23:39:05 Thu
Sep 16 2004
| Re: Cosmic County |
, but just keep in mind this part of the forum is for rebolting issues only, if your gonna waffle or stray of topic, flame or burn someone just do it in one of the other sections.
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julianandersen 00:57:21 Mon Sep 13 2004 |
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hipdos 04:57:20 Tue Sep 14 2004 |
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trentsadventures 05:04:07 Tue Sep 14 2004 |
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shawkshaw 05:22:18 Tue Sep 14 2004 |
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julianandersen 00:28:50 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
Chris and I climbed there yesterday and noticed a few things are getting replaced. I still think some routes should stay on carrots, esp ones with gear. EG : Allied Chemical News is now a FH on the first ( so you can stick clip if you want too), then 2 BR's. The clips arn't desperate so I don't think it needed rings. You still have to walk down the gully, which due to the low traffic of the area isn't erroded much, therefore it doesn't need lower-offs. |
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julianandersen 03:19:44 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
How's this for a start Mid-life Crisis - Rings. Alhelal - RB on first 2 (to replace crap BR and FH), Or 2 FH's. Then BR's. Xerxes - Carrots. Rap station on ledge at top Toyland - Rings, lower-off. Hollow Men - Rings, lower-off I'd Rather be sailing - Carrots. plus another RB to rap off. Rap station improvement above Razor Blade Alley. Clip or Die - ??. It's been drilled for rings. Rap station at top. Building a better Mousetrap - Lower-offs (bolts are OK) Walking Wounded - ??? Don't want to get drawn into this one. 80 min Hr, Barefoot in the head, Mekong Charlie - Carrots. The Green Eyed Monster - Rings Mindblower - Carrots, Lower-off Rap station above Interstate, Junction City etc - to save the tree. Barbarossa - Carrots. Highlites - Rings Lapsed Catholics - Rings Fear in the Western World - Rings, plus new Lower-offs to avoid the traverse at the top. Just to name a few.... |
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hipdos 04:00:12 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
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Chris_Y 04:15:06 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
Chris |
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shawkshaw 04:21:18 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
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Cragx 04:35:44 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
It been ages since I did that route, but from memory it all carrots no trad, why not just do rings? Or maybe just ring/hanger at start which is the crux anyway, for stock clipping |
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vwills 06:16:07 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
I'd love to see a stick-clippable ring at the start of I'd rather be sailing but that would be retro bolting wouldn't it. |
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burroughs 09:29:19 Wed Sep 15 2004 |
Re. Walking Wounded. Giles is happy for rings and for the gear placements to be done away with. Re. Fear itWW. Have you noticed that some brackets can be lifted off the carrots with the draws still attached? The routes from 'Candle Power' through to 'Hollow Man' will be rebolted with rings - excluding 'Gentleman's Drag' of course. Why? Because they're hard! Briefly the following have expressed the views that their climbs (if they be theirs?) be rebolted using rings and lower-offs. J.Smoothy G.Bradbury G.Childs M.Law G.Weigand A.Prehn R.Young M.Moore F.Moon S.Moon There are many more....I suggest that you contact them before renewing their route. I have contact numbers for most. Please though, whatever you do remember that we are all affected by the actions of each individual let's get a Plan of Action together before we tackle Cosmic and gain consensus. |
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Mrkyle 01:11:13 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
Personally, my stance is to keep the majority of routes equiped with carrots – particularly routes on slabs to vertical. Perhaps even just to preserve climbing history. Wouldn’t it be nice to have one RING-FREE crag? I think everyone should have a good think about that. That said, if everyone favours rings, I would suggest rings are appropriate on routes like: Hollow Men Shimmering Incandesence Green-Eye Monster and possibly Toyland and Aesthetic Images. Having said that, I find Toyland and Aesthetic Images very commiting routes, and they will definitely lose 'something' on rings. Lower-offs/rap-stations are definitely appropriate at a number of places for envrio reasons. As for Walking Wounded, I don’t see any reason why this should be done on rings – it’s a great and very memorable experience on carrots. There is no denying the placement of the carrots is a bit off, and should be moved. Certainly, the cam placement should stay – it’s good, and it adds to the feel of the route. |
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rogerb 01:53:52 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
Sounds like a nice idea to me. Perhaps even first ascentionists should consider the ideas of the general climbing community before the rebolting of their own routes. Everyone seems to agree that the first ascentionist doesn't own the route, but would also probably agree that the first ascentionist's opinion might carry more weight than another individual's opinion. I dont see a lot of point in the County being rebolted half carrots and half rings. I dont remember the clips on Toyland, for example, being particularly troublesome - far less so than the climbing. On most old routes a fixed bracket was used if the clip was desperate (RELATIVER to the grade of the climb). These are the obvious ones to replace with rings. Walking Wounded is a bit of a special case and maybe needs a special consensus agreement before rebolting. The current feel of it is positively English. Why not preserve it that way? Its not as if the mountains is full of such routes. Let it keep its reputation and everyone will feel better when they tick it. Your head will get a whole lot bigger in the pub when you say "I did Walking Wounded today " and you dont immediately get the reply that its not the route it used to be. If people agree to attempt to preserve the feel and history of the crag then it doesnt make much sense to me to go only haf way. Either way, its refreshing for me to see how many climbers are happy to stick with carrots. |
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chris_coghill 01:53:58 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
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hipdos 02:04:52 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
This is a prime example of why I started a post on painting rings. There will definitely be a group of people who don't want Cosmic bristling with shiny ringbolts, but a lot of these people will be happy if the rings are painted, thereby removing the threat to the aesthetics of the crag. I would guess that consensus could be achieved quickest if the rebolting is a combination of rings on the hard / hard to clip stuff and bolts on slabs and easier routes, plus an undertaking to paint all the rings. What is everyone going to do with their rack of bolt plates if it's all rings? Walking Wounded is an interesting one. For a start it is right in your face when you come down the gully. It is he style of climb that begs for rings, but leaving the first cam placement followed by a line of rings would seem a bit funny. Then you have the masses of chalk that would be more obvious than rings in any case. Hmm... What is the process of getting consensus? Who does the Plan of Action? |
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chris_coghill 02:09:47 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
Cosmic would have been rebolted years ago if everybody with an opinion backed it up with actions! |
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hipdos 02:15:52 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
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rogerb 02:25:48 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
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Chris_Y 03:00:20 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
However, I think many people view this place with rose coloured glasses on. To suggest that a route like Walking Wounded be kept as some kind of historical time capsule is crazy. The route as it currently stands is a testament to bad bolting practice. The first bolt needs positioning such that it can be clipped from the stance (without the need for a wire and long draw). Below the first wee roof the third bolt is quite unneccessary (and causes drag unless clipped with a sling). Currently this is a great route in limbo. With well positioned / re-positioned rings and a lower off this could again be one of the best routes of its kind in the Bluies. The County, from a historical perspective, is not a crag steeped in ethical purity and tradition. It was set up, (in the context of the time), as an early rendition of the modern sport crag! In many ways it is an 80's version of Thompsons Pt. A forcing ground for new tactics, (a different approach), to more traditional areas. The place is full of "sport climbing type" infrastructure, most routes are well protected (in the context of the time when they were put up), apart from some with dodgey starts. In many ways the time is ripe to "improve" the place and where necessary correct some of the mistakes of the past to preserve the nature of one of the best crags in the Mountains. |
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rogerb 03:35:59 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
The way people bolted in the 80s, the amount of protection they sought, is different from now. That is what some of us are suggesting might be worth preserving. |
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Cragx 04:52:53 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
Carrots are a part of history as much as boots with bottle caps on the ends and fixed pitons instead of bolts, but are people screaming to have them back??? All idea that were cutting edge at the time, but are considered less than satisfactory now. And once again everybody is saying rings for harder, carrots for easier stuff...how is this justified??? You have to be climbing 23+ to enjoy the safety of a ring. If 16 is your limit then its hard for them isn't it? Cosmic is a moderate grade crag which means you get new climber there...if your gonna do a job keep them in mind. |
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Chris_Y 05:44:50 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
In response to rogers comment I am not suggesting the the County be turned into a Shipley clone. WW is a prime example, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that with a "considered" re-bolting approach, could possibly do with one less bolt. Also the chalk is not an indication of recent traffic... more that the wall below the high roof never sees the rain. Been up there to see how much chalk is on the upper wall above the roof??? Bolts, be they rings carrots or whatever are merely a protection medium. Using the best available protection medium will preserve the nature of the routes and the "climbing experience". It is up to the FA's and the climbing community to debate and decide the merits or otherwise of changing the nature of these climbs - (by adding, subtracting or manipulating the protection available)... |
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Duane_M 06:35:08 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
Clearly the Crag X administration are biasing the discussion on new bolts at the county by deleting legitimate forum entries, hence negating an open democratic debate. But then you may not see this entry either since there is a good chance it will be deleted. |
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Duane_M 07:03:22 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
Allow me articulate again my previous post. There seems to be a large number of people with strong opinions on re-bolting County. How many of these people are prepared to put in the time to place bolts? I'm not, and as a result accept that people who take time to rebolt the county should have a greater impact on the way in which it should be done than me. Ok Crag X I accept its not very profound but I thought deletion was a bit harsh...... |
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shawkshaw 07:06:17 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
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Mrkyle 07:07:40 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
The carrots at the County contribute very much to the character of the routes. And that character is highly valued and appreciated by a large number of climbers. Rings may ruin that. There is no reason to install rings in place of most carrots at Cosmic. So, why the push? Let's preserve something unique to our culture. Judging by the discussion here, I think it would be wise to lay off rebolting routes at the county in the short term. On a side note: Fixed hangers on Aesthetic Images... Dear oh dear. I hate fixed hangers - I strongly urge all climbers to avoid using them. Rings or Carrots, but not the dreaded in-between. Perhaps we should just call it 'Images' from now on. |
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Steve_M 07:17:16 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
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hipdos 09:03:40 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
I thought the whole point was that the old carrots are inherently unsafe and need to be replaced? It is going to happen eventually, so the sooner the better (and safer) I reckon. > If 16 is your limit then its hard for them isn't it? The point is, when a climb is at that grade it is almost certain that you are clipping from a relatively comfortable position, so the bolt plate is not a hassle, even if you don't climb real hard. Higher grade climbs may warrant rings because they can be sustained and desperate at the clip. There is justification for considering grade when choosing protection. > accept that people who take time to rebolt the county should have a greater impact on the way in which it should be done Don't agree with this at all, especially in this case with so many strong opinions. I am sure that the rebolters are keen to listen to non bolter's opinions on this one. Anyone who comes into this discussion and expects everyone to agree with them is crazy, there are too many different opinions. Any aggro will turn this into a useless flame war in about 2 seconds flat. So how to find a consensus? What about a poll? Some sort of opinion seeking exercise at the climbing gyms? Any ideas? |
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Josh_C 13:35:07 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
-safety the safety of the existing carrots is the reason the issue came up in the first place, whether by the quality, position or spacings of the bolt. -climbing ethics as mitch already said, the FA's have given permission for rebolting, so that side of things is taken care of. what we now need to ask for each case is whether the rebolting will benefit the rest of us (eg. whether its best to replace carrots with glue in machines to maintain the original style of the route etc. or whether it is in everyones best interests to move around bolts/change the type to make them easier to clip etc. |
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burroughs 21:59:53 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
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Duane_M 22:42:41 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
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Cragx 23:39:05 Thu Sep 16 2004 |
, but just keep in mind this part of the forum is for rebolting issues only, if your gonna waffle or stray of topic, flame or burn someone just do it in one of the other sections.
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Duane_M 02:00:33 Fri Sep 17 2004 |
Question: What is the usual practice for removing old bolts? Hacksaw? or do people try to pull them out? |
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trentsadventures 02:38:38 Fri Sep 17 2004 |
a pair of stilsens works ok especially if the head is overdriven and swolen. by far the best way is a carrot killer. kind of like a fly wheel puller for a car. basically a square plate with a slot from one edge to the centre (this slides on like a bolt plate). then there is a hole in each corner that is drilled and tapped to take a M10 bolt. once the killer is slotted over the carrot head. tighten the bolts in the corners one half turn per round. with luck the carrot draws straight out of the hole. occassionally it comes out so clean and easy that i can broaden the old hole and use it for one of the new hole for the UBs. carrot killers arent hard to make, and it does the best job. |
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adski 09:03:57 Fri Sep 17 2004 |
Character is an important part of climbing, hey? I love the character of Cosmic, those blank sheets of rock are a completely different style than most steepage on the Blackheath plateau. And I do like how you have to hunt for the carrots on your way up a route. I guess i've got a 'if it aint broke, don't fix it' attitude towards rebolting carrots, especially at crags like boyce, narrowneck and cosmic which aren't even in the modern climber's guidebooks! |
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shawkshaw 09:08:17 Fri Sep 17 2004 |
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hipdos 09:17:02 Fri Sep 17 2004 |
They are broke, as they are chronically prone to corrosion and tend to pull out when pulled out. My understanding is that the 'rebolting fever' is basically driven by these safety concerns...the question here is what sort of rebolting is appropriate, not whether or not it should take place. |
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phm 18:49:34 Tue Sep 28 2004 |
just wondering about your statement that Geoff Weigand doesn't mind having his routes rebolted. Have you actually been able to contact him about this? Also, I have had correspondence with Andrew Penney and he said, that he doesn't mind having his climbs rebolted 'as long as the character of the climb doesn't change'. To me, this seemed to be the crux with regards to the County. Most other old-timers that I have talked to about this issue have reacted similarly (including most dudes on your list). Are you going to respect this request? And where are you going to draw the line? Take Walking Wounded for a good example. If you respect Andrew Penney then certainly, you couldn't move the damn bolt down, could ya? When I considered rebolting some County routes some years ago now I decided that the time wasn't right and I left the County alone. I was worried that the controversy that would surface could cause problems for rebolting in general. Some 'People With An Opinion' were awfully protective about certain places including the County (at the time I was still a bit flabbergasted by the flak that we copped after giving Shipley a little make-over). Hopefully that has changed now. |
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Josh_C 22:57:36 Tue Sep 28 2004 |
with the kinda traffic shipley gets, that kind of response (to something that will ultimately preserve the climbing) is very worrying (to me at least) |
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phm 13:58:58 Wed Sep 29 2004 |
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Nick_Clow 04:12:00 Fri Oct 8 2004 |
re. phm's post above (selected bits below) > just wondering about your statement that Geoff Weigand doesn't mind having his routes rebolted. Have you actually been able to contact him about this? > Also, I have had correspondence with Andrew Penney and he said, that he doesn't mind having his climbs rebolted 'as long as the character of the climb doesn't change'. To me, this seemed to be the crux with regards to the County. Most other old-timers that I have talked to about this issue have reacted similarly (including most dudes on your list). > Are you going to respect this request? And where are you going to draw the line? Take Walking Wounded for a good example. If you respect Andrew Penney then certainly, you couldn't move the damn bolt down, could ya? Any answers to these Qs? |
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burroughs 08:58:25 Wed Oct 13 2004 |
What is changing the nature of the climb? If we can answer this question adequately we will then know where to draw the line? Do we replace dangerous anchors with new ones? Do we move anchors that are obviously badly positioned? Do we place 'LOWER-OFFS' beneath the cliff top to reduce erotion? Can we use modern technology to make the routes safer for longer? Do we need climbing accidents? What do we do when anchors become inadequate? Abandon the climb? How much right does a person who put up a climb 20yrs ago, has never bothered to put any effort into it in the 20yrs, to tell us what materials to use to renew it ? Many climbs that have been rebolted hadnt been climed for many years - they are now apparent classics. Who pays for all of this and who does all the work - who cares? Re: Geoff Weigand. I received an email from him through Greg Childs about 18mths ago. He was happy for us to renew his routes. That is; use modern gear and change positions of bolts if they were a). dangerous and b). in a 'silly' position to clip. (They used a different perspective in their day - mainly dictated by the equipment they had and the time they had to do it in. They never believed that climbing would become such a big time activity and that their routes would brcome trade. They bolted them, sent them and left! 10, 20 30 years ago.) Do we just stop climbing these routes when they become too dangerous? Or do we take them with us into the future, maybe for our grandkids to enjoy one day? I know what I want you all to do with my routes when I can no longer maintain them. |
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Nick_Clow 04:01:55 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
Your points about replacing anchors are fair and understood by everyone. > What is changing the nature of the climb? Throughout the 50, 60s, 70s, 80s (and continuing to this day) Australian climbing has a history and tradition. Carrot bolts are part of that tradition, as is topping out and using natural gear placements where they exist. Sport climbing - involving fully-equipped climbs with lower-offs - is a much more recent phenomenon. Essentially an import from France, What greatly concerns me is that sport climbing is taking over, the history/traditions of Australian climbing are being run roughshod over and that 'traditional' (Australian) climbs are being arbitrarily turned into sport climbs. As you can see from a number of replies on this thread, there are a number of people who simply do not think it is acceptable to turn Cosmic into just another sport crag. The climbing at Cosmic involves clipping carrots, using natural gear, topping out, some run-outs and has a number of slightly bold leads which are appealing to the many people around who respect and desire challenges which provide more variety than the circus performance of sport climbing (hard moves above an ever-present safety net). Whilst I am sure everyone greatly appreciates the effort, time and commitment you put into re-bolting routes, it is a fact of life that many people are going to get very, very upset if climbs are retro-bolted. Cheers N (PS Say Hi to Rod for me. I banged my elbow up and had 2 ops and 8 days in hospital in September. Catch up with him soon.) |
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burroughs 08:56:43 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
We have the technology to look to the future. Rebolting is not retro-bolting. It is renewal, and a chance to get in early and prove that we are taking our environment into consideration and that we do care about our access in the future. Sorry. Probably should be in another thread. I'll delete it and whack it somewhere else later. |
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Josh_C 14:12:24 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
if the boltsare dangerous, asmany of them apparently are, replce them with somethingsafe and sustainable. i have never been to the county, but it still managesto conjure respect mental images of scary runouts on gear, andi dont want that to change to the comfortised feeling of a throughly sport climb. if abolt is placeditshould be placed well, and ifneed be, replace. but where natural placememnts exist there shouldnt be bolts. what ivesaid is (should be) obvious but it seems like theres a lot of talk around something where i think it is pretty clear.... |
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shawkshaw 22:20:59 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
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Nick_Clow 23:04:25 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
Hmm Steve, there are a few things which involve higher than average bolt spacing! Have you done I'd Rather be Sailing, Tendon Tensioner, Comfortably Numb? : ) (Alhelal also probably has 'above average' distances between the bolts. Up to the 2nd bolt of AI?) |
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shawkshaw 23:14:42 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
i repsect peoples opinions on the traditional aspects of climbing at the county. its an awesome place. one thing to consider when pushing the traditional point though is where does it stop? if you want to hold onto tradition do not use SLCD's on routes done years ago as they were invented in "recent" times. if you are repeating a trad route done in the 50's or 60's should you use a hemp rope and protect the climb with thread hex nuts? where do you draw the line? steve |
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Nick_Clow 23:21:37 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
Exactly, Josh. > if the boltsare dangerous, asmany of them apparently are, replce them with somethingsafe and sustainable. i have never been to the county, but it still managesto conjure respect mental images of scary runouts on gear, andi dont want that to change to the comfortised feeling of a throughly sport climb. if abolt is placeditshould be placed well, and ifneed be, replace. but where natural placememnts exist there shouldnt be bolts. As I say. I am sure everyone appreciates the need to replace bolts (and appreciates the efforts of the dedicated few out there who give up their time and effort to do so.) But REBOLTING is replacing bolt for bolt. Replacing carrots with rings, adding lower-offs (where none existed), moving/adding/adjusting the position of bolts is RETROBOLTING. You have said in this thread, Mitch that that's what you intend to do at Cosmic. I hate to mention this as it has nothing to do with the County, but the prime example of a climb that has been changed fundamentally by retro-bolting is Language of Desire. It used to involve some commitment in bouldering up to the 3 cam placement and because the first carrot wasn't all that visible above that. Now that a ring sits next to the cam placement everyone stick clips it from the ground and it's just another sport climb. (LoD was, in any case, totally devalued by the grid lines of bolts that have appeared practically on top of it.) Several people I know were fairly outraged by LoD (including.highly interestingly, one of the persons on your list of people re. Cosmic at the start of this thread.) |
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Josh_C 23:48:25 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
also i dont want to getstarted with another argument on loweroffs, but when the FA's weredone it was likely that the topouts, as bundy said, only took into account THEIR ascent- they get up there and seea treeand rapoff...finewe'vealldone that but what about the hundreds of people repeating the lines? that puts undue stress on the topout area. |
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Nick_Clow 23:52:05 Thu Oct 14 2004 |
Well it sure as hell stops if the climbs are turned into sport climbs. > if you want to hold onto tradition do not use SLCD's on routes done years ago as they were invented in "recent" times. > if you are repeating a trad route done in the 50's or 60's should you use a hemp rope and protect the climb with thread hex nuts? where do you draw the line? Steve, I'm sorry but I don't see what point you are trying to make here with regard to fixed protection. |
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shawkshaw 00:05:35 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
doesn't the use of cams on a crack that was originally protected with wired hex nuts change the nature of that climb? i find it very weird... |
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Nick_Clow 00:11:41 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
I don't. > then at least make them solid this time round They weren't solid before ??? How many bolts have failed at Cosmic? > that puts undue stress on the topout area. People have been climbing at Cosmic for 25+ years. Just which eroded areas are we talking about?? Ooh the stress on topouts/walkdowns. Y..y..yessss. |
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Cragx 00:12:04 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
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Nick_Clow 00:20:09 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
I think the distinction is this: unlike cams, wires etc which are temporary forms of pro (which use the natural features of the rock and are removed by the second) a bolt is a permanent installation in the cliff. Any bolt is (or should be) a compromise between the permanent defacement of the rock and the need to stop human bodies hitting the ground. For me it goes without saying that the number of bolts placed should be minimised. |
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bundybear 00:22:24 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
Why are we having this discussion if the bolts dont need replacing. Carrots were only used at CC, cause Stainless 10mm rings/U were not available at the time. |
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shawkshaw 00:45:17 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
>unlike cams, wires etc which are temporary forms of >pro (which use the natural features of the rock and are >removed by the second) a bolt is a permanent >installation in the cliff. >Any bolt is (or should be) a compromise between the >permanent defacement of the rock and the need to >stop human bodies hitting the ground. >For me it goes without saying that the number of bolts >placed should be minimised. so whats the difference with placeing an old carrot with a camoflaged ring bolt?? they are much better and STRONGER (when you take into account the brackets you place on them) botl placements than carrots. a well camoflaged ring is hardly more intrusive than a carrot. if its just about stopping people hit the ground as you say. |
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Nick_Clow 01:03:18 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
Oh, so they are going to be camoflaged ringbolts?? That's not been mentioned on this thread so far.. Look, the point is this (as highlighted by myself and others earlier in this thread): Australian climbing has a long history (which includes carrot bolts), tradition and character which is presently being killed by sport climbing. I don't want to play follow the rings at Cosmic. I don't want it to become Thompson's Point or Shipley. |
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shawkshaw 01:19:25 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
is there a difference between playing follow the carrots or follow the rings? i dont think that it has been proposed to remove trad placements, just to replace, possibily reposition, and indeed remove bolts in some cases . what is the point of rePLACEing three badly position old carrots with three new badly position carrots. why not fiddle them a little and have two well positioned bolts (of any variety). in doing so we reduce the numner of bolts. >>For me it goes without saying that the number of bolts placed >>should be minimised. |
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Nick_Clow 01:30:09 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
Yes. > what is the point of rePLACEing three badly position old carrots with three new badly position carrots. Because that's the climb. Steve, arguing for 2 well-positioned bolts instead of three badly positioned bolts is a very good argument. However (as with the example of LoD) we all know that re-equipping Cosmic will inevitably involve someone making judgements about the position/necessity of fixed gear that will (detrimentally) change the nature of the climbs. |
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rogerb 01:33:25 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
That just isnt true. Carrots with fixed hangers were available and rarely used. Both are available now and I am placing carrots on a lot of new routes. So are others. Carrots are less conspicuous, easier to place, and the strength difference between them and rings or U's is totally academic. Nobody, NOBODY, has ever complained to me that I should have used riings (apart from somebody who hasnt done the routes). I have had far more people come up to me and say "thanks" or "great route", or whatever, for the carrot routes than for the ring bolted sports routes I've made. There is a big aesthetic difference between climbing a route equiped with carrots and one with rings. Some people, especially those who've been climbing <10 or so years, just dont get it. But just because somebody doesnt get it doesnt mean he can justify totally changing the character of the routes at The County (or anywhere else) that were bolted way before he (or she) started climbing. The character of routes (trad especially) evolves with time due to trad gear improvements etc. and rock wear. Retrobolting introduces a wholesale instantaneous major change to the character of a climb. The two processes are not related. The County now gets about one tenth of the traffic it did ten years ago. It's far more likely that most of the top outs will become overgrown in the next ten years than that they will develop an erosion problem. On the other hand, if we are going to turn the best routes there into sports climbs then no doubt the traffic WILL go up and the lower offs will be necessary. Self-fullfilling isnt it? (Double entendre intended). |
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shawkshaw 01:38:18 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
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Cragx 02:15:56 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
I cant see how replacing a carrot with a ring will change the character of the climb, but then you cant see how I cant see it dosn't. This rock climber who has been climbing (badly I might add) for 10 years will just search out the crags with rings and leave the carrots to all you hard men that like your antiques ad history. Ive clipped my share of carrots over the years and certainly wouldnt be worried if they all dis-appeared....just my opinion of course. And for the record, rings and U's are not harder to place than carrots, but just safer and as reliable over time, and a cammo ring bolt is pretty hard to see anyway....so as I see it, this is really just a discussion/dis-agreement over style of the climb. Dont cloud the issue to reinforce your arguements, with side arguements and irrelevant points... otherwise no one will agree (Not that everyone will anyway). |
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Duane_M 03:06:41 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
1) Rebolt (not retrobolt) routes that need new bolts and replace the old bolt with a new bolts not rings. (How much harder is it to place a bolt plate? seriously.) 2) Where top-outs are causing undue environmental erosion. Lower offs should be placed. (I can only think of one or two routes where this applies) Note: I haven't climbed a route at the county where I thought the original bolt placements were badly placed (because of the grade I climb at). |
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Cragx 04:00:37 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
Seems to me this solution is a bit eliteist towards people that climb higher grades? and also infers rings are the better solution but only worthy of a select few. |
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Duane_M 04:13:47 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
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Nick_Clow 04:16:11 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
> leave the carrots to all you hard men that like your antiques and history. > the "hard" climbers I'm not taking offence, but I do wonder how the hell you get off on that sort of comment? It says more about your insecurities than the people you are insulting. |
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rogerb 05:00:46 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
Duane's suggestions seem quite reasonable apart from the grade 20 cutoff. This is my suggestion for the County: 1. Replace dodgy bash-in carrots with glued in carrots. 2a. Move carrots that are nearly as difficult to clip as the grade of the climb (eg. 1st carrot on Walking Wounded). 2b. If no easy clip position close by original position, then replace carrot with ring. 4. Add loweroffs to popular routes with significant erosion. This would make routes at the County as safe or slighty more safe than at the time of the first ascent. The County would still feel like the County (rather than Shipley). |
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Cragx 05:10:22 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
People go on about bold ascents, being new to the sport (??less than 10 years), culture of the climb etc etc., saying they dont think such and such has a hard clip, no ones ever going to agree with each other as we all climb differently and view said protection diferently. As for the reference "hard" climbers, the reason I put it in "" is because I think grades are irrelvant in this dicussion and was trying to point out the futility of using grades as a reason for carrots/non carrots. Certainly wasn't directed at anyone. I'd be the first to admit Im a girls blouse when it comes to climbing bold routes etc, and dont care that other people view me as such, but Im just trying to point out that not all people view a run out, poorly placed bolt, bold leads with the same admiration as others. |
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shawkshaw 05:10:27 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
if my bolts were placed badly then moved them. don't continue with my errors. or some such words. ill dig it out later. he wasn't refering to the county specifically but his routes in general. Why is it considered such a bad thing to improve a bolt placement to make the clip easier. do you enjoy clipping bolts (carrots or rings) that are awkwardly placed? i know i don't. |
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Cragx 05:17:04 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
Re point 2a "Move carrots that are nearly as difficult to clip as the grade of the climb (eg. 1st carrot on Walking Wounded)." ...isn't that just moving a poorly placed bolt? (Which im all for). |
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Josh_C 05:45:02 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
we've already been over that- leave it...no distinctions should be made based on grade if a bolt is in an awkward position then dont moveit just to make it easier to clip, but if its in a dodgy bit of rockthat makes it dangerous then F#$Ken move it! the problem here is that we want to preserve the nature of the climb but we cant ignore our responsibility to place safe bolts. whats the point replacing a bolt if you'll grounder off it anyway? if you're gonna do the job to mnake it safe, then MAKE IT SAFE!otherwise just leave and keep climbing in the original style. as for replacing bash ins with glue in machine bolts, thats fine IMO- i personally like rings better for whatever reasons but if they are safe and sustainable then stick em in |
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Nick_Clow 06:31:22 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
Equally no offence dude, I took something you said in slightly the wrong way.. > no ones ever going to agree with each other as we all climb differently and view said protection diferently Perssshhhonally speaking, I think it's important that some of the slightly bolder routes at Cosmic are preserved as they offer a different sort of challenge/experience from clipping ringbolts (can be boring and uninspiring). Anyway looks like Roger has hit on a winning formula (he can move on to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the Northern Ireland Peace process if he's in the mood : ) |
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chris_coghill 08:07:41 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
The difference between lower-off's and topouts is one of style.... both climbers can lead, as opposed to lead/second/walk off. Physically the difference is usually three carrots on top of the crag, as opposed to two rings just below the lip of the crag. My reason is that I reckon this is a whole lot more fun, and I could do 8 to 10 routes in a day instead of bumbling up 5 or 6. Personally I think walk-offs are for bushwalkers! Jules of course doesn't agree with me. We recently did a bit of rebolting (with permission) and Jules felt lower-offs weren't necessary on the Allied Chemical News. The old bolts are surprisingly hard to get out, and I think they probably are allright as they are for another 10 years or so, except where they are poorly placed. I feel there has to be a serious rethink about how bolts are replaced. A lot of the routes have their first bolt 8 or 9 metres up, then half a dozen in the next 10 metres, and the style can feel very inconsistent (think Clip or die , which has a chip by the way). Sort of an inverse exponential bolting style!! with modern bolting this can surely be rationalized, and some of the higher bolts reduced in number, to keep the feel of the climbs! The rock certainly feels good enough to hold natural gear, and it's not as if people don't take gear to Cosmic! People usually take a rack, expecting to place at least some gear. On another thought, I counted loads of fixed hangers out there, old and new.It is a fallacy to think that cosmic is a "carrot only" crag, there's even a bunch of ring bolts that have been on routes for years....some of the shiniest stainless steel this side of my cuttlery drawer. I loved the green FHs on the pillar... they are as much a part of the character of the crag as carrots are. It's not as if there's dozens of bushwalkers passing them daily. So here's my alternative recipe... 1. leave gear placements as they are 2. badly positioned bolts should be repositioned if they are going to be replaced. 3. I like rings on steep and carrots on slabs. Fixed hangers seem ok as long as they are glued in. I know some of the active rebolters in the mountains are still using them, and they look bomber. Most of the bolts at the county are actually pretty good anyway and don't need replacement for a while anyway. 4. rings should be camouflaged, and Fixed hangers, but I don't know about carrots...mightn't be able to find them! 5. I reckon lower-offs are great, and they don't seem to spoil the climbs. I think this is a bit of an opinion based argument, a bit like trying to argue about what is the best colour. I can see the argument for no lower-offs on a gear climb with a gear belay, but not on a mainly bolted climb with two carrots on top. |
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bundybear 08:27:56 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
1. Agree 2. Agree 3. Whats the use of Fixed hangers. Why not use "Camo" rings. 4. as point 3 5. Lower Offs are great. Then everyone can lead, this is much better than leading only every 2nd route. I think we are nearly there on some sort of agreement. |
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Josh_C 08:45:37 Fri Oct 15 2004 |
we're talking about preserving the style of the crag and you give that as a reason? why not just second? |
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vwills 05:59:14 Sat Oct 16 2004 |
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rogerb 07:57:40 Sun Oct 17 2004 |
However, this person asked the person who told me that he didnt want to be identified. Why? Is he ashamed of his work? If so then his rebolting work is apparently an act of selfishness. Of course this forum is not the only place for discussion about rebolting and retrobolting but it leaves me with the very unpleasant feeling that rebolting is basically out of control. The only way it might be semi-controlled by climbers (in the way that there are consensus "standards" for new routing) is if we make it quite clear in our local climbing culture that rebolting without extensive consultation is not on. |
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bundybear 11:30:56 Sun Oct 17 2004 |
I agree. Lets all agree b4 we start putting any new bolts in, we only get one chance.. Bundy, |
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Duncan101 12:33:49 Sun Oct 17 2004 |
My opinion is that Cosmic County has a distinct feel to it - and part of that is the carrots. Now, I hate carrots, especially shiny new carrots that are just as visible as rings or fixed hangers, but I think Cosmic is one cliff that should be preserved form the ring bolt. If this means that you have to climb easier climbs or train harder to do the climbs you want to do (because they have carrots on them), then so be it. |
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chris_coghill 13:06:27 Sun Oct 17 2004 |
The first gear placement is left in. The first bolt is lowered so that short people can clip it. The bolts are all camouflaged. There is a two U lower off that can not be clipped from above. I did it the week before you started talking about it. It was bloody hard work, definitely not an act of selfishness. Didn't see you discussing your Mt. Boyce rebolts with the "wider climbing community", Roger. You knew who did it, say it to my face next time, you have my phone number. |
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chris_coghill 13:13:29 Sun Oct 17 2004 |
I understand "One of the Best", which you rebolted, Roger, has an extra bolt, and they are all nice and shiny stainless rings. When did the "extensive consultation" take place about that one,Roger..... The idea about doing it anonymously was that I didn't want to blow my own trumpet- I was impressed that some people just get out and quietly do the work. I wanted to do as nice a job as I could, as well as preserve the nature of the climbing as much as possible, and perhaps make it feel a little consistent.... WW had it's first bolt at half height, then 5 more in about 8 metres! I don't know how that could be construed as selfish? My money, my time, my effort, and no credit at all! |
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Cragx 13:16:57 Sun Oct 17 2004 |
,,,what does "local" climbing culture mean and who defines that. Rather than sniping at someone who tried to do something, how about an open discussion without finger pointing. |
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Duane_M 23:13:04 Sun Oct 17 2004 |
I put that line in there because I can't climb any higher than this at the County hence am not qualified to comment on climbs of a higher grade than 20. |
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Nick_Clow 00:11:09 Mon Oct 18 2004 |
> What happened to "climbings a team effort" Why not just take turns at being on the pointy end. No one should think you any less of a man for seconding a route. Lower offs seriously do change the character of trad or mixed routes. V and J Quite. Personally speaking, I do not want Cosmic turned into a gym. |
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rogerb 01:31:09 Mon Oct 18 2004 |
My motivation for rebolting is mainly selfish. I want the new gear and I want to see people doing those routes. The "community service" is not a big thing for me I'm afraid. I do however, think my level of self indulgence needs to be kept under control because it is a community disservice to stuff things up for other peopleor presume to know hat they want. I am basically interested in minimum impact self indulgence. As for One The Best, you are quite right that I should have consulted more. I did discuss it with the first ascentionists and they were/are both happy with the way I rebolted it. I now think I should have consulted more - though as far as I can tell it sounds like OOTB has had only two ascents at most (Martin, Crunch doubts what you said about Frey's acsent). Other climbers might have an opinion about how to rebolt OOTB but it wouldnt be based on experience of the climb. That doesnt make their opinions irrelevant though. I also rebolted 25th Floor without general consultation, and added a loweroff to the first belay of Goldstar. I regret and apologise for the lack of consultation. I did however announce my intention to rebolt and reanchor The Freezer and ask for comments and objections. The fact that there were no objections doesnt mean I wouldnt ask next time. I am planning to rebolt some of the routes at The Eyrie end of Mt Boyce. Before I do it I will try to get a good feel for the opinions of the first ascentionists and the climbing community in general. I will even, if most people want it, rebolt with rings rather than carrots even if that may not be my personal preference for a particular route. Please lets all of us not rush into rebolting routes that have been around for decades. There is no hurry. Its not as much fun as bolting but its worth the effort to try and make sure everybody is as happy as possible with the final outcome. Then those of us who do it will get only compliments for our efforts. Chris I dont have a problem with saying any of this to your face. Bring it over when you bring your hand for a scan. Cheers, Roger |
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shawkshaw 01:36:01 Mon Oct 18 2004 |
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Josh_C 02:51:22 Mon Oct 18 2004 |
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chris_coghill 23:33:05 Mon Oct 18 2004 |
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burroughs 10:02:24 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
Dont forget that ignoring fixed pro and placing your own is easy. You just need the conviction and the balls! Thank god that some of us that live up here care enought to put in the effort. |
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burroughs 10:06:57 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
Ive asked this before but as yet havent received a single answer. Whats the old saying? 'He who doesnt vote cant complain!' |
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Josh_C 11:50:23 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
----- this crazzzy cartoon depicts our bigwaveheroe on his quest to do the right thing by the craggin community. can he hold to his convictions? or will the pressure of trying to keep everyone happy take a hold of him? find out in this episode of ROSS & T-RAY: COMPLETE F#$KHEADS BIN (-->RE<--)BOLTING |
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Josh_C 11:58:10 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
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Josh_C 11:59:50 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
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mikllaw 13:25:20 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
Don't "cannonize" the old style bolting,most of the style of the county comes from a mix of laziness, poverty, and ignorance. Most of the bolting was done by hand, so if you could find a good cam you could skip a bolt. Fixed hangers were too expensive ($6 compared to $0.18 for a bare carrot). And these were early days and forays into sports climbing, so a lot of the boltsd are just in the wrong place. So by all means rebolt with a bit of style and intelligence, within the original "concept" of the route. I believe that most routes at the county are "flawed sports routes", just because we didn't understand the concept then. But I'd Rather Be Sailing should still be a runout horrorshow, but I'd move the first bolt down 1 m , so you can clip it from the ledge if you're short. Ditto for Comfortably Numb etc. I think the 1m rule is a good one (replace the bolts within a meter, this gets around the problem that often we couldn't hang in the right spot, or didn't know where it was). If there's any questions about safety, add one more bolt on routes under 20, and make ones over 20 more runout. |
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Cragx 22:12:52 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
Re your comic Josh, was that your creative essay in your english exam, if so I see big marks ahead
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Nick_Clow 23:17:20 Tue Oct 19 2004 |
Great contribution to the 'debate' Mitch. Illustrates why I will never donate a cent to the Re(TRO) Bolting Fund. |
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Nick_Clow 00:02:08 Wed Oct 20 2004 |
?????? You can place a bomber wire to protect the move off the ground. Then there is a cam in a pocket. Another move or two and you get to the bolt (which is 4/5 metres off the ground). Moving the 1st bolt down will make it 3/4 metres off the ground. I therefore don't understand yr comments above. > Ditto for Comfortably Numb etc. (Has 2 bolts on it) Shares the first bolt with BaBM. Do you mean the 2nd bolt??? (ie. high up on the climb which is a few tricky moves above the slung chicken heads.) Comfortably Numb is an absolute classic climb. It is what it is. Acccept the challenge or climb something else. Mike Moore was on the 1st ascent - nothing should be done to this climb without consulting him. CN provides elegant, challenging climbing and is adequately protected for an experienced and rounded climber. As a point of contrast it sits next to BaBM which has already been re/tro-bolted. BaBM has 11 or 12 bolts in 20 metres and is an insipid, totally uninspiring exercise in following and clipping bolts and doing moves with bolts at your waist. It's about as exciting as top-roping or a trip to the gym. |
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rogerb 00:39:24 Wed Oct 20 2004 |
"if you could find a good cam you could skip a bolt." What?? Bolts were put in only when the gear was zero or crap. There was no sports climbing pre 1985 so why say we were all latent sports climbers just waiting for the style to come along? Bolting was and still is hard work. First ascentionists put bolts in the places they feel adequate and appropriate. The result is part of the character of the route. Did you leave a bolt out at the end of the traverse pitch of Hotel California due to laziness? Or to make it a little bit more exciting? At least one person has gone screaming out over the Grose due to that gap in the bolts. If the intention of new routers in the past was identical to that of new routers in the present then every route since Exhibition Wall would have been just like Exhibition Wall. It didnt happen. Mitch, how about I stick with my convictions and go and rip out all your rebolts and any others I dont happen to agree with? I look forward to your accolades. Can you please give me some gear from the Fund to do it? Or is it just the Sports Fund? |
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Steve_M 00:43:00 Wed Oct 20 2004 |
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chris_coghill 07:14:09 Wed Oct 20 2004 |
I must admit that I haven't removed all the old bolts from WW... would have had to weight the unset ring bolts. Fortunately Mitch has promised me he would get out there soon and do it for me.... the bottom two were bloody hard to get out. I'm pretty keen on a few lower-offs on the top of Dr. Dolittle, Mindblower, LTTE, Junction City, and maybe Building a Better Mousetrap. All those routes suffer from rockfall from above when the climber tops out and belays on the scree-filled ledge. The other obvious sites for lower-offs are the Toyland wall and Aesthetic images wall, which both have dirty ledges and poor anchors. What are the thoughts on this? My idea would be two camo U-bolts for each anchor. I haven't got the time for quite a few weeks, so there's lots of time to flame me about it. Nick, you don't even have to answer! And no, I'm not thinking of an anchor on Interstate 31 or Bairds Effort! |
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mikllaw 14:39:47 Wed Oct 20 2004 |
No, I suggested that Comf Numb be kept exactly as it is. (That's what they call in Australia "rebolting"). If you put in 13 bolts by hand on a pitch, you might understand why you were happy when you could replace a potential bolt with a cam. And no, clipping a cam isn't bold. Go do "Contented Cows" for that (unbold cam clipping). I believe that more than half my routes have badly positioned/uneccesary/too few bolts and am happy to have that corrected. My illustrious compatriots at the County would at least have that sort of average. BTW, It would be neat if people noted how hard various carrots were to remove (ordered by first ascentionist I suppose). My guess is that 85% are twisted off at the neck, or snap about 1" inside the rock where the threading started. It's the rest that twist out easily which we have to worry about. Mikl |
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rogerb 00:35:23 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
My current attitude (and its just mine) to lower offs is that, although they do change the character of a route when added, this change is minor and preferable to the dangers and damage caused by topping out. We climbers make a big enough mess of the bottom of cliffs so its probably a good idea to leave the tops untrodden as much as possible. I like Mikl's idea: "If there's any questions about safety, add one more bolt on routes under 20, and make ones over 20 more runout". It suggests a well-defined point (grade 20) at which newer climbers could recognise they are getting into a danger zone. By the time they are leading grade 20 they should have enough experience to take the appropriate care or not do the route. Subconciously perhaps, its more or less the way I've been bolting new routes at Boyce. |
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chris_coghill 01:41:22 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
The bottom carrot on WW broke off just below the head. I put a medium size shifter on it and pulled pretty hard. After a few solid pulls it broke off. The next one wouldn't even break off with a cold chisel! The carrots below the roof look like mainly just surface rust, but the one just over the lip is very rusted looking. Will hear from mitch when he pulls those out. I think both the bottom carrots had a few years left in them. I have to admit the carrots on "I'd rather be sailing" look very poor. There is a nice two ring lower off at the top of IRBS, with a 30metre rap or lower to the ground. One of the rings has to be 14mm! IRBS could really do with the old carrots being replaced with some nice shiny glue-in carrots. I would worry that camouflaging stainless carrots might make people think they were rusty, and come back and replace them!! On Wank Wank Spurt the carrots were actually coach screws. One twisted out easily and intact. One was an absolute piece of shit and broke off just below the rock. It was pretty much rusted through! |
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Josh_C 01:58:48 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
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Cragx 02:01:46 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
Rod |
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cbits 04:34:11 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
people have been climbing at the county for 25 years and there have been very few accidents, That would suggest to me that most of the bolts are pretty well positioned.(except for the first bolt on W.W.), and no one I know trusts a twenty five year old bolt regardless of what kind of bolt it is! The county was not bolted as a psuedo sport area, as sport climbing didn't exist as such in the early eighties , it was just climbing! The bolts where placed where you couldn't get cams or other protection, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!. People weren't lazy , There was just a different way of thinking . There was a different ethic then, if thats what you want to call it The county should be treated as more of a trad area with a few more bolts rather than a bolted area where you have to carry gear. It is also good to hear that mr Law is still keeping an eye on things in the old country and is still keen to spruik his opinion, and is still never the one to let truth get in the way of a good story, ,just one question Mikl how many bolts did you actually place by hand at the county ??? (that would be pre 1986) according to the guide, errr, that would be none! Wasn't that about the time you went off to Victoria to bag the shit out of kim, muttering something about there would never be any thing harder than 23 in the mountains. O.K thats 2 questions |
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Steve_M 06:56:07 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
How do you think things should be rebolted at the county ? |
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cbits 08:50:52 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
as long as you don't make a mess of the place, You really don't want to make it into another shipley, and if you put in loweroffs just remember that it really does impact a lot more on the Bottom of the cliff. May be a bit of track work to stabilise the bottom could be arranged. Despite what a lot of people think, carrots are generally ok for climbs that are vertical or under , even though they are sometimes a pain in the arse to clip.maybe the odd fixed hanger or ring. Putting extra bolts on easier climbs under 20 I think isn't really justified. The majority of routes at the county are under or around 20, and quite well protected,. People HAVE been climbing them safely for years , What's changed? |
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mikllaw 15:25:19 Thu Oct 21 2004 |
The only one I remember for sure was placing the bolts on Clip or Die in under 80 minutes, I think it was at least 10 in all, probably more. Possibly Porceley Negra, Crunch's Corner, Blue Emu Complex. I bought a drill in about '88, but may have borrowed one for BEC. Hand drilling can be fast (less than 5 minutes) in average rock off a good stance. I still place a few by hand to reduce weight, retreat, or guarentee that i get waayy pumped. |
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Nick_Clow 01:50:49 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
I understand yr comments about IrBS now.. But I'm still confused by your backtrack on CN (first of all you say suggest moving the bolt down on IrBS by a metre and then say 'ditto CN', then we're all for leaving it as it stands ???? Are you having a small joke about hand-drilled bolts on Crunch's Corner? It doesn't have any bolts! Cbit: > People HAVE been climbing them safely for years , What's changed? That, to me also, is the question. Maybe the answer is that climbers' mentalities have changed. People evidently want a comfortised, convenient experience. They can't cope with a bit of dirt on a topout or setting up belay anchors. Cue whining about the odd bolt being difficult to clip. This attitude really surprises me - maybe some people need to take up lawn bowls instead of climbing (although they'd probably whinge about that as well - e.g. the balls might be too heavy and in any case should be padded in case they drop them on their liddle footsies). |
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Cragx 02:33:26 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
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Steve_M 03:03:15 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
Nick I know you love to present the "other" opinion, but are you genuinely opposed to minor reshuffles like IRBS 1st bolt being moved down to a comfortable clip position from the ledge. |
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Josh_C 03:45:56 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
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vwills 04:44:14 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
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chris_coghill 07:56:09 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
Anyway, in answer to your question "whats changed?"..... Much like peoples hair, those old carrots have turned an unfavourable colour and look like falling out as they have aged!! (I'm a victim too) I think most of the people who actually are keen to do some rebolting out there are quite sympathetic to glue-in carrots, especially on the lower grade climbs. I'm certainly not keen on adding bolts, rather a bit of subtraction from a few climbs might be warranted! The lower off issue I understand is a little controversial. I really do think it improves a lot of climbs, from both an environmental and enjoyment perspective, and doesn't make a whole lot of difference to the skill required to do the climb. Most routes at the county have a cluster of carrots over the top for belay, or occasionally a big tree, so it's not as if there's any skill in setting up a top belay! I'm not sure if i understand how they will add to erosion at the bases. Is that just because there will be more people at the crag? If you top out a route, you still have to belay from the base and leave your gear there, and most people still have there lunch and gear sitting at the base of the crag. I am quite happy to be enlightened regarding reasons that this will happen. Nick, you really are too grumpy!! Maybe you should come out and give some of the rebolters a hand someday. Most of us are keen to listen to and help put into place other peoples ideas, especially if it involves more than just talk! |
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Josh_C 08:02:37 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
(keeping the lurkers in the loop: i was gluing a project while ness was standing beneath me looking up and it had partially dried in the end of the nozzle so when i went to squeeze it into the hole the glue burst out the side of the nozzle with a vengance) |
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Josh_C 08:03:51 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
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Cragx 10:23:24 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
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zippertwo 12:18:06 Fri Oct 22 2004 |
has anyone thought for even a moment that the county is a crag with serious ongoing access issues ? It's only by the grace of the 3 main landowners who own the access roads and easements that we able to access these climbs [ and the freezer ] in the first place . Three of these owners are active climbers , & it is guaranteed that they will not sit on their arses & do nothing while the county is turned into another shipley . Ruminate on that before you quibble about adding or subtracting bolts . As for lower offs - they make the crag a lot more user friendly so you can climb faster & do more routes , without the epic of bringing up the 2nd then coiling the rope & finding a way down . Definitely much easier , but it concentrates people in one place rather than spreading them out over the crag . Ease of climbing also means more people head to that crag in the first place . Again , shipley is a shining example . Replace those old carrots by all means , but let the county retain its ambience . Not all walls need to be grid bolted into submission . |
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Nick_Clow 06:27:33 Tue Oct 26 2004 |
> Nick, you really are too grumpy!! Maybe you should come out and give some of the rebolters a hand someday. Wot, and help yous turn Cosmic into a sport crag?!?! Yrs cheerfully The Grinch |
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trentsadventures 07:00:09 Tue Oct 26 2004 |
Forgive me if im wrong but as far as i can tell no one has ever raised the idea of installing new bolts to replace existing gear placements. Trent |
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burroughs 11:27:25 Tue Oct 26 2004 |
Nick, Im sorry to say this - and it is my last post. You are an idiot!! you know where I live - you just dont see the big picture. Put some effort in, do something. What? I dont know , but drag your pathetic time wasting (who do you work for?) verbosity and maybe, just maybe, if you put some effort into the future of Blue Mountains (climbing), we might take what you say into consideration. I know I'm about to offend a hell of a lot of people but.... Put your money where you mouths are! He who does not vote cant complain! Put in some effort and look to the future. Renewal. for the future and for any of us that are stupid enough to have kids. After all they just might want to climb as well. My personal email is rebolting@pnc.com.au. I have quit the Rebolting Fund (NSW). Talk to Doc or Mr.Kyle. I dont have a big enough arm to shove up all of your arses. Thanks for the support! Mitch. BYE |
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Mrkyle 23:11:37 Wed Oct 27 2004 |
Thought I should say that Mitch mentioned me in his last post because we (myself and a few others) are planning on looking after rebolting issues and funds in the future. |
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Cragx 23:21:47 Wed Oct 27 2004 |
Rod |
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Nick_Clow 23:25:50 Wed Oct 27 2004 |
Mr K, in view of your comments/opinions (v. early in the thread) about Cosmic that sounds very encouraging. Whilst I am not prepared to donate money to Mitch so he can retro-bolt (oh sorry - 'renew') climbs, I would be prepared to chip in for anger-management classes for him. |
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Josh_C 23:43:22 Wed Oct 27 2004 |
you buy a new WRX but while heading up the mountains it has an overheating problem that causs substantial engine wear (hey steve how's the baby?) so when the engine get toward the end of its working life, you go and trade it in, but make sure its another one with an overheating problem, because on the way up to the mountains this problem has been cause for many memorable epics which you dont want to change.... |
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Josh_C 23:47:20 Wed Oct 27 2004 |
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Cragx 00:03:07 Thu Oct 28 2004 |
Gotta say, all Mitch was trying to do was organise a proper re-bolting effort, and I for one I thank him for it. You might not have agreed with it, but I certainly don’t think anything he did was bad for climbing, where as, if a bolt fails it definitely will be. Not only was he re-bolting, but he was actively involved with liasing with the council, going to meetings, while most people sat on their arses hoping for things to happen. One of the reasons I tend to develop new areas, rather than put up routes in existing areas is because I just don’t want to get involved in the grubby, snippy local politics’ that is prevalent through out the Australian climbing seen. Be it caused by tall poppy syndrome, rebelling against authority or just plain stubbornness, I’d rather distance myself and enjoy climbing for what it is... a fun sport... and not some pissing contest over wether a bolt should be placed here or 1 metre to the right. Thanks Mitch for your work in the past and anything you do in the future, and to anyone else that bothers to spend there own time and/or money trying to fix past wrongs, make a bolt safer or simply add a new climb for other to enjoys. It’s a thankless task, not ego driven, but very much appreciated by a majority of the climbing community in general. |
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Josh_C 00:06:31 Thu Oct 28 2004 |
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shawkshaw 00:47:19 Thu Oct 28 2004 |
sorry to hear your leaving mitch. |
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jono_g 01:42:32 Thu Oct 28 2004 |
I have been following this thread and thought I would have an input. Cosmic is an awesome crag and I have had some of my best experiences there. I have also been humbled on numerous occasions and been forced to back off on a carrot. To me this is part of cosmics appeal, many routes require a certain commitment. I can't climb harder than 21 so I dont think I can comment on the harder routes. But I dont find clipping carrots on routes such as Clip or Die to be that difficult as its not steep. My feeling is that ringbolts on the climbs that are not overhung will affect the atmosphere at Cosmic. Although my opinions may be different to the majority of the people doing the work. I recognize the value of the rebolting which is being done, keep up the good work, but remember not all climbers prefer to clip ring bolts. When I wished to do some bolting Mitch was happy to pass on his knowledge and also lend me his glue gun. It is a shame that someone who has given up so much of his time to make climbs safer and be an activist for access, has not recived the appreciation he desereves. Good work Mitch Thanks CragX for the opportunity to put my veiws forward Jono |
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chris_coghill 03:40:11 Thu Oct 28 2004 |
Is this a bad omen? Maybe we're all going to hell! Maybe just some disgruntled old trad climbers deciding that there'll be no rings or no climb at all! On the plus side, there's a new wall at cosmic county just dying to be gridbolted! (only joking). |
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Nick_Clow 05:32:17 Thu Oct 28 2004 |
Chris, Quite, how er..ironic is it?!? God is angry with us for our stupid bickering and has taken away our cliff and climbs to teach us a lesson. The lesson is: we need to learn to love each other and be friends. (Grrrrrr...) |
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Mrkyle 22:50:45 Thu Oct 28 2004 |
Thanks for the offer Steve. Will be in touch in due course. |
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WingYing 00:30:13 Fri Oct 29 2004 |
Nick, why are you associating Mitch with reto-bolting. He's not the only one in the Mtns who's done "rebolting". Chris Coghill and a few others have done some too. Now that Mitch quits, does that mean you would put more support in rebolting? If you have put your time and effort into something that you really believe in doing and people around you just sit and watch, or even doing nothing but criticise, I think you would be angry too, Nick. I'm surprised that Mitch did what he was doing for that long. For the 2 years that I've been with him, I've tried to help out whatever I could financially. So to be blunt, I own some of the bolts that were put in for rebolting. And I'm glad people are clipping them, instead of some tatty old carrots/ half worn down rings from toproping. I'm not saying that all carrots are dangerous, but some of them are F#$Ked. I never get involved in discussions about too many bolts at Shipley, trad/ sports, etc ... And I'm not taking sides either, however, when I looked at my credit card statement for the past 2 years, I've put in quite a bit for rebolting. And I get quite offended when people who doesn't contribute anything, but complain and criticise. Yet they all clip the bloody bolts!!! :ohwell: And I'm not the only one who had contributed financially, Chris Coghill, Nathan, to name a few. Yes, Mitch is infamous and doesn't have much PR skills. (sorry Mitch, just a personal opinion) But the guy did do some good work in attending council meetings, keep the climbing community informed about access issues, etc ... Be the information he provided was accurate/ inaccurate at times, at least in the process the climbing community becomes more aware. The work that he emphasised in doing is the vital part, not him. He could get run over by a car tomorrow and there'll be no more Mitch Warren, however the issues of access, etc will still be there. But WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT THEM? How are you contributing to the issues? If it took landslides to destroy the climbs that the climbing community cherished, to make us realise that we need some sort of unity and to do something, then so be it. Destroy all of them, I'd say. The whinging Chinese/ Asian Jess/ Wing-Ying |
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hipdos 01:54:36 Sat Oct 30 2004 |
This is a good point! Are people getting hot under the collar here because they think gear placements are going to be bolted? I hope not. This thread is all about whether rings should replace carrots, and whether some relatively minor adjustments to the bolt placements are warranted. 90 % of this discussion has been thoughtful and worthwhile, let's not get caught up in the 10 % that has not... |
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mikepatt 22:00:41 Tue Jun 21 2005 |
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Duncan101 08:18:39 Wed Jun 22 2005 |
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chris_coghill 00:45:15 Thu Jun 23 2005 |
I forgot the name. |
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Duncan101 01:39:11 Thu Jun 23 2005 |
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Cragx 02:55:13 Thu Jun 23 2005 |
Climb Name Thailand Taxidriver Grade 16 Height 15 FA J. Andersen Description Start as for The Allied Chemical News, Pitch 2. From 1st Bolt on TACN go left and up wall. 3 more BR'S and optional #2Camalot. Belay as for TACN. Walk off Date FA 8/2004 |
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xCraiginator 04:48:06 Sun Nov 21 2010 |
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