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madtaffy
06:58:18 Fri
Feb 10 2006

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Zig Zag

Anyone got any info on the new routes at Zig Zag - ones to the right of the older new climb Geezer Pleezer. It's got 19 scribbled on the start and is quite good. There is another to the right of that. Both are on glue in hangers and glue in hex bolts. The rebolting of Shakes and Flakes is well done. Any more stuff rebolted there?

  
madtaffy
21:31:17 Sat
Feb 11 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Went there again yesterday. Did a new thing that goes off to the right after Black Bart start. Pretty good at about 17. Let's Nail God is now a less scary climb with more bolts. SF and Urako need a refurbishment. Also did that Ethel the ardvark piece of crap at the start - that climb is still in the dark ages and a bit dangerous if you rely on the natural gear in a fall!

  
bundybear
11:26:56 Sun
Feb 12 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Quote: madtaffy at 21:31:17 Sat Feb 11 2006

SF and Urako need a refurbishment.


Crap - they are old skool gold.

  
Goodvibes
21:08:01 Mon
Feb 13 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

WTF, I know Lets Nail God was a bit run out at the top but it is pretty easy climbing compared to the rest of it. I thought it added to the route, keeping you focused all the way to the top instead of just clipping another bolt and doddling up the last 5m or so. Slabs are meant to be run out aren't they?

  
madtaffy
09:04:41 Sat
Feb 18 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Did the new route left of No Pants/327 today. Pretty good on brackets with a hard start off the biggest cairn in the Blueys! Urako and SF are rebolted, cleaned and have lower offs and are now enjoyable routes. Also did the crack Turkish Delight which deserves some stars. Had a good look at Cheap Dive on the way up that- that would be a good rebolting project.

  
madtaffy
08:53:11 Sun
Feb 19 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Let's Nail God was ticked - easy now with the extra bolts and the moves wired. "No Pants" can now be done in 1 pitch to the anchors of a new route above 327. Gotta love that massive bolt above the chimney! I reckon it is a bit harder than 14.Be careful rapping off/or lowering off them anchors if you've got a 50m rope. There is a new route that goes up Urako and then traverses left up the wall squeezed in between the Make it Nylons arete, at about 22.

  
bundybear
10:06:50 Sun
Feb 19 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Hey Tony,

Thanks for the update and all the work bolting down there. Sounds great !!

Bundy

  
madtaffy
02:55:38 Mon
Feb 20 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

They are not my routes Bundy. But I'll claim the good ones if you like. There is a route on "S" wall now as well. Goes straight across to the arete from the ground and up the right hand side of the arete at about 14. Pretty good positions but rock is a bit average. Should clean up. Don't hassle the turtle or you will be cursed.

  
madtaffy
02:58:41 Mon
Feb 20 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Did the 19 variant of Truckstop Lawyers up the crack at the start. OK route but I was a bit worried getting to the second bolt after the ledge . It's not a pretty fall if the rock breaks, and the rock is a bit crusty! The 23 start is thin and hard-too bad it's not on granite.

  
chris_coghill
06:30:36 Mon
Feb 20 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

I think Glen Short has been doing most of the work at Zig Zag.
Goodonya Glen, you legend!

  
Goodvibes
20:10:46 Mon
Feb 20 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Nice work there Glen. Good to see an old crag like Zig Zag getting some more attention. There are heaps of classic lines there that will now maybe get the attention they deserve.

  
cbits
01:01:56 Thu
Feb 23 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

just to maintain my Cranky old bastard status,
the route to squeezed in between urako and make it nylons is basically a bolting of make it nylons with a tiny little variant finish, when are you guys going to do some research before you go whanging bolts in left right and centre, the pircher guide says that Make it nylons traversed to the arete, but shows going straightup the arete on the topo, the src guide clearly says it traverses from the chimney to the arete,for the record the bolts on the arete were placed by mal grey in the early eighties but never climbed.
and while I am it , the route on the "s" wall was done by bruce cameron and will moon around about 1980, strangely without any bolts, the route going straight up there was bolted by steve moon in the mid eighties but I am not sure if he ever climbed it.


  
madtaffy
08:32:19 Thu
Feb 23 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

This is my opinion for what it is worth.
1. I didn't put up the new route next to Urako or any of the other new ones at Zig Zag.
2. You are a brave man if you want to climb that line between Urako and the arete without the new bolts. Let me know when you are up for it and i'll come and watch.
3. The new climb does not go up the arete at any time but stays on the wall.
4. I wonder if Make it Nylons has ever been repeated this decade(or last, or the one before that)? Maybe that needs a few bolts in it! You may as well be soloing from the cam placement in Urako if that's where the traverse went.
5. Maybe if the direct line up the arete was rebolted in today's fashion rather than the old style - maybe that would get a few ascents - rather than "never climbed".
6. I don't think the new route on 'S' wall is any good but there is no history in the SRC or new guide of a route up there so I think someone bolted it thinking it was a new route.
7. SF has been cleaned and rebolted and is now not the dirt shitheap of a climb it was.
8. Urako has also been cleaned and rebolted and is a great little climb now you can feel the holds without scraping an inch of dirt off and decking if you fall. The old bolts are still there for you, don't forget your cam for that placement and don't clip the new "anti decking" bolt if you are a purist.
9. That little wall that gets shade all day and will now get some ascents, rather than fading into filthy obscurity like it has been over the last 10-20+ years.
9.These People are Sandwiches and Lady Grinning Soul have just recently been rebolted and the need for the single cam placements removed by adding a bolt. No one seems to be whingeing about that.
10. YOU CAN STILL DO THE CLIMBS IN THE ORIGINAL STYLE WITH THE ORIGINAL PROTECTION IF YOU DESIRE. I'll even come down and spray some dirt on the holds if you like.
11. I think the rest of the new climbs at Zig Zag are pretty good and have had a few good days there recently. It's quite good to return to a crag and do some new things even though they are on bolts!
12. The council owns the rock - maybe there was a DA put in?

  
cbits
10:32:19 Thu
Feb 23 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

So ,
when are you going down to piddington to retro bolt eternity,

  
madtaffy
03:32:42 Fri
Feb 24 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Here we go again on a well worn topic..
I was not talking about retrobolting cracks. That subject has been covered enough I think.
I'll repeat myself again - I did not put the extra bolts in or bolt the new routes.
Back on topic - when are you going to climb that new route next to Urako without the back up of the bolts and when are you going to free Make it Nylons?


  
bundybear
09:15:26 Fri
Feb 24 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Hey Tony,

I support you 100%. Thanks for all the work at ZZ, those climbs you and Ed fixed up will be great. No one except for me has climbed them in the last decade, atleast ZZ may get a few more ascents - its a great little crag - but no one ever climbed there because the aged state of the bolting. Maybe the FA should communicate a bit more with the general climbing community and give details on what climbs should be rebolted. Maybe they could rebolt some of there own climbs, or give details on what should or should NOT be touched !!

Of course, mixed or TRAD lines should be left that way and only the bolts replaced. Maybe some lower offs - but thats it !

What does the rest of crowd reckon ??

Bundy
[2 edits; Last edit by bundybear at 02:36:20 Sat Feb 25 2006]

  
Glenn_Short
13:29:28 Fri
Feb 24 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Hi

thanks for the kind words about the new routes. They've actually been there quite a while. Always good to hear the positive comments about crimes with a drill.

Got to go with Cbits on this one though. Before I start, I know I'm not innocent in the bolting stakes and have caused my share of destruction, but I'll weigh in anyway.

I know you all didn't bolt his route, but someone did.

People do ( and always have) climbed at ZZ. Lots. It hasn't just been rediscovered. I know one couple who have been climbing there since the sixties. I've been climbing there regularly for 16 years.

Crunch HAS climbed Make it Nylons A LOT, I've done it with him.

It sounds pretty hilarious to hear someone challenge him to climb it, or anything else really. After all, he did put it up. That and a lot of other, much scarier routes. Believe me, it's not hard for him.

It had bomber cams. Those cams now have U bolts next to them, without any consultation with the people who put the routes up. That's not cool. Not anywhere.

I'm all for replacing old dodgy bolts (I've done a bit) but I've always asked the first ascensionist before rebolting or adding bolts. (Except for one minor mix up with Wilbur, which I apologised for and sorted out)

I'm not a hard climber, but I climb a lot and plan to for a long time. As such I understand that other climbers can do stuff I can't. Gotta respect that, even if it means I don't get to climb the route. They're the rules - get good enough or don't climb it. Seems to me those are the rules throughout the climbing world. That's what it's all about.

My point is that you can't blame Crunch for being annoyed when he sees a considerable number of his routes being rebolted/retrobolted without anybody asking him. (It's been happening for a long time) It changes the nature of the route and needs a lot of careful consideration before you do it. He doesn't often speak out and it's worth listening when he does, if you don't believe me count the number of crags and routes he's responsible for in your guidebook.

The guy still climbs like I wish I could and still puts up new routes (he and I did two of those new ones at ZZ). HE'S STILL AROUND!!! ( He lives just above the crag) He also is fully aware of the need to rebolt old routes.

Wouldn't hurt to speak to him if you want to add bolts to one of his routes, rebolt etc. He's never knocked me back, even if he has wanted to preserve the nature of some routes. It's just common courtesy ( and generally accepted climbing ethics - did I use that word?)

Hope people like the routes at ZZ. There are a few more there, have a look. It's a great spot, lets not stuff it up.

And remember to give the absquealers heaps as you go past, they're the real enemy.


Cheers

Glenn.

  
Cragx
21:04:59 Fri
Feb 24 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Tend to agree glen, plenty of rock out there.....if you don't take the time to ask FA his opinion on retro/rebolt, dont take the time to do it.

We are blessed with a pretty small climbing culture in NSW, and its more like a 2 degree of separation rule, so its not that hard to track people down (obviously there will be exceptions to the rule).

I applaud anyone who takes time out to re-fit fading fixed gear, but you gotta be held accountable for any of your actions, so take the time to research the climbs history first before grabbing that drill.

  
bundybear
22:32:57 Sat
Feb 25 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Hey Glenn,

Thanks for the comments (and the new routes). Have you got any more details (names, grade, location) of these routes for the rest of us. The ACA website is a great spot to add the new routes, or there is a new route register on this site.

Cheers

Bundy.

P.S. Unrelated topic: Do you have some details on your route "Chester and Jean", An 80m at Porters seems cool . . . .

[1 edits; Last edit by bundybear at 20:59:06 Sun Feb 26 2006]

  
jungle_jim
23:57:03 Sun
Feb 26 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Just add my two bobs worth. Too many shirt liftin ego poppin hole drillin bolt cockin goin on. Who gives permission to bolt anyways or does it just come down to the individual ego? I saw a man walking in Katoomba one day with a load of bolts in his hand proud as punch with some sort of point to prove to who knows who. He was obviously very pleased with himself with the thort that he gave himself permission to ransack the cliff with more bolts. The sight made me a bit sick inside almost ashamed of being related to the sport. I mean its got a bit out of hand. Who is to blame for browntown? shorely that must be forbidden. Then What about Solomon, surely a bomber crack doesnt need bolts..........................................................................................................

  
Cragx
00:01:10 Mon
Feb 27 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

So your saying all bolts are bad jungle jim or just ones placed next to cracks????

  
Ashy
01:22:32 Mon
Feb 27 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Well I do like controversy so I went to Zig Zag on the weekend to check out what all the hooo haaa was about. So here is my report.
Lets start with Make It Nylons and the climbs around it.
- SF: rebolted, existing bolts replaced with U's. The climb itself is contrived because you can step onto an adjacent wall 50cm to the right, so the grade depends upon if you use the adjacent wall.
- Urako: rebolted, the 2nd bit of gear which used to be a cam placement has now been replaced with a U. Not a bad little climb, has a couple of moves.
- Fashion TV: This is the new controversial climb. Starts up Urako using its first two U's, traverses left 2m then up the wall past two new U's. Actually not a bad climb and a bit goey and pumpy towards the top.
- Make it Nylons: This starts on the RHS of the wall in the corner crack next to SF. Then traverses left at mid height along a break out to the arÍte and then up. I guess in its original state you would clip the 2nd bolt on SF, then use the cam placement of Urako (now a U), stick in another cam further left (you can now use the 3U of Fashion TV instead) continue to wander left and up the arÍte. So I guess the controversy surrounds the replacement of two cams with the U's. But this is were I have a dilemma. Urako was put up in 1982, Make it Nylons in 1988. So which climb takes precedence, when the guys rebolted Urako did they really need to take into account the fact that Make it Nylons used the cam placement. Maybe that's a risk you take if you add a climb that traverses existing climbs. I don't know why Urako can't be fully rebolted just because Make It Nylons happened to wander across it. The 3rd U on Fashion TV may be questionable, perhaps it should have been placed higher so that you wouldn't clip it from Make It Nylons.

Shakes and Flakes: Really good, the new bolts are well spaced so its not over bolted. For those who miss the runout finish you could definitely do a direct finish that heads straight up the wall instead of following the arching corner to the left. This would give you a nice 5m runout and a potential humdinger of a whipper. In fact this would be a great finish as it would keep SaF separate from the other climbs to the left. I might go bolt this (after consultation of course)

New Route Near 327.
Well maybe I am looking for trouble but this may be a bit controversial as well.
- This is a nice little number that climbs the arÍte left of some old thing called 327
BUT
- How does the start of this differ from 327. The SRC guide states for the start of 327 "Build cairn (runner in tree)". The new climb is bolted so have we retro bolted the classic start of 327. Please explain.
- Am I the only one that thinks the fist hold on the new climb looks suspiciously enhanced.
- So I would argue that if we are going to complain about Fashion TV then the same arguments can be made about the new thing near 327.
- Have the ethics police been negligent in not picking up on this? Or do the ethics police have double standards? ummmm...I wonder.

Summary: I enjoyed the climbing and will return to try some more later.

Chester and Jean: Porters Pass:
Sorry Glenn but to answer Bundy's question. I climbed this thing ages ago and I will not be repeating it. The first 10m is the crux and I thought it had one hard move that went at about 22. The remainder of the climb was a horror show on lichenous snapable dinner plates. Luckily for me my brother got to lead that pitch so I could only imagine the joy he experienced when he topped out and rapped his arms around a tree.

Summary: This was not enjoyable

  
Ashy
02:43:04 Mon
Feb 27 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Dear Jungle Jim,

I to saw a man walking in Katoomba one day with a load of wires and hexes hanging around his waste, proud as punch with some sort of point to prove to who knows who. He was obviously very pleased with himself with the thought that he gave himself permission to dictate the ethics of the climbing in the whole of the Blue Mountains. The sight made me a bit sick inside almost ashamed of being related to the sport.

Q) Who is to blame for Browntown?
A) Am I missing something. The guide book clearly lists the 1st ascentionists or are you asking a clever rhetorical question? What is wrong with Browntown? Did you urinate on the cliff there once to mark your territory and you are now upset that someone has violated your sacred territory.

Q) Surely that must be forbidden.
A) What should be forbidden is that your ethics over ride all others and your belief that you have divine right to all rock.

Q) Then What about Solomon, surely a bomber crack doesn't need bolts.................................
A) Why do you guys always fall back on the same worn out, tired, mantra .... when are you going to bolt Eternity, Solomon. Haven't you worked it out yet. These lines are fantastic, NOBODY wants to bolt them, its the other stuff that is just going to waste because its been left to rot.

My Question:
Maybe when someone puts up a climb they should get a 10 year lease for that bit of rock. When the 10 year lease expires, the climb is retained or if its no good the next person gets a go to put something new up that the climbing community may want to climb.

  
chris_coghill
06:39:18 Mon
Feb 27 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

Ashy you old sport nerd..... Solomon was allready bolted, back from the old days when there weren't cams big enough to protect the crack. Am I right or am I right?
Who would be brave enough to chop those old (heritage listed) bolts?
It was done in 73 by Joe Friend (pre-friends era), but I'm not sure if he placed the bolts...maybe it was an old aid line of Ewbanks?

  
Glenn_Short
09:07:57 Mon
Feb 27 2006

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Re: Zig Zag

G'day Chris,
Actually, those bolts were placed by Ewbank on lead whilst standing on wooden wedges driven into the crack, as an aid route. Wouldn't bother clipping them, they're only in about 1/2 an inch. Every now and then someone steps up to complain about them, one resident Pom even made a bolt puller especially to chop them, he was so incensed. It'd be a shame to lose them, though, don't you think?
G.

  

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