"Out beyond ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing there is a field. I'll meet you there." ----- Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi-Rumi, 13th century Sufi poet.

"Have faith that people do their best. I don't know anyone who would eat with pigs out of a trough in a muddy barnyard if he knew that a well-prepared meal was on the table in a clean house - do you?" Greg Baer

"The Secret in healing Narcissism is not to heal it at all, but to listen to it. Narcissism is a signal that the soul is not being loved sufficiently. The greater the Narcissism, the less love being given." ~ Thomas Moore, 'Care of the Soul'.

Q. Is it really possible to heal NPD?

A. Anything is possible. You do not have to be a negative statistic on a probablity curve of people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Heal NPD :: Open Topic :: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain
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Steely
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 08:58:34 FriMay 6 2005 )

The thing is, anger has a function. Sometimes it's justified. Dealing with it is what's so hard. Just trying to express anger makes me go into convulsions cause a huge conflict rises up in me - this is bad, I 'shouldn't' feel this so let me shove it down there stuff force push oh no it's coming back up and now I'm haemorraghing all over the show!

Like Tc said, much better if you can work it out in SPECIFIC situations with SPECIFIC issues with a SPECIFIC person without becoming a total tw*t in the process...

Also, I'm totally with Inverted about anger and passivity. It can keep you paralysed, numbed and out of touch with your other feelings. Stunted, trapped, frustrated - and there goes the whole cycle all over again.:ohwell:

  
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grumpinandgrouchin
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 14:19:04 FriMay 6 2005 )

I just want to say I've never felt safe or comfortable showing my anger. Most of my life I've repressed it as much as I have any other emotion. I wouldn't say I feel my anger is justified because that suggests I have a hell of a lot more confidence in myself than I feel I do. Often times I don't feel aware that I'm showing the world anger until someone asks what f--k I'm so angry about.

  
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 03:44:46 SatMay 7 2005 )

Tony thanks for this post. I related to it pretty directly. I definitely see the thing about being arrested at a certain developmental stage and having a constricted worldview based on the need to handle overwhelming pain. That so much of a better definition than the DSM's one.http://250431.myshoutbox.com/go/?u=http://www.healnpd.org/forum/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=2;gtid=18
Quiz

Steely I related to your points also. Especially about the true self wanting to live versus the mother/father self, or false self, that rejects the true self in its desire to be alive, real, vulnerable, etc. I've heard this point elsewhere but probably not so directly before. You're right on about this stuff, and it just makes me think even more abotu what a challenge it is to deal with. But still, Thanks.

Bye guys,

Matt



---
You know, of course, where this other world lies hidden. It is the world of your own soul that you seek. Only within yourself exists that other reality for which you long. I can give you nothing that has not already its being within yourself... All I can give you is the impulse, the key. I can help you to make your own world visible. That is all.
- Herman Hesse, Steppenwolf
 
 
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 08:52:59 SatMay 7 2005 )

I feel like I was pulled into the horrifying pain of someone so stunted and experienced a glimpse of what that world is like up close. Comparing it to what I've known before and partially recovered myself to now, it is a dark lonely place indeed IMO. Living life without knowing and giving and receiving love is not really living at all for me. As far as I am concerned it is more like dying a slow painful death instead.
Healing hurts in many ways but the rewards are worth the temporary pain because it stops the old pains from reoccuring.
It is extremely hard to recover from emotional pain and trauma and it takes a stern determination to conciously reprogram or teach or parent or nuture ourselves to a healthier mindset. I don't know if it should be called a disorder or not but I do believe it is not a normal state of being for most people. I also think it is possible to change and grow when one recognizes what is wrong and takes steps to try to heal.
I have seen the scared boy in my h and often view him as child-like in many ways other than just emotional development. He clearly wants me to be his parent on some level and it is a role that I've resisted despite his pranks. I think perhaps he is stuck at exactly the age he was when he was molested. And being stuck in the sixties was one of the first symptoms I noticed and could not understand. At first I used to think he was teasing or something when he seemed oblivious to current events, new music, anything really beyond that point in is life. I know we are all influenced by things that are going on when we come of age or become adults and those things will always be a part of us, but most of us can add new things to the repretroire more easlily than he seems to be able to do. From my perspective he appears frozen inside himself somehow and the ice layer surrounding him just gets thicker and thicker. It is really very sad to observe.
When our parents fail I think that responsiblity then falls on us as individuals to grow ourselves up the best way we can and by continuing to grow as we learn new things along the way. It is not realistic to expect others to step into that role, it is not even possible IMO and efforts at it only seemed to make things worse for me. I know it is not a concious choice to be so affected but I also think it is a concious choice to chose not to attempt to change when one becomes aware of how they hurt themselves or others. For ex. I have taught my h what hurts me and when he repeatedly does those things then it does seem like a very concious choice to me. I recognize that he may not realize why he makes the same bad choices over and over but at the same time I think on some level he does know that he does it to prevent or avoid intimacy, or to get a reaction out of me and / or to get my attention, and / or to get parental type attention.
I don't really buy the bull that it is uncurable or uncorrectable if one choses to work at it. And even though one may feel disconnected from themselves, I do not think it is a medical condition. I have had these feelings and I have changed so I think it is possible for others to as well. I am sure it is harder when the habits are older and more ingrained but I do not think it is impossible by any means and I do think it starts with a simple choice to try and to keep trying.

  
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 08:56:31 SatMay 7 2005 )

oops I'm the beloved guest... that forgot to log in again. :buttkick: :flush:



---
Fear is that little darkroom where negatives are developed.--Michael Pritchard
 
 
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TcBrown
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 15:13:04 SatMay 7 2005 )

There is an interesting connection between what we know as NPD and Avoidant Personality Disorder. They share many of the same types of traits. One of the traits of Avoidant PD is the person is living in the past and often dresses as though they are still living in the era in which they were wounded. I think we NPDers are often living in the past whether we display it in our physical appearance, or just have never been able to develop the emotional skills needed to move on while still trying to function in today's world. I know this is true of me. My dress tends to be very casusal, more of what might be expected of someone in their teens or early 20's rather than someone who is 38. So I think its likely Belle's husband is emotionally frozen in the time where he was abused. This actually makes sense to the degree that anything with this kind of trauma makes sense on an intellectual level- which often isn't much.

Children learn to give and receive love, how to develop healthy attachments and bonds with others, basic life skills , how to process emotions through the practical experience of receiving these things from our parents. Its like Greg Baer suggests that we cannot give what we don't have. A person craves unconditional love and acceptance more than anything else in the world, without it there is a very real part of them which is missing. You do not learn this through osmoses, it has to be experienced. If you don't receive this in the natural developmental stage in childhood it is going to affect everything about your life unless and until you find a way to go back and nurture the child within and show him that level of unconditional love. Levine writes, "By converting the fear of my pain to the compassion for the pain, by moving from the personal to the universal, an experience that can diminish one expands to a sense of participation in the greater family." In describing his own healing the child within himself Levine writes, "Indeed, that child might have stayed submerged in a kind of emacipated self-pity if I had not cared so much for him, nurtured him, and begun to slowly unwrap his cocoon. Releasing a child's grief from its binding is a work of self-mercy so tender and subtle it purifies the air you and your loved ones breathe."

My child within still feels trapped in a very confusing period of time when I was excluded from parts of my family. My Mother decided to abandon me because she did not approve of the things my Father was doing with my sister and myself. My older siblings resented my Father and as a result resented my sister and I as well. My Father was lost in his own tightly defined world of pain and I now believe he never received the emotional developmental skills needed to pass along to his children. I was told I was loved repeatedly, yet I learned love meant anger, abandonment, neglect, and other hurtful things. In other words I learned that love hurt and that is the definition of my love that stayed with me until I began to go back and nurture my inner child, to allow it to experience unconditional love. This process is continuing, as love still hurts at some deep level in my heart. I have begun to experience what I have long craved and the wound is not as tender in some ways, but definitely not healed. I don't blame my parents for this or think of myself as a victim because I see they simply were doing the best they could given what was given to them to work with in their life. They had not experienced unconditional love and thus they did not have this to pass along to their children. Feelings of justified anger, resentment, etc. only serve to make me feel worse instead of better.

I began to understand a long time ago there is a part of me that wanted to make other people feel my pain, and in the process I wanted to hurt other people. This came from living in a world defined by my pain, and was a cry for help which few heard. Those few who did hear it seemed to have no idea of how to respond. I think a person with this stunted emotional development does not understand what it means to have feelings, or to truly experience pain, and so they try to hurt other people because they truly lack an understanding of what it means for another person to experience pain. I think if someone tells us a certain behavior is upsetting or hurtful we continue doing it in hopes that maybe they'll see that the reason we are doing this is because we are suffering, and crying out for help.

Tony





---
Have faith that people do their best. I don't know anyone who would eat with pigs out of a trough in muddy barnyard if he knew that a well-prepared meal was on the table in a clean house - do you? Greg Baer.
 
 
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jimmie
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 17:23:57 SatMay 7 2005 )

The difficulty I have experienced is along the lines of how do I learn to reparent myself? Exactly where do these skills to teach myself about life come from once they have been withheld in what is normal development? I'd probably say that its not reasonable to expect others to fill the role of a parent, but I don't believe we go out in a conscious way seeking this. Unconsciously, without a doubt, consciously I don't believe at all. A catch-22 here is ever trusting ourselves or someone else to be that parent because of the painful experience with our first go around in life.

  
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 18:22:25 SunMay 8 2005 )

I agree to a point that anger has its place that is healthy. Its just I've never been able to find where that place is, or how to express it without being destructive to myself or others. If anyone has suggestions I'd love to hear them.

  
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Steely
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 20:41:33 SunMay 8 2005 )

I think healthy anger is a situtaions where someone is really taking the proverbial. Like saying "I'm your friend, so now I'm gonna flirt outrageously with your partner" or "I'm now going to steal your possessions right in front of your face" or "I'm lying to you and you know that but I'm gonna continue treating you like an idiot." I've experienced all of these things and been simply unable to react. Some poor slob later on usually received the entire blast later on, over something totally unrelated. I've often found myself in situations where I was in my right, yet I've let other people walk all over me TO MY CONSIDERABLE COST because I couldn't articulate myself. I've become pretty blase about things now unfortunately. "Want my home?take it. My most valuable keepsake?Take it. My family? My friends? I'm no one anyway, so just take 'em. Here, I'll make it easy for you - I'll just leave."

People think I don't care about anything, which is why I behave like this. Truth is, I care. I'm just used to losing everything i care about. It's what i mean about passivity. I'm so bummed out about everything I'm just not inclined to even try anymore. I guess the only thing anyone can do is try to stay fair i.e. not yelling at someone for something someone else did to you, not using the whole "nothing's wrong" spiel when something IS wrong, and - hardest of all for me personally - not using smokescreens i.e. talking about something else than what's really bothering me (the proxy). If only I could actually achieve any of these things in MY lifetime in an actual human relationship...:rage:

Steely

  
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TcBrown
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Re: When the whole world shrinks to the size of your pain ( 11:49:15 MonMay 9 2005 )

I cannot begin to count the number of poor slobs who caught the blast of my anger because of something someone else did. :crazy: Most of the time I wasn't even aware that I was angry. I was walking around in this, "I don't feel pain," daze which defined so much of my early life. Hey, just ask my Mother, I seemed to be unaffected by what was going on around me. :nshowingrestraint: According to my Dad the only person really harmed by the divorce and the death of my sister was him.

Anger is an outlease for pain. When we feel unworthy, as though we don't matter in this world, it hurts like nothing I've seen a proper word to describe. Most of us who feel this don't feel comfortable walking up to a stranger or even a friend and saying I'm feeling totally unworthy as a human being so please hold me as I cry on your shoulder. Its much safer to explode over little things or nothing at all and leave it to others to figure out what the f--k just happened here.

I think we feel justifed in our anger because deep inside we know that we are justified in feeling the pain of whatever is making us feel unworthy. We need to move beyond the anger and allow ourselves to feel the pain. If we see that anger is not what we really feel, and that its purpose only goes so far, we can begin to ask this demon to step aside and take a look at the wound it is covering. Its not an easy process but definitely a rewarding one.



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Have faith that people do their best. I don't know anyone who would eat with pigs out of a trough in muddy barnyard if he knew that a well-prepared meal was on the table in a clean house - do you? Greg Baer.
 
 
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