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3 people online in the last 15 minutes - 0 members, 0 anon and 3 guests. (Most ever was 74 at 04:51:16 Sun Oct 28 2012) |
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DODbasher 20:23:20 Wed Sep 28 2005 Offline 32 posts Outdoor Climber Mood Now:  Reply |
What is the best way to go about removing carrots?
And replacing them with a U or ring bolt? |
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mikepatt 22:30:39 Wed Sep 28 2005 Offline 90 posts Lead Climber Reply |
Is this a bit of a wind up?
personally I'd contact the first ascentionist and consult the climbing community before replacing any carrots with rings or U bolts, as opposed to stainless steel hangerless glu-ins. |
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shawkshaw 22:54:34 Wed Sep 28 2005 Offline 1343 posts Administrator  Reply |
without getting into the nitty gritty of what bolt you are replacing with wat. carrots can be suprisingly hard to remove. using stilsons or the like will generally result in the carrot head coming off near or at the surface. the best way to remove a carrot is to make a 'carrot killer'. these consist of a thick peice of steel cut with key hole cut in it. at the 4 corners of the steel there are bolts which you slowly tighten and it extracts the carrot. down side it the bolts can scar the rock as you tighten them but if you put another piece of metal under them that problem is minimise. ive not used one personally but seen them in action and they are great.
<edit for terrible spelling> |
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Cragx 23:29:01 Wed Sep 28 2005 Offline 2051 posts Administrator  Mood Now:  Post Mood: Reply |
Any pics hawkman?
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shawkshaw 01:04:41 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
photo can be found here
http://www.safercliffs.org/code/tips.html |
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Cragx 01:17:36 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 2051 posts Administrator Mood Now: Post Mood: Reply |
you guys going to make and sell them?
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shawkshaw 01:24:01 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
could do. would have to look into it.
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chris_coghill 01:55:55 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 278 posts Onsight Specialist Reply |
I'd buy one, steve!
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thesimplepilot 02:54:20 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 244 posts Onsight Specialist  Reply |
i made a couple. the problems i found with them are the rock scaring, time consuming to tighten the 4 bolts and fiddly, often it will not fit over the head of the bolt because the bolt is in too far.
if anyone want to use them let me know, you can keep them for extended time, share them etc. i can make more if anyone wants them as i've got the steel left over. |
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shawkshaw 03:23:40 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
i reckon the key would be to put a thinner piece of steel on the rock surface. that would minimise the rock scarring. obviously more fiddly and would take up even more space but should work
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Chris_Y 06:00:48 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 102 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
I've got one and encountered similar problems to the pilot. The best solution to the rock scarring issue is to place a Milo tin lid, with a notch cut out, and place it between the rock and carrot killer.
Another problem is that some old and rusted carrots are so fused in the hole, and the exposed head and shaft so corroded that you either stretch! the bolt out, still leaving some of the bolt in the hole or pull some of the surrounding rock out with the bolt. They are useful devices but I would also carry a big shifter or a set of stilsons etc. and possibly be prepared to patch up the hole with some out of date glue and some sand from around the base of the route to color match the surrounding rock. |
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oldandbroken 08:25:17 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 432 posts Onsight Soloer Reply |
I test anchors reguarly for rope access purposes. Hilti makes a tester (T1 ithink) which even a climber should be able to rip off the design. Big feet and lots of leverage is what you are after.
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DODbasher 20:51:36 Thu Sep 29 2005 Offline 32 posts Outdoor Climber Mood Now: Post Mood:  Reply |
:rolleyes:
not a wind up? (is that a pun concidering the following posts) The carrot Killer sounds like the go! But why not call it Roger? :rolleyes: |
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nmonteith 00:18:09 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 118 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
Another solution, especially for very small/short carrots is to just drill a 12mm hole paralell to the old bolt (right next to it), then tap the old shitty bolt across into the bigger hole. This way you extract the old bolt and can see its full length AND you can just use the larger hole as the main hole for the new bolt. I use this system for fused/rusted expansion bolts as well. The smaller (8mm) hole and the new 12mm hole are now one larger oval shaped hole which you can place the new bolt into. If you are worried about this hole being a bit too big, then use a u-bolt and the second leg will be placed in a normal 12mm hole a few centimetres away. I find this system is a quick, reliable and neat way of replacing carrots. Has anyone else done this?
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shawkshaw 01:28:31 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
ive not reused the hole before. i wonder how much effect the increase in glue volume would have on the bolt strength..
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Cragx 01:36:23 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 2051 posts Administrator Mood Now: Post Mood: Reply |
In a lot of sandstone I think the glue is probably stronger than the surrounding rock?
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thesimplepilot 01:42:55 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 244 posts Onsight Specialist Reply |
the tech's at megapoxy like big holes, as the glue is so strong.
they told me if i had any concerns about the rock to use a 14mm hole. |
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shawkshaw 02:54:15 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
interesting because research in concrete anchorages indicates that a 1mm annulus around the bolt was strongest (from memory) will have to dig up the article.
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Cragx 03:53:52 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 2051 posts Administrator Mood Now: Post Mood: Reply |
Concrete is a bit stronger than your average sandstone isnt it?
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nmonteith 04:51:19 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 118 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
Drilling the larger hole to the side of the carrot would mean that the up and down force on the new bolt would still only be a few mm using a 12mm hole.
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Chris_Y 05:01:52 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 102 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
You could always drill the holes out to 14mm and place one of those funky split type rings with (approx 12mm shaft dia).
The other issue is however, that quite often the old carrots are not in the best / most logical position in the first place... requiring re-positioning - (witness Walking Wounded at Cosmic) and countless others of course! |
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shawkshaw 06:27:14 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 1343 posts Administrator Reply |
ok neil i get it now. off to the side make more sense. i was originally thinking it was vertically. still who have some effect.
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DODbasher 09:18:31 Fri Sep 30 2005 Offline 32 posts Outdoor Climber Mood Now: Post Mood: Reply |
Ok I have changed my mind
This new method seems to be less time consuming and maybe even less damaging to the rock. I would probably go with a U bolt just in case the rock is weakend any hows! Any one have any idea roughly how long a s/s ring or U will last (asuming no wear.) Estimates? |
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nmonteith 06:18:35 Mon Oct 3 2005 Offline 118 posts Flash Specialist Reply |
Considering many of the carrots we still use are more than 30 years old - lets hope UB and RB's last at least that long!
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chris_coghill 08:55:39 Mon Oct 3 2005 Offline 278 posts Onsight Specialist Reply |
In the rebolts I have done, I used the in-situ bolt to anchor the rap line so that I could place the new one. Neil's option works on slabs, but anything steep needs the old bolts to hold you in to drill the new holes.
Much easier when you are bolting cracks though, cause you can stick a cam in to hold you into the rock while you replace the old bolt with a nice big stainless steel one (that was one for the victorians!). |
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