The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"
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TSEDEK
02:03:09 Tue
Jan 18 2005

This thread is mainly in response to Phalanx's post on "GOD IS DA BOMB". This is long and may be a little scrammbled but, honestly i dont even want scoffers and impatient fools to read it anyway. God doesnt waste time explaining to those types of people so why should I. Read it if your heart and mind are open. Also, I suggest you read that post by Phalanx before you read this post.

Anyway, I'd like to just state that i do not argue in order to prove myself right, but i argue to reveal truths. there is no point in twisting logic and using tortuous phylosophy with no basis in order to stubbornly promote an idea.

I feel that most people that have criticisms of the christian faith are atheists who lack an intellectual background in the area. They lack knowlege about what is even within the bible that they criticise and draw conclusions about.

Not many have studied the story of genesis, or any of the stories for that matter, so the basis for their arguments are quite weak compared to those of more intellectual atheist. Sadly, these arguments do prove strong enough to deter new christians who arent as well versed in their own scripture as others, and whom lack the level of faith demonstrated by people with a long relationship with God.

The fact is that alot of atheist dont even know what it is that they dont believe in. But I will explain this simple point for those of you who are not brain washed by simple atheist prattle easily. This is for those who have a heart that is searching for God but have not found him, so you have not commited yourself to a belief.
Because the lord does not yield to stubborn hearts, nor stubborn minds, those who chose not to seek him and make jokes of him will never find him.(if you read the bible this characteristic is revealed about him)

First of all, if you read the scripture carefully you will find that in the Begining God had made all that he wished to make: the world, the animals, and man and woman. Now for people who argue that the genesis story has no scientific basis, please have patience. It is obvious that God has no interest in science and explaining the detail of his works to mankind, because we could never understand. So, how else would he explain his relationship with all things created and mankind without explaining it in a story or conceptual truth.

He was at peace with his creation, that was in his image. That means that this creation of man was a being of his likeness. It was a being that shared the creativity, and emotions of the Lord, and had the gift of free will like the Lord, which set mankind aside from anything the Lord had claimed ownership of.

It does not say anywhere in the bible that the Lord knows the future. If you have a quote in the bible from God that he knows the future, and that he is a fortune teller, then let me see it. What you people are confused by is the fact that God can command the future by the power of his word. The Lord can shape the future and make things come to pass. If he speaks, his word never returns void. These are the truths of the bible. All things that are planned by the Lord come to pass. Those things that are planned in opposition to the lord will fail. No body knows what the Lords plan is in detail, but we all see his plan come to pass day by day. Those of us with a close relationship with god see the goodness of his work each day in our lives and are thankful. Now if god can command the future then why doesnt he make me believe in him? Because he is a jealous God, and is proud. If you have ever had a girlfriend or a freind that has made you jealous you would understand. What is God going to prove about himself if he simply makes us obey him whilst satan has challenged him. Satan has challenged the Lords ability to win our hearts without forcing us to him. For him to force us would be proof that he is not worthy of our praise.

When ever God speaks of knowing all, it is related to truth in the bible. The God of truth knows all truths and can spot any lies, because he knows men by their hearts, and not by the worthless thoughts in their heads. The God of wisdom is said to be wisdom itself, in the bible. Now to be the essense of wisdom, obviously he would be able to predict a persons actions by knowing their hearts, even while he does not like those actions. How many times have you acted like something you werent? Whats the point in judging people by what they do? God has no interest in what we want to do with our lives, without him. He can set a process in motion to control what happens to us, or stay his hand if he wants. He answers the cries of those who call out to him, and at times allows our collective evil to destroy us.

Although his ways may seem harsh, his ear never turns away from a repenting heart, that cries out, and mercy is his way.

The Lord has spoken so that his word was recorded in the scripture, and it describes the course of the universe that we should expect. That is all you need to know as far as he is concerned. What you decide to do with that information is up to you. God has never claimed to know what you will do, but he knows your heart, and longs for you to give it to him so that you can be all that you were made to be. Even as christians we do not believe that our actions on earth have any relevance to our eternal resting place. The Lord only reads our hearts. He said that when he comes again, those who believe in me and chose Jesus as their saviour will not perish. Itis simple as that.

He didnt say oh I'm coming for everyone except drug dealers, and murderers. We control what we do, but most of all we control what we choose to put our faith in, and what our attitudes are. There is always a chance to change your faith and your attitude towards life, and when god is revealed to you, the old ways dont make sense anymore, so good is your focus.

Yes, no amount of good works can get you to heaven, and only one type of bad doing can keep you from there. To disrespect the Lord God by denouncing his existence after he has come to earth to reclaim his lost people is the final strike. All of you who are atheist wont be forever. It will either be at your death bed, or it will be on the last day that you finally kneel. Or it will be today or tomorrow.

From the garden came the introduction of original sin by satan. It was not god's intention for such a thing to happen, but obviously once ithad happened he knew. The thing that happened in that garden is the reason that you atheist are atheist and us worshipers are worshipers. Man decided that he was wise and began to question the power of God. There was a breech in faith that grew stronger and stronger. So you go from a group of people that had seen God's face to a lineage of people who wonder if he actually even exist, all because we no longer lived in his presence.

God is proud and God is jealous. These are truths of scripture. God will not prove himself to a person that thinks he is wiser, and is too proud to simply have faith. The creator of all things is too proud to do such a thing. If you're foolish worthless soul will not humble yourself enough to search for God out of faith then he will never reveal himself to you with the proof that you desire. Though he will continue to work in your life, you will never have enough proof, but know this, he is not a nickle and dime magician. That magic trick you're waiting for, for him to prove himself with just so that he is worthy of your obedience, will probably be the one he uses to destroy existance as you know it.

If you people who are ignorant of what is actually in the bible knew half of who God really is by what he reveals about himself in the bible, you would understand the world and you would understand yourself. You would understand yourself because you are made in the image of a divinity. Stop living like squirrels who can only believe in what they see, and can only have faith in what has already revealed itself to them.

Alot of wicked people are atheist (Hitler), but most of them are peopel who are angered by what they see in the world. People who cant believe a God would allow so much sorrow. Well, it helps to know which god your talking about, and to try to understand why.

Have you ever even thought deeply enough to see what reality really is, rather than what it looks like? What makes us so real, and the supernatural so supernatural? Tell me, what is normal about our very existance? Do you even know the odds, that life as you know it would even happen? Why are we here? If its an accident, then, how many accidents had to happen and when did it begin? Is it even possible to have a begining to a cascade of accidents that lead to reality? Someting has to come from something right? Chicken and egg? God...?

Please dont waste your time living this meaningless existance. It is pointless to live for this short amount of time and then to vanish from existence for ever. spend your time here thinking, and once you understand your purpose, then start living for that purpose. Remember, your not that smart, and Isaac Newton and Einstein have thought on the same things and arrived at God as being the answer, so just consider that. You dont have answers for why you even exist yet you want to have answers for why God does not?

Just remember what you see is not always reality. some would say that atoms bump one another by accident. They would say that is reality. I would say that a chemical reaction is no accident, because it is destined to happen. who is right? How is it that i can make the same accident happen without fail in a testube? Is random really random? Arent we all in a big testtube? Where is the boundary for this experiment of random occurences? Dont be a Fool, start thinking about life, and stop making excuses for why you already have it figured out. Cause you don't and you never will. Thats why God already told us, and it saddens him that that is not enough for some who will never know him.

cyberen
02:49:16 Tue
Jan 18 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

ok, a couple of questions

1. if we're made in god's image, where does that leave all other lifeforms on this planet and other planets in the great scheme of things?

2. why is god jealous, if he freakin made the universe?

3. "Alot of wicked people are atheist(Hitler)"
no, he was a devout christian.

4. "If its an accident, then, how many accidents had to happen and when did it begin?"

it could have taken literally an infinite amount of trial and error sessions to create reality because if there was no universe then time and space are meaningless.

5. "and Isaac Newton and Einstein have thought on the same things and arrived at God as being the answer"

quotes, please.

6. "Just remember what you see is not always reality"

if you're begging the question that what we think is reality may not be reality at all is denying both you and i the ability to say we know it all. So unless you want to get into some metaphysical mumbo-jumbo, lets not talk about "what if".

TSEDEK
06:00:20 Tue
Jan 18 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

A surface believer, like i said. Most people who refuse to see the spiritual, are people who are fooled by all things that they see as reality.

I said hitler was an atheist because he was not a christian. If he was a christians he would not have tried to rewrite church teachings in order to brain wash his countrymen. There was nothing devoute about his christianity. You atheist love to pin terrible occurences on religion.

Instead of finding out who god is to you, and what the bible says to you, you look at what people who call themselves christians do, then lable that as christianity. Hmmm...I guess it is as inmportant to believe in the enemy of our God as it is to believe in our God. Believe me Hitler did not believe in Jesus, and did not believe in the God of Abraham and Noah. You would be a fool to believe that. honestly do you see how incredibly stupid it is to believe some of the things you force yourself to believe, but you wont believe the one thing that makes the most sense. You would rather believe that hitler was a devout christian than to believe in your salvation.

anyway read this. Go look up more if you want.
Albert Einstein was born in 1879 of secular Jewish parents who lived in Ulm and then in Munich, where he went to school. There in accordance with state law he had to be instructed in his faith; he was taught Judaism because of his ethnic heritage. By the age of twelve Einstein became deeply religious, combining ardent belief in God with a passion for the music of Mozart and Beethoven. He composed songs to the glory of God which he sang aloud to himself on his way to and from school.

'Einstein regularly read the Bible, Old and New Testaments alike (which he continued to do throughout his life). He was taught the rudiments of Hebrew, but never mastered it, and he avoided the course for the traditional Bar-Mitzwa. He revelled in mathematics and music, especially in playing the violin, but recoiled from rigid orthodox rites such as those regarding kosher food, 3 compulsory rules, and Talmudic ways of thought. He began to develop a distrust of all authority, including biblical and religious authority. He had an unusually independent attitude of mind, critical but not sceptical, which was accentuated by his resentment against the authoritarian discipline of his German schoolmasters. This led him to give up his uncritical religious fervour in order to liberate himself from what he spoke of as "the only personal", but without becoming atheistic or hostile to religion.

He never lost his admiration for the fundamental ends and aspirations of the "Jewish-Christian religious tradition", and had no doubt of the significance of what he called those "superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation". 4 It was in this independent spirit, as "a typical loner", as he spoke of himself, without personal religious commitment, but with deep religious awe, that he cultivated and retained throughout his life unabated wonder at the immensity, unity, rational harmony, and mathematical beauty of the universe.
Later in life in a speech delivered in Berlin, he gave this illuminating account of himself:

Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5
http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflections_volume_1/torrance.htm

And heres a little something on Isaac, shit go buy a book on him, dont just take this silly post for granted. I am urging you to come out of your foolish ignorance and find the truth for yourself. quit assuming you have it figured out. Aquire knowlege and think, while you are here on this earth, because there is no other purpose.

'The law of gravity became Isaac Newton's best-known and most important discovery. Isaac warned against using it to view the universe as only some machine like a great clock. He said, "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done."

As the years passed, people came to understand the importance of his many discoveries. Isaac received many honors. In 1705, Queen Anne knighted him, Sir Isaac Newton. It was the first knighthood for scientific discoveries rather than deeds on the battlefield or in government. When Isaac Newton died in 1727, the poor country boy from Woolsthorpe was buried in a plot reserved for a king.

Despite the fame as scientist, the Bible and not nature had been Isaac Newton's greatest passion. He devoted more time to Scripture than to science. He said, "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." 'http://www.doesgodexist.org/NovDec01/IsaacNewtonAndGodsLawOfGravity.html

'Although his methodology was strictly logical, Newton still believed deeply in the necessity of a God. His theological views are characterized by his belief that the beauty and regularity of the natural world could only "proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." He felt that "the Supreme God exists necessarily, and by the same necessity he exists always and everywhere." Newton believed that God periodically intervened to keep the universe going on track. He therefore denied the importance of Leibniz's vis viva as nothing more than an interesting quantity which remained constant in elastic collisions and therefore had no physical importance or meaning. 'http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Newton.html

Wow and i was actually suprised by your first question #1. Come on kid. Did you take the time to read Genesis at all. Thats what im talkin about. Why would God care about all our other fury freinds when he made them for us to have dominion over. He made the world for us and made the animals and nature as a self sustaining environment for us, to feed on and to amaze us. Jeez man, have you ever opened the bible. Honestly. Are you an atheist because you cant get through the bible. I know its a boring read sometimes. And for you information, there is no proof of aliens or life on other planets, and if you read up on that subjectyou would realize that the chance of such a thing is very close to none. Until we get a spaceship visit or a radio message atleast or some kind of intelligent bleep, there is no image like our own.

And number 4 is also suprising to me. Dont you believe in your own principles of Darwinism. If it was infinite trial and error sessions then why is our existance so remote, and where is the evidence of these other attempts at life as we know it. Because if it was an evolved process we should see much more intermediate and advanced processes all around us. We should be able to draw a little tree of all the sessions and how they relate and have a visible timeline based on evidence of past life on other planets and solar systems. Come on kid. Be wiser before you believe satans B.S.

And yes please bring the phylosophical prattle about "who am i, am i, are you, is what" ifyou want, because my confidence in the flexibility of your mind is diminished by you comments. Im not questioning your intelligence, but your arguments seemed narrow and rigid. A stubborn devotion to a lack of knowlege.

YoUnderdog
17:04:58 Tue
Jan 18 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

TSEDEX,
I think you wrote an excellent post, and I applaud you for taking the time to write something that extensive. I am in agreement with you on most of your post. There are only two areas I wanted to address.

You said God doesn't predict the future. I agree, because He doesn't have to because He already knows what's going to happen. But you said you wanted biblical references. Remember when God was talking to Moses about the pharaoh of Egypt? He told Moses what was going to happen, how the pharaoh would not let His people go until He suffered (the plagues), and how the Israelites would leave with the wealth of Egypt? I guess you are right in a sense that God doesn't "predict" the future, but He certainly "tells" then future. I encourage you to take a look at more Old Testament books, and New Testament because He tells it exactly how it happened, happens, and will happen.

Something else I hope you can be patient with me about that I wanted to address. God is a patient God, and a loving God. Those are characteristics He wants us to emulate. I can feel your frustration with ignorance, but remember, we were both once lost, until He found us. Remember, we may have all the faith, knowledge, or prophecy, but without love we are nothing. I challenge you to speak in love instead of anger. Anger only turns people away. Jesus saved us by His love and mercy, not condemnation.

cyberen
18:42:51 Tue
Jan 18 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

Quote: TSEDEK at 06:00:20 Tue Jan 18 2005

A surface believer, like i said. Most people who refuse to see the spiritual, are people who are fooled by all things that they see as reality.

I said hitler was an atheist because he was not a christian. If he was a christians he would not have tried to rewrite church teachings in order to brain wash his countrymen. There was nothing devoute about his christianity. You atheist love to pin terrible occurences on religion.

ok, first off, YOU were the one to bring up hitler, and secondly, you have no right to question how deeply hitler believed in jesus and whatnot. sure, someone can be christian, but they can still manipulate it to extreme ends like all those televangelists you see.

Quote:

Instead of finding out who god is to you, and what the bible says to you, you look at what people who call themselves christians do, then lable that as christianity. Hmmm...I guess it is as inmportant to believe in the enemy of our God as it is to believe in our God. Believe me Hitler did not believe in Jesus, and did not believe in the God of Abraham and Noah. You would be a fool to believe that. honestly do you see how incredibly stupid it is to believe some of the things you force yourself to believe, but you wont believe the one thing that makes the most sense. You would rather believe that hitler was a devout christian than to believe in your salvation.

once again, that is not my opinion, hitler's religion is fact. its textbook knowledge. and what you said about albert einstein's religion is basically true, he turned out to be a theist at the end.

Quote:

And heres a little something on Isaac, shit go buy a book on him, dont just take this silly post for granted. I am urging you to come out of your foolish ignorance and find the truth for yourself. quit assuming you have it figured out. Aquire knowlege and think, while you are here on this earth, because there is no other purpose.

yeah, you want me to learn more, as long as it comes to the EXACT SAME CONCLUSION YOU HAVE. i have thought, a hell of a lot, thank you.

your links to newton are also interesting and i concede on that part, he was religious.

Quote:

Wow and i was actually suprised by your first question #1. Come on kid. Did you take the time to read Genesis at all.

no, never read a bible, of course i need to be in some magical reading-between-the-lines spiritual mindset to understand it anyway, so it would be useless.

Quote:

Why would God care about all our other fury freinds when he made them for us to have dominion over. He made the world for us and made the animals and nature as a self sustaining environment for us, to feed on and to amaze us.

do you have any idea how blatantly egotistical that is? if god has everlasting compassion, then he does care about our furry friends just as much as us. The world is not our fucking toy to mess with however we want, we DEPEND on it, we need to be responsible for keeping it clean, and as the old quote goes, we are not the web of life, we are merely a strand. what we do to others we do to ourselves. study pollution and you'll understand.
Oh and if you've ever done any research on the topic, the theory (as close to fact as one can honestly get) of evolution shows we are simply a more intelligent animal. If dolphins can learn and gorillas can speak sign language, that blurs the line between human and animal to nearly indistinguishable.

Quote:

And for you information, there is no proof of aliens or life on other planets, and if you read up on that subjectyou would realize that the chance of such a thing is very close to none.

space is an infinite void, if not infinite, then infinitely expanding faster at the speed of light. it is at least 12 billion years old, and the sheer amounts of planets out there (we found more than 3 outside our solar system including an earth-like planet) is by our perspective infinite. in an infinite void the possibilities are endless, including the idea that life lives on other planets. all it takes is a spinning rock of a good size and a good distance from a star and life will flourish. humans haven't even formed a concrete definition of life, so the alien life forms out there may defy conventional thinking. I don't know about how many aliens came to earth, but i do know that in an infinite void with infinite time and space, there is infinite possibilities, chance is meaningless, so to consider this planet the only speck of dust in the entire universe with life on it is as egotistical as a geocentric model for the solar system.

Quote:

And number 4 is also suprising to me. Dont you believe in your own principles of Darwinism. If it was infinite trial and error sessions then why is our existance so remote, and where is the evidence of these other attempts at life as we know it.

if there aren't any other lifeforms in this solar system, the next door neighbor is 4.3 light years away, which is too far for our current technology to take us and see if life is at the next freaking star in the sky. there isn't any evidence (unless you count the endless close encounter cases as evidence, which if you do, is a hell of a lot) but we can see by the way life adapts to the most extreme environments on earth that life could live elsewhere.

Quote:

Because if it was an evolved process we should see much more intermediate and advanced processes all around us. We should be able to draw a little tree of all the sessions and how they relate and have a visible timeline based on evidence of past life on other planets and solar systems.

the problem with tracing a timeline of all lifeforms on earth is that the physical evidence for such is hard, if not impossible to find. fossils, for example, only form when an animal dies and the bones are packed in mud and sediment until the bone matter is replaced with sediment. think of all the millions of life forms who would be too fragile to remain intact during such a process or don't have any bones at all. The amount we've found is a lot, and people can take educated guesses to fill in the gaps in the evolutionary timeline. but that's the mystery of the past, and you'd have to be a pretty shitty detective if you expected to have all the clues lined up for you at once.

Quote:

A stubborn devotion to a lack of knowlege.

says the guy who thinks satan wants me to believe in evolution.

TSEDEK
23:53:44 Tue
Jan 18 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

You are right about me. YouUnderDog , I have a fire inside me. I should not let my frustration dismantle God's message. My harsh words come out to ward off the scoffers and to strike a curiosity into those who have open hearts.

The posts ive seen on this site have mostly been ill based attacks on the scripture from people who know nothing about scripture, and i admit that it angered me. I have a passion for new beleivers and a deep concern for their protection from fools, because i remember how it was when i lived my life questioning the Lord and was newly forming my faith.

About God's ability to know the future, well you are correct. I was hoping that curious people would actually pick up the scripture to find out for themselves, which is why there are no quotes in my post.

Through my meditation with the Lord and what i know of his word i came to that conclusion righteously. The Lord did tell moses, and many of his other prophets of things to come. However, those things were within his plan that he had commanded through his word. When the lord speaks of his plan he begins to orchestrate certain occurences to bring it to pass. He states clearly in that passage that he would harden the heart of the pharoah each time so that he would deny moses.

It is hard for us to understand why God would use the pharoah in such a way, but God was not only freeing his people but making a demonstration of his power. After all he had to compete with the gods that the people had adopted. He arranged for all the things that happened in egypt to happen, after he had spoken the word that they would happen. Now he never stated that he does this for everyone that is created. He never claims that he plans out the lives of every individual. When he has a goal in mind he makes use of individuals that offer themselves, and makes use of the wickedness of others also. So even if we decide on our own to be wicked he can use this thing to bring is plan to pass. Like i said even those who oppose the work of the Lord will not prevail. He also offers prosperity to Israel and takes it away multiple times. Now if he knew the future then what was the point in that. I now understand that he did not plan their wickedness towards him, and that it was their own doing, so he made a new plan each time.

I was fortunate enough to be granted an understanding of this thing that used to trouble me in my deliberation. I could not fathom a God that knows the course of my life yet allows me to be wicked. God is the spirit and is not confined by time and the limits of circumstance. His wisdom is infinite, and his power is infinite also. He can control us as he can control the wind and the planets if he wishes. As you can see from your own eyes, some things have been left to act out their purpose on their own, whilst he has his hands on others.

The Lord knows our hearts and when he reveals a path to someone in the bible it is based on the truth he sees in their heart which is their own decision.

Jesus told Peter on his final days that he would deny him three times before day break, a very simple and wise truth. Jesus knew Peter's heart and made this observation. The Lord has the power to prepare the test for Peter, which he did, and Peter failed three times. God did not arrange for this thing to happen to shame Peter, but he did it to teach Peter. God noticed that Peter was being false in his presence, and decided at that moment to prepare that lesson for him. He also had a lesson for Judas. Before they would take themselves as saints he made sure to show them they were like the flock that he meant for them to lead in his absence. To show them that even they had forsaken him, whilst he gave up his life for them. They would never condemn man again after being humbled like that. Jesus did not make them that way, he just knew that they were that way, and wanted to show them what he saw. They were just men.

I am long winded, but basically my point is the Lord shapes the future and does not predict it. The future is not written until the Lord speaks it. The part we play in the future that the Lord has written is our own decision unless he decides to take control of us. The lord would never consider himself a fortune teller, since he condemns such practices.

TSEDEK
00:31:53 Wed
Jan 19 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

I'm sorry for blowing up with that offensive post cyberen. My God does command me to apologize for tarnishing his face. The very thing i complain about it was i did; christians not representing the God they serve. There was no mercy or understanding in that post for people that God is in search for, and more or less pushed them away.

But the thing about Einstein was true, and he didnt die an atheist, because you have not proof of that, and basically you contradict what the quote and the website i referred to you clearly states. My point was Einstein respected a higher power, and after all his deliberation beleived a God was necessay, even though he did not know what doctrine to believe.

Secondly, the universe is not infinite, as you stated and scientist are able to establish much more than you think about the contents of these solarsystems that are light years away, just by the light that comes from them. Even though we cannot see fossils and microorganism from that far, my point was that if this one occurence on earth was an accident of evolutionary science, we would see more planets in the stages of creation that we determined for our own planet. You know, like how we are able to explain the natural processes that go into forming a planet like earth, we see very few of these things in near by solar systems. Mainly all we see is gaseous balls about an in adequate sun.

Basically i am not saying i do not believe in evolutionary processes, and i am not saying satan controls evolution. It did anger me when you said that, but i can understand how you can make such a misinterpretation. All processes that exist that promote creation are God's tools for the works you see. I do believe that the systems we observe around us are products of the same process used to create this system, and that can be seen as evolutionary attempts, but my point is that their are not enough of them to arrive at what we see in this one system. It is hard enough for the probability of the universe to even form a terrestrial planet (one with a rock core and gas envelope).

There should be many more of these types of occurences resembling our own planet that lead up to our level of life, and the fact that their aren't, is evidence of a freak occurence on the level of a miracle. Which is why, within the lifetime of this planet we will never see a people or organisms that our god would have needed to include in his account for creation to us. Your correct if you say, he never said he didnt create besides us, but his story is with us for this lifetime, and that is all he had to say to us, and all we need to know. The stars are there to decorate the sky, and that is all they will ever do for us.

My mention of satan was in regard to you belief that hitler was a christian. If you knew what christianity was you would know who is christian and who is not, and you would not be fooled. Because you call yourself christian, means nothing to god, because after all he did not create that label, but only sent his son down to earth. Men are able to abuse it and with the aide of satan can tarnish the image of God's people.

Phalanx
03:55:47 Wed
Jan 19 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

When i started the "Ultimate argument against Religion" thread i had no idea it would become so big, or spawn other threads like this one. Im quite pleased with it actually. TSEDEK, Ill read your post when i get a chance and I might reply to it, but chances are, its been covered already in my thread. Incidentally, the ultimate argument I give isnt really ultimate. It depends entirely on ones standpoint on such matters. I just started that thread to provoke some intelligent reciprocity between people who actually care about these things and to hopefully put an end to that temporary "kiddie insurgence" we had here a few months ago.

Later,
Phalanx

cyberen
04:01:34 Wed
Jan 19 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

Quote: TSEDEK at 00:31:53 Wed Jan 19 2005

I'm sorry for blowing up with that offensive post cyberen. My God does command me to apologize for tarnishing his face. The very thing i complain about it was i did; christians not representing the God they serve. There was no mercy or understanding in that post for people that God is in search for, and more or less pushed them away.

well i'm not here to determine between the true christians and fake christians, as that would entail drawing a lot of imaginary lines and do a lot of theological research into history. but i'd like to know, if christianity is truly god's choice, then how come such a divine plan can be corrupted so easily?

Quote:

But the thing about Einstein was true, and he didnt die an atheist, because you have not proof of that, and basically you contradict what the quote and the website i referred to you clearly states. My point was Einstein respected a higher power, and after all his deliberation beleived a God was necessay, even though he did not know what doctrine to believe.

I agreed that he was a theist, and it seems he would be a theist even as he died.

Quote:

Secondly, the universe is not infinite

how big is it then?
and secondly, if the universe expands at or faster than the speed of light, then it is infinite, since nobody could ever, ever reach the end without some super light speed technology.

Quote:

Even though we cannot see fossils and microorganism from that far, my point was that if this one occurence on earth was an accident of evolutionary science, we would see more planets in the stages of creation that we determined for our own planet. You know, like how we are able to explain the natural processes that go into forming a planet like earth, we see very few of these things in near by solar systems. Mainly all we see is gaseous balls about an in adequate sun.

our current technology has given us but a dot on a screen to signify a planet from another solar system (and pluto as well) so there would be no way we could determine if life exists there or not. hell, life could exist on venus, but we wouldn't know since all our satellites burn up in the atmosphere. Even if nearby planets didn't have life, scientists have still been able to create organic molecules for building life from non-organic substances, which shows the definite probability of it occuring on some other planet. Each galaxy contains trillions of stars, and we're in only one. wouldn't it be a little closeminded to think that we're the only planet in this entire unknown void with life? Nobody knows how many stars there are in the universe, or planets. so to strike down the possibility when science shows it is possible is ridiculous.

Quote:

Basically i am not saying i do not believe in evolutionary processes, and i am not saying satan controls evolution. It did anger me when you said that, but i can understand how you can make such a misinterpretation. All processes that exist that promote creation are God's tools for the works you see. I do believe that the systems we observe around us are products of the same process used to create this system, and that can be seen as evolutionary attempts, but my point is that their are not enough of them to arrive at what we see in this one system. It is hard enough for the probability of the universe to even form a terrestrial planet (one with a rock core and gas envelope).

have you thought that maybe god made the system of evolution itself?

and our own sun has 3 planets with a rock core and gas envelope. mars, venus, earth, and i think pluto and mercury. thats pretty impressive for one single star. and there could be ways for a lifeform to exist on a gas planet. some people even say the ocean in europa could contain life, and this is all orbiting around one single star. guess how many other stars are out there? with how many planets? so why is the probability hard?

and how is evolution somehow not working fast enough?

Quote:

There should be many more of these types of occurences resembling our own planet that lead up to our level of life, and the fact that their aren't, is evidence of a freak occurence on the level of a miracle.

it seems like you're using bad multiplication. one planet out of 9 has life, so one planet out of infinity has life? If our solar system is an accurate representation of the universe in terms of population, there are a hell of a lot more planets with civilizations than us.

Quote:

Which is why, within the lifetime of this planet we will never see a people or organisms that our god would have needed to include in his account for creation to us. Your correct if you say, he never said he didnt create besides us, but his story is with us for this lifetime, and that is all he had to say to us, and all we need to know. The stars are there to decorate the sky, and that is all they will ever do for us.

if we never manage to achieve the formula for intergalactic travel (even if that means living generations among the stars) wouldn't it hurt to have god say a little something about the rest of the universe? It seems like a good idea to me, that way people can stop thinking they're the fucking center of the universe and get a little humility and brotherhood kicked in their head.

Quote:

My mention of satan was in regard to you belief that hitler was a christian. If you knew what christianity was you would know who is christian and who is not, and you would not be fooled. Because you call yourself christian, means nothing to god, because after all he did not create that label, but only sent his son down to earth. Men are able to abuse it and with the aide of satan can tarnish the image of God's people.

what does satan do that man can't? I mean, humans, by nature, are opportunists. they'll take what's given to them. we're freaking mammals. so it would seem like we would take advantage of manmade constructs as well. Besides, if satan can corrupt this perfect plan of god, then that means satan is a match for god, which wouldn't make sense, since god's supposed to be infinitely more powerful than anyone else. I'd like to know who this satan fellow is.

YoUnderdog
04:53:33 Wed
Jan 19 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

TSEDEK,
Thanks for being so receptive to me. I know its easy for me to preach to you, but I could have easily shown more anger, and am by no means better off than you, maybe at times worse. So thanks again for your patience and understanding.

cyberen,
I read your questions, and I thought them myself. Yes, in our solar system, there is one planet that has life out of a few, but still being that, it is very unlikely there is physical life on other planets. But like you said, who knows, considering how big our "universe" is.

Just because our "universe" is expanding, doesn't mean its not finite. It is big in comparison, and getting bigger, but still finite. The only thing I could compare it to is limits in calculus. It basically is a numerical representation of getting very close to something, without actually touching it. Anyway, you could infinitely come up with numbers to represent getting close to something without actually touching it, but at the same time, there is a point when you are actually touching that object. The same applies with our expanding universe, except vise versa.

Actually, there is evidence for the big bang in the bible, with scriptural verses that MAY with support it. Now, I am not saying that the big bang is definite, it is just a man made theory, but there are a bunch of scripture verses relating to it.

It amazes me how people are fascinated with Satan, but not God, the one who created him (and Who controls Him)! Satan is a peon compared to God. Satan can only do as much as God allows him to do, he is like a dog on a lease. God does allow evil though to fulfill His purpose though. But if you want to know more about Satan, I will obliged your request. I will post in in a seperate thread though.

cyberen
08:41:19 Sat
Jan 22 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

Quote: YoUnderdog at 04:53:33 Wed Jan 19 2005

TSEDEK,

cyberen,
I read your questions, and I thought them myself. Yes, in our solar system, there is one planet that has life out of a few, but still being that, it is very unlikely there is physical life on other planets. But like you said, who knows, considering how big our "universe" is.

how is it unlikely? when the universe is larger than we could ever possibly comprehend (since it is expanding forever) what makes it unlikely? I see it as a very real possibility since ice has been seen on many other planets, so all it takes is for a planet with ice to be close enough to a sun, give it some time for organic molecules to arise from inorganic ones and BOOM, life.

Quote:

Just because our "universe" is expanding, doesn't mean its not finite. It is big in comparison, and getting bigger, but still finite. The only thing I could compare it to is limits in calculus. It basically is a numerical representation of getting very close to something, without actually touching it. Anyway, you could infinitely come up with numbers to represent getting close to something without actually touching it, but at the same time, there is a point when you are actually touching that object. The same applies with our expanding universe, except vise versa.

but for all intents and purposes within our current realm of understanding, it is infinite. that's because we don't know where the edge is, how big the universe is, and how fast it's expanding (not to mention the time-space implications of an expanding universe, which would make time questionable). Until a human instrument is capable of finding out where the edge is and how fast its expanding, we'll never know.

Quote:

Actually, there is evidence for the big bang in the bible, with scriptural verses that MAY with support it. Now, I am not saying that the big bang is definite, it is just a man made theory, but there are a bunch of scripture verses relating to it.

that would be interesting but i dont really care, seeing as how i dont use the bible to validate theories.

Quote:

It amazes me how people are fascinated with Satan, but not God, the one who created him (and Who controls Him)! Satan is a peon compared to God. Satan can only do as much as God allows him to do, he is like a dog on a lease. God does allow evil though to fulfill His purpose though. But if you want to know more about Satan, I will obliged your request. I will post in in a seperate thread though.

but if god is all good and all compassionate, why would he allow satan to do evil? I mean, god is above all else, so in the view of things satan is as powerful as us compared to god, so why is he even a pest? And if satan is controlled by god, wouldn't that make satan good, since he does god's will?

TSEDEK
00:17:48 Tue
Jan 25 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

Quote: null

have you thought that maybe god made the system of evolution itself?

and our own sun has 3 planets with a rock core and gas envelope. mars, venus, earth, and i think pluto and mercury. thats pretty impressive for one single star. and there could be ways for a lifeform to exist on a gas planet. some people even say the ocean in europa could contain life, and this is all orbiting around one single star. guess how many other stars are out there? with how many planets? so why is the probability hard?

and how is evolution somehow not working fast enough?

Bah!Of course I have thought of that. Thats what I meant by that statement. The processes we see around us are God's tools. We are like little kids trying to find the answers to a magicians tricks. We will never fully comprehend it all. God's mercy allows us enough room to find medicine and ways to overcome the harshness of this reality without being in the presence of his grace where there is no suffering.

Also our solar system is unique because we have life and a planet as elaborate as Earth. Mars and mercury exist because they are the probably possiblities that had to happen for earth to happen with the amount of material that was available for this solar system to form.

I agree that gravity guided the formation of this solarsystem and also forms others, but the overall theory behind solar system formation is still elementary and remains severely flawed. They fail to explain the origin of rocky sediment that they claim is the building blocks of our planet. All this material had to come from some where, so do they factor in the probable outcomes of forming this material when considering there statisitcs. Well, its impossible for them to do that, because they still dont even know where the rocky stuff came from, and why it was in motion in the first place. There simulations are based on speculations, and cant hope to encompass the vastness of possibilities involved in forming a solarsystem with a balance as complex as our own. Its hard enough to find solarsystems with one sun. :smile:

Yeh ours is still miraculous. Even if there is something close to it, its not it, and therefore falls short of a miracle. Planet Earth is a masterpiece of fortune in a world of apparent random behaviour.

Then what is even more suprising about scientific theory right now is that, they immediately start assuming that once a planet like earth is formed that the rest of creation is trivial. No that is extremely flawed. The steps that had to be taken after we were lucky enough to become third rock, are infinately improbable. They dont even really understand how water got on the surface of the earth. They dont understand how an atmosphere forms that traps water. If so then how many factors need to be considered when explaining the formation of a planet that has harboured an atmosphere for as long as Earth, and still holds strong.

destroyer2012
07:47:30 Tue
Mar 8 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

You know, it's funny watching you poke holes in cyberen's theories, TSEDEK, but neither of you notice the total picture. OFCOURSE there will be holes in our understanding of the universe, we are nowhere near total understanding of the functions of the universe, and ofcourse there are holes to poke in it. Now TSEDEK, do you think there is any way that holes can be created in the idea of god? NO because god is unfalsifiable. Any attack on the functions of 'god's creation' will be repelled by "god never meant for us to understand it" or "god is all powerful and this is how he wills it to be".

Look at it this way: all the facts of how the universe functions are a large golden egg. Now, say you take that egg and smash it into a billion peices. Now, all of the information is scattered, but always scientists are trying to pick up peices that fit and put them together, so our current understanding can be pictured as part of that golden egg. Now atheists such as myself and cyberen enjoy looking at this egg in its broken-up state, because we enjoy picking up the peices and trying to fit them to this ever-growing structure. People like you, TSEDEK, do not enjoy the idea of a half-built egg, and so you have taken your play-doh that is god and stuck it in the places where there is no egg. From a distance, your egg seems to be complete, but when put up to pressure, the weak play-doh structure crumbles because it is not made up of gold. Your egg looks good but it does not function. You can keep looking at your pretty little egg, and continue to live your life sure that you know the total truth, always shoving your unfalsifiable god in everyone's face. But eventually you will come to the understanding that at times a half-built egg is a lot better than a whole lot of play doh, because even though play-doh can become any shape you want, it can never be strong enough to work.

what i mean by all of this is that as much as you love knowing the total truth, belief in a god will never serve you a purpose, because god can never help you predict the future and understand the true structure of our existance as actual knowledge and theoretical models can. You always say that we atheists are uninformed about the bible, but perhaps you, too, are uninformed about the way that the WE figure and the way that the real world functions.

TDbear
12:06:53 Tue
Mar 8 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

very well said.

mmmmm golden egg *drools*

if i could think of one argument a christian would use agasint that its this.

if existance is a golden egg thats been smashe into a billion pieces, and scientists are constantly trying to put it together, then they never will because there are things that science will NEVER be able to comprhend; all the questions that begin with WHY.

as an agnostic, looking at this, i think its pretty obvious that science can put the shell together and answer the "what/when/where/who and how" questions. but then that cnanot be all of it, because even eggs have a filling, somthing beneath the shell. and i put it to you, that inside that shell, lies the answers to all the "why" questions. and those answers are:

jahovah
allah
ganesh/vishnu/shevah
Ra/isis/thoth/anubis etc etc
(the roman gods)
zeus/apollo/aries/hades
(the pagan/wiccan/druid) gods
(to a lesser extent because he was actually a man, who simply managed to find those answers) buddah

(and my personal beliefs) our guardian angels, the guardians of the spiritual plane.

and any other god(s) or higher powers that any one of our 6billion strong populous can think of.

the point is, that yes there are arguments agasint religion, but there can be no argument against faith because everyone needs faith. whether that faith be in a higher power that will save their soul from eternal damnation for their'sins', or faith in the equipment they use when performing open-heart surgery. or even faith in themselves to overcome the obsticles that they are confronted with all through life.

destroyer2012
05:17:42 Wed
Mar 9 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

You are absolutely right TDbear, to answer the un-answerable we must invent the un-disprovable, because there is no real answer and no possible way to prove that answer, the only acceptable 'reality' to the question of "why is it like THIS and not like THAT" is an unfalsifiable god for which you cannot say "it doesn't work". Kindof like how if you put one divided by zero the answer is infinity. I still think it's all chance.

TDbear
09:30:03 Wed
Mar 9 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

thats kinda what i meant, but i wouldn't use the word 'god'.... god is such a strong word, with many conflicting connotations.

i'd prefer to use higher being/power or even just a non-corporial being.

but yes all of those that i mentioned have been "invented". its like the age old saying that

"history repats itself", the concept that time is not a straight line from A to B but actually a figure of 8 (on its side ofcourse). my point is that everything is created by something else.

<insert name of higher power here> created the universe-- which in itself created the stars, planets and all othre celestial phenomena---(coming to earth and possible any other inhabbited planet in the universe that has a sentient race of being which have a 'religious' belief)-- created us--- then we created <insert higher power> here--- who created the universe etc etc.

you get what i mean? its a never ending cycle, which begs the question of what was there before the universe as we know it came to be?!--- here again, religious people would say "<insert blah blah here> was here before the universe" but then, what was before that? another universe, with planets inhabitted by 'poeple' who invented a 'god' who created that universe?... and so on and so on.

we have to accept tha there are some questions that we will never be able to answer fully, because the answer is inside us all, but it is not the same answer for one person as it is for the next.

science is to religion as maths is to english:

science/math = probably one ONE correct answer to any one physical question, that requires working to make sure none of the 'variables' are incorrect

religion/english = there is NEVER ONE correct answer to every question of (e.g) what did john agard mean when he wrote 'half caste'?

destroyer2012
00:52:55 Thu
Mar 10 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

perhaps we ARE that higher power, and that eventually in the future a universe will be created by us, which has bent backwards in time to allow us to exist somehow... as little as we understand about the universe now, this could be a very plausible solution. But OFCOURSE, such questions cannot be answered until we get evidence, which will most likely be impossible to get, of how a universe is created. The minds of theoretical phsicists are never devoid of such evidence, however, and they suggest that universes form from the intense gravities at the center of black holes, or even from the subatomic stuff that makes up quarks, quantum foam.

Everything is relative, so even if a universe were smaller than an atom TO US, to the inhabitants of THAT universe, it will be impossibly huge, and neither of us can ever know that the other exists.

Epatto
18:26:21 Thu
Mar 10 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

Quote: TSEDEK

The fact is that alot of atheist dont even know what it is that they dont believe in. But I will explain this simple point for those of you who are not brain washed by simple atheist prattle easily.

Quote: TSEDEK

I feel that most people that have criticisms of the christian faith are atheists who lack an intellectual background in the area. They lack knowlege about what is even within the bible that they criticise and draw conclusions about.

Take a look at yourself and your fellow believers. The hold of peoples early associations are stronger than those of later. I think that most people on this forum are from religious, families with married parents, like I am, and have been preached at school. So the christian values and mentality has been planted in our minds "at our mothers' knees". The thing is, we atheists break those chains that have been forged into our heads, and form our own views. So it is more likely for a believer to be lacking intelligence.

Is a piece of text that goes "Judge not lest ye be judged." also familiar to you? It's ironic that Christians do not follow the teachings of Christ.

Also you speak of the Christian god as the one true. There are thousands of ethnic religions and beliefs that have existed long before Christianity, are bound to cultures of nations while some of them forming a distinctive part of a culture. Out of all that this planet bears on it, why Christianity? The bible was written by human hands. How can you proof it's divinity?

Christianity, and other monotheistic religions relatively alike it, are dangerous. Christianity is a weakness of character; it restricts your actions in the realm of living; it interferes your common sense while you make important decisions; it is a blindfold; it is a superiority complex; it has held back the development and progress of society and civilization, and drawn it back to the mud when it could've risen; it spawns neophobia; it is an enemy of knowelledge (take the banishing of Adam and Eve from Paradise for an example); it sows discord: if Christianity doesn't have any other religion to quarrel with, it has conflicts within itself (different interpretations and sects). Christianity has produced more pain, suffering and destruction than good. It has done good, but the rotten part of the fruit bears the crown.

The fact that many great scientists have been religious is quite amusing. Oh the irony....oh the humanity!!!

TDbear
10:39:10 Sun
Mar 20 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

the fact that you have to understand about darwin, einstien, and any other scientist that you say "came to the conclusion of God in later life" is not that they came to christianiy.

science deals with all matters of the physical reality around us, everything we can feel, see, taste, etc and measure. as a person grows older they become wiser and more knowledgeable. these people didn't turn to religion, but philosophy.

the definition of wisdom is "the knowledge and understanding that you know nothing"... accepting the fact that there will always be questions that cannot be answered.

philosophically speaking, i would say the wisesed people on the planet are those who are agnostic, and possible to a lesser extent, deist because they either know or believe in a higher power, but are also wise enough not to make any claim as to what that is, or claim that it reveals itself to us through any medium including holy scripture.

destroyer2012
09:07:26 Mon
Mar 21 2005

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

It doesn't matter who you think is 'smarter' or 'wiser', just because a person is a famous scientist doesn't mean we have to believe everything they say! That would be the same as what religious people do, believe everything their prophets say!

The idea here is that the only thing that we should consider the truth is something that has been proven and makes logical sense. Remmember that all good science consists of laws and rules based on discoveries made which went through the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, which says you should perform experiments to make sure that your theory actually works and provides an accurate way to predict reality. Since religion cannot be subjected to the scientific method, it cannot be considered logical truth until it is somehow proven BY MANY EXPERIMENTS MADE BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE YIELDING THE SAME RESULTS.

nameless56
03:23:45 Fri
Apr 7 2006

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

1. animals are to keep the planet in good condition, to bring us happiness, and to provide us with food. other planets help provide us w/ our stable orbit that allows life at all.

2.God is jealous, because he wants our worship and love, and does not want it to be given to those of earthly origin, but only to him

3.although someone may say they are a christian, and attempt to appear christian, it does not mean that they truly follow the christian path, or are a christian at all.

T_J
21:43:24 Fri
Apr 7 2006

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

I agree with #1 and #2.

I'm a bit foggy on #3. If someone claims they are a Christian (that is they say they trust the name of Jesus as their Lord and Savior) and they "attempt to appear Christian" -- how can you possibly know that they might not "follow the Christian path"? or are Christian at all?

Exactly what does it take to be a follower of Christ? Are you setting up some kind of competition? What if I "follow the path" better than you? Am I better than you?

How can anyone on planet earth even pretend to judge those who "are on the right path"? If God requires me to put Him first at all times in thought, word, and deed how could you or anyone else ever possibly know how I'm doing at that?

nameless56
16:27:15 Sat
Apr 8 2006

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

you cant know what is truly in their heart. you can never know if sumone truly follows christ, or is just saying so to be accepted. so for that you can not judge all christians on the act of any one "christian". you can not judge christians on Hitler, or any other person who claims to be christian, but only on the acts of the majority of people who are christians

T_J
11:56:21 Wed
Apr 12 2006

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

I guess, then, what you are saying in #3 is that if someone does an evil act while claiming to be Christian you want to be able to pull out #3 and say "Aha, but we don't know if he's a TRUE Christian". Therefore we can disown this evil act and it won't taint Christ's church.

Well, there is truth in your point but there is also danger. Of course all evil acts are to be condemned but our first response to those who commit the act should not be "You're not really a Christian"! That is a bogus and dangerous argument. It should make a Christian nervous about the consequences from his fellow Christians of his next sinful act against God.

If I am honest with myself, I clearly see that I am constantly doing evil in the sight of God. I don't want to but I do -- in thought, word, and deed. I recognize it and am sorry for it but I happens nonetheless.

The dangerous part comes when you might be talking about greater evil acts such as those of Hitler saying this guy was really evil and I'm just a bit evil therefore I have the right to judge him "evil" relative to me. But God's justice is absolute not relative.

Grace is grace. God is Judge.

honestquestioner
17:43:22 Sun
Apr 19 2009

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

I find it interesting that you and cyberen keep saying things like "the universe is expanding infinitely," and "like theoretical models can." You are claiming that Christianity is pointless because we can never know the whole truth (which is wrong, that's why there are scientists who believe in creation). But listen to yourself! "Theoretical models" and "educated guesses" are even more pointless!

Basing "SCIENTIFIC" study on guesswork is not true science! TRUE SCIENCE is based solely on observation. All these arguments about evolution and whatever are based on "historical science," which is not really science at all. You cannot assume that the way things are now is the way they were then, so current observations cannot actually tell you what happened thousands of years ago. Oh, they can definitely point to certain things, but to claim that "this is completely true because we are placing our assumptions on evidence from thousands of years ago using methods that are in themselves flawed," is to create a "science" that can never tell you anything.

Also, I'm just wondering, have any of you heard of Simon Greenleaf? He was the founder of Harvard Law School and was considered the world's FOREMOST AUTHORITY on EVIDENCE. He was an atheist. He was asked to put the Resurrection of Jesus to the test. He reviewed all the facts, considered all the testimonies. He dismissed anything and everything that would be inadmissable in a court of law. He concluded, BASED UPON THE EVIDENCE, that the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was as established an event as any other occurrence in history. Let's see, if the athiest who is the WORLD'S FOREMOST AUTHORITY ON EVIDENCE can be convinced by the Bible that Jesus really rose from the dead, and I'm sure none of you can come close to his credentials, then I am going to keep trusting in God and the Bible. That's called "research," and trusting in what is found. If you simply grab any seeming hole in an argument to fight against it without researching it, then you aren't actually interested in knowledge. You just want to destroy others' beliefs. And that is sadness personified.

honestquestioner
17:48:35 Sun
Apr 19 2009

Re: The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"

Epatto's thing of "Judge not" is a typical "i don't actually know the Bible and am afraid of how much Christianity is making sense now, so I'm going to get defensive" attitude. I've encountered it before. Christians who try to refute atheistic ATTACKS on the Bible and God aren't "being judgmental." They ARE following the teachings of Christ: mainly, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News." Don't tell us not to be judgmental, because we're not. YOU stop being judgmental, in terms of "I've heard that Christianity is false, so I'm going to always believe that, rather than research it for myself." I have researched many religions in my quest for truth, and Christ is the only One who stands up. No other God is even close to worth it, and no other belief makes as much sense. I'm not a "BLIND FOLLOWER." To be a Christian, you really do have to open your eyes.

The power of God...[counter]"ultimate argument against religion"
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