrase "BATmobile mining" also has merit.

The starting point was the EC definition of BAT, as mentioned in the Book, but it definitely is not a product of the European Commission.

I fully agree with you that the Environmental Agenda doesn't help placer miners.

What can be done?

Yes we can grit our teeth and settle in for a trench war in which the placer mining industry is slowly squeezed more and more by the relentless Green Agenda and get suddenly overrun by misguided legislators in places like California (suction dredges) and Mongolia (all exploration and mining licenses for placer gold cancelled with 135 placer gold companies effectively destroyed).

Yes we can advance legal arguments but in the end historical rights get overwhelmed by attrition expensive court cases, and ultimately by changes in laws and regulations due to over-zealous environmentalists convincing legislators.

So we need to do more, a lot more.

But that's not easy as the placer mining industry due to accidents of geology and history is remarkably fragmented across the world, and disunited even within in the United States, whereas the anti-mining environmentalists are well-funded and have truly global reach.

In my view, and it is simply my view, the placer gold industry is not likely to survive such persistence unless the placer gold industry pulls its collective socks up and embraces some form of Best Available Techniques (BAT).

Already placer miners and equipment makers have adopted BAT for high % gold recovery techniques demonstrated in the public-funded Yukon tests (Clarkson etc) and techniques demonstrated by the Mineral Industry Research Laboratory in Alaska, and great strides have been made in fine gold recovery by equipment makers and by recreational miners. Much of this North American endeavor, a mix of public and private funding, has spread worldwide and is continuing to spread. There have also been many false dawns such as Alaskans flirting with large wash-plants such as IHC jig plants that are great floating on a dredge or pontoon but barely commercial onshore due their intrinsically static nature. Some North American research into improving techniques has failed the test of time. The most spectacular of these was the Canadian research on the gold recovery by placer drills. It is now clear that churn drills (cable tool drills) while being reliable for gold values above the water table, grossly underestimate gold values in wet ground, as shown by Soviet repeat drilling using bucket drills. A second example, easy to see in hindsight, is that the Yukon tests on wash-plants, brilliant as it was, did not compare the economic returns of static wash-plants versus mobile wash-plants. This could have been a theme of the sister project in 1986 also funded by YEDA, entitled 'Program 3, Placer Mining, Material Handling Technology'. This showed that in the Yukon the cost of feeding pay gravel to static wash-plants was very high, exceeding the combined cost of stripping the pay gravel and stripping the muck (overburden and soil). Unfortunately the study then focused only on placer mine management involving static wash-plants so encouraging miners to do the same.

Meanwhile from the other side of the Pacific the Kiwi miners perfected mobile mining using fully-mobile trommels with short hydraulic sluices slung underneath, on land as well as on pontoons, that allowed remarkably low grades to be worked due to the savings on manpower, fuel and haulage. This fully mobile method of mining is not only highly efficient and profitable, by good fortune it also undeniably has the least impact on the environment. While the Kiwi wash-plants are now widespread, from Alaska to Mongolia, the 'Kiwi way' is not the only avenue for fully mobile wash-plants, and good alternatives are made in Canada, USA, UK, China and elsewhere, containing just about the full range of gravitational techniques from fully mobile jigs, centrifuges and even spirals.

It is true that BAT and its variants are seen as an extra expense and irritant to many manufacturing industries in the European Union and North America. The good news is that BAT for placer gold mining is a quite dramatic exception, according to my lengthy studies. This is largely because by adopting fully mobile wash-plants most placer gold mines can be leaner, meaner and more profitable, and cut their impacts on the environment to the minimum.

Placer gold mining is painted as the unacceptable face of the mining industry, and is therefore a very target for soapbox politicians influenced by the green lobby. Especially so as the modern placer miner is tainted with the legacy of mercury and mess left behind in the past. Little wonder that getting permission is now difficult and regulations are often designed to stop placer mining.

The placer gold mining industry, small though it may be, can and should pull its socks up regarding the environment. Thankfully, as The BAT Book shows, by switching to mobile wash-plants wherever possible, not only is the environment impact cut, but so too are the financial costs. As one Mongolian miner said to me, "our company isn't keen to restore the environment, but if you can prove it to be cheaper then of course we will". I did, and so they did.

Hopefully the BAT Book will, I hope, in some small measure speed up the process of change that has been happening already as miners switch to mobile wash-plants. However many miners cling to the past; and continue to be inefficient and messy so making the whole industry easy prey to shut-down by the green lobby, with Mongolia as a topical case in point. Here the quite spectacularly appalling mess left by hopelessly inefficient placer miners has pulled down the entire placer gold industry, taking with it the placer gold miners who use mobile wash-plants to maximise profits and minimise impacts.

But there are considerable vested interests who rely on the placer gold industry to be inefficient in order to push their products:

- salesmen of equipment companies push to sell you the biggest wash-plant possible (its their job), stressing the value of high throughput coupled with high % gold recovery. "The bigger the better" is a trap we all fall in from time to time. Unfortunately these big beasts are so big that on land they are static or at best snails, and yet demand continous feeding with pay gravel night and day to make a profit. The overheads of feeding them by trucks, dozers or whatever cripples the profit. Some makers of large wash-plants have got rather stroppy with me, when I point this out. They wriggle and say that "ah, our wash-plant may be big, but you can move it, it really is mobile". Yeah, well not in my experience or those of colleagues. To eliminate transport of pay gravel to the wash-plant, the wash-plant has to move forward (or sideward) every few hours. If you want volume, then go for a series of small mobile wash-plants and forget a large wash-plant unless its floating on a pontoon or part of a big dredge.

- truck salesmen are keen to sell you as many trucks as possible (it's their job), and in my experience they are avid supporters of trucking pay gravel to the wash-plant. I've seen a placer company get easy terms from a truck vendor for a fleet of trucks to feed its huge wash-plant. Unfortunately the wash-plant was static and so the operation was uneconomic. It ended up with the truck vendor seizing the mine to pay off the debt. Trucking pay gravel needlessly led to that miner losing his mine to the truck vendor.

- bank loan officers, when I go with them to visit placer gold mining companies who are their clients, glance at the wash-plant momentarily and then turn their backs on it to admire the fleet of trucks they gave the loan for, and half the trucks are simply to feed the wash-plant because its static. I've seen a placer company go broke because it rented a huge state-of-the-art wash-plant but it did not have enough trucks to feed the brute with.

So, in the placer gold industry, BAT leads to MORE profit and LESS impact. So far as I'm concerned that's a double whammy. Sure, nobody likes change, nobody likes being told what to do, and not everyone is keen on the environment, but all miners I've met are keen on being lean, mean and maximise profits. If you like $$$ then BAT is the way to go. If you want to dig the ground from under the feet of the green lobby then adopting BAT destroys their central dogma that placer mining is always messy and irresponsible. The armchair greens are willing to be convinced and then the green fanatics will lose the middle ground support which at present is their strongest suite. Its time we all stop grumbling and stop playing the Joker and instead seize the opportunity to stack the cards in our favour.

Have a nice day

Steppe
[2 edits; Last edit by Steppegold at 22:12:41 Fri Mar 11 2011]

  
Steppegold
04:52:08 Sat
Mar 12 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

As I have said all I want to say, its now high time for me to move on.

Thanks to all and bye to everyone.

Steppe aka Robin Grayson
www.mine.mn
emiweb@magicnet.mn

  
AceHand
22:20:21 Sat
Mar 12 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Hope that's not what it sounds like.

  
billcosta_rica
23:36:26 Sat
Mar 12 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

doesn`t leave much room for doubt. does it ?

  
faaus
02:53:56 Sun
Mar 13 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

So Geowizard, would you rather be barbecued, boiled in oil or slow roasted?

  
kringle_mining
07:21:57 Sun
Mar 13 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Robin,

We hope you can make it over to the Alaska mining and diving supply forum. It would be nice to read your work over there. Steve has been plugging your forum.

Nothing gained Wiz :confused:

  
peluk
16:17:25 Mon
Mar 14 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

The views expressed here were very informative and both sides have points worth considering.To have avoided this exchange would have been a mistake.Grabbing the bull by the horns is what gives this Forum character.

  
cubsqueal
17:09:59 Mon
Mar 14 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?


peluk, I agree.

- - - -

There are huge differences in peoples' perceptions on many topics. Live with it.

Awhile back on here, one person basically stated one of my posts stunk. I can deal with it; I'm still here.

  
kringle_mining
18:35:37 Mon
Mar 14 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

It most likey depends on whoes the bull and whos the grabber Chick. This BAT discussion hit a stalemate about two months ago.
Cub you get digged on 1 post but Steppe has probably had to defend about 200-300 posts or more and he has. I would say that judging by my time spent on posting threads and articles that it has to be major time consuming. And defending your premise takes even longer thought and time.
Many of my post are written to invite critique. Steppes too. But there is a difference between critique and naysay. How one geo can bash a collegue's life work and not find a single positive chapter in the book to agree upon is beyond me.

I am not for Geowizard being banned nor have I made any pm complaints to the administrator about Wiz. nor asking for his removal. My disagreements with Wiz are public knowledge.

Hopefully Robin is burnt out by explaining himself over and over on the same topic (head beat against brick wall), but he soon returns to the forum with some fresh material like he always does. And we can crunch out some ideas on prospecting with Wiz included.

My opinion is Wiz should be the heal thy self physician and work on his own projects. If his own projects met the scrutiny he gives others prospectors project's, then he would be definitely nearer the gold strike.

Chaulk this one up to the sinility of cabin fever wot?


  
kringle_mining
18:40:07 Mon
Mar 14 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

and Yurt fever :smile:

  
baub
16:20:08 Tue
Mar 15 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Sad day. Learned a lot from Steppe, hate to see him go. Will remember him as a good sort and understandable, once you got used to his accent.
His book and ESPECIALLY patience were greatly appreciated.

Thanks ,

Bob


  
peluk
19:33:15 Tue
Mar 15 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?


Kringle,the "bull' I speak of is the rampaging environmental preservation movement.While nobody holds mother nature responsible for the devastation caused by such tantrumes as the Mt.Saint Helens eruption,woe betide the prospector who digs a hole in the surface of the earth.

I look at it this way.Take a bicycle helmet and put it on your head.Kneel down and smack your head against the pavement.Now do the same thing without a helmet.Is that experiment sufficient to insist anyone riding a bike will wear a helmet?Insurance companies and their lobbyists would like it that way.

Let's just say,we as miners start to gain headway in the fair use of the environment.The preservationists,backed to a wall will say,"Ok,but this is the only way you will mine gold.It guarantees maximum extraction of target minerals from the soil.This will mean the minng and disturbance will be a one shot affair.Then you and your equipment will go away."
They will then cite Steppe's book as the guide for BAT.

But you say,my situation is different,or I want to use a different method.The permit issuing office then says,"We are bound by regulations...newwwww regulations.They guarantee a maximum return to the shareholders,satisfy environmentalists,and it's the BAT."

Steppe is a writer who must defend his work.I want to read the final version.It may have some good ideas.I hope they remain as suggestions.

I think it fair to fire broadsides at the work.Nobody says Geowizzard is always right.If Steppe's work is worthwhile,criticism can only raise curiosity and boost sales.

I just remind Steppe of one thing,next time you dig test holes for human entry many feet below the surface,line that hole or don't do it.:welcome:



  
kringle_mining
05:37:39 Wed
Mar 16 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Like I said Chick .This BAT discussion hit a stalemate two months back.
The positions of both sides have been made clear an over and over and over abundance of time.
It is time to move on with new topics before the forum screeches to a halt.

  
dredger
23:15:56 Wed
Mar 16 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Dang, no time to comment.

dredger.

  
pascalfortier
16:52:44 Thu
Apr 7 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Updates?

Pascal

  
popandsonminers
19:42:04 Sat
Apr 9 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Looks like Robin's book is still "just a few days away"----

http://www.mine.mn/The_Gold_Miners_Book.htm

  
BillA
23:13:49 Sat
Apr 9 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

a long time awaiting . . . .
I'd sure like a hardbound copy.

Bill

  
peluk
01:40:01 Sun
Apr 10 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Thanks Pop.Chapter 31 and 32 lay it out pretty well.In chapter 31..."We discuss how to create a mineral policy that leads to LAWS and REGULATIONS that balance the interests of all stakeholders.This is a very difficult and daunting task for government and to succeed it needs an inclusive dialogue with all stakeholders...PLUS KNOWHOW ABOUT BAT." Who knew!!! Step right this way for your bible.I said THIS way for This bible!:smile:

Chapter 32.... "How to implement policies at a local level DEMANDING a package of training standards and monitoring."

Help me that I might know.Let's not take a chance.Let's put this squarely in the hands of those that gave us the Federal Reserve.Then we can just shove the B.S.about dialogue and just bend over.
Sorry Kringle,some old guys can't follow instructions.
:devil:

  
pascalfortier
02:07:14 Sat
May 7 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Gold??

  
tenderfootminer
01:11:16 Sun
May 8 2011

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Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Steepe,I was loading equipt to head top mine and ....out of a box fell another funnel shaped peice to the multi wheel gold machine I sent ya!let me know if ya want it mailed and where.:smile:

  

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