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Healing becomes possible when all parties in a relationship come to see each other as co-creators of the relationship rather then attacker, and victim.
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The time is now 22:25:41 Wed Jun 19 2013
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6 human beings online in the last 15 minutes - 0 Friend(s) of Narcissus, 0 covert NPDers and 6 Beloved and cherished GUEST(s) of Narcissus. (Most ever was 57 at 01:37:31 Fri Sep 11 2009)
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athenathinks
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Re: What if it turns out they are human after all? ( 18:06:53 FriMay 23 2003 ) | |
I do not subscribe to the notion that NPD sufferers aren't human. To promote that notion would reduce folks with psychosis, autism, alzheimers, Post-traumatic stress disorder, brain injury, road rage, or just a really really bad day to inhuman status, too.
The ACTIONS of ANY of these people, at specific time/circumstance, can be inexplicable and can seem or even be inhuman - but the fact remains that they are human beings first - and perpetrators of behavior, both good and bad, second.
In no way does the fact of one's humanity require that others be supportive, receptive or tolerant irrespective of their behavior. However, as with persons who are known to be disabled by their issues, whether organic or externally imposed, as in the case of PSTD, preservation of our own humanity depends upon our ability to remain appropriately objective and understanding, without sacrificing our selves, our safety or our dignity.
The conventional psychiatric wisdom supports the notion that NPD and other personality disorders are often the result of traumatic and/or confusing experiences that occur at critical developmental stages of childhood, leading to a disruption in the normal pattern of object/self separation. Some literature even suggests that personality disorders are themselves closely realated to PSTD (the Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Sourcebook, for one).
Not for one moment would most of us condemn the War Veteran or a 9-11 survivor, even though their behavior can be sometimes bizarre, unpredictable or violent - nor would we ever dream to label them "inhuman". Instead, we would remember distinctly the experiences that they have had - and although we may feel that they should be avoided, jailed, hospitalized or similar based on their behavior, we do not define them by their behavior. We retain at least a glimmer of pity and hope for them, even when they harm others, because we clearly understand how their experiences have shaped them. Most of all, we understand that it is NOT A CHOICE.
Sufferers of personality disorders may have experienced traumas so early in childhood as to have no clear memory of actual events, but the impact remains. In other cases, trauma memory is clear and vivid. In some instances, the trauma may not have been "real", but some seemingly innocuous events viewed through the eyes of small child , interpreted into the "magical" language of children, and paired with a more fragile temperament and/or less-than-understanding adults may leave terrible scarring just the same.
I see this daily in my husband, whose childhood experiences include: Abandonment by father, cold, self-absorbed mother too depressed to even get welfare or food stamps, living in a shack in the woods of Maine with no heat, running water, or electricity, unable to attend school, malnourished - eating only onions for several weeks, at one point. And that's just the sketchy early-years summary. It gets "better".
For him, it is a matter or"pre-emptive strike" - "I'll abandon you before you abondon me", "If you get too close, I'll give you a reason to withdraw" - I'll hurt you so you won't love me" - "BUT PLEASE PROVE THAT YOU DO LOVE ME".
Is he human? Absolutely. Human enough to be damaged by those experiences in some respect, and human enough to become relatively succesful in some areas of life despite them. He is an intelligent, talented and accomplished man - and sometimes very loving, until it gets frightening for him. He does not tell me this, but I'm sharp enough to see it.
There is a nursery ryhme that sums it up well (adapted to sex):
There was a little girl (boy)
with a perfect little curl
in the middle of h/er forehead
When s/he was good
s/he was very, very good
but when s/he was bad
she was horrid.
Human? All too. At least in this case.
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Re: What if it turns out they are human after all? ( 13:48:39 SunMay 25 2003 ) | |
Only the most severly disturbed people take away the humanness of those experiencing NPD. It says as much, maybe more about the wannabe victims who dismiss the human qualities of those with the disorder as it does those whom they are attacking. You have to be very sick to engage in the Doo doo that is going on in the victims community. Clearly why they are doing this is to avoid their own issues. Any alleged professional who supports this sh-t should have their diploma used for toliet paper. I include everyone in this from mental health workers straight down into the sewer with the laughable Sam Vaknin. It is time for accountability and personal responsibility among professionals who have fallen into this trap. BTW, my father, husband and at least one son are NPD and I find efforts to say they are not human, are evil, etc to be very offensive. 
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 Re: What if it turns out they are human after all? ( 00:31:31 TueJun 10 2003 ) | |
That people from here some with NPD visit sites where people 'sound off' about Ns in their lives is understandable, but please remember they are not talking to Ns they are talking about them.
To have a safe place to vent your anger and to explain feelings is part of healing after all the lies, games and dangerous behaviour endured by being close to an N. We who have been close have to have a place to recover, that does not mean what we say is for the eyes of the NPD sufferers, it is for our supporters.
I still love my ex, I wish him well, but since he is addicted to drugs which adversely affect his thinking, has made friends with people who he can easily fool and who have in turn stolen most of his expensive belongings, and lost his job, he seems to be benefiting not a jot from my love at a distance like he did when I was near. I kept him from behaving badly, we talked a lot and planned to do thing properly with respect, but he also threatened me and behaved like a maniac.
Any way please remember when you visit support sites for us who've been in the fire, we are burnt and in pain and have to have a place to sound off and say what we like to understand what we've been through. But most who I've correspended with do not hate NPD sufferers, that's the good thing.
Whehn you treat people badly though they will say bad things about you, that's a fact.
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athenathinks
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Re: What if it turns out they are human after all? ( 19:55:07 TueJun 10 2003 ) | |
I must say, in guest's defense, there was no reference to "evil" in h/er post.
I also think that Guest was simply defending the right of "victims" to have their own, separate forum for venting their anger and hurt, which - although I do not find those sites useful to me as a "victim" - I support. I don't think that Guest was implying that s/he felt uncomfortable about an NPD sufferer reading those posts, just delivering a reminder about where that vitriol comes from.
Nowhere did I see in h/er post the idea that NPD sufferers are not human or cannot heal.
I think also that the golden rule is, in some cases at least, in application on those boards - those who feel they have been hurt are saying hurtful things...and here, in turn, the defensiveness and mud-slinging occur, too. Sometimes the golden rule gets tarnished, apparently - then it starts to resemble eye-for-eye.
I think it IS important for NPD sufferes to face their own hurts that lead to their behavior - and for NPD sufferers to acknowledge the hurts that they cause. I also think that the same holds true for "victims" as well - they need to not only acknowledge their own suffering but that of the NPD sufferer, as well.
This I did not see in Guest's post - I wish I had, as I think the defensiveness would not be so great if Guest had put that forth with a little conviction.
Those boards are not functional for me. That is without question. But I do think that others have a right to them, regardless of my judgement. I don't have to visit, post or play - so i don't anymore.
This kind of reminds me of defending NPD sufferers while visiting those sites...and it also reminds me of the dance I do at home with my husband so frequently. I hurt, therefore I am...no you're not, I am...
I think learning to co-exist as hurt and flawed humans is a hard thing, requiring effort and understanding from both parties.
Maybe we should have a personal rule/guideline that if one busts the other, there must be included an acknowledgement of whatever tidbit of rightness is in the bustee's position...as there almost unfailingly is something, however small or large, right about it.
Leastways that's how I see it.
Peace to all - Athena
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Re: What if it turns out they are human after all? ( 20:02:45 TueJun 10 2003 ) | |
The thing which is bad about the support forums for the so-called victims of narcissists is that
1) virtually none of these people have had a professional diagnosis and for those diagnosed by a professional, most are sight unseen after having listened to descriptions for a therapy hour or two...
2) ALL of the symptoms listed for NPD can also be fully explained by a TREATABLE diagnosis of BiPolar Disorder ....
3) Many of the symptoms can be due to ADD/ADHD, by the less disabling spectrum of Autism, by PTSD (cumulative or acute) and other disorders as well...
Plus there is the FACT that not all cases of NPD are forever and ever. Many cases can and do heal eventually (like SamVak's mother and like me).
A lot of people say that Sam is too negative and that his negativity is reflected in his group at the suite, but I say that Sam is really open to healing, he just doesn't wish to hold out false hopes. The quote about "how to heal" is a very old quote of his -- at least 4 years old.
Sam virtually leaves the Suite101 group alone and the reason it sometimes becomes so very nasty and vicious, with a lynch mentality is due to the people who elevate themselves at various times as tin gods. It is, all in all, a very codependent thing at times, with certain old timers setting themselves up as saviors of the short-timers. Hatred has once, early last year, ended with a horrible flame war that was virtually all aimed at just one woman and a very few people who stood up for that one woman. Her "point of view" was judged and found wanting and when she refused to be bullied, she was labled NPD and insantiy ensued.
The suite isn't the only place that has taken to labeling this person or that an "N", nor the only place to ban such labeled people. Most often they are men, even men who arrive in search of support for their own travails and broken dreams. Men, because they are different, are more liable to end up labeled Ns.
For those self-labeled or newly diagnosed Ns who show up seeking input, advice or ideas, sometimes they are welcomed into the fold, sometimes laughed at and put down, sometimes bitterly attacked, even if the narcissist attacks no one and is not patently offensive.
Personally, I believe it is the forum owner's job to maintain a certain degree of presence on the board and to speak up when an injustice is being done, but the suite suffers from the fact that it is a Roman circus, an arena , and Christians set upon by Tigers can be an amusing diversion to endless boring days.
In the old days, SamVak acknowledged that he was a "token Narcissist" and both expected to be attacked as such, even if he didn't always handle it well. I am uncertain whether it is better or worse now that he keeps himself out of the fray, crouching down out of reach... If he chooses to keep hiding under the bed, I would think he should at least set an example at how to treat people kindly and even-handledly -- which he is more than capable of doing.
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Re: What if it turns out they are human after all? ( 18:00:04 ThuJun 19 2003 ) | |
The calling of people who loved and were hurt by people with NPD is described a lot here with the words "So-called and wannabe victims".
Well these people are truly hurting. Isn't a characteristic of an NPD sufferer is someone who lacks empathy?
If you can't comprehend why and what made these people who love you hurt, forget it, there's no hope...but if you can stop being on the defensive and look to yourself and others for guidance, surely this will open the pathway to healing for you?
Forget the other boards, they have their purpose, you have yours. I wish you all the best. I wish my partner would try to find healing. But until then I guess he'll just keep pushing me to the ground & running off with other girls.
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