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Josh_C
23:48:25 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

i agree with you on most of thatnick, i think though thatcarrots should be replaced with rings. if we're gonna goto all the toruble of replacing them, then at least make them solid this time round. the carrots had nothing todo with the ethics of the day,just the technology. i dont see that as retrobolting unless more bolts are added or bolts are moved significantly- however retrobolting is occasionally neccessary
also i dont want to getstarted with another argument on loweroffs, but when the FA's weredone it was likely that the topouts, as bundy said, only took into account THEIR ascent- they get up there and seea treeand rapoff...finewe'vealldone that but what about the hundreds of people repeating the lines? that puts undue stress on the topout area.

  
Nick_Clow
23:52:05 Thu
Oct 14 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> one thing to consider when pushing the traditional point though is where does it stop?

Well it sure as hell stops if the climbs are turned into sport climbs.

> if you want to hold onto tradition do not use SLCD's on routes done years ago as they were invented in "recent" times.

> if you are repeating a trad route done in the 50's or 60's should you use a hemp rope and protect the climb with thread hex nuts? where do you draw the line?

Steve,
I'm sorry but I don't see what point you are trying to make here with regard to fixed protection.

  
shawkshaw
00:05:35 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

the point i was trying to make was that for some reason climbers feel the need to hold onto tradition when it comes to bolts but when new trad gear is developed it is embraced without question.

doesn't the use of cams on a crack that was originally protected with wired hex nuts change the nature of that climb?

i find it very weird...

[1 edits; Last edit by shawkshaw at 00:05:59 Fri Oct 15 2004]

  
Nick_Clow
00:11:41 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> i think though thatcarrots should be replaced with rings.

I don't.

> then at least make them solid this time round

They weren't solid before ??? How many bolts have failed at Cosmic?

> that puts undue stress on the topout area.

People have been climbing at Cosmic for 25+ years. Just which eroded areas are we talking about?? Ooh the stress on topouts/walkdowns. Y..y..yessss.
[1 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 00:36:20 Fri Oct 15 2004]

  
Cragx
00:12:04 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I agree with Josh on this one (mark this date in your calender), if your going to replace it do it properly with rings....carrots have had there day, much like fixed pitons.

  
Nick_Clow
00:20:09 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Well Steve

I think the distinction is this:

unlike cams, wires etc which are temporary forms of pro (which use the natural features of the rock and are removed by the second) a bolt is a permanent installation in the cliff.

Any bolt is (or should be) a compromise between the permanent defacement of the rock and the need to stop human bodies hitting the ground.

For me it goes without saying that the number of bolts placed should be minimised.

  
bundybear
00:22:24 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Quote: Nick_Clow at 00:11:41 Fri Oct 15 2004

> They weren't solid before ??? How many bolts have failed at Cosmic?


Why are we having this discussion if the bolts dont need replacing. Carrots were only used at CC, cause Stainless 10mm rings/U were not available at the time.

  
shawkshaw
00:45:17 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

>I think the distinction is this:

>unlike cams, wires etc which are temporary forms of >pro (which use the natural features of the rock and are >removed by the second) a bolt is a permanent >installation in the cliff.

>Any bolt is (or should be) a compromise between the >permanent defacement of the rock and the need to >stop human bodies hitting the ground.

>For me it goes without saying that the number of bolts >placed should be minimised.

so whats the difference with placeing an old carrot with a camoflaged ring bolt?? they are much better and STRONGER (when you take into account the brackets you place on them) botl placements than carrots. a well camoflaged ring is hardly more intrusive than a carrot. if its just about stopping people hit the ground as you say.

  
Nick_Clow
01:03:18 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> so whats the difference with placeing an old carrot with a camoflaged ring bolt??

Oh, so they are going to be camoflaged ringbolts?? That's not been mentioned on this thread so far..

Look, the point is this (as highlighted by myself and others earlier in this thread): Australian climbing has a long history (which includes carrot bolts), tradition and character which is presently being killed by sport climbing.

I don't want to play follow the rings at Cosmic.

I don't want it to become Thompson's Point or Shipley.

  
shawkshaw
01:19:25 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

neither do i. but clinging to a tradition is not my reason.

is there a difference between playing follow the carrots or follow the rings? i dont think that it has been proposed to remove trad placements, just to replace, possibily reposition, and indeed remove bolts in some cases . what is the point of rePLACEing three badly position old carrots with three new badly position carrots. why not fiddle them a little and have two well positioned bolts (of any variety). in doing so we reduce the numner of bolts.

>>For me it goes without saying that the number of bolts placed >>should be minimised.


  
Nick_Clow
01:30:09 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> is there a difference between playing follow the carrots or follow the rings?

Yes.

> what is the point of rePLACEing three badly position old carrots with three new badly position carrots.

Because that's the climb.

Steve, arguing for 2 well-positioned bolts instead of three badly positioned bolts is a very good argument. However (as with the example of LoD) we all know that re-equipping Cosmic will inevitably involve someone making judgements about the position/necessity of fixed gear that will (detrimentally) change the nature of the climbs.
[1 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 01:30:43 Fri Oct 15 2004]

  
rogerb
01:33:25 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

"Carrots were only used at CC, cause Stainless 10mm rings/U were not available at the time"

That just isnt true. Carrots with fixed hangers were available and rarely used. Both are available now and I am placing carrots on a lot of new routes. So are others. Carrots are less conspicuous, easier to place, and the strength difference between them and rings or U's is totally academic. Nobody, NOBODY, has ever complained to me that I should have used riings (apart from somebody who hasnt done the routes). I have had far more people come up to me and say "thanks" or "great route", or whatever, for the carrot routes than for the ring bolted sports routes I've made.

There is a big aesthetic difference between climbing a route equiped with carrots and one with rings. Some people, especially those who've been climbing <10 or so years, just dont get it. But just because somebody doesnt get it doesnt mean he can justify totally changing the character of the routes at The County (or anywhere else) that were bolted way before he (or she) started climbing.

The character of routes (trad especially) evolves with time due to trad gear improvements etc. and rock wear. Retrobolting introduces a wholesale instantaneous major change to the character of a climb. The two processes are not related.

The County now gets about one tenth of the traffic it did ten years ago. It's far more likely that most of the top outs will become overgrown in the next ten years than that they will develop an erosion problem. On the other hand, if we are going to turn the best routes there into sports climbs then no doubt the traffic WILL go up and the lower offs will be necessary. Self-fullfilling isnt it? (Double entendre intended).

  
shawkshaw
01:38:18 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

fair points.


  
Cragx
02:15:56 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Okay its to hard.... let them all rust away and be done with it. That way all the "purists" can be happy. and all those evil ring clipping nancy boy sport climbers can go elsewhere.

I cant see how replacing a carrot with a ring will change the character of the climb, but then you cant see how I cant see it dosn't.

This rock climber who has been climbing (badly I might add) for 10 years will just search out the crags with rings and leave the carrots to all you hard men that like your antiques ad history. Ive clipped my share of carrots over the years and certainly wouldnt be worried if they all dis-appeared....just my opinion of course.

And for the record, rings and U's are not harder to place than carrots, but just safer and as reliable over time, and a cammo ring bolt is pretty hard to see anyway....so as I see it, this is really just a discussion/dis-agreement over style of the climb. Dont cloud the issue to reinforce your arguements, with side arguements and irrelevant points... otherwise no one will agree (Not that everyone will anyway).

  
Duane_M
03:06:41 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

My vote for any climb under grade 20 at the county is the following........
1) Rebolt (not retrobolt) routes that need new bolts and replace the old bolt with a new bolts not rings. (How much harder is it to place a bolt plate? seriously.)
2) Where top-outs are causing undue environmental erosion. Lower offs should be placed. (I can only think of one or two routes where this applies)
Note: I haven't climbed a route at the county where I thought the original bolt placements were badly placed (because of the grade I climb at).

  
Cragx
04:00:37 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Why not do them all carrots, then rather than the "hard" climbers getting the rings. If your limit is 18 it will be just as hard to clip a carrot, as the pesron clipping a carrot on a 22 if its there limit.

Seems to me this solution is a bit eliteist towards people that climb higher grades? and also infers rings are the better solution but only worthy of a select few.

  
Duane_M
04:13:47 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I don't wish to enter into an argument about my own opinion. I was simply putting forward what I believe to be an approriate solution to Cosmic County, for whatever it is worth.

  
Nick_Clow
04:16:11 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Rod

> leave the carrots to all you hard men that like your antiques and history.

> the "hard" climbers

I'm not taking offence, but I do wonder how the hell you get off on that sort of comment? It says more about your insecurities than the people you are insulting.


  
rogerb
05:00:46 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Since when were climbs graded on the difficulty of clipping the gear? On a very few climbs the crux WOULD be clipping the gear if it werent common paractise to work around that situation. Rappers excepted, everybody clips the first bolt of Walking Wounded with one or two wires (doesnt work for rings by the way!). Even in the pre-ring mania days difficult clips were often installed as a carrot with a fixed hanger.

Duane's suggestions seem quite reasonable apart from the grade 20 cutoff. This is my suggestion for the County:

1. Replace dodgy bash-in carrots with glued in carrots.

2a. Move carrots that are nearly as difficult to clip as the grade of the climb (eg. 1st carrot on Walking Wounded).

2b. If no easy clip position close by original position, then replace carrot with ring.

4. Add loweroffs to popular routes with significant erosion.

This would make routes at the County as safe or slighty more safe than at the time of the first ascent. The County would still feel like the County (rather than Shipley).

  
Cragx
05:10:22 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Nah Im not taking offence Im just trying to point out other peoples views, and trying to cut through the crap and view the problem simply, otherwise we would continue to justify and not justify why the carrots should be replaced.

People go on about bold ascents, being new to the sport (??less than 10 years), culture of the climb etc etc., saying they dont think such and such has a hard clip, no ones ever going to agree with each other as we all climb differently and view said protection diferently.

As for the reference "hard" climbers, the reason I put it in "" is because I think grades are irrelvant in this dicussion and was trying to point out the futility of using grades as a reason for carrots/non carrots. Certainly wasn't directed at anyone.

I'd be the first to admit Im a girls blouse when it comes to climbing bold routes etc, and dont care that other people view me as such, but Im just trying to point out that not all people view a run out, poorly placed bolt, bold leads with the same admiration as others.








  
shawkshaw
05:10:27 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

nice list i agree that badly placed bolts should be moved, even if only slightly (as you would have to anyway as its rare to place a new bolt directly in the old hole). refer to mike laws letter in rock a year or so ago that went along the lines of.

if my bolts were placed badly then moved them. don't continue with my errors.

or some such words. ill dig it out later.
he wasn't refering to the county specifically but his routes in general. Why is it considered such a bad thing to improve a bolt placement to make the clip easier. do you enjoy clipping bolts (carrots or rings) that are awkwardly placed? i know i don't.
[1 edits; Last edit by shawkshaw at 05:21:09 Fri Oct 15 2004]

  
Cragx
05:17:04 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I think your on the right track there roger, good middle ground .

Re point 2a "Move carrots that are nearly as difficult to clip as the grade of the climb (eg. 1st carrot on Walking Wounded)."

...isn't that just moving a poorly placed bolt? (Which im all for).


  
Josh_C
05:45:02 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

"My vote for any climb under grade 20 at the county is the following"
we've already been over that- leave it...no distinctions should be made based on grade

if a bolt is in an awkward position then dont moveit just to make it easier to clip, but if its in a dodgy bit of rockthat makes it dangerous then F#$Ken move it!
the problem here is that we want to preserve the nature of the climb but we cant ignore our responsibility to place safe bolts. whats the point replacing a bolt if you'll grounder off it anyway? if you're gonna do the job to mnake it safe, then MAKE IT SAFE!otherwise just leave and keep climbing in the original style. as for replacing bash ins with glue in machine bolts, thats fine IMO- i personally like rings better for whatever reasons but if they are safe and sustainable then stick em in


  
Nick_Clow
06:31:22 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Rod
Equally no offence dude, I took something you said in slightly the wrong way..

> no ones ever going to agree with each other as we all climb differently and view said protection diferently

Perssshhhonally speaking, I think it's important that some of the slightly bolder routes at Cosmic are preserved as they offer a different sort of challenge/experience from clipping ringbolts (can be boring and uninspiring).

Anyway looks like Roger has hit on a winning formula (he can move on to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the Northern Ireland Peace process if he's in the mood : )
[1 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 06:33:03 Fri Oct 15 2004]

  
chris_coghill
08:07:41 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Did a few routes at the county on the weekend and I must admit I would love to see lower-offs on all of them.
The difference between lower-off's and topouts is one of style.... both climbers can lead, as opposed to lead/second/walk off.
Physically the difference is usually three carrots on top of the crag, as opposed to two rings just below the lip of the crag.
My reason is that I reckon this is a whole lot more fun, and I could do 8 to 10 routes in a day instead of bumbling up 5 or 6. Personally I think walk-offs are for bushwalkers! Jules of course doesn't agree with me. We recently did a bit of rebolting (with permission) and Jules felt lower-offs weren't necessary on the Allied Chemical News.
The old bolts are surprisingly hard to get out, and I think they probably are allright as they are for another 10 years or so, except where they are poorly placed.
I feel there has to be a serious rethink about how bolts are replaced. A lot of the routes have their first bolt 8 or 9 metres up, then half a dozen in the next 10 metres, and the style can feel very inconsistent (think Clip or die , which has a chip by the way). Sort of an inverse exponential bolting style!! with modern bolting this can surely be rationalized, and some of the higher bolts reduced in number, to keep the feel of the climbs!
The rock certainly feels good enough to hold natural gear, and it's not as if people don't take gear to Cosmic! People usually take a rack, expecting to place at least some gear.
On another thought, I counted loads of fixed hangers out there, old and new.It is a fallacy to think that cosmic is a "carrot only" crag, there's even a bunch of ring bolts that have been on routes for years....some of the shiniest stainless steel this side of my cuttlery drawer.
I loved the green FHs on the pillar... they are as much a part of the character of the crag as carrots are. It's not as if there's dozens of bushwalkers passing them daily.

So here's my alternative recipe...
1. leave gear placements as they are
2. badly positioned bolts should be repositioned if they are going to be replaced.
3. I like rings on steep and carrots on slabs. Fixed hangers seem ok as long as they are glued in. I know some of the active rebolters in the mountains are still using them, and they look bomber. Most of the bolts at the county are actually pretty good anyway and don't need replacement for a while anyway.
4. rings should be camouflaged, and Fixed hangers, but I don't know about carrots...mightn't be able to find them!
5. I reckon lower-offs are great, and they don't seem to spoil the climbs. I think this is a bit of an opinion based argument, a bit like trying to argue about what is the best colour. I can see the argument for no lower-offs on a gear climb with a gear belay, but not on a mainly bolted climb with two carrots on top.

  

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