Lizardfolk PC Race
http://bb.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=10&thread=123
Powered By BbBoard - http://bb.bbboy.net

Kkat
01:47:49 Thu
Aug 7 2003
Lizardfolk PC Race
Due to the use of Lizardfolk in previous games, and the role they are playing in my current game, I have decided that it is time the Lizardfolk in my campaign world were accepted into the ranks of the Common Folk.

(In other words, they are becaming a PC race.
)


After much discussion with a couple of my players, and even more tinkering during the slow hours of work, I have come up with a preliminary writeup for the Lizardfolk PC race.

Notibly, this isn't exactly the Lizardfolk from the MM. It is modeled off of them, but ever since the Gnolls, I decided that when I turn a race PC, it doesn't have to exactly match the MM entry anymore.

I am concerned about balance. And balance with this race is even more tricky than with a normal one, because of the way I have done "subtypes".

They are to be a non-LA race (as PC races are meant to be. )


Lizardfolk

Racial Characteristics
  • +2 Con, -2 Cha
  • Medium Size. Lizardfolk gain no benefits or penalties due to size.
  • Speed 30
  • Lizardfolk have tough, scaly hides. They have +2 natural armor.
  • Lizardfolk gain a +4 racial bonus to Balance, Jump and Swim. Their tails give them a significant edge when performing these skills.
  • Lizardfolk gain a +2 racial bonus on Wilderness Lore (or Survival) checks.
  • Lizardfolk are naturally aquatic people and are adept at swimming underwater. They are able to hold their breath submerged for twice the normal time.
  • Lizardfolk possess natural claws and a dangerous bite. Taking the full attack option, a lizardfolk may to perform an attack with each claw and one with a bite. The lizardfolk gets the claw attacks at the lizardfolk’s highest base attack bonus, and the bite attack at the lizardfolk’s highest base attack bonus –5. The lizardfolk’s claws do 1d4 + Strength modifier for damage. The bite does 1d4 + ½ the lizardfolk’s Strength modifier for damage.
  • Lizardfolk require specially designed armor because of their physique and tail. Armor tailored to lizardfolk costs 50% more than normal and has an additional -1 penalty to appropriate skill checks. Lizardfolk armor crafted by lizardfolk do not suffer these penalties, but have an armor bonus of one less than normal armor of the same type. Chain shirts, regardless of the armor smith, do not suffer any of these penalties.
  • The distinctive coloration of a lizardfolk’s scales make it easy for the trained eye to distinguish one from another. Falsifying a lizardfolk’s body scales is extremely difficult. Lizardfolk gain a +2 racial bonus on Spot checks to see through lizardfolk disguises and a +2 racial bonus to Will saves against illusions of lizardfolk created by spellcasters of other races.
  • Lizardfolk seem as alien in mind as they are in physique to other races, and the feeling is mutual. Lizardfolk suffer a –2 racial penalty to Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks against members of other races. However, Lizardfolk gain a +3 racial bonus to Bluff rolls against members of other races.
  • Lizardfolk, being cold-blooded, suffer a –2 racial penalty to Dexterity and Initiative when in extremely cold environments.
  • Lizardfolk gain a bonus racial feat at first level. This feat must be selected from the Lizardfolk Feats. (Most Lizardfolk Feats may only be taken at first level. Using both this bonus feat and the feat normally gained at first level, a Lizardfolk character may possess two such Lizardfolk Feats.)
  • Favored Class: Druid or Psychic Warrior (chosen at character creation)

    --Kkat

  • Kkat
    01:49:53 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Lizard Feats


    Kruthian Lizard (Lizardfolk Feat)
    Your heritage is that of the lizardfolk of Kruth. The blood of ancient Red and Bronze Dragons flows through your veins.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: Unlike other lizardfolk, you do not suffer a –2 penalty to your Charisma attribute. You may choose either Sorcerer or Druid as your favored class.
    Special Kruthian lizardfolk taking the Dragon Disciple prestige class always choose between Red and Bronze Dragons for their Draconic heritage. This feat may only be taken at first level.

    Yuan Lizard (Lizardfolk Feat)
    You trace your lineage back to the cursed continent of Yuan and the jungle islands of the Yuan-ti. You possess a dangerous, acidic spittle.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: Once per round, you may elect to use one of your attacks to spit acid. This is a ranged touch attack and does 1d2 + your Constitution modifier in damage. The range for this attack is close (25 ft. plus 5 ft. per 2 character levels). You may do this a number of times a day equal to 3 + your Constitution modifier.
    Special If using the full attack option with your natural attacks, this attack replaces your Bite attack. This feat may only be taken at first level.

    Savage Lizard (Lizardfolk Feat)
    Your family line comes from the brutal Savage Lands. You are tougher and more resilient than other lizardfolk.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: You gain an additional +1 to your natural armor. This bonus increases to +2 at third level. At sixth level, it becomes a +3 additional bonus to your natural armor (for a total of +5).
    Special This feat may only be taken at first level.

    Sun Lizard (Lizardfolk Feat)
    Your ancestors hail from the Burning Lands. Your scales have chameleon properties.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: You gain a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks and a +4 racial bonus to Disguise checks to disguise yourself as another lizardfolk.
    Special This feat may only be taken at first level.

    Primordial Lizard (Lizardfolk Feat)
    Your blood ties are strong with the ancient lizardfolk who swam the seas and spread the lizardfolk to every continent.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: You have water breathing as an extraordinary ability.
    Special This feat may only be taken at first level.

    Fire Lizard (Lizardfolk Feat)
    Your family line has mingled with that of other pseudo-reptilian races such as Half-Dragons, Yuan-ti or Medusa. You are hot-blooded and possess mammalian characteristics.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: You gain a +2 racial bonus to Strength and Charisma, but a –2 racial penalty to Intelligence. You do not suffer Dexterity or Initiative penalties in cold environments. You can interbreed with other common folk. Being hot-blooded, pseudo-mammalian reptiles, Fire Lizards require three times the normal food consumption that others do.
    Special The Charisma bonus from Fire Lizard is added to the modified Charisma of the character. This feat may only be taken at first level.

    Combat Tail (Lizardfolk Feat)
    You have trained to become adept at using your tail in combat.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: When using your tail in combat and using the full attack option, you gain an extra attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack is performed with your tail. It is an unarmed attack and deals 1d4 damage plus 1.5x your Strength bonus for damage. This attack may also be used for trip attacks. When using your tail in combat, however, all attacks including the tail attack suffer a –2 penalty to attack rolls.
    Special: Unlike most lizardfolk feats, Combat Tail may be taken after first level.

    Lizard Multiattack (Lizardfolk Feat)
    You are adept at fighting with all your natural weapons.
    Prerequisites: Lizardfolk
    Benefit: When using the full attack option with your natural attacks, your make your bite attack at your highest base attack bonus penalty –2. Furthermore, if you have both the Lizard Multiattack and Combat Tail feats, when using your natural attacks with a full round action, you may make your two claw attacks at the lizardfolk’s highest base attack bonus, your bite attack at that bonus –2 and your tail attack at that bonus –2.
    Normal: When using the full attack option with natural attacks, a lizardfolk normally has a penalty of 5 to the bite attack. When using the full attack option with natural attacks and Combat Tail, but without Multiattack, the claw attacks and tail attack are all at the lizardfolk’s highest base attack bonus –2 and the bite is at the highest base attack bonus –7.
    Special: Unlike most lizardfolk feats, Lizard Multiattack may be taken after first level.

    --Kkat


    GiantInThePlayground
    01:53:53 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Without seeing how powerful the lizardfolk feats are, it's hard to say. If they amount to nothing more than say a Skill Focus, then I think it's probably fine. If they are doing things like adding +2 to natural armor, then it's proabably too strong.

    Interesting with the cold thing; I do a similar trick to lizardfolk PCs, though for them, if they take cold damage they are slowed for 1d4 rounds.

    Draco_Argentum
    02:02:22 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    I'd have to say that Savage Lizard is the best of the feats.

    Kkat
    02:04:04 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: Draco_Argentum at 02:02:22 Thu Aug 7 2003

    I'd have to say that Savage Lizard is the best of the feats.


    Savage Lizard and Fire Lizard, if taken together, allow you to effectively be the Lizardfolk as presented in the Monster Manual.

    --Kkat

    GiantInThePlayground
    02:04:15 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    OK, I find Kruthian Sun, Primordial, and the two combat ones at the end to be "probably OK." The yuan bugs me, but for no justifiable reason; it's probably OK too.

    The Fire Lizard one is the most overpowered: it turns the race into +2 Str, +2 Con, –2 Int, which is unbalanced right there, AND takes away one of their penalties. The Savage feat with the bonus to natural armor is going to end up way too high also; a (say) 2nd level lizardfolk in a chain shirt carrying a heavy shield with a 16 Dx will have a 24 AC; there are no CR 2 creatures that can even come close to hitting that regularly, and that's still only light armor.

    GiantInThePlayground
    02:05:55 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: Kkat at 02:04:04 Thu Aug 7 2003

    Quote: Draco_Argentum at 02:02:22 Thu Aug 7 2003

    I'd have to say that Savage Lizard is the best of the feats.


    Savage Lizard and Fire Lizard, if taken together, allow you to effectively be the Lizardfolk as presented in the Monster Manual.

    --Kkat


    Which is kind of a problem, because the MM lizardfolk has a level adjustment.

    Mr_Kami
    02:08:04 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    You don't have much flavor up yet, but I don't like the new stat adjustments, they at least need the +2 str, and the -2 int matches them better than a -2 cha IMHO.

    Kkat
    02:29:55 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: GiantInThePlayground at 02:05:55 Thu Aug 7 2003



    Which is kind of a problem, because the MM lizardfolk has a level adjustment.


    True. But the MM lizardfolk also has two racial HD and all the crud that comes with it.

    And in order to become the Fire/Savage combo, you have to spend your first character level feat. So this is MM lizardfolk minus the HD for the cost of a feat.

    Which isn't the same as the cost of a level, but probably more appropriate.

    --Kkat

    Kkat
    02:46:33 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: Mr_Kami at 02:08:04 Thu Aug 7 2003

    You don't have much flavor up yet, but I don't like the new stat adjustments, they at least need the +2 str, and the -2 int matches them better than a -2 cha IMHO.


    Stats were one of the hardest things to decide on.

    One of the reasons I went with this is that I already have two races in my campaign world with Strength bonus/Intelligence penalty stat setups. (The Half-Orcs, which are +2 Str/-2Int, and the Gnolls, which are +4 Str/-2Int.)

    Of the two stats the MM gives them bonuses to (Strength and Constitution), the most important flavor-wise seemed to be Constitution. This is a survival-driven race, somewhat primitive, "Masters of the Wild" style race. Heartiness, fortitude and resilience seemed more vital to them than strength did.

    That left me with choosing a negative. And honestly, Charisma fit the best. I didn't see any reason Lizardfolk should have to be dumb(er than others). But these are the only cold-blooded, reptilian PC race. All the other races at least share certain basic physical qualities... like hair. And not laying eggs. The other PC races would be naturally strange, almost alien to the Lizardfolk. And vs versa. Charisma is the purrfect stat for them to be weaker in.

    Notibly, I knew there would be those who wanted to play the "strong, stupid" Lizardfolk that the MM presents. And thus, with Fire Lizard, I created a subtype who possesses the Strength bonus and Intelligence penalty (and who doesn't suffer the Charisma penalty) that is associated with their MM presentation.

    --Kkat



    Kkat
    03:01:41 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: GiantInThePlayground at 02:04:15 Thu Aug 7 2003

    OK, I find Kruthian Sun, Primordial, and the two combat ones at the end to be "probably OK." The yuan bugs me, but for no justifiable reason; it's probably OK too.


    Thanks!

    Quote:

    The Fire Lizard one is the most overpowered: it turns the race into +2 Str, +2 Con, –2 Int, which is unbalanced right there, AND takes away one of their penalties.


    The stat bonuses are unbalanced. But not too much so. I am of the opinion that a -2 Int is worth about +3 elsewhere.

    This does take away one of their penalties. But then, that penalty is really situational. I don't think the Lizardfolk need that penalty to be balanced. Rather, it is there because I felt there should be some mechanic that deals with the fact they are cold-blooded.

    Quote:

    The Savage feat with the bonus to natural armor is going to end up way too high also; a (say) 2nd level lizardfolk in a chain shirt carrying a heavy shield with a 16 Dx will have a 24 AC; there are no CR 2 creatures that can even come close to hitting that regularly, and that's still only light armor.


    I wanted the race to be able to have the natural armor in the MM... but it was suggested to me that I should scale it or otherwise nerf it a little for balance. I agree that not every Lizardfolk PC needs +5 natural armor, but I wanted to make it an option at the cost of missing out on other options. By making it cost a feat, I hope to do that.

    A am a bit concerned with the power of that, however. What would you suggest? Is it possible to still get the +5 total with Savage Lizard and still make it more balanced? Say, a greater penalty for worn armor?

    --Kkat

    clikml
    03:54:50 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    I am so totally baffled that you can find those feats and that race to be balanced... and the Sacred Exorcist is overpowered.

    The probelmatic feats are well, problematic. Getting stats for a feat is not balanced... especailly when these are listed as bonus feats one of which you get for free. I concur with Giant that the feats should be more like skill focus feats if you want any semblance of balance.

    Even without the feats *at all* the race is on the strong side. Compare to a Kobold (3e, not 3.5). It gets better natural armor, better overall stats (+2 Con/-2 Cha vs -4 Str/+2 Dex), same movement, and at least as many skill bonuses, better natural weapons, and a few other little things. Kobold's only edge is that they get darkvision. Both have minor penalties (cold vs. light).

    +5 Natural Armor is simply too good for a level 1 character. Exception possibly if they aren't allowed to wear *any* armor (shields still ok). They'll be better as monks than most, and have an edge as a wizard, but monks suck anyway, and a wizard isn't too unfair with +5 natural armor.

    If you make them +1 ECL then you could justify two racial feats (one racial bonus, and another allowed at 1st level if desired).

    The distinctive coloration stuff is kind of messy and doesn't really add much. It's even less likely to come into play than the "orc blood" ability of half-orcs, and as such I'd just drop it. The social skill mods seem sufficient for setting Lizardfolk apart from the norm... though I question how they are done. As it stands, Lizardfolk can out-bluff other races, and in turn are easily bluffed by other races. I think you might want to impose a penalty for others to bluff them instead.

    So +1 ECL if you give the racial bonus feats.
    +0 ECL if you ignore the racial bonus feats totally (and tis on the strong side of +0).

    Draco_Argentum
    04:40:35 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    For a start lets stick with 3.0 core races as a balence check.

    I feel like starting with the dwarf.

    Stat mods: same

    Size: same

    speed: same

    skill bonuses/penalties:

    Dwarf gets stone cunning with the attendent auto search. +2 on appraise and craft for stone/metal. Stone cunning is the major thing here the rest is mainly flavour.

    Lizardmen get +4 to balence, swim and jump. +2 anti-disguise spot checks. (nothing impressive so far.) The social skills I'll call even overall. +2 wilderness lore isn't too bad.

    I say the dwarf wins skills.

    Saves: Dwarves easily win this by a large margin.

    Misc:

    Dwarves have darkvision and the racial atack/dodge bonus stuff.

    Lizardmen get +2 NA, a minor penalty in cold stuff a minor armour nerf and double length hold breath. *See below for the natural weapons.*

    I'd say the +2 NA means the lizardmen win that category.

    So overall I'd call the lizardmen slightly weak to balenced without the racial feat.

    *The natural weapons are really lame. The bite attack is the only one you can use all the time. Its 1d4 + 1/2 str, big deal.

    The claws are dodgy too. I can use both claws or a twohanded weapon. Or a one handed weapon and a shield. Or two real weapons. The only time you'd use these claws is if you had no real weapons handy. They have no significant power.

    Draco_Argentum
    04:45:01 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Now onto the racial feats.

    Savage lizard is overpowered.

    Kruthian lizard and Fire lizard have potential to be overpowered.

    The rest are fine as I'm inclined to call the race a little underpowered without them. Aside from the three I mentioned they don't grant massive power boosts.

    GiantInThePlayground
    04:48:26 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: Kkat at 02:29:55 Thu Aug 7 2003

    Quote: GiantInThePlayground at 02:05:55 Thu Aug 7 2003



    Which is kind of a problem, because the MM lizardfolk has a level adjustment.


    True. But the MM lizardfolk also has two racial HD and all the crud that comes with it.


    The MM lizardfolk has a +1 level adjustment on top of the 2 racial Hit Dice for a total ECL of 3. So even if you were to vacate the racial HD, they would still be ECL +1. In the new 3.5 MM, the level adjustment at the end of the entry is added to the monster HD for the total ECL; it doesn't include the HD.

    For the natural armor feat: what if it added +1 to your natural armor at 1st level, increasing to +2 at 3rd and +3 at 6th? By 6th level, that +3 isn't a big deal. It's still powerful, but not game-breakingly so at very low levels.

    The other one is still tough. The fact is that giving a Strength bonus as a feat is a sticky wicket; it is so much better for a warrior-type than any feat in existence that I would expect to see every non-caster lizardfolk take it. Especially if they take fighter and get another feat anyway. I mean, who's going to take Weapon Focus at 1st level over +2 Str? It's not even min/maxxing at that point, the lizardfolk feat is obviously superior. Int is a nice stat, but there are plenty of character concepts that don't need it, and lots that even thrive on not having it (the straight fighter/barbarian type, mostly).

    Now a feat that changed the stat adjustments from +2 Con, –2 Cha to +2 Str, +2 Con, –2 Int, and –2 Cha might be fair. After all, the feat is a freebie anyway, and no one is compelled to take it. It makes the lizardfolk a better warrior if that's the player's bag, but at the cost of two stat penalties.

    Kkat
    04:58:32 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    You've got a point.

    How about this:

    Savage Lizard: +1 natural armor. Increases to +2 at 3rd level. To +3 at 6th level.

    Furthmore, change the the Lizardfolk armor restriction to include no heavy armor. Does it make sense for Lizardfolk to be unable to wear heavy armor?

    --Kkat



    Kkat
    06:17:29 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Updates:

    I used GitP's idea for Savage Lizard.

    And I found a missing word in the racial writeup. The penalties for the cold environment said "-2 racial penalty to and to Initiative"

    The missing word has been restored.

    --Kkat

    Kkat
    06:40:15 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Kruthian Lizard and Fire Lizard


    IMHO, the race, before the bonus feat, is a little underpowered. Not much, but slightly.

    A net +2 to stat bonuses does not automatically make a race overpowered. Compared to, say, a spellcaster level, this is nothing. Having a net +2 is sweet, but not purest honey sweet.

    Kruthian gives you a net ability bonus of +2. This isn't too bad.

    Fire also gives you a net ability bonus of +2. So, in theory, it should be just as balanced as Kruthian. Fire rearranges where the bonuses are, but you still wind up with the same overall outcome.

    The only difference between them, then, is that Fire also removes a penalty. The question is, how much is the penalty worth?

    Consider:
  • The penalty is only in extreme cold environments. How often do those come up?
  • The penalty hits some vital places though.
  • OTOP: the penalty can be removed with a level 1 spell that virutally every spellcasting class has.

    SO, is the removal of the penalty significant enough to make Fire too powerful?

    Or is Fire too powerful because it involves Strength?



    This line of thought is based on the idea that the Lizardfolk is a little underpowered compared to races such as the elves, gnomes and halflings. (And, if we want to consider 3.5, the dwarves.)

    This may not be entirely true, however. Is there another penalty that the Lizardfolk need to help balance them which is also purrrfectly appropriate for Lizardfolk and adds to their flavor?

    --Kkat

  • GiantInThePlayground
    22:03:59 Thu
    Aug 7 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: Kkat at 06:40:15 Thu Aug 7 2003

    Kruthian Lizard and Fire Lizard


    IMHO, the race, before the bonus feat, is a little underpowered. Not much, but slightly.

    A net +2 to stat bonuses does not automatically make a race overpowered. Compared to, say, a spellcaster level, this is nothing. Having a net +2 is sweet, but not purest honey sweet.

    Kruthian gives you a net ability bonus of +2. This isn't too bad.

    Fire also gives you a net ability bonus of +2. So, in theory, it should be just as balanced as Kruthian.


    I kind of disagree with this, because reducing a penalty is not as strong as granting a bonus. For 90% of all lizardfolk characters, reducing that Charisma penalty is at best ho-hum. Only people who want to play lizardfolk sorcerers would even consider it. But gaining a bonus to two highly synergized stats, Str and Con, is huge comparitively. Fighters, barbarians, bards, druids, paladins, rangers, monks, clerics, and heck, even a lot of rogues would pick Fire over Kruthian. Anyone who intends to own a melee weapon would be better off with Fire than Kruthian.

    And here's the kicker: if you were playing a lizardfolk sorcerer, you are STILL be better off with Fire! Because you still get your Charisma penalty killed AND you get an extra Strength bonus, in return for a penalty to a stat that doesn't much matter to you because the sorcerer skill list sucks ass. Add in the fact that if you are going for Dragon Disciple, the Strength bonus is attractive and the Kruthian restriction on what color DD you can be is not, and it becomes a no-brainer.

    Kkat
    08:20:54 Fri
    Aug 8 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Here's an idea:

    What would you think about the Fire Lizard feat coming with an experience point cost? Would this help balance it out more? And, if so, what XP cost would you say is appropriate?

    --Kkat

    Nab
    16:34:15 Fri
    Aug 8 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    XP cost for feats?!? I like this race except for the bonus feats. I think without them it is underpowered, and with them it is overpowered. You should try and think of some sort of ability in between, or keep the feats and add another weakness.

    Kkat
    01:34:02 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    The feats shouldn't be thought of in comparison to normal feats. They aren't normal feats. They aren't meant to be balanced compared to normal feats.


    The Lizardfolk "feats" are subtypes. It is just that I have chosen to impliment subtypes in the same way feats are implimented.


    If subtypes can have ECLs, then so can Lizardfolk feats....

    Save that ECLs are craptacular. An experience point cost for powers is, while not purrrfect, a far better solution.


    I am thinking a 750 xp cost for Fire Lizard. But I am open to other suggestions.

    --Kkat

    Nab
    02:02:10 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    What is the "standard" lizardfolk then? The main, non-subraced one? What feat do they take?

    Mr_Kami
    02:27:49 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    possibly Fire and Sun

    Kkat
    03:04:28 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Well, to get the MM version, you take Fire and Savage.

    But I think what you are asking is what is the non-subrace version... like the PHB elves are "standard" and the "drow" are a subrace...

    But really, what makes the Drow not the standard and the PHB elves a subrace? I'm sure the Drow see it that way.

    If you want to look at it that way, "standard" is whatever you arbitrarily decide "standard" is.

    Alternately, "standard" is the lizardfolk with one lizardfolk feat that matches the setting. For instance, in Kruth, a Lizardfolk with the Kruthian Lizard feat is the standard. In the Burning Lands, a Lizardfolk with the Sun Lizard feat is the standard.

    In Greymettle, since most Lizardfolk within it live on the boarder between Greymettle and the Savage Lands, the standard would be the Lizardfolk with the Savage Lizard feat.

    No matter where you go, Fire Lizard isn't the standard. Fire Lizard Lizardfolk are to Lizardfolk like Half-Elves are to elves. (Or, purrrhaps, like Half-Orcs are to humans.)

    --Kkat

    Nab
    17:23:49 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Hmm. I'm thinking of adapting these for my campaign setting. Although, I'd just have one of the feats and have that as standard. Most likely savage. I just realized why I have a problem with the feats though. It's because they can be taken as normal feats, albeit only at 1st level. Why would any first level lizardfolk choose toughness over savage lizard? If you want to have subraces based on this feat system, that's cool, but don't allow them as normal feats. Oh yeah, and the last two feats (the combat ones) should be able to be taken as fighter bonus feats.

    Kkat
    19:16:31 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Cool.

    It's always awesome when somebody likes my ideas enough to adopt them, in part or in whole.


    As for allowing them to be taken as normal feats: yes. I did that specifically to allow certain subtypes, such as a Savage Fire Lizard (as mentioned before, this makes you effectively the MM Lizardfolk).

    I don't see it as Lizardfolk Feats being the same as feats. I see it as allowing a slightly more powerful subrace at the penalty of loosing your starting feat. Lizardfolk of a subtype that has two of those special abilities are a little more powerful than a normal rase; none of these combinations are worth an LA, but loosing something (in this case, your first level feat) is required for balance.

    --Kkat


    Kkat
    19:17:58 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    You are probably right about the combat ones.

    --Kkat

    Kkat
    19:19:00 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Quote: Kkat at 01:34:02 Sat Aug 9 2003


    I am thinking a 750 xp cost for Fire Lizard. But I am open to other suggestions.


    Anybody?

    --Kkat

    Kkat
    20:36:30 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Thanks to a suggestion from one of my players to help balance the Fire Lizard in a more enjoyable and flavorful way, I present the following addition:

    Quote:

    Being hot-blooded, pseudo-mammalian reptiles, Fire Lizards require three times the normal food consumption that others do.


    What do you think?

    --Kkat

    Nab
    22:54:00 Sat
    Aug 9 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race (Balanced?)
    Good idea. Make sure you have rules for them with rings of sustenance and the like.

    Kkat
    02:50:19 Thu
    Dec 4 2003
    Re: Lizardfolk PC Race
    Lizardfolk Flavor Text!

    Lizardfolk, children of Semuanya, thrive in all their variety throughout the lands of the realm. Breeding and adapting quickly, Lizardfolk have spread and flourished across the realm, spawning a myriad of subraces. They rival humans in both population and variety.

    Lizardfolk are cold-blooded reptilian humanoids. They have blunted snouts and mouths full of sharp teeth, clawed hands and large, flexible tails. Lizardfolk exist in a multitude of intermingled subraces. There are five particularly distinct subraces: Fire Lizards, Kruth Lizard, Savage Lizards, Sun Lizards and Yuan Lizards. Each is named in relation to the region they developed, save for Fire Lizards (often misnamed "half-lizards") who are the result of interbreeding with pseudo-mammalian races such as the Yaun-ti, Medusa and Half-Dragons. Mixed breeding between these subraces is extremely common, creating "sub" subraces, such that many Lizardfolk are marked by dual-heritage. Furthermore, a few Lizardfolk show throwback qualities to the original children of Semuanya, the original, primordial Lizardfolk.

    Adult Lizardfolk range between 4 ½ and 5 ½ feet in height, varying by subrace. Those with Sun Lizard heritage tend to be the smallest, barely taller than dwarves, while the warm-blooded Fire Lizard subrace and the those with Yuan heritage can grow a little over 6 feet tall. Lizardfolk have tough, scaley hides with scale colors that vary drastically between subraces, from the reds oranges and golds of Fire Lizards to the swampy colors that mark those from the Savage Lands, from the blues and greens of the Lizardfolk from Kruth to the chameleon hides of those from the Burning Lands. In the eyes of most races, it is extremely difficult to tell male and female Lizardfolk apart. Only Lizardfolk are adept at reading the secondary sexual characteristics of their species such as scale pattern and flank width. The exception is the warm-blooded Fire Lizards, who share more mammalian sexual features.

    Lizardfolk are a strange, alien race in the eyes of other common races. Their cold, reptilian minds make them difficult to understand or relate to. Lizardfolk likewise have difficulty understanding they psychology of the other races. Only the mongrel Fire Lizard subrace and the culturally advanced Kruthian Lizardfolk share enough common ground with non-Lizardfolk to interact with less difficulty. While Lizardfolk relations with other races are stunted by their alien natures, only the Espy hold downright hostility towards them.

    Lizardfolk build villages on the edges of the civilizations of other common folk, mixing with their neighbors for barter and trade. In some places, they are little more than barely cultured savages, living in mud huts and hunting things down with clubs and spears. In others, living in proximity to the other common races spurred their development.

    In the Burning Lands, they roam in nomadic desert clans, interacting with the similarly nomadic Basti on a regular basis, or who build villages near oasis. The Kruthian Lizardfolk are the pinnacle of Lizardfolk cultural advancement; the mingling of Dragon and Lizardfolk blood, and their parallel development with the humans under the former Illithid Dominion, spawned the Lizardfolk race who eventually built a mighty seafaring empire -- an empire built on piracy and slavery. Fire Lizards, often misnamed “half-lizards” are the result of interbreeding with pesudo-mammalian races such as the Yaun-ti, Medusa and Half-Dragons. These mongrels live wherever other races do, usually apart from normal Lizardfolk communities.

    Lizardfolk are the children of Semuanya, deity of propagation and survival. Most Lizardfolk follow the precepts of Semuanya even if they do not worship their deity. Lizardfolk who worship deities other than Semuanya tend to worship Fharlanghn or Obah-Dai. Sun Lizards often worship Pelor while many Kruthian Lizardfolk are known to worship Bakaz (the evil Illithid god of psionics, storms and the ocean, and patron deity of slavers).

    Lizardfolk tend towards neutrality. Lizardfolk are survivors and tend to take whatever actions best facilitate survival. Lizardfolk with Fire Lizard heritage are more often chaotic, their mixed blood making for less stable personalities. Lizardfolk within the Kruthian civilization are more likely to be lawful or evil, the influence of the Illithid Dominion still echoed in their society.

    Lizardfolk are not the most common of adventurers. When a Lizardfolk does become an adventurer, it is for reasons of his or her own. There is no racial stereotype for Lizardfolk who take up such a lifestyle.

    --Kkat
    PS: Flavor Text is based on my next projected game. Some portions may not be applicable to my current game.



    Lizardfolk PC Race
    http://bb.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=10&thread=123
    Powered By BbBoard - http://bb.bbboy.net