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julianandersen
00:57:21 Mon
Sep 13 2004

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Cosmic County

The Allied Chemical News (Pitch 2) is now rebolted.

  
hipdos
04:57:20 Tue
Sep 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Nice work - that is an absolute classic warmup. Only 1000 suspect carrots to go at the County...hey if someone rebolts Walking Wounded please put the bolts somewhere where you can actually clip them!

  
trentsadventures
05:04:07 Tue
Sep 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

whats the general view when it comes to replacing carrots at cosmic with rings or Us. are FA happy for this to occur?

  
shawkshaw
05:22:18 Tue
Sep 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

i thought the FA are generally open to it but the regular users (who ever they may be) appear to be against it. is this correct or am i sprouting rubbish?

  
julianandersen
00:28:50 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Andrew Penney is happy for me to do what ever I like to any of his routes. ie : Rebolt, add anchors etc.

Chris and I climbed there yesterday and noticed a few things are getting replaced.

I still think some routes should stay on carrots, esp ones with gear.
EG :
Allied Chemical News is now a FH on the first ( so you can stick clip if you want too), then 2 BR's. The clips arn't desperate so I don't think it needed rings. You still have to walk down the gully, which due to the low traffic of the area isn't erroded much, therefore it doesn't need lower-offs.



  
julianandersen
03:19:44 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County


How's this for a start

Mid-life Crisis - Rings.
Alhelal - RB on first 2 (to replace crap BR and FH), Or 2 FH's.
Then BR's.
Xerxes - Carrots. Rap station on ledge at top
Toyland - Rings, lower-off.
Hollow Men - Rings, lower-off
I'd Rather be sailing - Carrots. plus another RB to rap off.
Rap station improvement above Razor Blade Alley.
Clip or Die - ??. It's been drilled for rings. Rap station at top.
Building a better Mousetrap - Lower-offs (bolts are OK)
Walking Wounded - ??? Don't want to get drawn into this one.
80 min Hr, Barefoot in the head, Mekong Charlie - Carrots.
The Green Eyed Monster - Rings
Mindblower - Carrots, Lower-off
Rap station above Interstate, Junction City etc - to save the tree.
Barbarossa - Carrots.
Highlites - Rings
Lapsed Catholics - Rings
Fear in the Western World - Rings, plus new Lower-offs to avoid the traverse at the top.

Just to name a few....

  
hipdos
04:00:12 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

OK so anyone else want to get drawn on Walking Wounded? FA is Andrew Penney so the permission is there to rebolt, but does that mean not allowed to shift the bolts? It would be crazy to rebolt it and still make it so you basically have to rap in to put the gear on...

  
Chris_Y
04:15:06 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Walking Wounded... why the hesitation people?? It needs a re-shuffle and it needs rings. With a considered rearrangement it could possibly do with one less bolt in the area below the first roof.

Chris

  
shawkshaw
04:21:18 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

im for rings on this one. those bolt placements are bad but the route is a classic.

  
Cragx
04:35:44 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Doesn't Xerxes have carrots already, do they need replacing?

It been ages since I did that route, but from memory it all carrots no trad, why not just do rings? Or maybe just ring/hanger at start which is the crux anyway, for stock clipping

  
vwills
06:16:07 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I thought the carrots on Fear in the Western World were OK at the moment and the rap station for it doesn't work too badly (except for the final swing if you have to clean your own gear.

I'd love to see a stick-clippable ring at the start of I'd rather be sailing but that would be retro bolting wouldn't it.

  
burroughs
09:29:19 Wed
Sep 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I have an extensive list of first ascentionists views on the rebolting of Cosmic County. Yes, 80% believe it should rebolted and lower-offs added. Of this 80%, most would replace with rings if they had the time and the money.

Re. Walking Wounded. Giles is happy for rings and for the gear placements to be done away with.

Re. Fear itWW. Have you noticed that some brackets can be lifted off the carrots with the draws still attached?

The routes from 'Candle Power' through to 'Hollow Man' will be rebolted with rings - excluding 'Gentleman's Drag' of course. Why? Because they're hard!

Briefly the following have expressed the views that their climbs (if they be theirs?) be rebolted using rings and lower-offs.

J.Smoothy
G.Bradbury
G.Childs
M.Law
G.Weigand
A.Prehn
R.Young
M.Moore
F.Moon
S.Moon

There are many more....I suggest that you contact them before renewing their route. I have contact numbers for most.

Please though, whatever you do remember that we are all affected by the actions of each individual let's get a Plan of Action together before we tackle Cosmic and gain consensus.

  
Mrkyle
01:11:13 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Cosmic County is an icon in the NSW climbing scene. Many people, including me, regard it as the definitive Blue Mountains crag. Accordingly, rebolting efforts there should be absolutely exemplary. Any bolts and glue should be well camouflaged

Personally, my stance is to keep the majority of routes equiped with carrots – particularly routes on slabs to vertical. Perhaps even just to preserve climbing history. Wouldn’t it be nice to have one RING-FREE crag? I think everyone should have a good think about that.

That said, if everyone favours rings, I would suggest rings are appropriate on routes like:
Hollow Men
Shimmering
Incandesence
Green-Eye Monster
and possibly Toyland and Aesthetic Images.

Having said that, I find Toyland and Aesthetic Images very commiting routes, and they will definitely lose 'something' on rings. Lower-offs/rap-stations are definitely appropriate at a number of places for envrio reasons.

As for Walking Wounded, I don’t see any reason why this should be done on rings – it’s a great and very memorable experience on carrots. There is no denying the placement of the carrots is a bit off, and should be moved. Certainly, the cam placement should stay – it’s good, and it adds to the feel of the route.


  
rogerb
01:53:52 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

"Wouldn’t it be nice to have one RING-FREE crag? I think everyone should have a good think about that."

Sounds like a nice idea to me. Perhaps even first ascentionists should consider the ideas of the general climbing community before the rebolting of their own routes. Everyone seems to agree that the first ascentionist doesn't own the route, but would also probably agree that the first ascentionist's opinion might carry more weight than another individual's opinion. I dont see a lot of point in the County being rebolted half carrots and half rings. I dont remember the clips on Toyland, for example, being particularly troublesome - far less so than the climbing. On most old routes a fixed bracket was used if the clip was desperate (RELATIVER to the grade of the climb). These are the obvious ones to replace with rings.

Walking Wounded is a bit of a special case and maybe needs a special consensus agreement before rebolting. The current feel of it is positively English. Why not preserve it that way? Its not as if the mountains is full of such routes. Let it keep its reputation and everyone will feel better when they tick it. Your head will get a whole lot bigger in the pub when you say "I did Walking Wounded today " and you dont immediately get the reply that its not the route it used to be.

If people agree to attempt to preserve the feel and history of the crag then it doesnt make much sense to me to go only haf way. Either way, its refreshing for me to see how many climbers are happy to stick with carrots.

  
chris_coghill
01:53:58 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Aesthetic images had nice glued-in fixed hangers next to all the carrots when we went there on tuesday.

  
hipdos
02:04:52 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Ooh, looks like consensus could be a tricky thing...but isn't it always?

This is a prime example of why I started a post on painting rings. There will definitely be a group of people who don't want Cosmic bristling with shiny ringbolts, but a lot of these people will be happy if the rings are painted, thereby removing the threat to the aesthetics of the crag. I would guess that consensus could be achieved quickest if the rebolting is a combination of rings on the hard / hard to clip stuff and bolts on slabs and easier routes, plus an undertaking to paint all the rings. What is everyone going to do with their rack of bolt plates if it's all rings?

Walking Wounded is an interesting one. For a start it is right in your face when you come down the gully. It is he style of climb that begs for rings, but leaving the first cam placement followed by a line of rings would seem a bit funny. Then you have the masses of chalk that would be more obvious than rings in any case. Hmm...

What is the process of getting consensus? Who does the Plan of Action?

  
chris_coghill
02:09:47 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

All bunkum until somebody actually gets out there and does the work!
Cosmic would have been rebolted years ago if everybody with an opinion backed it up with actions!

  
hipdos
02:15:52 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Doesn't the scope of the work have to be defined before it can be done?

  
rogerb
02:25:48 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

It might be a good thing that not everybody with an opinion backs it up with actions.

  
Chris_Y
03:00:20 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

The re-bolting of the County is always going to stir up the climbing community cauldron. For many different reasons, this is a discussion we need to have... let's have all the cards on the table (for want of a better cliche).
However, I think many people view this place with rose coloured glasses on. To suggest that a route like Walking Wounded be kept as some kind of historical time capsule is crazy. The route as it currently stands is a testament to bad bolting practice. The first bolt needs positioning such that it can be clipped from the stance (without the need for a wire and long draw). Below the first wee roof the third bolt is quite unneccessary (and causes drag unless clipped with a sling). Currently this is a great route in limbo. With well positioned / re-positioned rings and a lower off this could again be one of the best routes of its kind in the Bluies.

The County, from a historical perspective, is not a crag steeped in ethical purity and tradition. It was set up, (in the context of the time), as an early rendition of the modern sport crag! In many ways it is an 80's version of Thompsons Pt. A forcing ground for new tactics, (a different approach), to more traditional areas. The place is full of "sport climbing type" infrastructure, most routes are well protected (in the context of the time when they were put up), apart from some with dodgey starts. In many ways the time is ripe to "improve" the place and where necessary correct some of the mistakes of the past to preserve the nature of one of the best crags in the Mountains.

  
rogerb
03:35:59 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Chris, how does ring bolting Walking Wounded preserve the nature of the crag? It does the opposite. WW is not in limbo. People still do it and enjoy it (just look at the chalk). Just because its not bolted in the modern style doesnt mean its in limbo. You seem to be saying that this route must be made to look and feel like a route at Shipley and any route that isnt like that is a mistake and an example of poor craftsmanship.

The way people bolted in the 80s, the amount of protection they sought, is different from now. That is what some of us are suggesting might be worth preserving.

  
Cragx
04:52:53 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Everyone gonna have a different opinion , but if the FA's are saying rebolt them with rings...whats the problem? The carrots there are indicative of what was around at the time, not some idea of them being the best for the area.

Carrots are a part of history as much as boots with bottle caps on the ends and fixed pitons instead of bolts, but are people screaming to have them back??? All idea that were cutting edge at the time, but are considered less than satisfactory now.

And once again everybody is saying rings for harder, carrots for easier stuff...how is this justified??? You have to be climbing 23+ to enjoy the safety of a ring. If 16 is your limit then its hard for them isn't it? Cosmic is a moderate grade crag which means you get new climber there...if your gonna do a job keep them in mind.

  
Chris_Y
05:44:50 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

WW has always fundamentally been a sport route, (an 80's version with a runout start with bolts placed somewhat at random)... and in my opinion - in limbo. Meaning that a ground up ascent is a rather annoying exercise in getting some of the bolts clipped. Most of the people who do the route now save themselves the angst and place the gear on rap for a more enjoyable thrash.

In response to rogers comment I am not suggesting the the County be turned into a Shipley clone. WW is a prime example, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that with a "considered" re-bolting approach, could possibly do with one less bolt. Also the chalk is not an indication of recent traffic... more that the wall below the high roof never sees the rain. Been up there to see how much chalk is on the upper wall above the roof???

Bolts, be they rings carrots or whatever are merely a protection medium. Using the best available protection medium will preserve the nature of the routes and the "climbing experience". It is up to the FA's and the climbing community to debate and decide the merits or otherwise of changing the nature of these climbs - (by adding, subtracting or manipulating the protection available)...

  
Duane_M
06:35:08 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

What's with the Facist administration of this site? Is this not an open forum were views of the general climbing fraternity can be publicly expressed.

Clearly the Crag X administration are biasing the discussion on new bolts at the county by deleting legitimate forum entries, hence negating an open democratic debate. But then you may not see this entry either since there is a good chance it will be deleted.

  
Duane_M
07:03:22 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Thanks, Crag X for leaving that one in.

Allow me articulate again my previous post.

There seems to be a large number of people with strong opinions on re-bolting County. How many of these people are prepared to put in the time to place bolts? I'm not, and as a result accept that people who take time to rebolt the county should have a greater impact on the way in which it should be done than me.

Ok Crag X I accept its not very profound but I thought deletion was a bit harsh......













  

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