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nameless6745
18:47:57 Tue
Jan 20 2004

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Mood Now: Dejected
Post Mood: Dejected

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Re: amen godless!

ok maybe it won;t end there.


Politician answer!! how dare you!!:biggrin:

Seriously it can lead to progress if you choose to Learn from past mistakes. I have done this so it is true for me, now I don't expect it to be true for you there, buddy.

And fact of it is I never said that making mistakes is progress. So my previous statement is not a politician answer. This is a political answer:

"I haven't had a chance to ask the questioners the question they've been questioning."

George W. Bush
January 8th, 2001
Austin, Texas.




  
Trust_Jesus
21:58:34 Tue
Jan 20 2004

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Re: amen godless!

Quote: nameless6745 at 18:47:57 Tue Jan 20 2004

This is a political answer:

"I haven't had a chance to ask the questioners the question they've been questioning."

George W. Bush
January 8th, 2001
Austin, Texas.


Or:

"I have the answers to the questions no one is asking"

-TJ 2004

  
nameless6745
04:36:58 Wed
Jan 21 2004

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Re: amen godless!

see same meaning just the way you put it into words. this shouldn't surprise you Tj, i have said before that my words fail to get the meaning across on the internet sometimes.

  
Lycan_T
18:53:05 Mon
Mar 1 2004

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And the answer??

Alot has been said --- but what on the idea of hell??? Has anyone pointed out why the origional post is wrong?? :biggrin:

If I missed the answer....Sorry!

Quote: Probe_Phage at 02:15:13 Wed Jan 14 2004

The following is a post from sundragon2012 on http://www.christianforums.com/f13 . I have not seen a better argument against the concept of Hell in my life. Here it is:


BEGIN QUOTE----------------------------------------------------------
There is no way to eliminate all pain and tears without [at least one of the following]:

1. Removing the memory (which negates the value of physical life)

2. Altering one's perception of the memory (convincing someone that their spouse, child, lover, friend deserves to squeal and burn forevermore)

3. Removing your feelings of love for the doomed


Utter **** all around.

I don't know how anyone who has lets say teenage children who maybe don't believe, being rebellious as teens can be, who are killed in a car accident can believe that their own children deserve to burn.

I guess God puts you on some metaphysical heroin that just makes you forget about the children you loved until they were lets say 13, 14, and 15yrs old. Some drunk driver kills them, they never believed in Jesus or cared one way or another about salvation, and now while you are sipping pina coladas in paradise your kids are screaming for all eternity.

This is some of the more ridiculous, irrational and cruel nonsense that I have ever had the misfortune to witness. How can anyone believe this?

How about your husbands?

How about your wives?

How about your dearest friends?

If any one of the Christians here really believed that someone they loved with all their heart was going to be eternally tortured they would work day and night to get them saved. Realistically the thought of the impending torments your loved one is going to recieve would drive you mad.

How would you feel if tommorrow your loved ones were going into a Concentration Camp that would torture them for the rest of their lives? What would you not do to save them? And believe me, eternal torment is far, far worse then anything they could do to you in Auschwitz.

If you knew this all joy would turn to ash in your mouth and you would know nothing but sorrow and depression knowing that there is nothing you can do to save them, nothing. You can stand back and let them walk right into the camp and never see them again. You would go nuts with fear and grief.

Christianity (traditional fundamentalist form) is a cruel and irrational faith that asks that we accept the unacceptable. God will take all pain away, only if he lobotomizes your soul and removes the love you had for those that are now lost to you forever. You could never have joy if you knew those you love are suffering and will keep suffering forever.


Here's one of my problems with Hell. The unbelievable cruelty of the concept and the apparent ability of fundamentalists to rationalize, justify and even excuse the fact that the God they believe in is going to eternally torture (or allow to be tortured) for literally all of eternity. This is a horrific concept that makes Hitler's Concentration Camps look like a brief holiday. At least the horror ended.

The punishment that the God of the fundamentalists is going to dole out before the Great White Throne is infinitely worse than all of the combined cruelties devised by every twisted human mind in existance for no matter how terrible the human torment it ended with the mercy of death.

Then these same people would have us believe that a God capable of this is THE GOD OF LOVE or even, more unbelievably, LOVE itself. Calvanists go even further, claiming that God pre-ordains most of humanity for Hell to show his glory to those he chose to save.

I wonder if they realize just how horrible and evil this sounds to a rational, reasonable, thinking, moral human being. If they cannot then I fear for their sanity. I mean this. Actually, I do not believe that most fundamentalists (of any denomination) have actually emotionally accepted the sheer brutality of their beliefs. I hope they haven't.

Non-christian theists like myself and those who are atheists simply cannot accept the supposed "truth" offered by fundamentalists and the cognitive dissonance necessary to accept it as reality.

There is way too much of the....

How dare the pot judge the potter...(none of us are pots as pots don't feel).

We don't know what God's plan is, so we have to trust it....(it is easier to believe that the cruelty of Hell is a human invention as opposed to part of a divine plan).

God is bigger and badder than you and you better listen...(childish, just plain childish).

excuse making.

There is a lot more to write on the subject but the fact remains that Hell seems senseless and morally evil and apologetics defending it seem to be rationalizing and justifying the irrational and justifiable.

It's quite simple.

END QUOTE----------------------------------------------------------
And all I have to say is: damn straight.



And the answer??? :rotflmao:



---
All legends have roots, all myths could be real.
THE MORE A PERSON KNOWS, THE MORE DIFFICULT IT IS TO LIE TO THEM!
 
 
Xiao_Wun
17:59:00 Tue
May 4 2004

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Re: And the answer??

I've noticed that no one has been on the boards in quite awhile, but I thought I'd post anyway. Perhaps someone will wander through here.

As Lycan_T mentioned, this post went way off the original question, so I thought I'd offer my viewpoint of hell. And yes, I am a Christian (this board would be pretty boring without at least one or two of us posting every now and then).

Anyway, the original post mentioned several things I would like to address. The first:

"If any one of the Christians here really believed that someone they loved with all their heart was going to be eternally tortured they would work day and night to get them saved. Realistically the thought of the impending torments your loved one is going to recieve would drive you mad."

I do believe in hell and I do believe that non-believers go there. I know that idea isn't very popular here, but...

The above quote mentions someone a Christian loves with all of their heart going to hell and what they would do. My father is not a Christian and I love him with all of my heart - he is very dear to me and it breaks my heart that he will go to hell if he dies a non-believer. I do try to do everything that I can to "convert" him. I talk with him, I debate with him, and I try to live a life that reflects what I believe. If I were to drag him to church, shove my beliefs down his throat, call him everyday telling him that he is going to hell and to "repent now because the day of the Lord is coming!" just how effective would that be? Would it convince you? I doubt it. The below post uses the illustration of a loved one going to a concentration camp and what I would do to stop it. Everything in my power. However, if in the end, the person does not believe they are going to a concentration camp despite every piece of evidence I've shown them, after every emotional appeal that I have made - even if I were to stand in front of them and die trying to keep them from going, if they don't believe they are going then in the end there is nothing more that I can do to prevent them going to a concentration camp. Just as in the end, despite everything I do, if my father does not become a Christian then he will go to hell when he dies. And yes, this is the causes of a lot grief on my part - but it does not overwhelm me. Perhaps that sounds heartless, but I still have hope. And if he dies a non-believer I will be in pain and I will hurt and I will grieve and I will not understand why. This is where faith comes in - if I truly believe in God then I will just have to have faith. And I am sure many of you will see this as silly and a cop out - but it isn't.

The below post also mentions that God is all-loving. He is. Then why hell? Because there is so much more to God's character than just love. He is also a God of justice. If God is just, then those who go against him have to be punished. That means all of us. I gather from past posts that you all know gospel (and from a few of those comics that were posted - which even I have to admit are a bit, um...hmmmm - well, let's just say that I agree with a few of you on those). But anyway, God sent His Son to pay our debt so that we don't have to spend eternity in hell. A God who is holy and perfect is also just. If there is no hell, if in the end God is going to say "Hey, don't worry about it - I love you, come on in," not only is His character defiled, but the sacrifice of His Son was pointless - there was no need whatsoever. And that also means that I can do whatever I want because in the end it doesn't matter - either I die and nothing happens or I die and go to a better place. So I can lie, cheat, steal, murder...I basically have free reign because there is no moral law for me to follow and no reason for me to follow it.

Of course the idea of moral law, I imagine, opens up a whole different debate.



---
We are all worms, but I do believe I am a glow worm.
 
 
JesusRapedMe
17:16:22 Tue
May 25 2004

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Re: getting lazy again tj

All I have yto say is fucking duh You have to be pretty stupid to believe in God and Hell and Heaven and all that shit.

  
Janus_Zeal
12:49:16 Thu
May 27 2004

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Re: getting lazy again tj

Finally a nice influx of new people! You don't know how long I've been waiting for this.

Quote: Xiao_Wun

And yes, I am a Christian (this board would be pretty boring without at least one or two of us posting every now and then).


How very true.

Quote: Xiao_Wun

The above quote mentions someone a Christian loves with all of their heart going to hell and what they would do. My father is not a Christian and I love him with all of my heart - he is very dear to me and it breaks my heart that he will go to hell if he dies a non-believer. I do try to do everything that I can to "convert" him.


Are you sure it's your father that needs to be converted? I have generally bad luck, and I always figured that when I die, I would end up in somebody's Hell because I'm sure I've pissed off every God ever thought of at this point. But I'm content with that.

I would rather burn in a million Hells than stop being true to myself and conforming to a belief that is most likely not true solely based on "faith". As far as I'm concerned, faith is for the gullible. Or at least the blind faith that people put in Christianity anyway.

Quote: Xiao_Wun

If I were to drag him to church, shove my beliefs down his throat, call him everyday telling him that he is going to hell and to "repent now because the day of the Lord is coming!" just how effective would that be? Would it convince you?


Absolutely not, and I'm glad to see that you don't resort to such measures.

Quote: Xiao_Wun

Just as in the end, despite everything I do, if my father does not become a Christian then he will go to hell when he dies.


Doesn't this concept just scream of ridiculousness? It's like something out of a child's imagination. What kind of a loving God would even consider sending someone to Hell? It makes no sense at all! Even with original sin or whatever, how does that even phase God? Do you realize what kind of God your following here? Generous to those who obey and merciless to those who question. It kind of disgusts me to think about it.

Quote: Xiao

And that also means that I can do whatever I want because in the end it doesn't matter - either I die and nothing happens or I die and go to a better place. So I can lie, cheat, steal, murder...I basically have free reign because there is no moral law for me to follow and no reason for me to follow it.


Yeah, see this is the way it is for Christians too. For Christians, it doesn't matter how much you've sinned, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior. So they can get away with all those things as well. The concept that so many evil people can get into heaven so easilly probably burns me more than anything else about Christianity.

How do they usually put it..."we're saved by grace, not by deeds". It doesn't matter how much of a good person you are, if you're not a Jesus freak, then you're off to Hell, no ifs, ands or buts. I still accept the possibility that Christianity might be true, although it's extremely small. All I know is, if I end up going before the Christian god when I die, I'm definately flipping him off before he sends me to Hell.

The idea that God is just, so he must send people to Hell is a load of shit too. The only ones he sends are non-believers, doesn't that make you a little suspicious? I think Christianity was developed by people who want to control others.






---
"They cut my two middle fingers down, but my dick is still standing!"

- Janus
 
 
sharsung
00:54:36 Mon
Jun 28 2004

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janus!

my dear friend, if i'm sure of anything it is this: you are not going to hell...of course there is no hell anyways, but if there were, someone as kindhearted as you would not be sent there...xtians (and those around them) have it really tough; they're commanded to preach to everyone and convert all the pagans and heathens and unbelievers, but us pagans, heathens and unbelievers already know the truth, know xtianity is propaganda and lies.<P>

if god is a god of love, hell can't be possible...and if hell isn't possible and jesus really lived, he came for some other purpose...to remind us of the truth? to apologize to humanity for god's atrocities against us? whatever, the church got ahold of his life and words and perverted them...the biggest fraud ever perpetrated against humanity...<P>

for some interesting perspectives on the mess bush is creating for our world, try visiting arabia.com and see how the arab world thinks...enlightening! love, shar

  
victorthecleaner
10:33:56 Sun
Jul 11 2004

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i'll bite

"if the bible really was god's message to us humans, you'd think god would have managed to make it clear and understandable, to people of all times, in all languages, cultures and geographical locations..."


Jesus narrowed down his teachings, for the sake of those who were never going to be able to understand the deeper meanings contained in the bible, to these two rules: 1. Love your god
2. Love others as yourself

Are you implying that there are people out there who would fail to understand this?

"something as simple as this passage: "evil" vs "compassion" makes it clear: the bible isn't clear...we all get to make up our own minds about it...tj proves here he doesn't take it literally and he's claimed previously that he doesn't, as many xtians these days are forced to (otherwise they'd look like raving idiots)..."

Are you implying that you believe the bible should be taken literally by it's followers? Anybody who has read the bible and tried to understand it knows that it is a metaphor, for the most part, written in symbolic stories. it's not about being "forced" into anything, a christian is free to throw the bible in the bin at any given time but if he wants to really understand the bible then he'd do well to realise that for the most part it is NOT to be taken literally.

You seem to be deliberately implying that it should be taken literally for the sake of ridiculing christians when i'd guess that you know yourself that it isn't to be taken literally.

"so what are we left with? we live in a world we can either embrace and protect (embracing and protecting eachother would be nice too), or we can be at perpetual war..."

Let's get one thing straight right now: war is a product of the human condition, NOT of religion. You could wake up tomorrow in a world devoid of any religion or any faith in god and war would still be rife.

"after decades of study my main conclusion is this: the #1 principle of life must be UNITY; if it brings people together in a spirit of peace, love, etc., it is good...if it doesn't, if, like xtianity, it promotes hate, prejudice, disharmony, then it's bad"

Christianity promotes all these traits now does it? You must be reading a different version of the bible to me. Last i checked Jesus forgave the men who nailed him to a plank of wood - how in any way shape or form does this promote anything other than forgiveness and compassion?

"..even xtians can't agree amongst themselves what to believe...over 33,000 different religions and denominations based on the bible tells me all i need to know..."

The truth is hard to find and everyone is coming at it from their own angle, christians and non-christians alike. If it tells you all you need to know then maybe you aren't seeking the right knowledge?

In my mind it is a common error of thought to judge god and christianity by the people who "represent" it when most of them haven't a clue themsleves.

i have also failed to notice in the posts of yours that i have read any excerpts from the new testament -which is in layman's terms the chrisitan part of the bible where the old testament is the jewish part - like i said, to over-simplify for the sake of clarity. Yet you lock horns solely with christians over verses from the old testament, not the new - why is this?

"toss the book, keep the love...if we all just did that, we'd heal the planet... "

I fail to believe that someone who comes across as an intelligent and reasonable person as you do could believe that for a second.

have a good one.


V

  
WikiDKlown
08:51:26 Mon
Jul 19 2004

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Re: i'll bite

<activly eats popcorn>

someone keep this going

  
lreadl
05:01:32 Mon
Jul 26 2004

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Re: i'll bite

Pardon me if this has already been mentioned.

The idea of hell as eternal punishment is inherently immoral. The problem is the 'eternal' bit. That means forever. My point is, no one deserves eternal punishment. I'll use the most difficult possible case as my example. Hitler does not deserve eternal punishment. Yes, he is evil. Yes, he deserves punishment. Yes, he deserves a great deal of punishment. But no, he does not deserve to be punished forever. Let's design his personal hell. Let's say we take all the painful experiences of all the people he caused to suffer, on the battlefield, in the concentration camps, the people who were killed, the people who were tortured physically and psychologically, and their friends and loved ones who suffered the loss. Record all this experience, from the point of view of the people who lived it, every second of every day of every year of the war and all the years afterward during which people suffered as a result of Hitler's actions. Record all this, and in hell, Hitler has to live all those painful experiences he caused as punishment.

Maybe that's not enough. Let's say you take all that, and loop it. Make him go through it all 10 times over. Nah, better make it 100 times. Heck, for the sake of argument, we might as well say 1000 times. Or 1000000, it doesn't really matter. Let's say that's what Hitler deserves. That is a finite amount of time. Hitler does not deserve to suffer longer than that. Forever is longer than even he deserves. In fact, compared to forever, all that I just described is merely a drop in the bucket. What I just described is less than 1% of forever, in fact it's a negligible fraction of forever. Forever is infinitely more. Eternal punishment is infinitely more than even the worse sinner deserves. The reason is very simple. Human life is finite. There is only a finite amount of harm you can do in your life. There is no way you can deserve eternal punishment. So that idea of hell is immoral.

  
Enlightened101
01:04:51 Tue
Jul 27 2004

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Re: i'll bite

holy shit, that is fucking brilliant! Man, i'm am going to be plagurising that all over the fucking place! brilliant!




---
------------------
Bite me
 
 
X_muslim
21:24:56 Thu
Oct 7 2004

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Re: i'll bite

yea great idea. but even that does not cover the other side... lets say you where a goooood boy no wonderful and prayed every day matter fact you were the best there is to pray.... and when you die you go to heaven. well. here is the problem....

What is the best thing you like to do? eat ice-cream?, maybe play football??? or maybe have sex, eat chock let, date girls, fuck men? i donít know but what ever you like you can do over and over and over and over and over to the point where you are sick of it. well i agree you love to do allllooooot of things you start with eating move on to sex then move on to having sex with the same sex and then move on to playing succor and then move on to swimming. and soooooo on. well the problem is that time does not end and one day you would have done everything there is to do. not once not twice but more than you really wanted to do it. you are going to get board and maybe go crazy ....!!!! well then that is torture?? isn't ? that is why humans are mortal and don't live for ever if they did they would kill them selves and for that reason i prove to you that there is not heaven nor hellll.

  
Felixm
01:48:05 Sun
Feb 13 2005

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Re: amen godless!

Quote: Trust_Jesus at 14:19:47 Tue Jan 20 2004

Quote: nameless6745 at 04:39:12 Tue Jan 20 2004

I never said making mistakes is progress. But I will say it can lead to progress.


What kind of politician's answer is that!

Quote: nameless6745 at 04:39:12 Tue Jan 20 2004

And age has nothing to do with it. A five year old could learn not to do something that a 30 year old still has not come to understand. It is personal experience, it differs with every person. Its up to the individual if they want to learn form there mistakes and better them and PROGRESS.
But then again as you have made so clear some people wish not to see it this way. Oh well.

Again I will say do what you need to do TJ.


I agree that it's possible that a 30 year old has not learned the mistake lesson that a 5 year old has made and learned because, yes, people are different.

You then move on to say if an individual "wants to learn" they can. The implication is that it's somehow it's only the lazy or disinterested that WON'T progress from making mistakes.

But where do we see this? Our nation went through the Vietnam war under the banner of 'nation-building' with devastating consequences. After that ordeal we as a nation were universally agreed that we don't fight such wars.

But now that very generation who FOUGHT the folly of Vietnam (Sen. Kerry for example) voted in favor (as did most of America) on another nation-building exercise in Iraq only 40 years later.
Is the nation stupid?
Did the nation not learn from Vietnam?
Is the nation mentally ill?
No, the nation made a mistake.

Yet your model would predict that this mistake would not have been made.


Uh... the bible says the God put these people in power.
Then that means God wants them to be corrupt.
All the people in the 3rd world countries with leaders that kill without mercy.

  
Child_uv_KoRn
04:09:55 Sun
Apr 10 2005

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Re: we're in agreement once again, probe!

Quote: Trust_Jesus at [br


Be true to yourself -- cool. As long are you never make mistakes.


Don't worry, I won't make any mistakes when i'm slitting ur throats and laughing as ur "god" is powerless against a mere mortal.



---
I'm trapped in this world, lonely and fading, heart-broke and waiting for you to come. We are stuck in this world, that's not meant for me, for me.
 
 
Janus_Zeal
07:56:19 Tue
Apr 26 2005

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Re: we're in agreement once again, probe!

Quote: Child_of_corn

Don't worry, I won't make any mistakes when i'm slitting ur throats and laughing as ur "god" is powerless against a mere mortal.

I somehow get the feeling that you don't have the balls to slit anyone's throat. You just sound to me like a rebellious teen trying to get out his angst through idle threats.



---
"They cut my two middle fingers down, but my dick is still standing!"

- Janus
 
 
Phalanx
02:07:56 Thu
Apr 28 2005

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Re: we're in agreement once again, probe!


Quote: Mad kid

Don't worry, I won't make any mistakes when i'm slitting ur throats and laughing as ur "god" is powerless against a mere mortal.


you're still making me laugh, what are you, like 10? did you ever hear this little saying: "he who angers me controls me"? Youre obviously angy which means youre under gods control. <I wish I could be there when he reads this, id probably suffocate whilst laughing or get my throat slit one, ha!>


whats wrong with this kid?

  
Child_uv_KoRn
06:53:09 Fri
Apr 29 2005

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blasphemer


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Re: we're in agreement once again, probe!

[/QUOTE]

you're still making me laugh, what are you, like 10? did you ever hear this little saying: "he who angers me controls me"? Youre obviously angy which means youre under gods control. <I wish I could be there when he reads this, id probably suffocate whilst laughing or get my throat slit one, ha!>


whats wrong with this kid? [/quote]

I thought I told u, I'm 20. Yeah, u definitely be gettin the throat slit =) Anger doesn't control me cuz i can't get away with what i want to do, and even then, i would be out of control killing sooooo many ppl, but it would be fun. Some day...maybe....i'll get my wish. That is the only hope i have for anything, well, that and to die.



---
I'm trapped in this world, lonely and fading, heart-broke and waiting for you to come. We are stuck in this world, that's not meant for me, for me.
 
 
TDbear
07:05:11 Fri
Apr 29 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

dude, you have some serious issues

  
Phalanx
22:23:31 Fri
Apr 29 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

10 year old trapped in the body of a 20 year old. youre so damn entertaining. Are you on any kind of medication? do you have a criminal record? Anger doesnt control your body directly but it controls your thoughts and if youre stupid enough youll let that control your actions, but I think youre too cowardly to do that. Get real man, youre not going to slit anyones throat even if you could get away with it, youre probably the biggest chicken shit pussy ever. Youre probably one of those fat (as in obese) pathological liars too. I bet you've never been laid. Yup, looking at the shitty life you have I understand why you think you want to slit throats. There is something majorly wrong with you,


Quote: Mad kid

Anger doesn't control me cuz i can't get away with what i want to do, and even then, i would be out of control killing sooooo many ppl, but it would be fun. Some day...maybe....i'll get my wish. That is the only hope i have for anything, well, that and to die.




Let me say again, youre messed up,

is it sinking in? youre crazy,

one more time, youre a huge lunatic.

later man

[2 edits; Last edit by Phalanx at 22:28:01 Fri Apr 29 2005]

  
holy_frog
18:51:40 Sun
May 1 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

Good point there lreadl! the image we are given in the bible is of a loving God. a God who loves all his children (everyone, or so we are told) equally. the whole point of Jesus coming to make a new covenant was so that he could create a new covenant with God and everyone. the whole concept of the universalism of God is called into question when we mention hell. if this God loves me, for example, he would never allow me to burn in indescribable torture for all eternity. if he did not want to give me a straight path to heaven he could give me a sign.

but no.
the god who loves me so much that he sent his son to his death to save me and all my kind will sooner condemn me and billions like me to hell than make any effort at all to change our fate.

i will ask any christian on this board why God doesn't rescue us? why he is going to send us to hell because we haven't embraced his teachings? consider a child growing up in a strongly atheist family, indoctrinated this way their entire life, this child, according to the bible, has never had a chance at heaven but will be sent to hell by his all-forgiving creator.

  
TDbear
21:33:50 Sun
May 1 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

the entire concept of 'hell' as christianity portrays it is so contrary to the 'loving' god concept for one simple reason.

christianity has been around for just under 2000 years, whereas the concept of hell was only introduced during the 15/16th century, when science was really starting to kick off and the church felt threatened... so the simplest way to regain control of the masses was to threaten them with punishment for their sins.

that is why we are going to hell unless we accept jesus, and thats why if you mention the whole "but jesus died for MY sins, which means it doesn't matter if i do bad, coz i'll be forgiven", the church has a bitch fit

  
Loved_by_God
15:23:36 Mon
May 2 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

The reason people go to hell is not because God is not loving enough to take them there. The reason anyone would go to hell is because of sin. Gos created humans to dwell among them and to live with them, but sin corrupted that. If you read John 3, JEsus gives a really good explanation of why He came to the earth, and why God sent him. It says he did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save those who believed in his name.

Also, God is not only all loving, but he is also a God of Justice, fairness, and faithfulness.

  
TDbear
16:58:05 Mon
May 2 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

thats a good viewpoint.

but if you lived before the 15th/16th century, there would be no need to think like that because there was no 'hell' or punishment of sin

  
YoUnderdog
22:03:03 Tue
Jun 7 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

To address the "repent" issue earlier stated. God can't change. But He can respond to others changing, ex. when Mose pleaded for the Isrealites, the Ninivites repented, all putting on sackcloth and putting ashes on their head. But remember God eventally leveled Nineveh when they went back to their wickedness, and gave Isreal to other nations when they were acting like a bunch of donkeys. Its the same today. It we are sincere, and repent ourselves, He can respond to our change. But even myself, if I start acting like an ass, God can certainly respond to that too, and has.

  
TDbear
10:59:11 Thu
Jun 9 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

god cant respond to anything you do, if he exists, then he exists outside of time and space, so he cannot interfere with anything. something that is not bound by the laws of this universe, anythignt hat exists on a differnt plane cannot directly affect anything on this one

(well except for a celestial war, and one is due fairly soon)

God cannot answer prayers, because he would already know what, where, when you were going to pray before you were even born, so if he was going to answer it, it would already be done.


also... why cant God change? what authority gave you the right to make sucha claim? surely if he is a god, God can do ANYTHING.

he can lay circles on a sheet of paper with no gaps and no over lapping

he can create a rock too heavey for even himself to lift

he can most definitly change, afterall, he has the same human characteristics as us; jealousy, arogant, compassion, love, wrath. and since HE is always refered to as being male, surely he can change his own gender if he wants.
[1 edits; Last edit by TDbear at 11:00:14 Thu Jun 9 2005]

  
YoUnderdog
14:22:54 Thu
Jun 9 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

Yes, God does exist outside of space and time, but He can and does directly affect things on this plane for those who ask Him. Yes, He already knows what we need before we ask Him, and already knows what we are going to ask before we ask it. But He tells us to ask Him for things, and that we don't have, because we don't ask. I don't understand it! Thats the part were its hard to understand why He, being so much higher than us in everything would want to have anything to do with us.

He does answer prayers as many of mine have been answered, and many others have been, as most here would scoff at anyway, so its counterproductive to share them.

He has some of our attributes, but not the worldly ones, with He referrs to as demonic, ex. self seeking..

As for the matter of gender. Yes He refers to himself as male. We were created in the image and likeness of God. But check this out. Male was created first, probably with all the gender attributes of God. But He took part of those attributes to make a woman, so a man and a woman are not complete without eachother, the reason why men and women marry eachother. They are different, but are suuposed to compliment eachother in this thing called life. The pharisees asked Jesus about a woman being married and having widowed 7 men, who she would be married to in heaven. Jesus said, she wouldn't be married in heaven, but be like the angels. All the angels I have read about in the bible have male names. I imaging Jesus was saying in heaven we are complete, and have both characteristics. The bible talks about us being totally changed when we get to heaven, and I am betting this is part of that change.

  
TDbear
15:45:53 Thu
Jun 9 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

let me guess, he refers to himself as male in the bible?

anywhere else?

mostly none of what you said made much sense, probably because (as you said yourself) you dont even understand it. but you accept it anyway?

heres an analogy for you.

a man comes up to you on the street, dressed very professionally. he shows you his id and andthing else that would make him easily identifiable, and he offers you a briefcase. he knows you will ask what is in the case, and why he is offering it to you, but he wants you to ask anyway. now in situation A you do ask those questions, he gives no answer, but gives you the case anyway... situation B, you dont ask, and he retracts the offer. is that similar?

well, in the case of gender, i would have to say, even if he didn't say it himself, he would definitly have to be male, coz in the words of George Carlin

"no woman would or could fuck things up this badly"

the bible makes 90% of its references to anything as males, Moses did this, Abraham said that, the angel Gaebriel came here. the only references to women are negative to say the least. a woman asks for the head of john the baptist. mary magdaline is repainted by the catholic church to be a whore, eve was the first to be tempted by satan and ate the fruit.

the bible is handbook written by men for men to demeen and control women and weaker men.

Quote: younderdog

He has some of our attributes, but not the worldly ones, with He referrs to as demonic, ex. self seeking..


"Thou shalt worship no other god before ME"

if that isn't 'self-seeking', 'arogant', 'proud', 'egotisitical' then i dont know what is.

of what i've read of 'God' from many sources (including a number of bible passages), 'God' is the most selfish, self-centered, arogant, not-worthy-of-anything-let-alone-worship-son of a bitch who ever (might have) existed.

maybe he wants to interfere in our lives coz hes bored? maybe he doesn't have a plan; maybe he IS just a little kid with a magnifying glass on a sunny day.

  
YoUnderdog
14:00:36 Fri
Jun 10 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

I could refute you but I would be wasting my time. Maybe I'll talk to you later.

  
ragdoll_romance
00:55:54 Sun
Jun 12 2005

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Re: The Best Argument Against Hell I Have Ever Seen

the question i am wondering about is the origional post... is this person saying that they believe there is no heaven either... -amber

  

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