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4 people online in the last 15 minutes - 0 members, 0 anon and 4 guests. (Most ever was 74 at 04:51:16 Sun Oct 28 2012) |
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GoUp 07:58:51 Tue Jun 22 2004 Offline 93 posts Lead Climber Mood Now:  Reply |
Since grades are subjective, malleable and the crag is new I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth in an attempt to prevent an issue of over-grading getting into the guidebooks. I just felt that one should speak up to reverse the increasing trend. I remember when things were routinely undergraded - for some reason things seem to get overgraded these days!
I reckon modifications in the range of 1-4 grades for most of the routes at Sooty Crag may be appropriate - here are my suggestions. The 18 flake (Chimera) is probably more like 16 (feels easier than Flake Crack wouldn't you say). As for the retro-bolting - arrrrgh, a corrosion of ethics. The 23 corner above is probably 19 - No way is it harder than Scorpion Corner at Araps and its much easier than Solomon and Hercules. The new routers have probably pulled the roof without the mammoth block - why? Climbing is all about the line of least resistance up a particular feature and that block, which is not a cairn as its a couple of tonnes, is therefore on route! There are also two no hand rest up the corner. The 20 in the centre - maybe 19 or 18. Are Auntie Jack and Judas easier or harder? The 23 up the arete - again, 3 no hand rests so if one is relying on technical movemnts to gain the grade - mmm, it'd be a one move wonder. But is it in the same league as Birdman of Alcatraz, Despatched, Gentlemans Drag - no way. May 21 and people can think "Gosh, that move is a bit goey!" The 19s down the right - You probably wouldn't get too many complaints at 17. The 16 - thank god that was retro-bolted - but 14 maybe is more appropriate. Stuart McElroy |
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bundybear 09:59:19 Tue Jun 22 2004 Unavailable 1322 posts Net addict - someone take me climbing  Reply |
I think I would leave things as is.
Chimera - Slighty Soft 18, maybe 17 but not 16 - I think the top bit is meant to be direct, my climbing partner who on-sights most 22 could not get thu the bulge, so I reckon it is atleast 22 or maybe 23. I reckon Filed Away (20) is 20, the 1st 3 bolts are hard (for me), the rest is cruisy, so still 20. There are plenty of 20s around the same, ie Atomic Punk and Marooned at Mt York and Sidetrack and Birdsville track at Nowra. The 19s are tricky and are 19 all day. Sooty is a good 16, is and around 16ish. But these are only my thoughts, everyone sees things differently. |
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Josh_C 11:39:26 Tue Jun 22 2004 Offline 1492 posts Net addict - someone take me climbing Reply |
grades are always gong to be different for different people....most roofs that i climb i think are soft for the grade, but then i get on a slab 4 grades lower and cant do shit...other people may be exactly the opposite....
theres so many different things that influence a seemingly simple, objective thing like grading, so you cant go saying that any one particular crags grading is downright WRONG (though there are exceptions, see:mt k- anonymousquote 'i dont want peole to think im soft, so ill give this one a 17 even though i think its a 21') one more thing... something mitch said to me once that stuck with me- 'all the guys from sydney are coming up to the blueys and getting angry that we undergrade everything. they forget that the lines went up in the blueys LONG before they went up in sydney. we're the source and the'ye telling us how to do it!!' [loosely quoted]- speaks for itself ay? |
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Cragx 23:36:49 Tue Jun 22 2004 Offline 2051 posts Administrator  Mood Now:  Post Mood:  Reply |
Them's fighting words Josh
 Mt K's grades are spot on....probably......I think.Grades are always just a guide, get on an easier route at the drag and work up from there, that way you dont get caught out. |
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GoUp 02:56:35 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 93 posts Lead Climber Mood Now: Post Mood:  Reply |
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree - I just can't see how those grades are justified. I included comparisons to routes whose grades have stood the test of time - and probably help develop the grading system - to help sway the arguement.
I'd like to think that after having climbed 1000s of routes I may have a some idea of what grades go where. Still, its only a personal opinion and and in the end it won't be my name be registered as the First Ascentinist and wearing the flak. I guess at the end of the day we all like to think we're climbing better than we really are - heaven help us when we go elsewhere and get spanked (or worse) on a route as we've bitten off more than we can chew. And as for the over sprinkling of stars.........! Anyway, all the best Stuart McElroy |
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Goodvibes 04:05:05 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 799 posts roped joker Mood Now: Reply |
Whilst grades are always going to be subjective there is a limit. Sometimes it just takes a few ascents and a little feedback for the grade to settle. I am usually hopeless at trying to grade things and would rather take the soft option of leaving it up to others to decide.
I will not enter the argument into the grades at Sooty as I haven't climbed any of them. I might get down there sometime when my ankle heals up properly though. And yeah GoUp, nothing like going somewhere where the grades are stiff and getting spanked. Does wonders for the ego thats for sure. One of my mates has put up some routes over towards the colluseum that I can definetely say are not feather bagged. Maybe you should try some of them. |
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GoUp 04:55:49 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 93 posts Lead Climber Mood Now: Post Mood: Reply |
Goodvibes,
I love it when things swing personal and one has to step into the ring! I'll defend myself if you please. My opinions were based on 20 years of climbing here and o/s, which has included many routes, many classics, bold routes and soloing, alpine routes and big walls! ie I do suck up and do the business. I don't think anyone I've climbed with would describe what or the way I've climbed as soft or nancy. That may sound like bragging but I'm looking for respect. I'm passionate about climbing and I want to see the grading system remain real and honest. Would be happy to hear about the Colesseum - more routes to stuff into the bag! If you have a topo pls send to stu_mack@yahoo.com |
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shawkshaw 05:05:47 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 1343 posts Administrator  Reply |
interesting topic.
ill start by saying i really enjoy the climbs at sooty. especially wildfire which i need to get back on. i thing chimera maybe a little easy for 18 ill agree. maybe 16 or 17 would be more appropriate. other grades i have no opinion as i had a mega flash pump so my memory is ruined by that. there definitely is a trend for new routes to be over graded lately. im sure im guilty of it as well. i try to er on the side of sandbag if possible!! steve |
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GoUp 05:09:15 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 93 posts Lead Climber Mood Now: Post Mood: Reply |
What the....! Modify that last message - I'm NOT looking for respect from anyone! I get my kicks from doing routes rather than hot-cocking about them. I've climbed with the same crew for about the last 15 years and as we've not met by now I can't imagine we will in the near future - therefore, think of me as you will!
Stuart |
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Goodvibes 05:17:41 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 799 posts roped joker Mood Now: Reply |
Sure your not a Nancy, what are you doing with that handbag then mate
 Like I said before, I don't feel that I have enough experience or have climbed enough routes to attempt to place a grade on something. So much depends on the type of climb, how I am feeling on the day, how many cones we punched etc. Give it time, maybe the grades will come down a bit, if not then you can bet that the place will get busy. Luckily there are still enough sandbaggers around to even things out a bit. Maybe I will see you around in the Blueys sometime. |
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shawkshaw 05:31:47 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
sorry i was agreeing with you stuart. i have met you as well!
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Goodvibes 05:42:37 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 799 posts roped joker Mood Now: Reply |
Fu#$ me, why don't you just chill out a bit there GoUp. Gotta love it when someone flames themself
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burroughs 06:15:17 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 93 posts Lead Climber Reply |
A worthy subjec! tDid someone mention stars?
Grades & stars are important. I have a data base of info - new routes/rebolted routes/missing holds/projects etc, etc. They will be made available to the editors of the next guide book - soonish I hope! If anyone has any info that would be useful for the above purpose - including grade disputes - would you please email me. Also things like bad/dangerous bolts, loose flakes or foreigners with drills. |
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chris_coghill 07:24:36 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 278 posts Onsight Specialist Reply |
Out of consolation for the first ascensionists.... I think it is extremely hard to grade routes that you have rapped, cleaned and bolted.....
After trying to grade a few routes of my own, and finding some people thinking they were a grade or two soft, and others at least two grades too hard, I realized that it all is a bit of a joke. Take, for example the difference between hairy horrace and chase the lady, on the same bit of wall.... you can't tell me they are the same grade! At araps, Kachoong and Taste of Honey are given the same grade, and Orestes is supposed to be a grade harder than Dispatched!! Even bouldering.... at the Balkans Boogie Nights is 8 and Macedomia is 5.... what a joke.... I reckon reverse the grades!! It's all so stupid- I reckon I'm going to grade all my new routes 17 if they are easy, 21 if they feel a bit hard, and 24 if it takes me a bunch of shots. Maybe 25 if they take me a year or two. Mitch will probably still think they're soft! |
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GoUp 08:05:04 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 93 posts Lead Climber Mood Now: Post Mood: Reply |
Yes - chill out - good advice - save the aggression for next time I've got to karate chop up a crack! Must be abad hair day - christ is that dandruff i've got too?! Bugger, its getting on my shirt and my work mates will see - shit, work sucks - must go climbingggggggg
OK - enuff grumbling about Sooty. I think i've spent more time wound up today than it took to climb all the routes! Next topic please...... |
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vwills 08:17:43 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 355 posts Soloer Reply |
Of course grades are subjective. What can be a jug haul for a tall person has me crimping on intermediates at several grades harder, whereas I can usually stick my fingers in places most people can't. (Perhaps I should rephrase that). Similarly crack width preference has a lot to do with body build, some people can high step, some can't etc etc.
Consider a grade as a probability indicator to the likelihood of a successful ascent. Does it really matter? The "climb" remains the same whether there is some arbitrary grade or not. As long as people aren't putting themselves into danger, which is unlikely on a well protected sport climb. Is theCrag.com causing all this grade anxiety or has it always existed? PS if I grade soft let me know. I wouldn't want to get a reputation as a soft touch. |
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Goodvibes 22:00:45 Wed Jun 23 2004 Offline 799 posts roped joker Mood Now: Reply |
Spot on there mate, especially with how the weather has been the last few days. Oh well, if only I could break this chain tethering me to the computer. |
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AaronL 09:19:15 Fri Jun 25 2004 Offline 5 posts Indoor Bumbly Reply |
[
Always existed and always will I am afraid and with climbers at every level regardless of whether its grade 10 or 34, V0 or V16 you are climbing. |
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Nick_Clow 04:04:11 Mon Jun 28 2004 Offline 180 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
> The 16 - thank god that was retro-bolted
Are you seriously telling me that (in addition to the retroed and completely unnecessarily bolted '23') the 16 crack has now been bolted!!!!?!!?!? You've got to be kidding...? Please tell me you're kidding? |
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Nick_Clow 04:12:51 Mon Jun 28 2004 Offline 180 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
Sooty Grades:
The '23' crack felt like 21/22. With the bolts chopped (as they should be) it would be 22 as a trad lead. Filed Away is 19/20. Reachy at one point near the start, so 20 is fair to allow for shorter climbers. Scorched Earth 22 doesn't get a mention in the above thread. This is a fabulous technical slab climb, quite superb and directly comparable with Chrysalis or Let's Nail God. Quite hard to read and 23 to onsight (at least one other person has said 24). |
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chris_coghill 07:30:08 Mon Jun 28 2004 Offline 278 posts Onsight Specialist Reply |
Is it really all that necessary to get uptight about this crack being bolted? There are loads of good trad leads in the mountains, and this crack and crag wasn't exactly popular prior to the guys putting up the routes.
Nick, you might be interested in Jules' trad and mixed crag about 300metres up the valley from Sooty. Just walk along the base (towards Shipley) and you will find a nice crack going up a 50 metre wall. "The Phoenix" grade 20 by Julian anderson, with a rap chain at the top (take a full rack). There are a couple of short trad routes on the wall next to it (not very good), and about 20 metres to the left a good mixed 19 with gear and 3 carrots (stainless) up a nice flake. It's also by Jules, and you'll need a good rack for that too. If you walk another km or so, bashing all the way, you'll get to James Bond... Lee Cossey did a nice arete in 2 or 3 pitches of bold grade 23 or 24 or 25 I think, somewhere between Sooty and the Phoenix. Apparently has runouts between dodgy gear, and fair to middling gear at belays. It's a nice orange arete with a good looking and unclimbed crack on its left . The crack was partly cleaned by Cam Kinsey, and is begging for a "clean" ascent (though you might get a bit dirty doing it!). Hope that wets the trad appetite. |
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julianandersen 08:38:36 Wed Jun 30 2004 Offline 72 posts Lead Climber Reply |
Yeh,
Go do "The Phoenix" before it grows back. The fires a couple of years ago very conveniently cleaned most of the lines in that part of the valley. There are plently more do to. |
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Nick_Clow 00:14:42 Thu Jul 1 2004 Offline 180 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
> Is it really all that necessary to get uptight about this crack being bolted?
Yes. To paraphrase Rod Young, there is trad climbing and there is sport climbing.....The important thing is TO RESPECT EACH OTHERS' PREFERENCES. There is simpy no intellectual or philosophical 'debate' to be had here. Cracks should not be bolted. Never. Period. It is not acceptable to place bolts next to bomb-proof gear placements. 'If you put some bolts next to a crack, that is too much’ (Jean Claude-Droyer.) Chris, you could say exactly the same thing about chipping and bolt-on holds.... I.e. 'there are loads of climbs around the mountains which AREN'T chipped. so why get upset about this one that is.....?' Or there are loads of climbs around that AREN'T retro-bolted, why get upset about this one? To me it's the thin end of the wedge. And what worries me even more is that gyms have spawned a generation of climbers who are reliant on bolts for their 'sport' and don't know any different. There are also plenty of people with only a few years' climbing experience behind them (and bugger all trad experience) who are running round with drills. By letting bolted cracks, chipped holds, retro-bolting and bolt-on holds go on without saying anything about it, or registering our pissed-offedness (if such a word exists!), we are all contributing to a slide in ethical standards. That crack at Medlow could have been a classic, but as it is it's a f@cking joke. Many thanks for the recommendations, Chris. I will be getting down there to do them. There's also Wake of the Flood (19, 23 crack) in the Colosseum. |
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Nick_Clow 00:18:13 Thu Jul 1 2004 Offline 180 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
Julian/Chris
Sounds great. Just to clarify, isThe Phoenix the left-facing corner crack about 100 metres right (facing the cliff) of the main crag???? If so, congratulations on cleaning and doing it. It's an awesome and long (40/50m?) line. Might do it this w/e. |
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shawkshaw 00:27:43 Thu Jul 1 2004 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
>There are also plenty of people with only a few years' >climbing experience behind them (and bugger all trad >experience) who are running round with drills.
i know one such person with 6 months experience!!! |
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