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bundybear
08:27:56 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Quote: chris_coghill at 08:07:41 Fri Oct 15 2004

So here's my alternative recipe...
1. leave gear placements as they are
2. badly positioned bolts should be repositioned if they are going to be replaced.
3. I like rings on steep and carrots on slabs. Fixed hangers seem ok as long as they are glued in. I know some of the active rebolters in the mountains are still using them, and they look bomber. Most of the bolts at the county are actually pretty good anyway and don't need replacement for a while anyway.
4. rings should be camouflaged, and Fixed hangers, but I don't know about carrots...mightn't be able to find them!
5. I reckon lower-offs are great, and they don't seem to spoil the climbs. I think this is a bit of an opinion based argument, a bit like trying to argue about what is the best colour. I can see the argument for no lower-offs on a gear climb with a gear belay, but not on a mainly bolted climb with two carrots on top.


1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Whats the use of Fixed hangers. Why not use "Camo" rings.
4. as point 3
5. Lower Offs are great. Then everyone can lead, this is much better than leading only every 2nd route.

I think we are nearly there on some sort of agreement.

  
Josh_C
08:45:37 Fri
Oct 15 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

"5. Lower Offs are great. Then everyone can lead, this is much better than leading only every 2nd route."
we're talking about preserving the style of the crag and you give that as a reason? why not just second?

  
vwills
05:59:14 Sat
Oct 16 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

What happened to "climbings a team effort" Why not just take turns at being on the pointy end. No one should think you any less of a man (women don't tend to get so caught up about such things) for seconding a route. Lower offs seriously do change the character of trad or mixed routes. If there are lower offs a lot of people would leave the gear in situ and only flash the route with preplaced gear anyhow so why bother?

  
rogerb
07:57:40 Sun
Oct 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I've just been told that some "good samaritan" has taken it upon himself to rebolt Walking Wounded with rings and a loweroff. It could have been worse - apparently he lowered the first bolt and skipped the one just below the roof. You still need the cams before the first bolt by the sound of it.

However, this person asked the person who told me that he didnt want to be identified. Why? Is he ashamed of his work? If so then his rebolting work is apparently an act of selfishness. Of course this forum is not the only place for discussion about rebolting and retrobolting but it leaves me with the very unpleasant feeling that rebolting is basically out of control.

The only way it might be semi-controlled by climbers (in the way that there are consensus "standards" for new routing) is if we make it quite clear in our local climbing culture that rebolting without extensive consultation is not on.

  
bundybear
11:30:56 Sun
Oct 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Yes Roger,

I agree. Lets all agree b4 we start putting any new bolts in, we only get one chance..

Bundy,

  
Duncan101
12:33:49 Sun
Oct 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

A very interesting read...
My opinion is that Cosmic County has a distinct feel to it - and part of that is the carrots. Now, I hate carrots, especially shiny new carrots that are just as visible as rings or fixed hangers, but I think Cosmic is one cliff that should be preserved form the ring bolt. If this means that you have to climb easier climbs or train harder to do the climbs you want to do (because they have carrots on them), then so be it.

  
chris_coghill
13:06:27 Sun
Oct 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

There are two bolts skipped on the rebolt. They are both unnecessary.
The first gear placement is left in.
The first bolt is lowered so that short people can clip it.
The bolts are all camouflaged.
There is a two U lower off that can not be clipped from above.
I did it the week before you started talking about it.
It was bloody hard work, definitely not an act of selfishness.
Didn't see you discussing your Mt. Boyce rebolts with the "wider climbing community", Roger. You knew who did it, say it to my face next time, you have my phone number.

  
chris_coghill
13:13:29 Sun
Oct 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Out of interest, on the rebolt I left gear placements in and actually reduced the number of bolts in the climb, as well as carefully painting all the bolts.

I understand "One of the Best", which you rebolted, Roger, has an extra bolt, and they are all nice and shiny stainless rings. When did the "extensive consultation" take place about that one,Roger.....

The idea about doing it anonymously was that I didn't want to blow my own trumpet- I was impressed that some people just get out and quietly do the work. I wanted to do as nice a job as I could, as well as preserve the nature of the climbing as much as possible, and perhaps make it feel a little consistent.... WW had it's first bolt at half height, then 5 more in about 8 metres!
I don't know how that could be construed as selfish? My money, my time, my effort, and no credit at all!
[1 edits; Last edit by chris_coghill at 13:31:33 Sun Oct 17 2004]

  
Cragx
13:16:57 Sun
Oct 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

I see no problem with it Chris, but then again thats just me...seems there are less bolts than before and camouflaged...whats wrong with that?

,,,what does "local" climbing culture mean and who defines that. Rather than sniping at someone who tried to do something, how about an open discussion without finger pointing.
[1 edits; Last edit by Cragx at 00:14:53 Mon Oct 18 2004]

  
Duane_M
23:13:04 Sun
Oct 17 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Just a quick qualification on my statement RE: grade 20 or less comment.
I put that line in there because I can't climb any higher than this at the County hence am not qualified to comment on climbs of a higher grade than 20.

  
Nick_Clow
00:11:09 Mon
Oct 18 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> we're talking about preserving the style of the crag and you give that as a reason? why not just second?

> What happened to "climbings a team effort" Why not just take turns at being on the pointy end. No one should think you any less of a man for seconding a route. Lower offs seriously do change the character of trad or mixed routes.

V and J

Quite.

Personally speaking, I do not want Cosmic turned into a gym.
[1 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 00:50:36 Mon Oct 18 2004]

  
rogerb
01:31:09 Mon
Oct 18 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Chris I didnt know you rebolted WW. Andrew told me somebody had done it and had asked him (A) not to identify him (the rebolter). That doesnt sound like modesty to me. I asked Andrew several times who it was and he wouldnt tell me. As I said before, it sounds like you did a good job, but in the light of recent discussion maybe did it a bit too soon. You had plenty of opportunities to say in this forum that you'd done it. Why did you let the discussion continue? You said " I wanted to do as nice a job as I could, as well as preserve the nature of the climbing as much as possible". Then why replace carrots with rings and add a loweroff?? There is no way that rates as "as much as possible". If you rebolt a route in the style you prefer, and then ask not be identified as the rebolter, it sounds like the original motivation is selfish to me.

My motivation for rebolting is mainly selfish. I want the new gear and I want to see people doing those routes. The "community service" is not a big thing for me I'm afraid. I do however, think my level of self indulgence needs to be kept under control because it is a community disservice to stuff things up for other peopleor presume to know hat they want. I am basically interested in minimum impact self indulgence.

As for One The Best, you are quite right that I should have consulted more. I did discuss it with the first ascentionists and they were/are both happy with the way I rebolted it. I now think I should have consulted more - though as far as I can tell it sounds like OOTB has had only two ascents at most (Martin, Crunch doubts what you said about Frey's acsent). Other climbers might have an opinion about how to rebolt OOTB but it wouldnt be based on experience of the climb. That doesnt make their opinions irrelevant though. I also rebolted 25th Floor without general consultation, and added a loweroff to the first belay of Goldstar. I regret and apologise for the lack of consultation.

I did however announce my intention to rebolt and reanchor The Freezer and ask for comments and objections. The fact that there were no objections doesnt mean I wouldnt ask next time.

I am planning to rebolt some of the routes at The Eyrie end of Mt Boyce. Before I do it I will try to get a good feel for the opinions of the first ascentionists and the climbing community in general. I will even, if most people want it, rebolt with rings rather than carrots even if that may not be my personal preference for a particular route.

Please lets all of us not rush into rebolting routes that have been around for decades. There is no hurry. Its not as much fun as bolting but its worth the effort to try and make sure everybody is as happy as possible with the final outcome. Then those of us who do it will get only compliments for our efforts.

Chris I dont have a problem with saying any of this to your face. Bring it over when you bring your hand for a scan.

Cheers, Roger

  
shawkshaw
01:36:01 Mon
Oct 18 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

i think chris may have wanted people to see the rebolting of WW for themselves rather than discuss it here so they could see for themselves what had occured.

  
Josh_C
02:51:22 Mon
Oct 18 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

yeh by posting here he would have goten the flak before people even seen the job

  
chris_coghill
23:33:05 Mon
Oct 18 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Thanks steve and josh, exactly the reason.

  
burroughs
10:02:24 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

F#$K them all anyway Doc. They all full of hot air! Bottom - feeders! Stick with your convictions and be proud of making the effort and of raiding your bank account. GOOD ON YOU!!!

Dont forget that ignoring fixed pro and placing your own is easy. You just need the conviction and the balls!

Thank god that some of us that live up here care enought to put in the effort.


  
burroughs
10:06:57 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Also, please dont forget the 30 rings donated by Mountain Equipment (Chatswood). Since you dont like the way we renew routes, here's your chance to tell us where to use them. Labour & materials free!

Ive asked this before but as yet havent received a single answer. Whats the old saying? 'He who doesnt vote cant complain!'

  
Josh_C
11:50:23 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

ahoy thar, i made you all a pretty little comic strip. to view the adventure of TRay and RCJ, click below, then click 'next page' go through the strip

-----
this crazzzy cartoon depicts our bigwaveheroe on his quest to do the right thing by the craggin community. can he hold to his convictions? or will the pressure of trying to keep everyone happy take a hold of him? find out in this episode of ROSS & T-RAY: COMPLETE F#$KHEADS BIN (-->RE<--)BOLTING

  
Josh_C
11:58:10 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

and mitch you're the one who knows what <bold>needs</bold> rebolting!! by the power invested in me, i give you permission to rebolt climbs with the intention of making them safe, but still exciting, wherever you do wish, and i promise that from this day forth, i shall enjoy following the rings (even if i have to put in wiggly metal shit between them to save my arse) just as much as i have previously enjoyed following the insitu pieces of dangerous shit from another age where one might not care if someone dies at their local crag due to bitching on internet forums about the replacement for so long that the work doesnt get done....whew im outta breath

  
Josh_C
11:59:50 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

and just so ya'll know, im not trying to bag anyone here, not meaning to be insulting, but i AM making a point, hopefully people will start listeneing (not to me, to their own common f......g sense)

  
mikllaw
13:25:20 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Just got hooked up here, good to think of the county being rebolted.

Don't "cannonize" the old style bolting,most of the style of the county comes from a mix of laziness, poverty, and ignorance.

Most of the bolting was done by hand, so if you could find a good cam you could skip a bolt. Fixed hangers were too expensive ($6 compared to $0.18 for a bare carrot). And these were early days and forays into sports climbing, so a lot of the boltsd are just in the wrong place.

So by all means rebolt with a bit of style and intelligence, within the original "concept" of the route. I believe that most routes at the county are "flawed sports routes", just because we didn't understand the concept then. But I'd Rather Be Sailing should still be a runout horrorshow, but I'd move the first bolt down 1 m , so you can clip it from the ledge if you're short. Ditto for Comfortably Numb etc.

I think the 1m rule is a good one (replace the bolts within a meter, this gets around the problem that often we couldn't hang in the right spot, or didn't know where it was). If there's any questions about safety, add one more bolt on routes under 20, and make ones over 20 more runout.

  
Cragx
22:12:52 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Ah the voice of reason from far far away.

Re your comic Josh, was that your creative essay in your english exam, if so I see big marks ahead :smile:

  
Nick_Clow
23:17:20 Tue
Oct 19 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> F#$K them all anyway Doc. They all full of hot air! Bottom - feeders! Stick with your convictions and be proud of making the effort and of raiding your bank account. GOOD ON YOU!!!

Great contribution to the 'debate' Mitch.

Illustrates why I will never donate a cent to the Re(TRO) Bolting Fund.

  
Nick_Clow
00:02:08 Wed
Oct 20 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

> But I'd Rather Be Sailing should still be a runout horrorshow, but I'd move the first bolt down 1 m , so you can clip it from the ledge if you're short.

??????

You can place a bomber wire to protect the move off the ground. Then there is a cam in a pocket. Another move or two and you get to the bolt (which is 4/5 metres off the ground).

Moving the 1st bolt down will make it 3/4 metres off the ground. I therefore don't understand yr comments above.

> Ditto for Comfortably Numb etc.

(Has 2 bolts on it) Shares the first bolt with BaBM. Do you mean the 2nd bolt??? (ie. high up on the climb which is a few tricky moves above the slung chicken heads.)

Comfortably Numb is an absolute classic climb. It is what it is. Acccept the challenge or climb something else. Mike Moore was on the 1st ascent - nothing should be done to this climb without consulting him.

CN provides elegant, challenging climbing and is adequately protected for an experienced and rounded climber. As a point of contrast it sits next to BaBM which has already been re/tro-bolted. BaBM has 11 or 12 bolts in 20 metres and is an insipid, totally uninspiring exercise in following and clipping bolts and doing moves with bolts at your waist. It's about as exciting as top-roping or a trip to the gym.
[2 edits; Last edit by Nick_Clow at 00:18:48 Wed Oct 20 2004]

  
rogerb
00:39:24 Wed
Oct 20 2004

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Re: Cosmic County

Mikl its not that the old style of bolting is being cannonised. What some of us are interested in retaining is the character of climbs that have been around for a very long time, minus the possibility of bolts snapping off or pulling out (which was not the intention of the first ascentionists).
"if you could find a good cam you could skip a bolt." What?? Bolts were put in only when the gear was zero or crap. There was no sports climbing pre 1985 so why say we were all latent sports climbers just waiting for the style to come along?

Bolting was and still is hard work. First ascentionists put bolts in the places they feel adequate and appropriate. The result is part of the character of the route. Did you leave a bolt out at the end of the traverse pitch of Hotel California due to laziness? Or to make it a little bit more exciting? At least one person has gone screaming out over the Grose due to that gap in the bolts.

If the intention of new routers in the past was identical to that of new routers in the present then every route since Exhibition Wall would have been just like Exhibition Wall. It didnt happen.

Mitch, how about I stick with my convictions and go and rip out all your rebolts and any others I dont happen to agree with? I look forward to your accolades. Can you please give me some gear from the Fund to do it? Or is it just the Sports Fund?

  

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