Co-Dependancy
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melaniemac
14:56:26 Fri
Jan 9 2004
Co-Dependancy
I was reading the thread in "Ask a narcissist" about partners of NPDers.

I totally believe my behavior contributed to the relationship. When I first met my husband I hero-worshipped him. He was a bass player in a band, he and his brother constructed their own airplane, he was a banker with a good reputation. And he flattered me like no one had ever done before.

If I had been in a place of better self esteem, would I have gotten involved with this guy? I have no idea. I wasn't, and that's where we ended up. Or would I have gotten involved, but been able to set up boundaries. Even in my friendships I could not set up boundaries. I am getting better at it now however.

Do you feel you contributed to your spouses/SO's behavior? I know I just pretty much let him do whatever he wanted because I just wasn't strong enough to say NO. In talking with my husband's first wife, she said their relationship didn't start to get really bad until she started saying no to his requests and asking him to do things she wanted to do. It was the same with us, our lives were all about what he was doing.

I don't know that I would classify myself borderline. I have questioned my counselor on it repeatedly and she doesn't think it's that bad. She certainly agrees that who I was helped him be who he was. And we can all see it now with his new girlfriend also.

Just some early morning ramblings.

Mel
ameera
15:28:50 Fri
Jan 9 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
There is a saying, and those of us who come from the West Indies, or who are familiar with that culture might
be familiar with it. It goes, "A monkey knows what tree to climb". All of the partners I have had in my life time have had very similiar narcissistic traits, and all of them, without question, hated my little sister on sight. I firmly believe it is because my sister has narcissistic traits. I believe we send out signals to people we meet as to what we're willing to deal with and what we will accept. For a Narcissist, at least in my experience, they are trying to establish how far they can go. When I was in a Domestic Violence support group, we spent a lot of time trying to lay the blame for the abuse where is should rightfully go, with the abuser, and that was because the "victims" had started to participate in their own abuse by taking responsibility for their partners behavior. Now this was useful for me, because at the time, I didn't believe I was being abused. I had watched my mother and father fight like cats and dogs, and I had been a victim of sexual abuse, so I thought my relationship was normal. However, very soon after, I started to really look at my past relationships and the similarities, and I had to admit that there was something in me that was attracted to or attracting there types of people.
weissfamily
22:22:23 Fri
Jan 9 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
I certainly agree with the idea that all sides in a relationship contribute to everything which happens in the duration of their time together. I need to run out here so I'm not going to get to finish my thoughts right now. I do want to say that I don't believe its ever healthy to hero worship someone and have that be the basis for a realtionship. I'm afraid that's asking for all kinds of problems.
Having_a_Life
03:21:01 Sat
Jan 10 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
I absolutely contributed to my husband's behavior. I am ... or was ... too contientous and too responsible. When we married, he had never lived on his own. He went straight from living at home into the Navy. On the other hand, I had lived on my own and worked and spent a couple of years at college before I joined the Navy.

When we married, our son was born weeks later. I became a stay at home mom with the skills to run the house and family. All of those years ago, I took over ALL of those responsibilities. It was a huge mistake that became ingrained.

I also think that the military moves contributed to my co-dependency. Every time we transferred, I was totally out of my element, isolated and miserable for the first year. I was dependent upon him.

It's interesting to me that when I finally found a therapist, he supported me ... for a while. There came a point where he demanded that I not go. Rather than fight with him about it, I lied each and every week for several years and destroyed the insurance info. Finally, one weekend after I had moved to finish school, he confronted me with an insurance advisory. He told me that we shouldn't have secrets from each other. I held my ground. I told him that I had indeed been lying and would continue to lie because I was going to go and would not fight about it.

It occurs to me that he didn't cope well with my personal growth, hence his demand that I quit going.

Cheers!
Life


hestia
16:01:54 Sun
Jan 11 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Boy, y'all have been busy this week!

When I first went to counseling, the counselor said I might be co-dependent. My mom and dad both had alcoholic parents, and my mom was sexually abused by her dad, and I'm almost sure my dad was physically abused at least by his mom. However, by the end of therapy, she said she thought I was not co-dependent but had some co-dependent tendencies. When I read co-dependent literature, some of it fits, and some of it doesn't. The only book I've ever read that made me think, "This is me!" is Trapped in the Mirror, about adult children of narcissists. But I still read co-dependent literature and glean what is helpful for me from it.

Part of what is confusing for me is that so much of what is called "co-dependent" is actually also normal social conditioning for women. I was raised to take care of a man, to make men comfortable, and to pretend I was less intelligent than I am. My dad literally said, "You should either not get married and have a career, or get married and realize the deal is that the wife is to take care of the husband. That's just the way it is."

So for me, I guess this is another case where the label is only as helpful as it is helpful, if that makes sense. I know I have issues with taking care of myself and boundaries and knowing what "normal" is, and I know I have alcoholism in my family background, so I take the co-dependency lit seriously. But I am also careful not to let it define me or make me feel bad about myself. Because I am also a very strong, independent person, and I really don't need to be needed. By the way, there is a new book, which I haven't read yet, called The Narcissistic Family. It is about people who have co-dependent tendencies but are not married to addicts. I guess they've found some shared tendencies in their families, namely that the individuals in the family exist to meet the family's needs, instead of the other way around.

Maybe this is why individual therapy is so important. So we can sort out what fits us and what doesn't with an objective person who can keep us honest!
Balbrenny
14:17:25 Mon
Jan 12 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Mel,

I agree with you. When I first met my ex I was recovering from other personal trauma (being diagnosed bipolar, etc.) and my self-esteem was at an all-time low. He, on the other hand, presented as a guy who had it all together - Australian gold medallist in his chosen sport and on a good career path. He was also 8 years younger than me and I was soooo flattered by his attentions!! Like Ameera said "A monkey knows what tree to climb". Yes, I hero-worshipped to begin with - he was so many things that I was not!

Like Hestia, I have been told by my therapist that I am not codependant but I am aware of codependancy tendencies and issues. Again, as Hestia says, much of what can be labeled as codependancy is also what is normal social conditioning for women. As a woman's libber from the early 1970s, I was, in any relationship, very conscious of many of the things that women are supposed to do and very resistant to doing them - I expected my ex to do his share of the housework, for example - and he played the part of the liberated male to a T.

But - and I am not trying to shake responsibility here - he conditioned me over a long period to be subservient to his demands. He did this through his moods. I am a normally easy-going person who cares a lot for other people ( 20 + years in welfare work) so I just gave in to a lot of things because I reasoned that, if it meant so much to him, I didn't really care. Of course, this also led to deep-rooted resentment because I was not getting my needs met.

I have always been a very strong, independent person with strong views - but I have also always been a person who cares deeply about others. I am not denying my part in the development of our relationship but I wonder if some people with NPD develop relationships with people who are very caring because those sorts of people serve to bolster their esteem.

In hindsight, I can see that that for many years I treated my ex almost like I would another child. Boosting his self-esteem, treading gently when I knew that he was in the wrong, stroking his ego. Much of this is bolstered by popular myths around men being less in touch with their emotions and seeking a mother-figure. "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" stuff.

In many ways, this fits with the model of people with NPD reacting in many ways as children. The relationships that they would then find most satisfying would be with people who have a strong mothering streak. Again, back to what Hestia was saying (sorry if I'm rambling but it's 1 a.m.), not only do most women have a mothering instinct but we are taught from an early age to care for others - and a man with NPD would appeal to those instincts on many levels.

Does any of that make sense? Like I said, it's late and I've had a couple of glasses of wine (or 3 or 4 -who's counting anyway?!!).








ameera
14:36:40 Mon
Jan 12 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Balbrenny, I don't think you're rambling. You're making perfect sense. To put it simplistically. If an N develops a false self and disassociates himself from his real feelings, he has not emotionally developed passed the age that he was when this happened.
For example, I once read that an alchoholic who begins drinking at a young age, because his reality is being alterred by the alchohol, never gets to experience the events in puberty that allow him to grow up and become an adult, and as such, when he /she becomes sober, he/she has to literally go back to that time period (emotionally) and learn some of the lessons would have been learned, if not for the addiction. I think you can use the same train of thought when thinking of someone who develops NPD. And what better person to partner with such a man (or woman) than a mother/father figure?
melaniemac
15:02:25 Mon
Jan 12 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Good to know I'm not the only one in the "extra child" boat. My counselor asked me one day how many children I had. I looked at her strange because we had discussed my baby boys many times.

Then she said "no really, how many people do you take care of?"

It's hard not to play that role. My whole life I wanted to be a mommy. I guess the difference is, you don't expect a whole lot of gratitude from a three year old, you do from a 42 year old.

Makes me wonder how I'm going to be going forward. Am I just going to repeat the pattern, or will I have learned anything. I sure hope this wasn't all for nothing and that I will come out a stronger person.

Hmm, too early on a Monday to get to philisophical.

Need coffee.

Have a great day everyone.

Mel
hestia
15:51:55 Mon
Jan 12 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
This thread is so true!!! I remember thinking after I had my son, "Well, I have two children now." Linda, like you, I am a feminist, and my husband also played the liberated male to a T. But he did start to slowly control me through his moods. I allowed him to do this by caring to much, being too responsible, for his moods. But the other piece is that when his mood swung too low, he would go into a rage at the world, which would frighten me. Given my upbringing, as much as I wanted an equal relationship, it was just too easy to fall into meeting his needs. And gosh but the smoldering resentment just ate me alive. I like Amerra's saying about the monkey and the tree, and I will also remember what she says about the mother/father figure. If I'm ever in a relationship again, I'm going to have to watch out to keep from stepping into that role.

Mel, your fear about repeating the cycle is the big one for me. But I am inspired by TC and his talk about it being worth the risk. Maybe the only way to break the cycle is to keep trying until we get it right. Otherwise, while we may not be in relationship with a SO, and the cycle is pushed into the background, it's still not broken. Or is staying single the only way to get out of it? Don't know. I'm with you. Time for coffee...
Having_a_Life
03:09:42 Tue
Jan 13 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Yes, yes, yes!

Equal rights was my soapbox for years. I was independent and liberated. Funny that my husband claims he never heard my views on the subject the first few years we were married.

Over time, I also allowed his moods to dictate my actions. Overtime, my self-esteem was dictated by by his overt and covert acting out at me. I always knew he only liked me when I was strong ... but not too strong. Slowly, over 20 years I lost all sense of self. I had no idea what my dreams or goals were. I had no idea that I had any strengths. Every weakness was magnified through his eyes into my soul.

I began to find stability when I was able to disengage emotionally from his words and behaviors.
Life
Balbrenny
08:43:08 Wed
Jan 14 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
I've been thinking about this thread during the last couple of days. And about the definition of co-dependancy. There is an interesting discussion here
CODEPENDENCY REFRAMED on whether codependancy is a mental health issue or a gender issue.

A few quick quotes:

"Peter Vesgo, President of Health Communications, Inc. estimates that eighty five per cent of the codependency market is female (Kaminer, 1990)."

"Thus women not only define themselves in a context of human relationship but also judge themselves in terms of their ability to care. Women’s place in man’s life cycle has been that of nurturer, caretaker, and helpmate, the weaver of those networks of relationships on which she in turn relies."

"Based on Gilligan’s research it becomes evident that from a very early age girls are taught to value relationships over the self and to consider the needs of others first."

"If the child ... grows up to find herself in a relationship with an abusive and/or alcoholic husband, to survive she will first rely on her early training, nurturing, caring, cleaning, (it’s your responsibility to fix it and make it nice). When her fruitless attempts to control the uncontrollable makes her life miserable, she views the failure of the relationship as her personal failure."

"Placing codependency in the next version of DSM, and defining it as a disease with a prescribed treatment, will do a great disservice not just to women but to the whole of humanity. Concern with relationships is a human strength, to “treat” women for this “disorder” by “teaching” them masculine boundaries and sense of self is to devalue the feminine role even further. A more effective response lies in social change and empowerment. By giving real power and status to the role of care taker, nurturer and child-bearer (instead of just paying it lipservice), women will be able to exercise more control over themselves and their lives and relationships."

Much of my anger over what has happened in my life is to do with the fact that I feel angry at myself for being such a "doormat". After all, as a women's libber, I would never have believed that I would have got myself in such a position and put up with the erosion of self that I succumbed to for years. This article summed up much of how I was feeling - that I do not have any issues (hey - apart from being bipolar!!) - that I was responding as a normal woman with a caring disposition to somebody she loved.

From my experience in domestic violence, I would say that co-dependancy does exist. I have seen women who go from one abusive relationship to another. Yes, I went from a relationship with an alcoholic to a relationship with somebody who suffered from NPD. But, at the time that I entered the relationships, those traits were not evident.

In fact, I was so concerned about co-dependancy issues, that I mistook the walls that my NPD ex had erected (he presented as a very together guy) as a strong sense of self-esteem. By the time I realised how needy he was, we had 2 kids (I got pregnant the first time we had sex, despite precautions. We lost that one due to an ectopic pregnancy and an emergency op - I almost died - but that experience greatly influenced our relationship - he seemed very caring, etc.)

As for my first ex, I was 19 and he was 20 when we first started living together. Everybody I knew was into drugs and alcohol. The difference was that most of us grew out of it and got our lives together - he kept on going. So I left.

Anyway, my psych keeps telling me that I'm not co-dependant but I'm still scared to enter a new relationship. At the moment I'm feeling that I'll just concentrate on myself and on my kids.

Read the article and let me know what you think ....

Linda



hestia
16:40:35 Wed
Jan 14 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Linda, I loved it, especially her proposed book title for men: Beyond Independency... It is so true. And the rock and the hard place thing is a real mess. Even when women are independent, economically and power motivated, it's not as though the male dominated psychological institutions (i.e., the APA in this country) says, "Wow! What healthy human beings!" No, they talk about these women as "animus driven" in public, and I think we all know what some people call them behind their backs. Yet conform to what we have been taught to do from the time we were toddlers, and we become diseased. Which is why I try not to take the co-dependency stuff too literally. Truth is, in this world, women need to have what is called a "hermeneutic of suspicion." We need to interpret things very carefully, since most people are culturally conditioned to think it's ok to use us to meet their needs. Women even do this to other women, all the time, if we let them. The real solution is a balance, where women have power to be more independent, and men are able to become more nurturing. After years of thinking about it, I often wonder if we aren't just at a water-shed in human evolution, where some of us are in a different place than the rest of the pack due to genes, circumstances, whatever. NPDers working on their healing could be in this new, in-between place as legitimately as so-called co-dependents, with the common ground being insight, and the reality that we are, as newly evolving creatures, all a little lop-sided and out of balance. You know, not that we're more advanced than anyone else, but that we are what the future will see as a sort of "missing link." Hope I don't contribute to anyone's grandiosity with this theory, least of all my own!!! :smile:

Anyway, I think of Clarissa Pinkola Estes again, who calls on us to look, listen, sniff, see what is there; know when to fight and when to walk away; claim our battle scars.

I also think part of what happens on the "victim's" boards is that they see how people with NPD have manipulated and brought out the worst in them. What they don't see is that those with NPD aren't trying to make them miserable, they are just trying to survive the only way they know how. And unfortunately for everyone, they have those abilities perfected. They win someone's confidence, being who we want them to be, and we don't see the truth until much later. And unfortunately for us, we are raised to take care of other people assuming that they will also be willing to take care of us, and that they will value that caregiving as much as we do. We are also raised as women to trust that men might not do this caregiving as often as we do, but that in a real jam they will be there with the caregiving that we need. At least, this is how I was raised, and so I gave and gave to my husband, trusting that he would help me keep my life from getting to small, trusting that when I really needed him he would be there. I may or may not enter a new relationship, but I tell you, from now on, only I will be deciding whether or not my life is getting too small, and any man I get involved with better be ready to prove to me that he will be there. I am not co-dependent partly in that I have always given my partner a lot of space-- I really believe in space for both people in the realtionship-- yet I am very invested and caring in other people. If anybody's ever smart enough to realize who I am, he'll be a lucky guy. (Gee, guess the self-esteem is doing a little better today!)
Hubbabubba
11:21:35 Sun
Jan 18 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Whoa, sounds to me as though people are trying to say its fine to label others as something but sure as heck don't label me. I've seen this in some other community discussions as well. Kind of strange.

I wonder why people have such strong issues about accepting how they empower something like NPD. I have had at least two relationships with men who are NPD. That says something about me, don't you think. No, I don't believe the NPDers are out there targeting prey. I do think they look for relationships that meet something of their needs, much in the same way that we do.


Balbrenny
13:55:53 Sun
Jan 18 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Hubba,

I don't think that is what people are saying at all in this thread. But I do believe that some of the labels that are used in the mental health community are gender-biased.

Until the last century, women in the western world did not even have the vote (apart from in Australia and New Zealand, as far as I know) and in Britain could not own property in their own name - it had to be held in trust for them by a male relative. Their husbands had the legal right to beat them if they were disobedient. Women were taught that their very existence depended on males. They were expected to obey their fathers and then their husbands - they had no say in their own lives (apart from a few notable exceptions). They were taught to be totally dependant on men. Until WW1, married women were discouraged from entering the paid workforce and men were ashamed of having a wife who went out to work. The laws may have changed but many girls are still taught from an early age to be dependant on men.

When I was growing up in the 1950s, boys were taught to focus on their careers and girls were taught to focus on being a wife and a mother - that was their role in life - to take care of others - to be needed by others. They were taught, by female relatives and popular literature, strategies for 'keeping their men happy' including praising them and never, ever telling them they were wrong. I could not get into the University course that I wanted to do (Vet science) because the female intake, in 1971, was limited to 9% of the total intake because it was not considered a suitable career for women. At that time, the general consensus in Britain was that it was a waste of time for a woman to go to Uni because she should be concentrating on finding a husband and having babies.

Until 40 years ago or less in the UK a man had the legal right to demand sex from his wife anytime he liked - there was no legal charge of rape when a man forced his wife to have sex.

So what does that mean in terms of how women have been taught to relate to their husbands? A woman had to subdue her own feelings and conform to her husband, even about something as basic as sex. In order to have her own basic needs of food, shelter and physical safety met, she needed to keep her husband happy. People do not start to think about other things until those needs have been met and the only way a woman could do that respectably was to find a husband and keep him.

Many of the patterns and characteristics of codependancy that are found at the Codependents Anonymous site are ones that I can honestly say I was, as a child, taught were the proper characteristics for a 'good, caring woman' to have. And not by my family but by cultural and social norms and standards.

Personally, I do not have a problem with being labelled - I have had the label of bipolar for 20 years and have been under psychiatric care on and off for a good part of that time. I have explored codependancy issues extensively with 3 psychiatrists and they have each told me that I am not codependent. But I am a warm, caring person who genuinely likes people and who gets joy from making others happy.

If my type of personality attracts people with NPD or any other problem, because they can sense my caring, then that does not make me codependent. If I stayed in a relationship with somebody who had NPD because I could see the good in them and because I believe that there is a commitment that goes with having children with someone, then that does not make me codependent. If I did not jump up and down screaming about how my needs were not being met but instead concentrated on meeting the needs of my children and my spouse, I was only doing what women have been taught to do for generations.

I'm not denying that the relationship would empower NPD - a person with NPD would probably not stay in a relationship unless s/he was getting their needs met. But I do believe that it is a sad reflection on our society when people who place importance on relationships and who like to take care of others are labelled as as 'codependent' and made to feel that there is something wrong with them.

Take care

Linda




hestia
14:03:54 Sun
Jan 18 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Hubba, I don't think folks with NPD are targeting prey either. We're all (and by this I mean all human beings) just trying to survive. And sometimes those coping mechanisms hook up in really dysfunctional ways. But I do think there is a gender bias out there, just as there are biases about class, race, and sexual orientation. As for my evolutionary ramblings... Who knows? Too much serotonin? Too much caffeine?

I agree with you about labels. And yet to a certain extent being able to name something gives you power over it. So while I don't label myself co-dependent, I'm also clear I have a toolbox of co-dependent coping mechanisms, some of which are really self-defeating. That label helps me stop and go, ok, is this a dysfunctional coping mechanism from my family? from my culture? or is this something congruent with my deepest values, something I should stick with no matter how it might appear to others? I think the same goes for the NPD label. However, I don't know if the gender bias applies. Maybe it does, but with an opposite sort of affect, as in, maybe our culture supports NPD type behavior in men and thus makes it harder for people to root out these tendencies in themselves. There I go again, and I haven't even had any coffee yet!
weissfamily
17:34:20 Mon
Jan 19 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
I have a lot of problem with what I'm reading here for a number of reasons; 1) Co-dependency is by no means limited to females. I know males that either meet the criteria or easily could be diagnosed as such 2) I could make a similiar gender biais and cultural biasis about NPD. Let's face it NPD is largely male and largely a result of how society teaches males to behave. I believe co-dependency is real. My wife may well have it, sh-t its possible I meet the criteria. I don't see any benefit in turning this into a gender biais argument, though it already has been in the larger community.

I saw a comment someone in one of the posts that an NPDer wouldn't stay in a relationship if the partner was not meeting their needs in some way. Depends on your perspective but I wound tend to disagree with this. Many times it seems a person with NPD has no clue what their needs are so how can they be meet. A person gets into a relationship and they become so attached to it and they are afraid to leave, much like the co-dependents.




hestia
00:33:59 Tue
Jan 20 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Weissfamily-- I do believe co-dependency is real, but that there is a real tendency to use it to blame women for acting the way they have been socialized to be. And I think you could make the same gender/culture bias argument about NPD-- in fact, this is what I was trying to say. Where I disagree is about whether or not doing this sort of analysis is helpful. IMO, if healing is about getting your ego in proper relationship to your soul, then it is helpful to look at how the ego was formed to begin with. I think it could be really helpful for those with NPD or NPD tendencies to look at what in their social conditioning contributes to that. Of course men can be co-dependent and women NPD, too.

I really appreciate your comment that someone with NPD may not even know what his/her needs are, and become attached to a relationship. That's helpful to me-- thanks!

Hes
melaniemac
02:24:58 Tue
Jan 20 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
I too believe there are real people who are co-dependant.

Realistically we must admit there are gender differences. Women are nurturers and men are hunter-gathers. Just a fact of life. Been that way since the dawning of time, and I highly doubt it will ever change. Not 100% of women are nurturers. Not 100% of men are driven hunter-gatherers.

I don't know how much of it is driven by society and how much of it is just part of who we are. I think people should stop trying to make men and women the same. We aren't. Can't be. Most likely never will be. We look different, act different and even our brains are wired differently (the old fused brain...). In Tolle's "The Power of Now" he talks about how women are just naturally closer to spiritual enlightenment because of the nurturing factor.

Even in animals there are differences between the genders. We should stop fighting them and start figuring out how we can best use them to make everyone happy. If we celebrated our differences perhaps it would be easier for us to see the other's point of view. I know one of the biggest problems in my marriage is that I expected my partner to think like I do.

There I am, rambling again.

Need sleep.

Mel
Balbrenny
09:44:46 Tue
Jan 20 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Weiss, in my first post, I said that I believed that codependancy was real. I saw plenty of it in my welfare work. And I agree with you that our society contributes towards narcissistic tendencies. Of course, codependancy is not limited to women, just as NPD is not limited to men.

But I also believe that not all people who have been in a relationship with someone with NPD have codependancy issues.
ameera
15:29:51 Wed
Jan 21 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck, then you know what? It's a duck!
I think the whole discussion about labels is neither here nor there. I think sometimes people dislike labels because they don't want something tangible to deal with; sometimes they don't like being put in a box; sometimes they don't like being identified with a certain group of people. We can call the symptoms whatever we want, but when it comes down to it, if you're dealing with a particular way of coping, of interacting with another person, there's no denying the similarities.
NarcissusBasher
23:12:32 Wed
Jan 21 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Isn't it the case that girls are attracted to men like their fathers? Therefore a woman who has had an inadequate father figure will always pick abusive men.
Balbrenny
02:58:25 Fri
Jan 23 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Let me tell you a story. When white people first came to Australia, they found these furry little animals that looked like rats - they walked like rats, talked like rats and they acted like rats. The white people labelled them rats. Only they weren't rats. Rats are mammals. These little creatures are marsupials - not even closely related to rats. Just because something strongly resembles something else on a superficial level does not mean that it is that thing. And how much more complicated than that are the issues surrounding mental health? How many kids were first labelled ADHD when they were really autistic?

If some members of the F/F on this board have been told by their counsellors that they do not have codependency, then why should they accept that label because people who have never met them or talked to them want to give them that label?

Let me tell you another story. I dated this man a few times and, despite precautions, fell pregnant to him. He was wonderfully supportive and caring. We lost that baby but he had bought a house for us. We had two more children and he was a fantastic father - his sons adored him. Meanwhile, I had realised that there was another side to him. I discussed counselling with him - he always found excuses not to go. I wanted to leave him but he told me that if I did, he would take the kids and take me to Court and prove that I was an unfit mother on the grounds that I have a diagnosis of bipolar (although I have not been medicated for it since 1985). He said he would move away with the kids and I would never see them again. Logically I knew that he could not do this but I also knew that I could not afford a court battle and I was frightened that he might win - he is a person with a lot of powerful friends and he has a lot of money. I tried to leave more than once but he always threatened me with the unfit mother stuff. And in my work, I was aware of cases where, for political reasons, courts had made dreadful decisions on custody. Australia was in the middle of the 'Stolen Generation' debate and if a father (or mother) could show aboriginal descent, then they got custody, regardless of whether it was in the child's best interests or not. My ex's mother is possibly part-aboriginal. If he could prove that, I would lose.

So, because I did not want to put my kids through the trauma of a custody battle and because I was frightened that he might win, I stayed. And having decided to stay, I focused on his good points and tried to make the best of it.

So, if people on this board want to believe that that makes me codependent, then you are welcome to do so. I don't believe that it does and I do not believe that it helps in healing to accept a label that does not apply to your personal experience.

Linda




CoolBlonde
03:02:03 Fri
Jan 23 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Quote: NarcissusBasher at 23:12:32 Wed Jan 21 2004

Isn't it the case that girls are attracted to men like their fathers? Therefore a woman who has had an inadequate father figure will always pick abusive men.


It is very common for both men and women to be attracted to a partner who is similar to one of their parents. That makes sense since you would feel most natural interacting with someone the same way your family interacted when you were growing up. Of course if your family interacted like lunatics, then it's highly unlikely that you would have any clue as to how to behave in a "normal" relationship.
hestia
13:53:55 Fri
Jan 23 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
I was curious so I went to the Codependents Anonymous site Linda mentioned. I think may 25-30% of the characteristics fit me. But I'll talk to my therapist about it. I've got to say, I think the reason I like the co-dependency literature is it focuses so much on self-care and boundaries, areas where I am weak, and since my mom's dad was alcoholic, it seems to fit in some ways. Technically, I think the fact that my grandfather was alcoholic (and I think my paternal grandparents may have been too) make me "co-dependent".

It seems to me that folks with NPD are very different than alcohoics in terms of the functioning scale-- folks with NPD tend to function better, I think-- so the issues don't emerge until later and can be very subtle for a long time.

As for father figures, I'd agree that women are attracted to men who were like their fathers. But I don't agree that a woman with an inadequate father figure will "always" pick abusive men. If we're going to believe words like "always" and "never," seems to me this community might as well close up shop and go home, because if "always" or "never" are true for women who pick abusive men, they are also true for NPDers, people with NPD tendencies, and F/F. As long as there's hope for change and healing, there's no such thing as "always" or "never" for any of us.

When I asked my therapist about my mental healthy in general, in terms of personality disorders and the like, she said that while it was too soon for a diagnosis per say, she didn't see any serious psychological problems at this point. When I asked how she could know so soon, she said by how quickly I got a safety plan together and got things together so I was ready to file for divorce at a moment's notice. I guess that's a sign I can take care of myself or something.
jimmie
16:27:15 Fri
Jan 23 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Interesting. There's a lot to take in here. On the surface I would agree with some points being made but stronly disagree with others.

I do believe that spouses and others contribute to a relationship with NPD. That's not to say all people who enter a relationship with someone who is NPD are automatically co-dependent or Borderline. There is a lot of lit on this issue and seems to come down to blame. I don't believe that blaming anyone is apt to lead to healing. This is a lesson I'm still learning. God knows it has played itself out in our living room over the past few months.

Is co-dependency real? I believe it is beyond a doubt. Just because it doesen't fit you doesn't mean its not a serious issue for people in relationships with NPDers or others. Sometimes if it looks like a rat it is a rat.
Balbrenny
11:02:36 Sat
Jan 24 2004
Re: Co-Dependancy
Just to set the record straight, I do believe that codependency does exist and said so in my 2nd post in this thread.

I also stated that my behaviour during the relationship contributed to the problems within the relationship. I agree with Jimmie that codependency is a serious problem for SOME people who are in relationships with people with NPD (and other disorders).

It just seems to me that there are people on this board who want to apply the codependency label to ALL people who have been in relationships with people with NPD, regardless of whether the label fits them or not. And that has to be unhealthy.


Co-Dependancy
http://bb.bbboy.net/healnpd-viewthread?forum=21&thread=112
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