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dazzz1
07:34:15 Wed
Jul 29 2009

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Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

I've been considering doing some re-bolting around the main crag at Jolls Bridge - where "Bad Luck Silverback" and "High Goose stepping action" are. Both these routes and the short "Natie Head" are nice but have old bolts, especially given they are near saltwater. Also, the tree everyone raps off is hollowed out, so I think a rap achor back in the gully above Natie Head would also be useful.

If I went ahead with this no new bolts would be added on existing routes - just replacements. I haven't had anything to do with the development of the crag though, and don't I know the first ascentionists, so if anyone has any comments or objections please let me know - dgtweedie@hotmail.com

Cheers, Dale

  
petey_w
08:38:57 Wed
Jul 29 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

We are also thinking about rebolting some of the climbs with dodgey carrots etc.

I have emailed Mikl who said it was fine to rebolt any of his climbs and is happy to see bolts moved / added if a superior option was available. Paul Riviere who also put up alot of the climbs here is also fine with rebolting of his climbs / adding lower offs if suitable.
I was intending to put in SS Rings/U's and possibly add some lower offs for those climbs suitable. The climbs on my rebolting list are:

1) Corosion castle, but its climbable with trad gear as it is. Still a great climb that deserves more accents, lower offs will make it a great climb to warm up on.
2) Honey I'm Late, Honey I'm Direct & B Jam, I have rap inspected the bolts and while I couldnt snap any off (with a quickdraw and a sling) I wouldn't feel comfy leading this, also there is no much chance of backing up the bolts with gear.

We have spent a bit of time flying off Hang Ten and I can vouch for the bolts on it (although I haven't had a look at the top pitch) the rap station could use a bit of attention from memory. Likewise the bolts on Son of a Gun and Lethal Weapon are bomber. We have also got on Power and Glory which appears to have good bolts.

We went and had a look at One Sick Puppy and Read My Lips one day but decided that the bolts looked a little bit suspect to have a go. I would definitely look at the other climbs first though as these are shortish.

Unfortunately my time is a little bit tight at the moment so these things probably wont happen too soon. I would be more than happy for someone else to do the hard work - I would even provide money for bolts / glue.

Definitely an underrated crag (once you know your way around). Its great to see it getting some attention lately.

Pete

  
dwebster
23:54:01 Sun
Aug 9 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

I reckon that's a cracker of an idea dale. :smile:

  
Cragx
09:36:24 Mon
Sep 21 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Hey dale saw your work at Jolls on the weekend, nice effort...especially liked the big signs..btw the glues set :thumbyellow:

Now this isnt a dig at you so dont take it as such...more a general discussion about Jolls in general....

Jolls is in a very nice spot surprisingly so considering location to highway...but I dont understand the bolting thats gone on there....even taking in account the old school ethos....

I was reading the guide on sydney climbing site and it was this comment that I thought odd.....

"Last thing - the routes here have been geared up adequately so any retro bolts appearing on established lines will be chopped pronto, no questions asked."

The few climbs I got on yesterday were all in the lower grades and all had carrots (some in rather bad positions)..but alot of the harder climbs seem to have rings?? why replace bolts with carrots considering rings are already present at the crag...or is it just a grade thing?

it also seems the harder climbs with suspect gear are protected more often with rings or fixed hangers were the lower graded stuff dosn't ( ie just suck it up mentality)...Im all for stout climbs provided its across the board....seems to me its more the easier stuff below possible FA's grade limits that got run out and things closer and a bit heady got a ring/fixed hanger....am I wrong?

and nothing has lower offs (though Naties head does now..nice work dale) which considering this statement in the guide....

"Please treat this area with care - as you can probably imagine, because of its handy locale to the big smoke it could become quite popular and well worn"

....wouldnt lower offs keep tracks from forming up top which is were most of the public would see anyway? and save the trees up there from abuse?

Like I said before first visit and just starting discussion about the area, but thats the general vibe of the place I got.






  
vwills
10:10:15 Mon
Sep 21 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Good effort for rebolting those climbs (with carrots or not). ? ANd did you put the carrots in above high goosestepping action? Definitely a better belay than wrapping that smallish boulder.
For more ideas:
Absolute honey could do with a rebolt to replace the fixed hanger. A ringbolt there would be nice. It is very rusty and the crux is above it. It could also do with a rap station on the belay ledge (or an anchor and lower offs.) The bolts on High goose stepping action are all rusty as are the 23 and 24 to the left of chocolate coated parents, and the dodgy home made hangers on Channel Bill Cuckoo. Loweroffs or rap bolts are needed below the hollow tree above badluck silverback. I could go on! One day might try and do a bit myself..... But considering the climbs are less than 15 yrs old its all a bit disappointing

  
Cragx
10:38:39 Mon
Sep 21 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Yeah just like to re-iterate dale top work...Im more asking about rebolting ethics for the future rather than your fine work.

  
petey_w
09:35:35 Tue
Sep 22 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

As I said in my previous post, both Mikl and Paul are happy to see their climbs rebolted - and rebolted well. I am sure the others FAists would be equally happy to see their climbs revived and modernised.

The hard arse Caring Understanding Nurturing Type of climber only seems to exist in small pockets in the upper blue mountains these days. Natural selection will soon see them become extinct in NSW...

Rings are preferred, and the minimal bolt ethic need not apply. Paul has indicated that the addition of lower-offs (where suitable) would also be preferable.

  
Cragx
21:34:57 Tue
Sep 22 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Good to hear, I was looking at the slab area around texas which would provide some good moderate climbs with proper fixed pro put in...anyone know who Phill Stallard, and Andrew Powell are as they are their climbs.

Rebolting routes is expensive and TBH not much fun and for me to do it Id like the OK directly from FA before doing anything

  
Trinity333
13:16:22 Tue
Sep 29 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Are they the bash in carrots or glue in SS?

  
dazzz1
01:06:08 Thu
Oct 1 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Glad to hear the new bolts are getting some use! And I'm not stressed at all to have discussion of other options, but for what it's worth, here's my reasons for replacing bash in carrots with glue in carrots:

(a) I like the old school ethic of Jolls. While I like climbing at Berowra I don't want all of sydney to be bolted with that consumer approach: why not have some climbing with the extra "excitement" of getting a bolt plate on as well? This I think is more in keeping with the "traddy" ethic of the place, especially when you are placing gear as well.
(b) glue in carrots (as opposed to bash in) are I think as unlikely to pull out as rings (all were put in with Ramset 801 glue)
(c) Glue in carrots are less visually imposing, and also do less damage to the rock to place and remove.

On the lower-offs, I agree that something else is needed at the top of Bad-Luck Slilverback. However, since the slightly run out top out of this route is a key part of the climb I think top belay bolts or rings back from the edge would be better to preserve the character of the climb, especially now that there are abseil rings. This is something I am thinking about for the next effort, but of course suggestions would be great!

I'd also like to rebolt HGSA action, but would like to speak to the first ascentionists beforehand as I think an extra bolt is needed between the first and second bolt(anyone know them?). But this won't be for a little while so if anyone is keen please go right ahead!

Also just to do some self-promotion myself and Dan Webster put up this new route at Jolls on the weekend:

Fully Loaded Man 21 (Mixed)

Start 2m right of HGSA at small crack. Up past 3 BRs to RB, step slightly left then past 2nd RB to double bolt belay (weasel exit on right side of RB about 19)

(climb named in honour of the fantastic campbell's soup parody of the solo man ads: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLIIKrJ6nnI)

The rings at the top do go a bit against my manifesto above I know - tend to place these when things get steep and clipping / retreating is more of an issue, plus feel I have a bit more freedom when it is my route!

Cheers, Dale


  
Cragx
03:57:51 Thu
Oct 1 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Fine points dale but you do point out my arguement against the "ethics" of Jolls...

"rings at the top do go a bit against my manifesto above I know - tend to place these when things get steep and clipping / retreating is more of an issue."

ie once it gets a bit hard "for you" you put in more consumer orientated protection. Thats seems to me, generally the way things got bolted at Jolls...which leaves a lot of "easier" lines unclimbable by those climbing at the grade, while those that climb harder dont even get on em?

Its also not really the carrots/glue in carrots thats I reckon is the issue...more so the perception that dodgy trad gear on easier routes okay, but if its dodgy on a harder route something fixed goes in.

Either way Im not fused, Im certainly not going to rebolt things if ppl dont want it done...just starting a discussion.

Btw grats on the new route :beerchug:

  
dazzz1
04:17:59 Thu
Oct 1 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Yeah fair point. I certainly agree that there seems to be a lot of easier grade stuff at Jolls that is just dangerous at the grade, and am not suggesting that this stuff should all be left this way.

That said, I think it is important that some climbing with more of an adventure feel is around for people who want to climb it, and I think replacing carrots with rings, and / or adding extra bolts and rings risks undermining this if not done carefully.

Cheers, Dale

  
lofty
06:41:27 Thu
Oct 1 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Hey Dale,

If I can add my 2 cents, I don't think HGSA requires additional bolts. The climb is intended to be mixed and there's ample opportunities to plug in cams, and I remember pretty good stances at the gear placements so don't think it's dangerous as is.


I don't actually know Phil or Andrew, but according to Paul Riv they all climbed it with a cam between the 2 bolts in question.

My opinion only tho.

Good work (and much appreciation to you and Dan) on the bolting so far, and nice work on a new route.

Rod - I think that in the early 90's there weren't many people climbing on the coast, so people bolted purely to suit their own abilities. Low 20's was perhaps easy, so it was carrots and gear. Mid 20's was hard though, so these climbs got fixed gear.
It's a lot different today and the local developing types are definately thinking of moochers like myself, but perhaps not so much 20 years ago.
It also seemed to be a frenzy for FA's at Jolls, so they might have just taken the quickest option.

  
adb
21:11:26 Thu
Oct 1 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

If a route is well bolted like Rod's, why can't it be as safe or as dangerous as someone wants ? If someone wants it dangerous, just don't use the bolts; or free solo if you want very dangerous. If you want to climb safe, use the all bolts; or pinkpoint if you want it safer; or toprope if you want it very safe.

  
Cragx
21:36:02 Thu
Oct 1 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Mine can be a bit "to safe" sometimes :biggrinyellow:...I think the question I want answered is can a dangerous route be retro'd so I becomes climbable by a person who normally climbs that grade?

Nothing wrong with the mixed/carrot ethic, as thats Jolls flavour, just the death routes at the lower grades which are really just wasting good potential lines.

  
vwills
02:20:36 Fri
Oct 2 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Carrots on the ledge under the tree above BLSB would be fine and preserve the need to top out- people could then put slings over if they want to top out and same station used for channel Bill Cuckoo.
HGSA - I didnt use first bolt at all when I repeated it on lead this week. Several cam options more to left where you actually climb. The firsat bolt would be better higher and more to left.
Son of a Gun. Overbolted. Overgraded, but very enjoyable.Climb 25/26 Rod and you will have no complaints :smile:

  
adb
03:49:08 Fri
Oct 2 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Quote: Cragx at 21:36:02 Thu Oct 1 2009

Mine can be a bit "to safe" sometimes :biggrinyellow:...


Dam Cliffs might be considered "too safe" but I once chatted to a fellow there who was free soloing. He said he'd had a fall from 12m but lived and it hadn't deterred him. A big enough ego can make anything as dangerous as the owner of the ego wants.

I'm old enough to have used up my nine lives. I'm all for safety. I'll let the young blokes flaunt their egos.

It reminds me of the saying "There are old pilots and bold pilots; but there are no old bold pilots!"

  
Cragx
03:57:04 Fri
Oct 2 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Yeah that'll never happen Ness.

Why carrots over the lip, why not ring or U's,....that way you can rap off and pull rope without leaving behind stuff?

  
petey_w
07:49:56 Fri
Oct 2 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

"can a dangerous route be retro'd so I becomes climbable by a person who normally climbs that grade?"

I say yes. (Paul is fine with that too)

  
vwills
08:41:42 Fri
Oct 2 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Rings on a ledge over the edge might encourage rope pulling.... Ok if they are in a higher large block (like back from Absolute Honey) but not if they are where you sit as the rope will be bent 90 degrees if threaded through them and hard pull over the edge. Rapping from Natie Head gully anchors is an easy way to get down after retrieving slings if several people want to do the route or top rope it.

  
Cragx
09:36:20 Fri
Oct 2 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Might spend a few days out there this summer sinking a few bits of steel then

  
dwebster
11:38:50 Fri
Oct 2 2009

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Good on ya! Get into it. There's so much rock up there. Sure, the quality is variable, but that's Sydney (bar Bluebell...?)!



  
shnrub
09:44:53 Sun
Jan 24 2010

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Is there an up to date guide for this area? Had a look around during the weekend and none of the online guides I've found seem to reflect the current bolting. I'm not confident placing gear yet but it's an awesome area. It'd be nice to know what can be safely sport climbed.

  
petey_w
20:53:01 Sun
Jan 24 2010

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

No updated guide. I haven't done any rebolting - too busy with a new baby recently etc - and I don't think the intention is to retro any of the mixed / trad climbs so the existing guide is good enough. We have been rap inspecting and/or pre-placing gear on some of the climbs on the first go. If you climb mod/hard there are some good sport climbs - try:
- Hang Ten (26) [I use cams before the first bolt]
- Lethal Weapon (24)
- Son of a Gun (26) [probably 25 IMO]
- The Hawkebury Connection + Extension (25)

  
shnrub
06:58:32 Mon
Jan 25 2010

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Re: Jolls Bridge Rebolting?

Fair enough. Placing gear from above sounds like a good way to start, thanks for the tip. I'm climbing at about a 22 so the climbs listed would be a bit out of my reach I would say. Some to come back to though :thumbyellow:

  

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