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shawkshaw
07:06:17 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

i certainly didn't delete your post.

  
Mrkyle
07:07:40 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

The character of a route is determined not only by its rock quality, moves and setting, but also the way in which it is protected.
The carrots at the County contribute very much to the character of the routes. And that character is highly valued and appreciated by a large number of climbers.
Rings may ruin that.

There is no reason to install rings in place of most carrots at Cosmic. So, why the push? Let's preserve something unique to our culture.

Judging by the discussion here, I think it would be wise to lay off rebolting routes at the county in the short term.

On a side note:
Fixed hangers on Aesthetic Images... Dear oh dear. I hate fixed hangers - I strongly urge all climbers to avoid using them. Rings or Carrots, but not the dreaded in-between.
Perhaps we should just call it 'Images' from now on.

  
Steve_M
07:17:16 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I have not climbed extensively at county but have not found it a place with few bolts. The thing to agree with lots of other posts is the iratic nature of the bolts. Case in question clip or die will have 5m no bolts then 3 bolts in two metres. I am cool with no bolts for 5m but see no "atmospheric" or "historical" reason bolting mistakes should not be remedied. I think some carrots left around the place is fine but common sense should lead to a few reshuffles.

  
hipdos
09:03:40 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> Judging by the discussion here, I think it would be wise to lay off rebolting routes at the county in the short term.

I thought the whole point was that the old carrots are inherently unsafe and need to be replaced? It is going to happen eventually, so the sooner the better (and safer) I reckon.

> If 16 is your limit then its hard for them isn't it?

The point is, when a climb is at that grade it is almost certain that you are clipping from a relatively comfortable position, so the bolt plate is not a hassle, even if you don't climb real hard. Higher grade climbs may warrant rings because they can be sustained and desperate at the clip. There is justification for considering grade when choosing protection.

> accept that people who take time to rebolt the county should have a greater impact on the way in which it should be done

Don't agree with this at all, especially in this case with so many strong opinions. I am sure that the rebolters are keen to listen to non bolter's opinions on this one.

Anyone who comes into this discussion and expects everyone to agree with them is crazy, there are too many different opinions. Any aggro will turn this into a useless flame war in about 2 seconds flat. So how to find a consensus? What about a poll? Some sort of opinion seeking exercise at the climbing gyms? Any ideas?

  
Josh_C
13:35:07 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

whatever happens, whatever we do/dont do, someone will inevitably be pissed of about it...the way i see it, we need to look at 2 things;
-safety
the safety of the existing carrots is the reason the issue came up in the first place, whether by the quality, position or spacings of the bolt.

-climbing ethics
as mitch already said, the FA's have given permission for rebolting, so that side of things is taken care of. what we now need to ask for each case is whether the rebolting will benefit the rest of us (eg. whether its best to replace carrots with glue in machines to maintain the original style of the route etc. or whether it is in everyones best interests to move around bolts/change the type to make them easier to clip etc.

  
burroughs
21:59:53 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Sorry guys. Didnt mean to delete something important. Just trying to keep each thread on the subject.

  
Duane_M
22:42:41 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

No worries! Automatically accused Crag X of Facism but I think a not very clear post may have been the cause of the deletion!

  
Cragx
23:39:05 Thu
Sep 16 2004

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Post Mood: Adventurous

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Re: Cosmic County

It were not me :smile:, but just keep in mind this part of the forum is for rebolting issues only, if your gonna waffle or stray of topic, flame or burn someone just do it in one of the other sections.

  
Duane_M
02:00:33 Fri
Sep 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Perhaps Xerxes could do with one less bolt at the start. It has two quite close together.
Question: What is the usual practice for removing old bolts? Hacksaw? or do people try to pull them out?

  
trentsadventures
02:38:38 Fri
Sep 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

definately not a hack saw.
a pair of stilsens works ok especially if the head is overdriven and swolen.
by far the best way is a carrot killer. kind of like a fly wheel puller for a car. basically a square plate with a slot from one edge to the centre (this slides on like a bolt plate). then there is a hole in each corner that is drilled and tapped to take a M10 bolt. once the killer is slotted over the carrot head. tighten the bolts in the corners one half turn per round. with luck the carrot draws straight out of the hole. occassionally it comes out so clean and easy that i can broaden the old hole and use it for one of the new hole for the UBs.
carrot killers arent hard to make, and it does the best job.

  
adski
09:03:57 Fri
Sep 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Looking at the first few posts in this thread, it seemed 'new route fever' had spawned some sort of 'rebolting fever'? Good to see some level-headed views represented. MrKyle, you have some good points but your views are under-represented in this, a *rebolting* forum!

Character is an important part of climbing, hey? I love the character of Cosmic, those blank sheets of rock are a completely different style than most steepage on the Blackheath plateau. And I do like how you have to hunt for the carrots on your way up a route.

I guess i've got a 'if it aint broke, don't fix it' attitude towards rebolting carrots, especially at crags like boyce, narrowneck and cosmic which aren't even in the modern climber's guidebooks!


  
shawkshaw
09:08:17 Fri
Sep 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

boyce and cosmic are in those guide books

  
hipdos
09:17:02 Fri
Sep 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> i've got a 'if it aint broke, don't fix it' attitude towards rebolting carrots

They are broke, as they are chronically prone to corrosion and tend to pull out when pulled out. My understanding is that the 'rebolting fever' is basically driven by these safety concerns...the question here is what sort of rebolting is appropriate, not whether or not it should take place.

  
phm
18:49:34 Tue
Sep 28 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Mitch - how are ya, mate? Good to have the cyber battle out of the sys.

just wondering about your statement that Geoff Weigand doesn't mind having his routes rebolted. Have you actually been able to contact him about this?

Also, I have had correspondence with Andrew Penney and he said, that he doesn't mind having his climbs rebolted 'as long as the character of the climb doesn't change'. To me, this seemed to be the crux with regards to the County. Most other old-timers that I have talked to about this issue have reacted similarly (including most dudes on your list).

Are you going to respect this request? And where are you going to draw the line? Take Walking Wounded for a good example. If you respect Andrew Penney then certainly, you couldn't move the damn bolt down, could ya?

When I considered rebolting some County routes some years ago now I decided that the time wasn't right and I left the County alone. I was worried that the controversy that would surface could cause problems for rebolting in general. Some 'People With An Opinion' were awfully protective about certain places including the County (at the time I was still a bit flabbergasted by the flak that we copped after giving Shipley a little make-over). Hopefully that has changed now.

  
Josh_C
22:57:36 Tue
Sep 28 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

>gave shipley a make over

with the kinda traffic shipley gets, that kind of response (to something that will ultimately preserve the climbing) is very worrying (to me at least)

  
phm
13:58:58 Wed
Sep 29 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

not exactly sure what you are trying to say. but we gotta be careful here not to digress from the topic which is 'Cosmic County'.

  
Nick_Clow
04:12:00 Fri
Oct 8 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Have been following this thread.

re. phm's post above (selected bits below)

> just wondering about your statement that Geoff Weigand doesn't mind having his routes rebolted. Have you actually been able to contact him about this?

> Also, I have had correspondence with Andrew Penney and he said, that he doesn't mind having his climbs rebolted 'as long as the character of the climb doesn't change'. To me, this seemed to be the crux with regards to the County. Most other old-timers that I have talked to about this issue have reacted similarly (including most dudes on your list).

> Are you going to respect this request? And where are you going to draw the line? Take Walking Wounded for a good example. If you respect Andrew Penney then certainly, you couldn't move the damn bolt down, could ya?

Any answers to these Qs?

  
burroughs
08:58:25 Wed
Oct 13 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Nick.

What is changing the nature of the climb?

If we can answer this question adequately we will then know where to draw the line?

Do we replace dangerous anchors with new ones?
Do we move anchors that are obviously badly positioned?
Do we place 'LOWER-OFFS' beneath the cliff top to reduce erotion?
Can we use modern technology to make the routes safer for longer?
Do we need climbing accidents?
What do we do when anchors become inadequate? Abandon the climb?
How much right does a person who put up a climb 20yrs ago, has never bothered to put any effort into it in the 20yrs, to tell us what materials to use to renew it ? Many climbs that have been rebolted hadnt been climed for many years - they are now apparent classics.
Who pays for all of this and who does all the work - who cares?

Re: Geoff Weigand. I received an email from him through Greg Childs about 18mths ago. He was happy for us to renew his routes. That is; use modern gear and change positions of bolts if they were a). dangerous and b). in a 'silly' position to clip. (They used a different perspective in their day - mainly dictated by the equipment they had and the time they had to do it in. They never believed that climbing would become such a big time activity and that their routes would brcome trade. They bolted them, sent them and left! 10, 20 30 years ago.)

Do we just stop climbing these routes when they become too dangerous? Or do we take them with us into the future, maybe for our grandkids to enjoy one day?

I know what I want you all to do with my routes when I can no longer maintain them.

  
Nick_Clow
04:01:55 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Mitch

Your points about replacing anchors are fair and understood by everyone.

> What is changing the nature of the climb?

Throughout the 50, 60s, 70s, 80s (and continuing to this day) Australian climbing has a history and tradition. Carrot bolts are part of that tradition, as is topping out and using natural gear placements where they exist.

Sport climbing - involving fully-equipped climbs with lower-offs - is a much more recent phenomenon. Essentially an import from France,

What greatly concerns me is that sport climbing is taking over, the history/traditions of Australian climbing are being run roughshod over and that 'traditional' (Australian) climbs are being arbitrarily turned into sport climbs.

As you can see from a number of replies on this thread, there are a number of people who simply do not think it is acceptable to turn Cosmic into just another sport crag.

The climbing at Cosmic involves clipping carrots, using natural gear, topping out, some run-outs and has a number of slightly bold leads which are appealing to the many people around who respect and desire challenges which provide more variety than the circus performance of sport climbing (hard moves above an ever-present safety net).

Whilst I am sure everyone greatly appreciates the effort, time and commitment you put into re-bolting routes, it is a fact of life that many people are going to get very, very upset if climbs are retro-bolted.

Cheers N
(PS Say Hi to Rod for me. I banged my elbow up and had 2 ops and 8 days in hospital in September. Catch up with him soon.)
[2 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 04:15:18 Thu Oct 14 2004]

  
burroughs
08:56:43 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

How do we approach our future then? We know that an increasing number of fixed protecting placed in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80 & 90s (and unfortunately some this century) are deteriorating. We know that many tree anchors are not what they were when the routes went up. We know that many gear placements are not as secure as they were when the routes went up. We know that the Land Managers are much more concerned with what goes on on their land - particularly with safety and vandalism. We as a community have a greater awareness of our environment and a greater responsibility to it than they had in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s (and unfortunately some this century).

We have the technology to look to the future.

Rebolting is not retro-bolting. It is renewal, and a chance to get in early and prove that we are taking our environment into consideration and that we do care about our access in the future.

Sorry. Probably should be in another thread. I'll delete it and whack it somewhere else later.

  
Josh_C
14:12:24 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

i think people are getting confused with retro and rebolting (again)
if the boltsare dangerous, asmany of them apparently are, replce them with somethingsafe and sustainable. i have never been to the county, but it still managesto conjure respect mental images of scary runouts on gear, andi dont want that to change to the comfortised feeling of a throughly sport climb. if abolt is placeditshould be placed well, and ifneed be, replace. but where natural placememnts exist there shouldnt be bolts.
what ivesaid is (should be) obvious but it seems like theres a lot of talk around something where i think it is pretty clear....

  
shawkshaw
22:20:59 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

i dont find the county run out at all. there are heaps of bolts there to josh, don't get the wrong mental picture!

  
Nick_Clow
23:04:25 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> i dont find the county run out at all.

Hmm Steve, there are a few things which involve higher than average bolt spacing! Have you done I'd Rather be Sailing, Tendon Tensioner, Comfortably Numb? : )

(Alhelal also probably has 'above average' distances between the bolts. Up to the 2nd bolt of AI?)
[1 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 23:23:41 Thu Oct 14 2004]

  
shawkshaw
23:14:42 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

ive done id rather be sailing not the other two. it was a little spaced but there is fiddly gear if you look hard enough. i havn't done every route so i could well be wrong.

i repsect peoples opinions on the traditional aspects of climbing at the county. its an awesome place. one thing to consider when pushing the traditional point though is where does it stop?

if you want to hold onto tradition do not use SLCD's on routes done years ago as they were invented in "recent" times.

if you are repeating a trad route done in the 50's or 60's should you use a hemp rope and protect the climb with thread hex nuts? where do you draw the line?

steve


  
Nick_Clow
23:21:37 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> i think people are getting confused with retro and rebolting (again)

Exactly, Josh.

> if the boltsare dangerous, asmany of them apparently are, replce them with somethingsafe and sustainable. i have never been to the county, but it still managesto conjure respect mental images of scary runouts on gear, andi dont want that to change to the comfortised feeling of a throughly sport climb. if abolt is placeditshould be placed well, and ifneed be, replace. but where natural placememnts exist there shouldnt be bolts.

As I say. I am sure everyone appreciates the need to replace bolts (and appreciates the efforts of the dedicated few out there who give up their time and effort to do so.)

But REBOLTING is replacing bolt for bolt.

Replacing carrots with rings, adding lower-offs (where none existed), moving/adding/adjusting the position of bolts is RETROBOLTING. You have said in this thread, Mitch that that's what you intend to do at Cosmic.

I hate to mention this as it has nothing to do with the County, but the prime example of a climb that has been changed fundamentally by retro-bolting is Language of Desire. It used to involve some commitment in bouldering up to the 3 cam placement and because the first carrot wasn't all that visible above that. Now that a ring sits next to the cam placement everyone stick clips it from the ground and it's just another sport climb. (LoD was, in any case, totally devalued by the grid lines of bolts that have appeared practically on top of it.)

Several people I know were fairly outraged by LoD (including.highly interestingly, one of the persons on your list of people re. Cosmic at the start of this thread.)
[3 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 00:23:41 Fri Oct 15 2004]

  

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