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Mineral_Estate_Grantee
23:08:20 Thu
Apr 9 2009

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Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Down Load and listen to this:

http://www.restoretherepublicradio.com/?page=viewarchive.aspx%3fid%3d629

Oregon Revised Statute Chapter 517 — Mining and Mining Claims
http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/517.html
517.133 Interfering with a mining operation. (1) As used in this section, “lawful mining operation” means any small scale mining operation that is in full compliance with state and federal laws.
(2) A person commits the crime of interfering with a mining operation if the person intentionally:
(a) Interferes with a lawful mining operation; or
(b) Stops, or causes to be stopped, a lawful mining operation.
(3) Interfering with a mining operation is a Class C misdemeanor. [1999 c.354 §6]

Note: See note under 517.120.


  
tenderfootminer
23:33:38 Thu
Apr 9 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Us miners need to keep in mind when on a claim we dont own the land.In my area there are gates to state land and miners who get ugly when hunters/campers come down the old trails and use state land.I have several claims and understand not wanting someone to mess with my equipt. but feel some of us have forgotten its mineral rights we have. alot of the hunters in our areas are just good ole boys enjoying there hobbys just like us and I have found them to be good company.....just my opinion....ws

  
Mineral_Estate_Grantee
14:22:58 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

"Us miners need to keep in mind when on a claim we dont own the land."

Where does it say that??? The LAW says otherwise.

  
Mineral_Estate_Grantee
16:11:49 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

I would ask that anyone believing in what the Forest Service and BLM tells you about not having the right to the property of your mining claim go and read the Disclaimer posted on the agencies' web page...or just read it from here: http://www.grantedright.com/The_Myth.html

Note: The Forest Service, BLM, Fish and Wildlife...are all members of this union: IUCN, the International Union for Conservation of Nature; Eco/Spiritual practices, a United Nations Cancer on American soil…an international anti private property organization.
[1 edits; Last edit by Mineral_Estate_Grantee at 16:28:13 Fri Apr 10 2009]

  
kringle_mining
17:05:29 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Not Alaskan law nor the BLM lands in Alaska. Tenderfoot is correct. Claim holders have rights to mineral extraction only, and rights to the privaleges and protections given the miner in the permitting process.

A patent holder is the exception.
Fight your legal battles within the constraints of the law.
I do agree that we are a republic M.E.G.. but you really need to tone down your goose stepping.
Kringle
[1 edits; Last edit by kringle_mining at 17:44:44 Fri Apr 10 2009]

  
Mineral_Estate_Grantee
19:18:01 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

krinkgle, The Mineral Estate Grantee has AS patent rights as long as he/she have a valid mineral operation.

  
Mineral_Estate_Grantee
19:31:56 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Again I ask, Where does it say that??? The LAW says otherwise.

  
Zooka
19:55:37 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

MEG, you are incorrect.
Whatever "LAW" you are referring to, the actual law of the land as written by the legislatures, enforced by the cops, and interpreted by the courts, is different. That is the legal process; laws are written, and then interpreted by courts, and then re-written, and re-interpreted. The law constantly changes and evolves.
One great example is what the Constitution says about US currency - it has to be silver and gold. That is the ultimate written "law " , but that section is pretty much ignored in actuality.
Banging a drum about some alleged "LAW" that you interpret to give you more rights than the legislatures, courts and law enforcement acknowledge you to have is just an invitation to trouble, and a fight you aint gonna win. Move on to something more productive, is my suggestion.

  
kamikaze1a
20:02:54 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

I wonder what brought about the confrontation? It would appear that it was about them being on his claim BUT the release did not actually say that. For all we know, they were doing some wrong or assaulting the miner...
[1 edits; Last edit by kamikaze1a at 20:03:21 Fri Apr 10 2009]

  
tabwyo
20:29:51 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

I was prospecting in National Forest land last summer looking for a place worth filing a claim on. I had the propper permits, was within the season and abiding by all DEQ & NFS regulations. And I was still harassed by granola chomping hippies. But their threats of physical violence stoped when I took of my jacket and they saw my holstered 357 and shoulder holstered 38 snub. Then they hightailed it and got a park ranger. Who inspected my operation, permits (including my concealed weapons permit) and was satissified after asking a couple questions. Then informed the "huggers" I was well within my right to be there prospectin. If somebody wants to have a beef with you they are most likely not going to be disuaded by your LEGAL right to be there. Most of those idiots are flat ignorant when it comes to the actual law that it's almost worthless arguing with them.

I don't condone lethal physical recourse unless I am in position to recieve injury myslef. But I am not past lobbing two rounds over somebodies head if they are trashing my property.
[1 edits; Last edit by tabwyo at 20:30:52 Fri Apr 10 2009]

  
Mineral_Estate_Grantee
23:29:44 Fri
Apr 10 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

This pertains only to those public domain lands subject to the Grant Act of 1866.

This does not include state lands, although Oregon State statute recognizes a presumptive trespass regarding mining claims which is enjoyed only by a property right, not a permission.

Tenderfoot if your claims are on state land this does not pertain to you. If your claims are on the public domain subject to the grant, by your statements, you profess absolute ignorance of the law and your rights and entitlements so it does not surprise Me that you respond as you do....this sort of ignorance is rampant in the mining community. In either case you are in no position to characterize my information as advice or force it where it doesn't belong to demean me.

Kringle, thank you for the clarification. But as far as the land subject to the grant Tenderfoot is wrong.

Zooka..... by "some alleged law", What do you think allows you to enjoy the mineral estate in the first instance? If there was not law what was it the appellate court used to find Hicks 2002 not guilty of trespass when he was using a "Closed" Forest Service route? on a Plain Error review no less..... And Hicks just won again in 2009. Here's the actual law on the books: http://www.grantedright.com/The_Law.html

Ignorance may be bliss folks but it is no way to protect your property rights. Whining about the "actual law of the land as written by the legislatures, enforced by the cops, and interpreted by the courts, is different" is not law where it is contrary to the law.

"Mineral rights are ownership in land, and therefore Lewis is a landowner. See, e.g., United States v. Shoshone Tribe of Indians of Wind River Reservation in Wyo., 304 U.S. 111, 116, 58 S.Ct. 794, 82 L.Ed. 1213 (1938) (with respect to question of ownership, “[m]inerals ... are constituent elements of the land itself”); British-American Oil Producing Co. v. Bd. of Equalization of State of Mont., 299 U.S. 159, 164-65, 57 S.Ct. 132, 81 L.Ed. 95 (1936) (finding a mineral estate an estate in land); Texas Pac. Coal & Oil Co. v. State, 125 Mont. 258, 234 P.2d 452, 453 (1951) (“[l]ands as a word in the law includes minerals”). We need not decide whether the term “landowner” as it is used in Forest Service regulations and orders always includes owners of mineral estates. Here, the government conceded at oral argument that Lewis is a landowner under the terms of the closure order before us and thus exempt from this closure order. " Hicks 2002.

kamikaze1a Here is more info on the Miner Altercation. Off-Roader Shot by Miner
One Account http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?t=23638
or here for two more sources of explaination:
http://www.restoretherepublicradio.com/Behind_the_Woodshed_Week_In_Review_Special_Interest_Altercations

There is more information coming about this matter. A local Mining Association may be getting involved to help the miner out, if it can. ... And they aren't helping because the miner does not have any property rights or entitlements as so many ignorantly profess, I can assure you.

And I suggest, before any one here believes they know so much or enough to mischaracterize the information I offer or let the ignorance of their rights lead the discussion, or by past attempts at defense based upon faulty premises, or as defended by attorney most of which don't have a clue about the Grant of 1866, let me bring in some more independent opinions to see what they have to say to conclude Mining Claims Are Private Property Of The Highest Sense.

This possessory interest entitles the claimant to "the right to extract all minerals from the claim without paying royalties to the United States." Swanson v. Babbitt, 3 F.3d 1348, 1350 (9th Cir. 1993).

The holder of a claim supported by a discovery need not seek patent; his unpatented mining claim remains a fully recognized possessory right. 30 U.S.C. § 39; United States v. Locke, 471 U.S. 84, 86 (1985).

Federal mining claims are "private property" Freese v. United States, 639 F.2d 754, 757, 226 Ct.Cl. 252 cert. denied, 454 U.S. 827, 102 S.Ct. 119, 70 L.Ed.2d 103 (1981); Oil Shale Corp. v. Morton, 370 F.Supp. 108, 124 (D.Colo. 1973).

Even though title to the fee estate remains in the United States, these unpatented mining claims are themselves property protected by the Fifth Amendment against uncompensated takings. See Best v. Humboldt Placer Mining Co., 371 U.S. 334 (1963); cf. Forbes v. Gracey, 94 U.S. 762, 766 (1876); U.S.C.A.Const. Amend. 5; North American Transportation & Trading Co. v. U.S., 1918, 53 Ct.Cl. 424, affirmed 40 S.Ct. 518, 253 U.S. 330; United States v. Locke, 471 U.S. 84, 107, 105 S.Ct. 1785, 1799, 85 L.Ed. 2d 64 (1985); Freese v. United States, 639 F.2d 754, 757, 226 Ct.Cl. 252, cert. denied, 454 U.S. 827, 102 S.Ct. 119, 70 L.Ed. 2d 103 (1981); Rybachek v. United States, 23 Cl.Ct. 222 (1991).

Such an interest may be asserted against the United States as well as against third parties (see Best v. Humboldt Placer Mining Co., 371 U.S. 334, 336 (1963); Gwillim v. Donnellan, 115 U.S. 45, 50 (1885)) and may not be taken from the claimant by the United States without due compensation. See United States v. North American Transportation & Trading Co., 253 U.S. 330 (1920); cf. Best v. Humboldt Placer Mining Co., supra.

"Uncompensated divestment" of a valid unpatented mining claim would violate the Constitution. Freese v. United States, 639 F.2d 754, 757, 226 Ct.Cl. 252, cert. denied, 454 U.S. 827, 102 S.Ct. 119, 70 L.Ed. 2d 103 (1981).

A valid location, though unpatented, is a grant in the nature of an estate in fee and if such an estate is taken by the United States, just compensation must be made. See U.S.C.A. Const. Amend. 5, North American Transportation & Trading Co. v. U.S., 1918, 53 Ct.Cl. 424, affirmed 40 S.Ct. 518, 253 U.S. 330.

A (unpatented) mining claim has been "perfected" where, assuming the performance of the requisite acts of location and recordation, a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit has been made within the physical limits of the claim. See, e.g., United States v. Mavros, 122 IBLA 297, 301-302 (1992); United States v. Nickol, 9 IBLA 117, 122 (1973); Clear Gravel Enterprises, Inc., A-27967 (Dec. 29, 1959).

"When the location of a mining claim is "perfected" under the law, it has the effect of a grant by the United States of the right of present and exclusive possession. The claim is property in the fullest sense of that term; and may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited without infringing any right or title of the United States. The right of the owner is taxable by the state; and is "real property", subject to the lien of a judgment recovered against the owner in a state or territorial court. The owner is not required to purchase the claim or secure patent from the United States; but so long as he complies with the provisions of the mining laws his possessory right, for all practical purposes of ownership, is as good as though secured by patent." Wilbur v. U.S. ex rel. Krushnic, 1930, 50 S.Ct. 103, 280 U.S. 306, 74 L.Ed. 445.

The claimant has the exclusive right to possession and enjoyment of all the surface included within the lines of the locations, but the United States retains title to the land. 30 U.S.C. § 26, 35; Union Oil Co. of California v. Smith, 249 U.S. 337, 349 (1919); Wilbur v. U.S. ex rel. Krushnic, 1930, 50 S.Ct. 103, 280 U.S. 306, 74 L.Ed. 445; California Coastal Comm'n v. Granite Rock Co., 480 U.S. 572, 575, 107 S.Ct. 1419, 1422, 94 L.Ed. 2d 577 (1987); Swanson v. Babbitt, 3 F.3d 1348, 1350 (9th Cir. 1993).

So if someone has a better proof than this I'd like to see it....Don't attack Me with your continuous ignorance regarding the property, rights, and entitlements of the Mineral Estate Grantee. You unsubstantiated opinions do nothing for the community but waste our time and misinform us....bring your proof, not your weaknesses.

  
tenderfootminer
00:49:33 Sat
Apr 11 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

:confused: did I just get barked at???:confused:

  
JOE_S_INDY
02:17:20 Sat
Apr 11 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Hey there Walt!

Yes, I think you were barked at! It sure did sound like barking!

Joe
[3 edits; Last edit by JOE_S_INDY at 03:54:30 Sun Apr 12 2009]



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RUSTY_HAPPY_CAM
03:34:39 Sat
Apr 11 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Guys Time out. I would like to think we are all on the same side here and we are defiantly a minority. We sure don't need to be fighting among ourselves. Joe you and Hal Anthony are the only two that I have met personally and I feel privileged to know you. I have great respect for the others that I have met through the forum. Most of you have enlarged my mining horizons. Hal has opened a real can of worms with his research into our problems with mining law. Sometimes he comes off a little strong, but he has spent a lot of time on this project and really takes it to hart. Most of the stuff he has brought up goes against what we have always been told. But does that make it wrong? I don't have the legal knowledge to answer that question but I am sure glad he has brought it up. I don't know know what I will do with these facts, but you can bet I will file them away for future thought.
[1 edits; Last edit by RUSTY_HAPPY_CAM at 03:39:34 Sat Apr 11 2009]

  
LipCa
03:38:54 Sat
Apr 11 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Can't say much for the the attitude, but there appear to be a lot of court cases that stand behind the miner and his "ownership" of the minerals.....

  
BC_Redneck
17:37:31 Sat
Apr 11 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

The miner has one right,been there done that and the courts agree,the land is public the dirt is yours..as long as they aint diggin they aint doing anything wrong.

I had an issue with some people on quads in the area and when the law was involved all that could b done was reporting them for riding in a non designated area (we have areas for riders). they were cought and charged for trespassing because of the area and also chrcged for damages to private property(goverment owned),

the officer i had spoke with during this time also said to me that he understood that as the claim owner on the property i have the right to remove some trees if they are obstruting my search,,those trees are now spread out around my claim about 2 feet off the ground and blocking all access !!!

  
Jim_Alaska
00:49:35 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Sorry folks, I have been away from home travelling for testimony before the California Dept of Fish and Game Commission hearing on our petition to shut down the Karuk illegal salmon fishery. (our petition was denied)

I only have computer access when I stop at someone’s house that has a computer, so my presence on the forums is spotty until I get back home.

I just wanted to speak a bit to the issue presented by Hal Anthony and replied to by Joe_S_Indy. I know both men as personal friends and have great respect for each one’s wisdom and expertize in their own specific sphere of mining issues.

Joe has a heart of gold and has, over the years, been more than willing to share his knowledge and experiences with all who ask. His contributions to this and other message forums is invaluable.

I have worked on property and mining rights issues with Hal and he has opened a whole new area of understanding for me due to his dilligent research and understanding of law and the meaning of words.

On the issue of the Mineral Estate Grant, he has uncovered what could very well be the very tool that we, as miners, have been lacking for these many years. He is presently working with and consulting for Jerry Hobbs and Clark Pearson of Public Lands for the People, who have both come to a better understanding of the immense power of this Mineral Estate Grant.

Knowing both Joe and Hal as I do, I am convinced that any seeming differences that they may have put forth here are totally due to the unique character of the Internet; It has within itself the unfortunate consequence of the written word coming through on the other end in a manner quite different from what was intended. We cannot see facial expressions or body language and can only rely on what we see typed out.

As I said, because both men are a known commodity to me, I feel sure that any differences and/or misunderstandings could be entirely dealt with by better communication on a personal level between them both. If given a chance, I believe that both men could become fast friends that would have the potential to benefit everyone they come in contact with once each comes to a full understanding of the capabilities and motivation of the other.

Joe constanly goes out of his way to help anyone he can, he has a unique gift of understanding a given situation and then putting his brilliant mind to work to solve a problem, or impart advice on any subject that he has experience with.

Hal is on a crusade to help miners and other property owners realize the potential they have with a proper understanding of how they got where they are and what tools are at their disposal to remedy the injustices we are beset with today. He has helped me immensely with our battle for miner’s rights and provided volumes of information that cannot be disputed by agencies, lawyers or legislators.

OK, that’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

Oh, did I say that I hate southern California? I travel down here only because I have to. If I had a choice, I would rather stay home....:confused:



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JOE_S_INDY
03:52:00 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Well Jim,

Mr Anthony (Hey, we have a name now!) never identified himself, qualified his abilities or explained what his premise was. He chose, instead, to act in a condescending manner with us old dirt miners (and one sharp 'ole Texas lawyer). If he had not been so brisk with us we would have, most certainly, welcomed his insight.

Given the absence of those qualifiers, and 'the attitude', he fell into the often seen pattern of just another dogmatic fanatic on a personal crusade.

Dismissing, off hand, any views other than his (ill defined ones) was really irritating. What would most folks think if I pointed to The Constitution and curtly stated "Just read that and you'll understand everything about blah, blah, blah" ? Most would consider my haughty manner to be really offensive too, right?

To complicate this entire gumbo is some page 3 news item over a no-information-about-it, shots fired, confrontation. Mr Anthony appeared to support armed defense of "Off the Wall" and undefined "Rights" rooted in "Mineral Estate".

I have a real problem with that.

To sum up Mr Anthony's presentation - he sounded like one of those lunatic, militia fanatics that I fervently wish would just go away - very far away.

Now, I tried to be tolerant. Some of his earlier postings here on the AGF didn't "come through" - and I, as a courtesy, even sent a PM to "Mineral Estate Grantee", explaining the lack of success with the postings. Not one word back to even just say "Thanks" - as a common courtesy. No one is that busy.

Then his postings were repetitively posted on two other forums (that I know about) - with identical reactions there. (You might wish to read 49er Mike's posting on his forum).

Now, we all want to, and do, learn an endless variety of things here. We all try to keep a fairly open mind on mining, laws, and who-knows-what other related things.

All we require, as a minimum, is mutual civility - right?

Joe
[1 edits; Last edit by JOE_S_INDY at 22:18:20 Sun Apr 12 2009]

  
LipCa
14:38:34 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Jim,
I didn't know you were going to Southern Ca.?
I thought you were going to Lodi which is still in Northern Ca.....

  
Jim_Alaska
15:21:47 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Yes Joe, you're right about his abilities and premise not being fully explained. That's why I said that if you got to know each other better I believe things would become much more clear.

Hal has not done forums before a month or so ago and is not real savvy about the little nuances of forum etiquette. He spends more or all of every day in intensive research and trying to get his message out. It is important to listen to his broadcasts for anyone wanting to get a real handle on what this mineral estate is and who Hal Anthony is also.



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Jim (Alaska)
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Jim_Alaska
15:24:02 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Harry,

Yes the hearing was in Lodi. But I also agreed to pick up a dredge and some mining equipment for a friend a little farther south.

I also figured if I was going that far south I should visit with my son who lives just south of Irvine, so that's where I am until tomorrow.



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Jim (Alaska)
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LipCa
19:15:17 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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now i'm feeling sorry for you..grin

  
Jim_Alaska
19:25:24 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Thanks Harry. Isn't it ironic that someone would travel 900 miles one way to get to a place he hates? :confused:

If it weren't for my son and his family living here, I would never come down here at all. Nothing I want here and nothing here that wants me except family. :devil:



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Jim (Alaska)
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rlh1946
19:40:25 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

well Jim we all can`t live where we want some one has to live here in "BAKERSFIELD" :welcome:

  
Jim_Alaska
19:45:24 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

I didn't know you lived in Bakersfield Rich.

I came right through there and would have loved to stop and visit for a few minutes.



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Jim (Alaska)
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rlh1946
20:36:15 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

yep I married a native bakersfield girl, back in 1970 we moved away following work, an moved back here 1987.

  
LipCa
20:50:00 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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I have relatives in Bakersfield(Old River) and make it down there twice a year. I fact one time at the end of next month:mad:

  
mefolkes
21:48:53 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Jim, you have a very valid point, and the outlook of a peacemaker. But I still have to side with Joe. Mr. Anthony came across as an extremely grumpy and tone-deaf bongo player who couldn't understand why he wasn't welcomed onstage during a performance of Beethoven by the Philadelphia Symphony.

My own sentiments fit more the peacemaker mode than the confrontational mode, and I'm willing to bury the hatchet, as long as it isn't buried in my noggin. So if this personal friend of yours now understands forum etiquette and is willing to respect the opinions of others, I will welcome him as a friend.

I still think Mr. Anthony's ideas are preposterous. He needs to make a cogent and calm presentation and try to persuade us, not insult and browbeat us.

This enormous body of evidence that Mr. Anthony claims to have uncovered smells of the attitudes of ranchers holding BLM grazing permits. Those permits specifically state that they are not exclusive and that other users not interfering with the permitee's grazing livestock and private possessions have open access. But many ranchers treat the BLM land under permit as they would private land that has been fully leased (under far higher payments). I am one of many hunters, fishermen and rockhounds who have been threatened with arrest, threatened with injury or death, harassed and had vehicles vandalized and equipment confiscated by aggressive grazing permit holders without a legal leg to stand on. As an American, I refuse to let a bully take away my rights, either in domestic or international situations.

I look forward to Mr. Anthony returning here with a civil attitude and respect for other participants. An open mind on his part would also be welcome. Despite your description of him as brilliant, he could still be dead wrong, and I, who am often described as brilliant, will not blindly accept what is shoveled at me. I look forward to a placid discussion of the issue.

Jim, again I thank you for serving in a thankless position. At times I think that you are a greater treasure than that yellow metal we all seek.

  
Jim_Alaska
22:56:16 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation

Thank you mefolkes. Some of what you said reinforces some points I was trying to make.

This is strictly my own guess, but I think that Hal has so much time into what he does that once he has published his points in his postings where you get to listen to the live show, he is loathe to spend time trying to type it all out.

The shows really do put the whole concept into perspective. You can go back in his archives and listen to the very first ones.

For just one example, you spoke of grazing rights, and said, "Those permits specifically state that they are not exclusive and that other users not interfering with the permitee's grazing livestock and private possessions have open access. "

Unlike that situation, the Mineral Estate grant is not a "permit" it is a "law" and specifically states that we have the "exclusive" use of the surface.

Miners really should take the time to read the grant, it is long, but well worth the read if you want to know what the Congress granted us in 1866, and understand the power we have if we will use it.



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sawmill
04:37:54 Mon
Apr 13 2009

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Re: Miner jailed for shooting four-wheeler during confrontation


Just a reminder, We are talking about the US government
right? Basically the same folks that made hundreds of
treaties,and grants of land and rights to dozens of Indian
tribes.
According to history and records,they didn't honor too
many of their grants for those folks either. So just how
much is a government grant really worth?

How long would it take to land in court or possibly jail,
mining on a piece of federal land,without a notice or
Plan of Operations?

I wish anyone that wants to tackle the rights thing
good luck,and will be the first one to cheer for them.
But I sure wouldn't want to volunteer to be the victim in
the test.

  

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