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Steve_M
00:43:00 Wed
Oct 20 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

What happenned to this thread. There was some semi-rational debate and suddenly people went stupid.

  
chris_coghill
07:14:09 Wed
Oct 20 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Pheww! After that controversy has finally been negotiated, I was thinking what the next project out there could be.
I must admit that I haven't removed all the old bolts from WW... would have had to weight the unset ring bolts. Fortunately Mitch has promised me he would get out there soon and do it for me.... the bottom two were bloody hard to get out.
I'm pretty keen on a few lower-offs on the top of Dr. Dolittle, Mindblower, LTTE, Junction City, and maybe Building a Better Mousetrap. All those routes suffer from rockfall from above when the climber tops out and belays on the scree-filled ledge. The other obvious sites for lower-offs are the Toyland wall and Aesthetic images wall, which both have dirty ledges and poor anchors. What are the thoughts on this?
My idea would be two camo U-bolts for each anchor. I haven't got the time for quite a few weeks, so there's lots of time to flame me about it.
Nick, you don't even have to answer! And no, I'm not thinking of an anchor on Interstate 31 or Bairds Effort!

  
mikllaw
14:39:47 Wed
Oct 20 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Nic, yes "I'd rather be sailing" is easy and a good solo. I'm not aware that the first bolt is only 6m up, but having soled up there twice to rescue bunnies who had got to the ledge, but couldn't climb up to clip the bolt, it felt high. Yes, you can get good gear in. Despite all that, I think (given the sort of bods who do it) that moving bolt #1 a meter might be a nice idea.

No, I suggested that Comf Numb be kept exactly as it is. (That's what they call in Australia "rebolting").

If you put in 13 bolts by hand on a pitch, you might understand why you were happy when you could replace a potential bolt with a cam. And no, clipping a cam isn't bold. Go do "Contented Cows" for that (unbold cam clipping).

I believe that more than half my routes have badly positioned/uneccesary/too few bolts and am happy to have that corrected. My illustrious compatriots at the County would at least have that sort of average.

BTW, It would be neat if people noted how hard various carrots were to remove (ordered by first ascentionist I suppose). My guess is that 85% are twisted off at the neck, or snap about 1" inside the rock where the threading started. It's the rest that twist out easily which we have to worry about.

Mikl



  
rogerb
00:35:23 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Yes it did get a bit out of control. Sorry Chris for shooting my mouth off without a lot of thought about your efforts or reflecting enough on my own. Its a bad habit. It would be good if all rebolting was done with as much TLC as you did WW and you have motivated me to go back and attempt to camoflage the new U's on One Of The Best.

My current attitude (and its just mine) to lower offs is that, although they do change the character of a route when added, this change is minor and preferable to the dangers and damage caused by topping out. We climbers make a big enough mess of the bottom of cliffs so its probably a good idea to leave the tops untrodden as much as possible.

I like Mikl's idea: "If there's any questions about safety, add one more bolt on routes under 20, and make ones over 20 more runout". It suggests a well-defined point (grade 20) at which newer climbers could recognise they are getting into a danger zone. By the time they are leading grade 20 they should have enough experience to take the appropriate care or not do the route. Subconciously perhaps, its more or less the way I've been bolting new routes at Boyce.

  
chris_coghill
01:41:22 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

A bit of a record about bolt removal..
The bottom carrot on WW broke off just below the head. I put a medium size shifter on it and pulled pretty hard. After a few solid pulls it broke off.
The next one wouldn't even break off with a cold chisel! The carrots below the roof look like mainly just surface rust, but the one just over the lip is very rusted looking. Will hear from mitch when he pulls those out. I think both the bottom carrots had a few years left in them.
I have to admit the carrots on "I'd rather be sailing" look very poor. There is a nice two ring lower off at the top of IRBS, with a 30metre rap or lower to the ground. One of the rings has to be 14mm! IRBS could really do with the old carrots being replaced with some nice shiny glue-in carrots. I would worry that camouflaging stainless carrots might make people think they were rusty, and come back and replace them!!
On Wank Wank Spurt the carrots were actually coach screws. One twisted out easily and intact. One was an absolute piece of shit and broke off just below the rock. It was pretty much rusted through!

  
Josh_C
01:58:48 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

would one of those carrot killer things do the job? i was thinking of making one to waste some time...

  
Cragx
02:01:46 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Youll need one to get rid of those carrots at Mt K.

Rod

  
cbits
04:34:11 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Whats wrong with you guys ?
people have been climbing at the county for 25 years and there have been very few accidents,
That would suggest to me that most of the bolts are pretty well positioned.(except for the first bolt on W.W.), and no one I know trusts a twenty five year old bolt regardless of what kind of bolt it is!
The county was not bolted as a psuedo sport area, as sport climbing didn't exist as such in the early eighties , it was just climbing!
The bolts where placed where you couldn't get cams or other protection, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!.
People weren't lazy , There was just a different way of thinking .
There was a different ethic then, if thats what you want to call it
The county should be treated as more of a trad area with a few more bolts rather than a bolted area where you have to carry gear.
It is also good to hear that mr Law is still keeping an eye on things in the old country and is still keen to spruik his opinion,
and is still never the one to let truth get in the way of a good story,
,just one question Mikl how many bolts did you actually place by hand at the county ??? (that would be pre 1986) according to the guide, errr, that would be none!
Wasn't that about the time you went off to Victoria to bag the shit out of kim, muttering something about there would never be any thing harder than 23 in the mountains.
O.K thats 2 questions

  
Steve_M
06:56:07 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Crunch,
How do you think things should be rebolted at the county ?

  
cbits
08:50:52 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I don't think it matters what bolts you use,
as long as you don't make a mess of the place,
You really don't want to make it into another shipley,
and if you put in loweroffs just remember that it really does impact a lot more on the Bottom of the cliff.
May be a bit of track work to stabilise the bottom could be arranged.
Despite what a lot of people think, carrots are generally ok for climbs that are vertical or under , even though they are sometimes a pain in the arse to clip.maybe the odd fixed hanger or ring.
Putting extra bolts on easier climbs under 20 I think isn't really justified.
The majority of routes at the county are under or around 20, and quite well protected,. People HAVE been climbing them safely for years , What's changed?



  
mikllaw
15:25:19 Thu
Oct 21 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

>,just one question Mikl how many bolts did you actually place by hand at the county ??? (that would be pre 1986) according to the guide, errr, that would be none!

The only one I remember for sure was placing the bolts on Clip or Die in under 80 minutes, I think it was at least 10 in all, probably more.

Possibly Porceley Negra, Crunch's Corner, Blue Emu Complex. I bought a drill in about '88, but may have borrowed one for BEC.

Hand drilling can be fast (less than 5 minutes) in average rock off a good stance. I still place a few by hand to reduce weight, retreat, or guarentee that i get waayy pumped.

  
Nick_Clow
01:50:49 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Mikl

I understand yr comments about IrBS now..

But I'm still confused by your backtrack on CN (first of all you say suggest moving the bolt down on IrBS by a metre and then say 'ditto CN', then we're all for leaving it as it stands ????

Are you having a small joke about hand-drilled bolts on Crunch's Corner? It doesn't have any bolts!

Cbit:
> People HAVE been climbing them safely for years , What's changed?

That, to me also, is the question. Maybe the answer is that climbers' mentalities have changed. People evidently want a comfortised, convenient experience. They can't cope with a bit of dirt on a topout or setting up belay anchors. Cue whining about the odd bolt being difficult to clip.

This attitude really surprises me - maybe some people need to take up lawn bowls instead of climbing (although they'd probably whinge about that as well - e.g. the balls might be too heavy and in any case should be padded in case they drop them on their liddle footsies).
[2 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 06:31:03 Fri Oct 22 2004]

  
Cragx
02:33:26 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Nah lawns bowls is to hard.

  
Steve_M
03:03:15 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Besides it can be quite dangerous, do you know how heavy those balls are.

Nick I know you love to present the "other" opinion, but are you genuinely opposed to minor reshuffles like IRBS 1st bolt being moved down to a comfortable clip position from the ledge.

  
Josh_C
03:45:56 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

i agree that it shoulodnt be comfortised, my issue is that you seem to be saying that we shouldnt move the position when rebolting whether they're dangerous or not- if its just awkward, F#$K em it makes the clip more ecxiting, but if you're gonna deck if you fall clipping, then thats not cool, why would you bother putting in good bolts in dangerous places? i want to be challenged, but i dont want to die

  
vwills
04:44:14 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Forgive me Josh but you came pretty close when you spilt the KF2 over my icebreaker tshirt

  
chris_coghill
07:56:09 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Cbits... are you actually Crunch?
Anyway, in answer to your question "whats changed?".....
Much like peoples hair, those old carrots have turned an unfavourable colour and look like falling out as they have aged!! (I'm a victim too)
I think most of the people who actually are keen to do some rebolting out there are quite sympathetic to glue-in carrots, especially on the lower grade climbs. I'm certainly not keen on adding bolts, rather a bit of subtraction from a few climbs might be warranted!
The lower off issue I understand is a little controversial. I really do think it improves a lot of climbs, from both an environmental and enjoyment perspective, and doesn't make a whole lot of difference to the skill required to do the climb. Most routes at the county have a cluster of carrots over the top for belay, or occasionally a big tree, so it's not as if there's any skill in setting up a top belay!
I'm not sure if i understand how they will add to erosion at the bases. Is that just because there will be more people at the crag? If you top out a route, you still have to belay from the base and leave your gear there, and most people still have there lunch and gear sitting at the base of the crag.
I am quite happy to be enlightened regarding reasons that this will happen.
Nick, you really are too grumpy!! Maybe you should come out and give some of the rebolters a hand someday. Most of us are keen to listen to and help put into place other peoples ideas, especially if it involves more than just talk!


  
Josh_C
08:02:37 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

haha i did sense that, i was quite scared of you for a while after that...but if its any consolation i got in a lot of trouble from mum for coming home with glue all over my clothes as well
(keeping the lurkers in the loop: i was gluing a project while ness was standing beneath me looking up and it had partially dried in the end of the nozzle so when i went to squeeze it into the hole the glue burst out the side of the nozzle with a vengance)

  
Josh_C
08:03:51 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

sorry ness!

  
Cragx
10:23:24 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I wouldnt worry to much Josh, you probably imporved ness's ugly shirt anyway...couldnt make it any worse.

  
zippertwo
12:18:06 Fri
Oct 22 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

hey guys
has anyone thought for even a moment that the county is a crag with serious ongoing access issues ? It's only by the grace of the 3 main landowners who own the access roads and easements that we able to access these climbs [ and the freezer ] in the first place . Three of these owners are active climbers , & it is guaranteed that they will not sit on their arses & do nothing while the county is turned into another shipley .
Ruminate on that before you quibble about adding or subtracting bolts .
As for lower offs - they make the crag a lot more user friendly so you can climb faster & do more routes , without the epic of bringing up the 2nd then coiling the rope & finding a way down . Definitely much easier , but it concentrates people in one place rather than spreading them out over the crag . Ease of climbing also means more people head to that crag in the first place .
Again , shipley is a shining example .
Replace those old carrots by all means , but let the county retain its ambience . Not all walls need to be grid bolted into submission .

  
Nick_Clow
06:27:33 Tue
Oct 26 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Chris
> Nick, you really are too grumpy!! Maybe you should come out and give some of the rebolters a hand someday.

Wot, and help yous turn Cosmic into a sport crag?!?! :smile:

Yrs cheerfully
The Grinch
[1 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 06:28:42 Tue Oct 26 2004]

  
trentsadventures
07:00:09 Tue
Oct 26 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

ive been viewing this thread from a far and im confused. people keep saying that they dont want the county to become another grid bolted shipley but i cant find any reference from anyone (arguing for rebolting at Cosmic) regarding retro-bolting. its bolt for bolt replacement (ie out with the old and in with the new) not addition of bolts. The gear placements will be maintained wont they? yes. so how will this change the character of the climbs. they will still be mixed routes. just maybe more sensibly bolted with the best technology available. in the case of walking wounded there was even a reduction in the amount of fixed gear (and the UBs are now camo)

Forgive me if im wrong but as far as i can tell no one has ever raised the idea of installing new bolts to replace existing gear placements.
Trent

  
burroughs
11:27:25 Tue
Oct 26 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Unfortunatley Trent, that is is EXACTLY what we intend to do. Make it safe for the next 30yrs, while not making the mistakes of the past. Changing the NATURE of the climbs is something we dont intend to do. Renewal! You do it to houses, cars, girlfriends/boyfriends etc.

Nick, Im sorry to say this - and it is my last post. You are an idiot!! you know where I live - you just dont see the big picture. Put some effort in, do something. What? I dont know , but drag your pathetic time wasting (who do you work for?) verbosity and maybe, just maybe, if you put some effort into the future of Blue Mountains (climbing), we might take what you say into consideration. I know I'm about to offend a hell of a lot of people but....

Put your money where you mouths are! He who does not vote cant complain! Put in some effort and look to the future.

Renewal. for the future and for any of us that are stupid enough to have kids. After all they just might want to climb as well.

My personal email is rebolting@pnc.com.au. I have quit the Rebolting Fund (NSW). Talk to Doc or Mr.Kyle. I dont have a big enough arm to shove up all of your arses. Thanks for the support!

Mitch. BYE

  
Mrkyle
23:11:37 Wed
Oct 27 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

All quiet now?

Thought I should say that Mitch mentioned me in his last post because we (myself and a few others) are planning on looking after rebolting issues and funds in the future.

  

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