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peluk
19:27:01 Thu
Apr 29 2010

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"Nearly all gold is flattened"

Kaveman's recent comment,"Nearly all gold is flattened",deserves feedback.
What say ye?I know that I have heard it said that Alaska Gold Company could determine the source of gold even to the general creek location.It would take into consideration color and shape I'm assuming.I just want some opinions on what most have found as far as general specimen shape in their experience.

I have my opinion
though it is not set in ston.Looking at specimen pics submitted by Dredger for example,I would say the majority of that gold is not flat in shape.

It is important for sluice,shaker table and equipment operating methods at the very least.

  
Au_Seeker
21:21:00 Thu
Apr 29 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

Peluk,

In the southeast USA the gold is by far not all flat, some of it is chunky to the point of almost being a cube, some of it is irregular in shape no rhyme or reason other than most likely being not long out of the gold bearing ore, some is for sure flat flakes.

I have looked at very fine gold under 10X, 60X 200X magnification and the same is true with the fine gold only it's much smaller.

Location does come into play with gold shapes in the SE, and I assume it is the same wherever gold is found.

Skip

  
baub
21:49:41 Thu
Apr 29 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

The most troublesome shape of gold for me is the flatter varieties. I table my cons and find this to be true.
Also heard that gold ore that is liberated by impact style mills can be irregular in shape and also sometimes rounded by the action of the mill and the composition of the gold.

b

  
JOE_S_INDY
23:53:23 Thu
Apr 29 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

Baub,

In the matrix, the shape of Gold is anything but flat.

Sometimes the Gold assumes the shape of any voids in the matrix.
Sometimes it is just part of the matrix.
Sometimes it is forced into matrix voids under extreme pressure.

As the Gold leaves the matrix it is still 'Craggy". When a rock, for what ever reason, hits the Gold piece and crushes it a little, it ends up a tiny bit flatter. If it's the thousandth hit - well, it could be really flat - or not. Tiny pieces, of course, flatten easier.

Glaciers crush Gold flat with extreme weight. The gold assumes the shape of the crushing rock - leaving it flat, but textured due to the surface texturing of the rocks.

So, Glaciers and then rivers randomly crush freegold and, as we all know, concentrate it in "Elfin magic places" The craggy 'bits' we find are either newly freed from the matrix or just 'hid' early in their cycle.

One other thing - Glaciers sometimes break off large chunks of Gold bearing rock and carry them, intact, a long way before it drops them. Natural weathering (often expansion and contraction of the metalic Gold followed by the freezing and further expansion of the created pocket) can drop "fresh" Gold in amongst older crushed Gold.

Yepper Baub, small, very flat Gold is always a troublesome thing. The only way to really make headway, for me, is to tightly classify the concentrates before removing the magnetics and then final pan the results.

Joe S

Edit: Well after writing the above something came to mind that I thought I should mention.

My emphisis on Glaciers and freezing water comes from the fact that almost all of my mining experience has dwelled within those geological and thermal areas. Of course, many of the Gold recovery regions in this world are not in those circumstances (right dredger?) and therefore aren't applicable.

As my wife often says "I don't remember what I said - but you know what I ment."

Joe


[2 edits; Last edit by JOE_S_INDY at 16:03:11 Sat May 1 2010]



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Wiser Mining Through Endless Personal Mistakes
 
 
kaveman
00:36:41 Fri
Apr 30 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

Can I retract the statement, or at least modify it? What I meant was that gold particles are usually resistent to rolling, at least in a very thin water flow at a very shallow angle. Obviously, any chunky gold is going to stay put on a slate table because the slow, shallow water flow isn't going to be able to move it. Chunky gold is where the high SG really comes into play. Most gold particles are going to have at least one surface that's more or less flat and once they set on that surface, they're going to resist further movement. Flakes are definitely going to lay flat, and they don't provide much of a surface for the water to work against.

The shape of the gold is really less important than the shape of the sand which is always cubic(or rounded if well worn). The point is that the sand, even if heavy sand, is relatively easy for the thin layer of water to move. It's never flat.

Just trying to point out that penballs might be an ideal tracer in a riffled and carpeted sluice, but they won't work worth squat on a slate table. Same thing for BB's and lead shot. You'll never catch a one of them.

  
peluk
01:47:24 Fri
Apr 30 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

Modification accepted,Kaveman.
This is what i've found on the beach.If the gold is in the sand layers above the clay bed,it is easily worked or recovered because of a predominantly miniature nugget shape,If it is on the clay,often flatter shapes will be present as well.Panning and recovery in a sluice require more time with the predominantly flat stuff.

It so happens,my claims have a lot of flake gold from early turn of the century reports.I know claims on the same plane along the coast have flake.They have also had owners who could not adjust to the recovery methods called for.

Last summer a friend working in Peluk Creek brought in gold that looked like rolled foil.That was gold that was in the creek though.It would have been tumbled.That in the surrounding tundra may contain a lot of the unrolled foil(flat/flake) shape.I'll get at it this summer to see for myself.

Gold that I have seen up around the back side of Anvil Mt.is like a lace, sometimes.It's full of spaces but tied together as if freed from the host rock by freezing cycles as suggested by Joe.
It couldn't have traveled far at all while still retaining that shape.Most of the other gold from up there is not flat however.

I haven't found any gold yet that I would describe as unsuitable for collection.


  
dredger
02:16:48 Fri
Apr 30 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

Excellent read guys, back asap. with my 2 cents, dredger.:devil:

  
dredger
02:12:01 Sat
May 1 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

OUCH, Peluk,

I agree, " Kaveman's recent comment,"Nearly all gold is flattened",deserves feedback.,

Excellent idea, "I just want some opinions on what most have found as far as general specimen shape in their experience "
.A point of interest here is two fold for inexperienced new guys , first ;
It is to your advantage to be familiar with your gold shapes, for recovery ect., second,
Is to notice and be aware when and if the percentage of gold shapes change, for example , I am dredging up the river, or perhaps high banking in the river gravels, where the larger percentage of water worn flat gold shapes ,


changes to or is accompanied by a increase in courser / rougher gold,



Back asap.

  
dredger
02:26:48 Sat
May 1 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"


Attached to quartz,

that is obviously close to and is shedding from a source gold,, My line of thought here is I might have stumbled on to a close and rich source, that the old timers have overlooked, and not mined,

  
dredger
07:12:11 Sat
May 1 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

And that is when I will turn hard rock, :devil:.

I agree !!!!.,
" It is important for sluice,shaker table and equipment operating methods at the very least "
. VERY VERY IMPORTANT, my line of thought is at present we don't really have an efficient classification and dedicated recovery mechanisms on small dredges, ( my own especially , ) however we can make a table more and more efficient with further classification, and my intention will be to classify the cons, by "size " and "shape ", meaning, I will " blow away or off ", ( and recover ) all fine flaky ,attached to quartz, oddly un aerodynamically winged, or Swiss cheesed shaped gold, leaving only chunky thick weighty shaped gold,, then table the chunky stuff off at how many classifications necessary to achieve an incredibly high rate of recovery , and yes a lot of trouble to go to for a 6 ", or 8 ", but I suggest mandatory for larger operations, what about the blown off portion of the gold and fine gravels, including ball of Au, PGM's, ect, ??.
all fine flaky ,attached to quartz, oddly un aerodynamically winged, or Swiss cheesed shaped gold, ??. working on that as we go along, and back on subject,
I agree, " I would say the majority of that gold is not flat in shape ". and depends on what % of odd shapes are mixed in, results in % lost , like flaky and odd shaped PGM's and gold balls ,


OK, in an effort to stay on subject I have some suggestions for kaveman on his slate table, and an idea on a high speed version, :confused:.

peluk, back asap, your thread is great food for thought, How about this, " if we are going to change the gold recovery to perfect, we gonna have to change our ways, :devil:. dramatically, like you say, "

" and equipment operating methods at the very least ". :smile:

  
JOE_S_INDY
16:44:06 Sat
May 1 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

Hey Kave -

Excellent thread!

Something from my "Humble Re-Training in the Manly Art of Panning" at Nome came to mind, and should be of interest here.

When panning out Nome concentrates two "functional types", based on shape were encountered.

First were the typical round / thick shapes which behaved as usual - albeit usually small in size.

Next the tiny flat shapes - which were of two distinct types. One was flat but with a bit of thickness and the other was flat and extremely thin.

The first type I recovered by putting a small amount in a large bottomed pan, placing the pan on a level surface and wiggling or jerking the pan briskly, until the Gold had settled flat to the bottom of the concentrates. Then the pan was tilted up a little and keeping that exact angle, I used the water to slowly wash the lighter material (and the extremely thin Gold) away from whatever Gold that would hug the pan and stay in place. Tapping would then move that easier Gold to the upper crease where it could be suckered away.

Two or three times and the """Easier Gold""" was removed while the much harder shape (dredger's colourfully described 'Kitey Gold') was left. Some of the Kitey Gold could then be panned out - and the rest was just put aside in reserve. Too much time and frustration had to be invested in recovering that Gold to do it in the field - and so, much later, either the "Silver Ball Method" or very meticulous winter panning was the way to go with that. The worst, of course, is the minus 50 mesh.

Joe








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Wiser Mining Through Endless Personal Mistakes
 
 
dredger
00:17:51 Sun
May 2 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

nother excellent and very inspiring post Joe, as always,

You wrote, "Something from my "Humble Re-Training in the Manly Art of Panning" at Nome came to mind ",

I hear what you are saying there, because when I went to New Zealand , I had had between 78 to 96 or about 18 years experience panning cons from a inland Australian river, ( no Glacier /placer ) then I tried Gray Mouth river NZ , where while gold mining I could see the ice and snow covered mountains, (and Dumb struck by the Glaciers I had seen in the Plane getting there, ) and fine gold,MAMA< I did have my scope on hand ( sorry no camera, ) and had the feeling of just being overwhelmed by bulk fine / kite y gold, that was a big shock,

I was also so very surprised at the volume of kite- y flake in the Nome sample, amazed actually, so much gold being blown away, before the final concentrate,

I agree, "Next the tiny flat shapes - which were of two distinct types. One was flat but with a bit of thickness and the other was flat and extremely thin ".

Also include these from Nome sample , I think the center stone was a garnet from Nome too,

Top is PGM ball, 3 bits of mangled PGM's, and a folded thin gold, with a possible air bubble inside,right side of the gold is thin, and left side shows a more thicker side, my line of thought is these are or would be very Kite y in a gentle motion of a pan, they are only tiny bits,

Oh, Oh, ok, where you say " placing the pan on a level surface and wiggling or jerking the pan briskly, until the Gold had settled flat to the bottom of the concentrates. Then the pan was tilted up a little and keeping that exact angle, I used the water to slowly wash the lighter material (and the extremely thin Gold) away from whatever Gold that would hug the pan and stay in place ",

. Reminded me of a ??? thing i used to do with my scope, relating to what you say above, I would shake the gold done to where I was happy to start back washing the lighter sands, ok, at that point , I was wondering what the gold looked like at the upper /med / bottom levels, and what shape it was,ect, and what was keeping it up and not allowing it to settle, so on many occasions I made sure I floated all the dirty water out of the half -quarter pan sample concentrate, I again settled the gold taking ample time, , and set the pan aside on a big hot rock and let them / it dry, once dry I could place the pan under my scope, but before that I would quickly excavate a half section of the fairly packed dry cons, with a blade and small spoon, please note, the gravels are pretty stuck together and not loose, so it is easy to "scrape " the or a miniature slanted work face, with the proper light, the tiny gold is easy to see, also clearly shows everything,

Now the point or method i would like to make with my fellow scope-rs is to " quickly " work a cons face in a small gold pan, with a scope, you need to hold the blade or scraper / small thin knife, ( scalpel ), with your thumb and 2 first fingers, last two fingers are used to move the small pan around, on the other hand the last two fingers are used to assist in moving the pan, and the first two fingers and thumb are quickly turning the focus dial,

This scope method of quickly moving around and quickly focus on objects/gold 2-3 " deep miniature work face is really handy, and interesting, blar blar, hope ya try it for yourself, it will also allow you to visualize the layers of gold and gravels when you are actually shaking the gold down with water,

Please note you said , " Two or three times and the """Easier Gold""" was removed while the much harder shape (dredger's colourfully described 'Kitey Gold') was left. Some of the Kitey Gold could then be panned out - and the rest was just put aside in reserve. Too much time and frustration had to be invested in recovering that Gold to do it in the field - so, much later,"
Joe , I hear your words as a clear verification to my thoughts, the chunky and the kitey have to be separated, a clear separation before we pan or sluice using our current pans or sluices, I am working/thinking on some ideas kaveman gave me,slate table, that I might use in my planned future processing unit, first ideas appear to be able to be scaled back down to a Nome beach style box, maybe, ??. might "look " weird though, ???. a sort of a pre-classification of chunky and kitey , the kitey being processed or concentrated down in a totally different concept then pan / sluice,

Working on that back asap. dredger.



:devil:

  
JOE_S_INDY
02:47:51 Sun
May 2 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

"...I had had between 78 to 96 or about 18 years experience panning cons from a inland Australian river..."

He, He! Sir Phillip, I had from '66 to '95 - or 29 years of experience to un-learn. At first I was just furiously fustrated at my inadequate processing of the extremely small and extremely flat 'kitey" Gold shapes. Years and years of suscessful experience just had to be thrown out the window and entirely re-learned. It was humbling and frustrating to completely start over.

In the end, the experience made me a MUCH better panner - but for weeks I was not a pleasant person to be around at the end of the day!

My mate of 55 years, Mike, only had a week to try to learn what I had been struggling with for 3 weeks up to that point. I tried to help all I could - but Mike would 'Speak Directly with God' a lot during panning times for the week or so that he was there. He calmed down a lot after we left. The only 'thing' is that you never (!) want to say the words "Nome Gold" if the preacher is visiting.

Joe






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Wiser Mining Through Endless Personal Mistakes
 
 
dredger
03:41:43 Sun
May 2 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

Hahahahaha,

Next time Mike talks directly, could he ask all gold be put in my pocket, please,

  
goldnuggetsalescom
21:47:53 Tue
May 11 2010

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Re: "Nearly all gold is flattened"

I have been collecting gold nuggets for quite some time and I have to say that most gold nuggets are not flat. I know because I have spent years searching for flat nuggets, as they are wonderful for jewelry making and they are often difficult to find in any quantity. Having said that, there are some locations where the majority of the nuggets are flat, but many other locations where a flat nugget is a real rarity.

  

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