Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Is it better to know if you have NPD.
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gailabelle
18:43:24 Fri
Jul 2 2004

I think my husband has NPD but he thinks he's normal. After years of suffering from his emotional and verbal abuse I decided to try to figure out why he behaves this way. I thought It might be some sort of learning disablitiy but when I searched on his behaviors I discovered NPD. I have not told him I know. But, since my discovery I have changed my behavior by not responding to the things he does on purpose to annoy me. He appears confused by his inability to get a reaction from me but I feel much better now. Is it better to know if you have NPD or not? Does knowing really change anything?

TcBrown
22:17:49 Fri
Jul 2 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

This is a very sensitive issue. Generally speaking I have no use for labels because they are confining, the criteria are, at best, subjective (even among the most qualified professionals). We are seeing less and less professionals using these terms because of these reasons, and because labels focus on the negative and healing must be centered around the positive.

I'd discourage you ever mentioning that you believe he is NPD. This is a serious disorder to be treated by professionals. There is considerable amounts of inaccurate information about this disorder which has spawned so much of the hatred around those with this disorder.

Its one thing to talk about issues and concerns without judgement, and express a desire that he might seek help. Its quite another to come out and judge him to be a very negative label.

Mlashtok
23:12:40 Fri
Jul 2 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Speaking as someone who discovered his narcissistic problems in a less-than-nice way, I would also encourage you NOT to tell your husband. There are many ways you can help him without turning to negative labels, like Tony said.

Good luck,

Matt

gailabelle
04:05:06 Sat
Jul 3 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Thanks for responding, but I still wonder is it better to know?. Are you'll glad that you know? Did it make any difference? I don't have any intentions of telling him. It is enough for me that I finally know. I don't need a professionals opinion for confirmation. 20+ years of observing his behavior makes me a pro. I do not think that the "considerable amounts of inaccurate info ...spawns... the hatred of those with this disorder". In my case him and his behavior are solely responsible for spawning my hatred not any information or misinformation. And, I don't have any misconceptions about him seeking help either. He has had plenty of time for that. However, I am planning to leave him and I am concerned about what his reaction will be when I do. And I find myself wondering a lot about whether ignorance is bliss or would it be better to know. I'm normally not one for labels either but labeling his "abuse" for what it is and learning about this disorder went a long way towards healing for me. Thanks again for responding, I really appreciate it.

Mlashtok
04:23:35 Sat
Jul 3 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

I am glad that I know about my narcissistic disorder, since I am young and have a lot of time ahead of me to work at maturing as a person (which is a BIG task, no kidding).

I understand your hatred, since I hate my narcissistic father a lot of the time. I figure that your husband will be furious and terrified when he first finds out that you want to leave, but he will then either find another superficial partner or retreat into grandiose isolation... duh I guess. Maybe with distance you will be able to see him as a sad/pathetic person, rather than someone worthy on hate. That's what I'm working on with my father, especially as I'm about to leave for college.

Good luck,

Matt

taransmith
19:49:35 Sat
Jul 3 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

I think what others are saying is that without professional diagnosis no one knows anything for sure. I don't relate at all to the label of NPD. I never have really and less so since thinking about this for a year or so. Its important for people to discover their true self and NPD is about your false self.

ciriatto
04:34:10 Mon
Jul 5 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

I do think misinformation has spawned hatred. Particularly the belief that NPD is a disorder that cannot be healed and is somehow either a matter of an abuser's willful choice to misbehave, or a matter of some innate incurable evil. It's oner way to justify hatred.

If, on the other hand, a professional with years of medical practice diagnosed your husband with early stage Creuzfeldt-Jakob disease (mad cow) and insisted that his behaviour could be completely explained by an infection resulting in brain tissue deterioration ... what happens to the hate?

Armchair cyber-psychs can do a lot of damage with their diagnoses.

If a label gives you comfort, I'm sure it's better to label the behaviour, not the person. Nothing wrong with setting firm boundaries and saying "This *behaviour* is abusive." And THAT'S what the victim sites describe. Not NPD not BPD not ASPD... but abusive behaviour. Who needs a label?

gailabelle
01:52:17 Sat
Jul 10 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Thanks everyone for your input. The truth is I don't hate my husband, but I do hate his behavior. More than that I hate the way I feel and thought that I have this hate inside me. His behavior is the source and therefore on some level I do blame him. This hate or possibly more appropiately the feeling could be described as extreme anger maybe even rage is now inside me and I have a strong desire to get it out. I know it is destructive, and not healing at all, and I do not want to feel this way. I was confused about why I felt this way until I learned about PDs, and the effects of abuse. I did not want to wear a label either. I did not want to think of myself as being an emotionally abused person. But ultimately after lots of soul searching, and replaying scenerios in my head, and reading everything I could I knew the shoe fit me. It is the only thing that makes sense. I have been the victim of verbal and emotional abuse. I think my unresolved emotional pain was stacked so high it started to come out in my behavior. I began to hate myself and I began acting like him more which made me hate myself more. Ultimately I realized stooping to his level and treating him like he treated me was was not the right thing for me. Basically, my concious bothered me. I reaffirmed that I do not like to be mean or hateful. I did not think of myself as a victim because I have never laid down my sword and just took his abuse. I fought back tooth and nail. I learned the hard way about the value of setting boundries. However, I have suffered many reprecussions as a result. Actually thinking that he has NPD helps me have more empathy towards him not more hatred. When you name it, like mad cow, and the inflicted can own it, it seems easier because it "makes sense". I spent years trying to make sense of my situation, trying to fix me, him, the envriorment, doing everything and anything in an effort to understand.
Heck, here I am still doing it. (LOL) If, for example, you were HIV postive and you did not know it, and therefore infected someone else, it is different than if you knew it and infected someone else because then it would be or seem intentional which makes it much worse. When my husband knows (because I told him and he seemingly acknowledged understanding or faked it and then verbally committed to not doing it again-promised) and then he does it again anyway it is more hurtful because it seems to be intentional. It seems he did not care about me, my feelings, our marriage, his own well being, or anything. It just don't make sense like a deteiorating brain infection would. And whether or not the ailment is contagious is also a factor for me like having unprotected sex when you dont know you have HIV is different then when you do. Somehow, I feel infected and that infection is why I seek to heal. For me, the seemedy intentional - ness is linked to the anger or hate element. Fortunately, I have not caused any damage yet with my cyper-psych diagnoses because I am only cyber talking about it and I have not taken any actions other then to post around a bit and read a lot. Please be patient with my newbieness. If I did not think people who might be affected by NPD had important opinions on this subject then I would not be on this site. I appreciate the opportunity to have open adult conversation with all of you about this. I want to work together, to understand, to make sense of it, and especially to heal.

ciriatto
06:06:27 Sat
Jul 10 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

If you detected a little hostility in my response, I apologise. It was no doubt there.

I don't know about the others here, but I don't think hearing about how awful people (or specific individuals) with NPD are is going to help me with my own issues. I am personally much more interested in healing the sufferer of NPD, than disparaging him.

That's not to say I don't sympathise with your plight. I know perfectly well --everyone here knows perfectly well-- what it's like to be abused, since we've ALL experienced it.

Your husband, if he does suffer from NPD, is as much a victim as you. More so, probably, since it's pretty much guaranteed he suffered tremendous and terrible abuse as a child when he had no choice but to live with his abusers.

You have the choice to leave him. He did not as an infant have the choice to leave his parents.

Perhaps some of that "intentional behaviour" which you find difficult to empathise with would make more sense if you imagine yourself living with your husband from the day of your birth, and how that might affect you....

SFFL
16:06:06 Sun
Jul 11 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

This is a wonderful thread, please keep offering your responses. I understand what both sides are saying. It seems that informing the abuser they are doing something wrong by abusing another allows them the opportunity and choice to try harder at stopping rather than perpetuating the abuse. At the same time, having been brought up to only know abuse would make it more difficult to discard. Exposure to modeling abusive behavior is difficult for all of us to correct in any family, on a variety of levels. If both people are striving for healing, love and growth then maybe asking the abuser if they are working towards that at the time of any given situation is part of the answer. . . ? ? ?

TcBrown
14:51:04 Mon
Jul 12 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Truthfully, little around NPD is about abuse. This is a disorder of people who are living the only life they have known. Relationships with those who might be NPD are complex largely because such relationships are rarely if ever solely about NPD. As has been talked about a lot here this is a two way street. Labels result in boxed in thinking and very little which works toward healing. I applaud those therapists who steer clear of labels.

melaniemac
17:27:53 Mon
Jul 12 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

" I did not want to wear a label either. I did not want to think of myself as being an emotionally abused person. But ultimately after lots of soul searching, and replaying scenerios in my head, and reading everything I could I knew the shoe fit me. It is the only thing that makes sense. I have been the victim of verbal and emotional abuse"

I was seeing a counsellor for probably nine months before I could say this out loud. And there are still days, now that my ex and I are separated that I forget. Seems strange that you can forget how someone treated you. I think it is more that I just don't want to acknowledge it. Plus there is the fact that because the abuse was emotional and verbal, people don't really look at it as real. I try and explain to people what life with him was like and they seem to think I am just exaggerating or being too emotional. I just don't even bother anymore. My close friends and family saw it. They saw the change in me and now that we are separated they slowly see me become who I was again. (not that I will ever be the same as I was, but that is just a fact of life, people continually change and hopefully, grow.)

I think it would be better if my ex acknowledged he needed help. He still thinks that "his way" is the only way, and the right way. I don't think he needs a label. I just think he needs to admit he is terribly confused and hurt. It would help him with all his relationships. With his friends, children, family.

Mel

Dracula
18:54:40 Mon
Jul 12 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Amen to most of what's being said here. If only others were half as enlightened.

Mlashtok
23:19:03 Mon
Jul 12 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Deckhands you really described the pain really well. That's a great explanation with the prison and the red hot pain always so close to the surface. I'm really feeling it today so I hope it goes away soon.

Matt

gailabelle
02:45:07 Tue
Jul 13 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Thanks for all your replies. It seems there are good opinions for both sides of my question - Is it better know? Those of you who know most definitely do not like labels but it was not always clear (to me) if you would rather know than not.
Like melaniemac, it seems to me that acknowledging a problem would be a first step toward healing.
And, deckhandsdaughters comment of "Again paradoxically, the only way to overcome that pain is to stop running from it", seems to support that. I don't guess there is any "good" way to learn of "any" problem. But, if you don't know, then you don't know to work on it, do you?
Special Thanks to SFFL, I was beginning to feel a little uncomfortable on this site, (i.e. a bit bashed because of my newbie errors and my victim mentality), but your comments were very encouraging. I see some similarities between some posts on this site and the victim sites (i.e. they both are abusive of each other in some ways, sometimes). I know sufferers are also abused but I wonder if they "feel it" in the same way. Your reply expresses both these points very well. A key to mutual understanding may very well be in your comment "If both people are striving for healing, love and growth then maybe asking the abuser if they are working towards that at the time of any given situation is part of the answer. . . ? ? ?" Does knowing make you strive to heal or help you recognize abusive behavior might have been a better question.

ciriatto
15:38:01 Tue
Jul 13 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

"I know that sufferers are also abused, but I wonder if they 'feel' it in the same way" ....

What are you saying? Someone with NPD doesn't hurt as much as a healthy person when abused?

You might feel 'bashed' by being told the truth here, but reading your posts, I feel belittled and devalued.

I enjoy this site because it is the only place on the internet where I do not have to listen to victims bash the 'N's' in their lives while showing nothing but a self-centered desire for their own venting (under the guise of 'healing') with no interest or compassion in the pain and suffering the 'N' has and continues to undergo.

I understood that this forum existed for those who were compassionately interested in healing the sufferers of *N*P*D* not just its effects.

I want to feel safe from the victim board N-bashing mentality here, and at the moment, I do not.

I won't return. But I expect I won't be missed.

Take care, all.

TcBrown
15:54:13 Tue
Jul 13 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

ciriatto, if you are going to allow one thread devalue the many other wonderful efforts at healing within the community that is up to you. It says you are much to willing to empower others to distract your healing. That is sad. Although I strongly disagree with certain points in this thread about those with this disorder, I also feel its a long way from the insanity of the victims boards. You have chosen to participate in forum designed for family and friends. If you are not ready for that than it would have been wise not to participate in this discussion.

Now back on topic. I think the major point is continuing to be missed by some. The fact that a spouse, partner, friend, or whatever decides another is NPD by no stretch of the imagination is conclusive proof this is true. It is often passed off as the gospel truth in other communities but it has always been challenged and will continue to be challeneged when it appears in this community.

Only a licensed clinical mental health worker can make such a diagnosis and frankly I encourage people to work with those who avoid labels. There frankly is nothing can I can say about labels at this stage in the journey. They miss the person entirely.

weissfamily
16:36:42 Tue
Jul 13 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Periodically we seem to go back to the old thread that one of our trolls started last summer about those who don't belong in this community. There always have been and likely will always be those who think you cannot play both sides of the street. I disagree and I think this community is a testimony that NPDers and f/f can co-exist. Its not easy. We've had our share of bumps and bruised egos, but for the most part I think we work well together. I should say MOST of us work well together. Some come here far too bruised to be able to co-exist, others don't really have a clue and others come looking for trouble. I guess it keeps life interesting.

Like TC I disagree with points made toward having family and friends thinking they can or should be putting labels on others. But I also don't see the abuse of the victims community taking place in this thread. It looks like someone was looking for an excuse to have a pity party.

gailabelle
21:13:14 Tue
Jul 13 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

I am sorry ciriatto left. I really liked his contributions and comments on p1. I apologize again to anyone I've accidently offended. My husband "never" expresses feelings and does not seem to "me" to "feel" things in the same way I do is why I wonder, that's all I meant.
I really got off on the wrong foot when I said I think my husband has NPD. All of you are right, I am not qualifed to diagnose, your point is well taken.
I used to pray "what should I do" when I was miserable, the answer was always leave. I changed that pray last year to "why does it have to be this way" . I somehow received the reply that the answers I seek are in the past.
I made a list of my observations about my husbands behavior. I was thinking maybe he had a learning disablity and maybe his family was keeping some secrets from me . I had never even heard of PDs or NPD. I had no preconcieved idea of what was wrong except that I was very, unhappy. I was not looking to label anything, I was seeking an understanding. I have gone back to that list many times and replayed scenerios over and over. NPD seems to fit, but I could be wrong. Perhaps if you read the list you would be better able or more qualified to determine if NPD is a possiblity or if I am way off and therefore do not belong here. I would like your opinions but I am too affraid to post the list. It is a little lengthly and may inadvertly offend someone.
Thanks to everyone again for all your wonderful insights and especially your educational information.

TcBrown
15:04:37 Wed
Jul 14 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

At the risk of repeating myself (oh sh-t I repeat myself so often its like beating a dead horse :beatingdeadhorse:

) That's right we now have emoticons for all occassions. :cookiemonster:

But seriously, during last nights conversation Ken Hamilton raised the issue again that NPD is at best what we are, not who we are. Our focus needs to be on who we are because that is where healing can be found. Something to think about as we lament Vaknin's spam all over the internet is that if we shed ourselves of the label NPD we shed ourselves of Vaknin and all that insanity.

gailabelle, don't worry about members who take this kind of thread so seriously they decide to leave. This is a topic which has come up in a variety of ways and always seems to bring about strong emotions. Frankly, its not the most important thing we need to focus our energies on. I really believe in my heart if our focus is the who rather than the what eventually this topic will go away because it will become much easier for people to seek and receive help.

SFFL
13:44:49 Sat
Jul 24 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Gailabelle, I truly appreciate your special thanks to me. I can empathize with you. It's nice to be able to connect and share in our feelings.

I sometimes have a notion to reach f/f and loved ones of those with "NPD" via email to discuss topics further. Is there a place for that here? I don't know.

Anyway, keep strong and good to yourself. Do what is best.

SFFL

cymbele
18:32:30 Mon
Aug 2 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Hi
I haven't been here for a while. I, too, have a hubby with NPD attributes and it really got bad last year. I couldn't say anything either to him. I wouldn't say I was a victim b/c I allowed his behavior and he was never absuvie but the relationship wasn't healthy. My therapist objected to the term of NPD but it truely explained his behavior and really, to a large extent, why I was behaving the way I was as a (i foget the term) supply I think.

Anyway, the good news is that he and I have learned to live together again. This board was good b/c I never cared for the victim type board but helped me to understand his thinking and allow me to vent safely. He still exhibits NPD traits but (1) I understand his reactions better and can prepare myself better and (2) he tries to change even if he can't (I swear it's a can't - not won't).

WE put back on the wedding rings but I'm not sure it's forever. Maybe it is. But because of this board, I am better able to make him feel better.

YOU ARE ALL WONDERFUL. This is prob my last post for ahile. Good luck to all. :ahappyN:

gailabelle
03:26:47 Fri
Aug 13 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Thanks everyone again for your replies. I must admit I am surprised to see this thread still alive. I had pretty much decided it might be best to just let it drop of the page and therefore I refrained from posting (until now). We will never resolve things we can not even talk about and this site gives ALL of us the the opportunity to participate in meaningful conversation. I think a lot about the interesting, insightful, things that others choose to share.
1st, to TC, I'd like to say I have read a lot of your posts, replies, and information, and I really appreciate your efforts and your methods for promoting healing as a first priority. You are doing a great job! Thanks!
2nd to deckhandsdaughter don't worry about me as TC so eloquently puts it, "I am not about to enter the abyss and attempt a rescue". My husband will have to deal with his issues himself. Healing myself is my objective, understanding my husband better is one path for me on that journey.
To cymbele, congratulations and best wishes I hope it works out well for you and your husband. I tried everything imaginable to work it out with mine but unfortunately I know longer even want to try. I agree with deckhandsdaughter that it may not be a "can't" and instead may be just a "not yet" for your husband. I sure hope so.
To SFFL I appreciated your comments because you also seemed to see the irony in the conversation. . You expressed it with a very interesting approach full of good advice for all of us to keep in mind. Somewhere out here I read about some features and options for private chatting and stuff like that maybe we could check those out.
I envision my personal experience like being in a pit, a tornado, spiraling around and around while I desperately try to climb to the top and out. The abuse I experience repeatedly knocks back down into that spinning pit. Now, I pretty much walk around on or near the top sort of circling the pit and only occasionally falling back in and always trying to cling to the top ledge when I do. I think when I asked for the answer and was ready to receive it some divine intervention lead me to learn about PDs, and the knowledge definitely helps me deal with my husbands behavior and gives me a leg up from my pit. Sometimes I think all pained souls are spinning around like me in the tornado pit, reaching for the healing at the top. I think we can sometimes reach in and inspire or grab someone close to us but we can only really save ourselves and then only if we really want too. I still don't know if it would be better for my husband to know or not, I am very confused about that, but I am extremely grateful for the knowledge I've obtained, it is definately been healing for me.
Thanks again everyone.

speerflaura
20:39:44 Fri
Aug 13 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

I have had many interesting conversations with my N about his fascinating self. I have taken the position that he does not feel his feelings, and he has moved (it took him months to do it) from the stated position that he has no emotions to the position that he has only good emotions - love, mainly - and as for anger, well he experiences only an instantaneous flash of recognition of his anger, and then immediately controls it, because experience has taught him that it does no good, etc. etc. I do not believe this. I still don't think he feels his feelings, but I wonder if I am depressing him with my insistence. (He seems more depressed nowadays, but then he is aging, and out of work most of the time.) I would not mind depressing him if I thought it would cause him to face up to his feelings, but then I don't know if anything would. No sense adding to his pain for no purpose.

I have never pronounced him a narcissist, and this is an interesting thread to me too.

laineyblainey
21:01:36 Mon
Aug 16 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Quote: null

When my husband knows (because I told him and he seemingly acknowledged understanding or faked it and then verbally committed to not doing it again-promised) and then he does it again anyway it is more hurtful because it seems to be intentional. It seems he did not care about me, my feelings, our marriage, his own well being, or anything. It just don't make sense like a deteiorating brain infection would

This is one of the most frustrating and puzzling aspects I have observed. For me, emotions are such an intrinsic part of being, as natural as breathing, as available as the air we inhale. It makes �lack of empathy� a difficult concept to grasp--at least as applies to repetitious events.

Even as I experience its effects, and do not doubt the existence of this condition, what escapes me is this: Someone I care for is a person of above-average intelligence, who has no trouble knowing when he has been offended, and who himself can be offended quite easily. Yet this same person, having been told many times over that a particular action or behavior is inconsiderate, inappropriate, and generally detrimental to the relationship, and having been asked numerous times either to not repeat it, or to change to a specific acceptable form of action, continues to do the exact same thing as before.

Even if he is not able to understand empathetically the hurt or annoyance or anger his actions inspire, it does seems that, if he desires to maintain the relationship (and I believe he does), he is certainly capable of understanding intellectually the benefits of complying with a request to refrain from certain things, or to do things in a way that is generally considered socially acceptable.

Is this an unreasonable expectation to have of a highly intelligent person? Or perhaps it has nothing to do with intellect?

I have read in this community of behaviors that can be considered a "cry for help." Is this one of them?

I too am seeking enlightment here because there must be a better way to break down this wall than by continually butting one's head against it.

Mlashtok
02:56:02 Tue
Aug 17 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Lainey,

The intellect totally doesn't cut it in situations like this. I'm very smart intellectually, and I used to abuse someone in a relationship incessantly just like your person, despite their urging and urging me to stop, but it just didn't get through to me. Emotionally I was not ready, and when the pain did get through to me some time later I became severely depressed and suicidal. After this emotional experience I changed my ways and finally stopped the abuse... I FELT that I just couldn't continue to be cruel anymore. And the person I stopped abusing, a family member of mine, is doing better because I stopped. So if someone's going to change their behavior, it has to come through an emotional change within that person, whether a painful development or a catharsis.

Matt

CoolBlonde
04:22:42 Tue
Aug 17 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

I agree with Matt that intellect and logic fly out the window when we become very emotional, since then all we know of is survival and defending ourselves. Later of course we regret flying off the handle, but by that time, it's too late to take it back, so the intense shame and self hatred kicks in, and then we are too busy fighting with ourselves to make any really constructive efforts to repair the relationship, and so on.... It's just an endless cycle.

TcBrown
16:21:53 Tue
Aug 17 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Lainey, I'm basically affirming what has been offered by others on the points you raise, but here it goes. People with NPD are very often well above average. I have a high IQ but my emotional IQ, even though it has improved dramatically in recent years, is still no where near where it probably should be. (Time out for an advertisement from Gerald G. Jampolsky and the good folks at Attitudinal Healing: This is an example of the ego judging itself and it works against the principles of healing and integrating the soul and ego. Thank you and now back to the message from our member).

A person with NPD does not view the world or in specific instance does not view a relationship in the same paradigm that you are describing. A person with this disorder is in emotional arrest which has left them needing to meet their primitive needs. A child does not have the ability to think through the causes and effects of everything there behavior may bring about and to a large degree you are dealing with the deep, primitive, often frozen emotions that are similiar in nature to those of a child.

A person with NPD is first and foremost looking out for themselves. They are not there to see how their behavior is effecting others. If they do allow themselves to see some of that they will most always avoid those feelings or act out in a way that prevents them from having to directly face intense pain.

melaniemac
16:47:18 Tue
Aug 17 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

One of my biggest problems with my ex is that he would go out of town weekend after weekend. I would ask him where he was planning on staying. He was never where he said he was going to be. I bought him a new cell phone so that at least I could reach him somehow. Again, it was never on or it just rang and rang.

Every weekend we would have the same discussion how if I could just get a hold of him it would alleviate the issues of trust that I had. He would promise not to do it again. To let me know where he was going to be. I even told him, call me if it three o'clock in the morning and you can't get to where you said you were going, I don't care.

Well, that behaviour never changed and eventually just got worse and worse. That is only one example. There were other things like that he would do, even though he I had told him several times how upsetting that particular behaviour or action was to me.

And yes, I believe he is a very intelligent guy also. Don't know his IQ, but I lived with him for seven years and have a pretty good idea as to his intelligence level. He never thought he was though.

Just my two cents.

Take care of yourself. Do what you need to do for you. The wall won't come down until your friend is ready for it to come down.

Mel

melaniemac
17:07:34 Wed
Aug 18 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

I guess my whole point is that yes, it is common courtesy, but more importantly, with two small children, how would I reach him if something awful had happened? His response was "what could I do about it?". Well, I thought that was part of being the second half of a parenting team. You deal with stuff TOGETHER. Isn't that the whole point of getting married? Yes, everyone needs time to themselves. I never argued that but why can't I know where you are? What are you hiding? And as it turned out, sure enough, he was hiding A LOT! I'm not implying you are. That's just my scenario. He always assumed it was because I was trying to control him. And he probably did have a valid point to a degree.

In our case I just got really sick of being left at home with two toddlers all the time (they were 15 1/2 months apart!) while he was in the bar every weekend playing in his rock band and then doing whatever the hell he wanted for the rest of the time. And I never knew what that was, who he was with or where he was.

My idea of marraige is a partnership, we are equals. A team. I wouldn't tell a friend I was going to be there at 7 and not show up until 10 without at least a simple phone call letting them know I just couldn't make it on time. That is just not acceptable. Why would I take advantage of my partner like that?

OK, I think I'm rambling and obviously still have some strong feelings attached to this issue.

Thanks,

Mel

laineyblainey
01:21:20 Thu
Aug 19 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

*Sigh* O.k., sounds like you�re all in agreement that I can�t play the role of the PD fairy who can swoop down, wave her magic wand over the heads of the chosen and, Voila!, lift the fog. Thanks to each of you for addressing this. It helps to know from you all that these kinds of things are not so unusual, even if there isn�t much (or anything) an �outsider� can do to change it.

As I continue reading through the various threads, seeing glimpses of your lives revealed, I am ever more grateful to have found this site. After being exposed to SV�s material a couple years ago, I pretty much gave up hope and settled into �complaisant� mode: enjoy what I could and endure the rest. It is heartening to see a group of folks trying to help yourselves and others even as you endure your own trials by fire. My hope is renewed.

To Mel: Your frustration is completely understandable. If I had never crossed paths with someone who compelled me to seek a source of understanding deeper than �Dear Abbey� can address, such things would sound totally outrageous. (Well, actually some of it did sound like the more familiar signs of hiding adultery). Even if we can never really accept certain behaviors as �okay� at least now we have a different perspective from which to view them. As Tony so gently reminded us:

Quote: TcBrown

A person with NPD does not view the world or in specific instance does not view a relationship in the same paradigm that you are describing...
...A person with NPD is first and foremost looking out for themselves. They are not there to see how their behavior is effecting others.

To Mel and Deckhands: Where you touch on resentment against �checking in� and the perfectly logical reasons why we are expected to do so, especially when it�s as easy as taking 10 seconds to dial a phone number...whoa! I suddenly feel my own chain being rattled!

Most people who know me would likely say I�m fairly easy-going, dependable, responsible, etc. But I have long known there is a little monster living somewhere inside. It sleeps most of the time. When it wakes, it feels like a fire-breathing dragon trying to claw its way out. I agree that it is about control, whether direct or indirect, real or perceived. And, as Deckhands said, the accompanying emotion does not line up with the rational, logical process.

I have experienced it in a range of situations.

* Resentment at being pulled over by the policeman for a traffic violation.

* Obstinance about being made to do something by someone who has not been internalized as a proper authority. Something on the order of, �neener neener neener. You�re not the boss of me and you can�t make me. So there!� :nahnah:

And the infamous...
* causing someone needless worry by not bothering to call and reassure them.

Like Deckhands, I find this last especially inexplicable... particularly as have been a grown-up person (or used to think so) for an incredibly long time. This happened about a year ago, yet I could still recall and describe every step of the process, nearly every thought that went through my head, the sleepless night I spent trying to convince myself it was no big deal, and finally becoming so worked up that I called the injured party in the wee hours of the night to apologize. I still can not imagine what possessed me to put either myself or anyone else through hell over what should have been a simple 30-second phone call. I pray it never happens again.

Funny part is...when my friend does the not-calling thing (as long as I'm not sitting someplace public waiting for him)...I sometimes sort of understand... Yeah, I know: Neener neener neener.

Lainey

Mlashtok
02:44:20 Thu
Aug 19 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Lainey,

I think I and many others here feel you on the "having an inner demon" thing. Mine is quite ferocious :wink:

He must look something like this....

:gloat:

Matt

gailabelle
04:15:45 Thu
Aug 19 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

IMHO It is the simple, repeated, easy to have avoided, inconsiderate, behaviors that are the most frustrating to understand. Now, I think my husband gives himself some sort of imaginary award everytime he successfuly gets a rise of any kind out of me and then as soon as he does he retreats.
The more upset or confused I get the bigger his reward to himself, somehow. Some sort of power trip control thing perhaps. Basically he begs for an emotional response by purposefully upseting me then he retreats to avoid any possible verbal or emotional communication. To him, perhaps he is only defending himself and crying for help. But to me, it is definately a head banging on the wall over and over and over experience. It is like I am doll he can take out and play with when he wants to wind me up and put me away. He seems to just want my attention to be there for him to ignore. The cycle repeats........repeatedly.......over and over and over. :beatingdeadhorse:

gailabelle
18:56:36 Thu
Aug 19 2004

Re: Is it better to know if you have NPD.

Compartmentalizing perhaps humm, that is interesting.
This behavior is definately also reserved for just me. To everyone else he seems oh so charming. I find it extremely hard to believe he was not displaying some unusual behaviors as a child. Perhaps he did but no help was available. I don't know but I think about it a lot. I do know he set a really big fire that evidently burned down acres. I have mentioned a few minor odd things to my mother-in-law and the normal comment I get is "I don't choose to beleive that" which to me is just like calling me a liar. And my father in law just walks away when I try to talk to him. Denial perhaps. I stumbled upon one incident of possible molestation at camp. I know I struck a major nerve when I asked him if he had a bad experience. He turned pale as a sheet and was extremely nervous for days. I have never seen such a sudden drain of color in my life but he claims not to remember much and refuses to talk about it. I am "forbidden" from mentioning it again. Since he definately copes by pretending all bad things never happened I think he may have learned this behavior as a result of how this molestation incident was handled. I want to talk to his family so they will be here for him when I am gone but I am not sure that would be a good idea. Besides, they've had 20 years to tell me and have never mentioned anything was amiss is his childhood. He is a grown man over 50 and since he has chosen to ignore it this long I suspect he will continue. However, he is more depressed year after year and as I have learned to use boundries and he gets less and less emotional responses from me he gets more and more depressed. I would help if I could without being his doormat but I am all out of ideas. Any suggestions are appreciated. It soulds like your daughter is doing better, boundries definately help. I did not really appreciate my parents until I had children of my own.
Once I explained to my husband that he treated his family with no common courtesy and worse than strangers on the street and that just like he would not go out into the street and yell and holler at people for no good reason he could not come in our home and act like that either. Since then I refused to acknowledge anything not spoken in a decent way. This stopped the yelling but he then punished me covertly by destroying some of my things. Don't let your daugher trigger your insecurities and if she does don't let her know it. I have found being very unemotional, and matter of fact, about his bad behavior being unacceptable, has worked best for me to help stop the worst of it.
Matt- I think your demon is too cute to be ferocious. He sort of looks like the grinch. I'm sure he has a big heart in there too.

Is it better to know if you have NPD.
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