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godless420 01:36:04 Tue Sep 27 2005 Offline 3 posts blasphemer Reply |
Why would God knowingly create a person whom he "knows" will ultimately reject him and thus ending up in eternal damnation? Assuming there are Atheists, other religions, etc. not everyone will have the pleasure of going to heave... SO if God "knows" what everyone will do, and had created them to do so, WHY would he make someone who he knows will end up in hell?
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TDbear 07:01:38 Wed Sep 28 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop   Reply |
because hes an eight year old and a spiteful one at that
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Trust_Jesus 15:34:51 Tue Oct 4 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
Excellent point. I wish more people would examine the fundamentals like you are. I could give you the standard Catholic answer which is that we essentially must save ourselves by choosing Jesus or the protestant answer which is that we have a free will to reject or accept Jesus. I, instead, will appeal to simple logic. Looking at the evidence. We know people. We know people who claim to be atheist. We know people who claim to be atheist and have died. Now, what can we conclude? Do we know where these "atheists" are heaven or hell? Do we even know the heart of a person who claims to be an atheist? Do we know what truths and what clarity comes to a person as they die? I agree with you that the bible clearly teaches that God knew us and made us just the way we are. (Jer 1:5) |
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TDbear 16:46:35 Tue Oct 4 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
ummm, they are atheists, so un until the very moment they die, they dont believe anything will happen to them except that their body will shut down, and their conciousness will become nothing, they will no feel, or know anything anymore. they dont believe they have a soul or a spirit so they wont 'go' to either because niether exist. that is what 'we' know about them. what your saying is completely reliant on your personal beliefs. to you, because they 'claim to be atheists', they have not accepted christ and so, by all 'christian' logic, they are in hell. the same goes for me, because i believe in reencarnation and multiple lives, this 'atheist' does have a soul... or, more accuratly, this atheist exists as a soul, and when its 'body' shuts down, he is transfered into a new 'body'. the answer to your last comment is simple.... No we dont know 'what truths are revealed to him', so for as we know, you could be right, i could be right, or what i said an atheist believe could be right. Yes its all well and good that you agree as to WHAT the bible teaches about God knowing us... but that doesn't answer Godless's question as to 'why, if he knows what said person is going to do (i.e jegect him) and thus will send him to hell, why did he create that person in the first place?' |
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Trust_Jesus 18:08:02 Wed Oct 5 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
I thought we were all about facts here on no-god.com? I don't know that even one person now resides in hell after Jesus came. So I can't possibly know for a fact that God DID create a person and sent them to hell. This is all speculation, that's what I was trying to point out earlier. So, if this situation has occured, I don't know what God's reasoning would be for it. I do not understand God's ways. Sounds like a cop-out and I guess it is. |
Tsukatu  20:48:21 Wed Oct 5 2005 Offline 177 posts inquisitor Reply |
Wow. That brings up a funny point. Do Protestants believe that their God is omniscient? If they do, I will add them to the list of religious sects that are unspeakably retarded (including things like Scientology). C'mon now... if their God is omniscient, and they believe that God doesn't know what choices they will make in life and where they will end up... wow.
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TDbear 09:31:19 Thu Oct 6 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
if you dont understand something, why do you believe it?
sure, i dont understand a lot of things about science, but i have seen and read things that basically 'dum' it down and help me to try and understand it. From what your saying... God hasn't done that... he Does things and expects you just to accept it and believe... some God you got there |
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Tsukatu 06:50:33 Fri Oct 7 2005 Offline 177 posts inquisitor Reply |
Let me ask you this then, LBG and TJ:
When you were a child, did you hate it when your parents would tell you to do something that you found unreasonable, and had all attempts to argue/reason back answered with a "don't argue - just do it?" Don't you agree that if an authority figure helps you see that their decisions are rational, then you have an easier time submitting yourself to their authority? Isn't that an intelligent thing to do as a leader, to let your followers understand why you are doing what you're doing? So this God of yours, then, gave us senses, reason, and intelligence, and then asks us to abandon all of that and not question his existence, is that right? I just... I can't see that, I'm sorry. I don't know why you'd worship such a God. Additionally: God is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity. God made us, we faulty humans. And then God punishes us? First off, he knows what we're going to do, so he knows he'll end up punishing us, and salvation is useless. Secondly, he's allegedly an intelligent guy, but he's blaming us for being fallible, just as he made us. Thirdly, he's omnipotent and omnibenevolent, but still refuses to eliminate the evil in the world that we may all live in Heaven with him. Fourth, he's omnibenevolent, but he condemns a significant portion of his own creations to eternal torture. Fifth, most important, it's really his own fault we're faulty because he made us this way, which means he's punishing us for his own mistakes, and that doesn't seem very omnibenevolent or intelligent to me.
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TDbear 11:11:42 Fri Oct 7 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
here here
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Trust_Jesus 12:55:50 Fri Oct 7 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
You bring up a unique angle that I'd not thought of before. Yes, that's it, in a way, God has 'dumbed down' the process of following Him. After demonstrating how difficult it can be follow God, he presents us with Jesus Christ who says but one thing to us by his own calling (not our discovery): I am the way to everlasting life. The bible never says that through logic and reason you will come to know God. In fact it says just the opposite. The ways of God are foolishness to man. |
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Trust_Jesus 13:20:19 Fri Oct 7 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
Don't you see? If I am a child regardless of whether my parent says "Just do it" or "Here's all the lovely reasons why it's in your best interest not to do this". The result is the same. If the parent forces the "right" path on the child, the child will not like it. Agree? If the child was convinced by the logic of the parent it would not be a child without experience, it would be another adult with simlar experiences.
Almost right. God FORCES us to abandon all of that and the Bible states that he's fully aware that we will question his existance, at times reject Him, and be angry with Him in the same way a child is angry at the parent at times. God gives us intelligence, senses, and reason to be about the work of man not of God. As a software programmer, my software is useful but the design I've given it does not make it somehow able to understand me. I'm compelled to worship this God. I did not "decide" to choose God or calmly and rationally pick which religious system best suited my idea of what reality is.
We are the crown of his creation and we were not created sinful (faulty), we were created with the ability to sin. I understand your human logic here perfectly clear. In fact, it's the single most compelling logical argument against a benevolent God. We say "See, he's set us up to fail, don't buy it!!!!!". It's fun to speculate on what the truth of the matter could actually be (again, I don't pretend to know the mind of God). But let me have some fun with it in good ole' logical terms: 1. God knowingly created us with the ability to reject Him and his ways if we choose. We are not robots (like the animals are--incapable of displeasing God). 2. But God provided a plan to pardon every human being who ever walked the earth in Jesus Christ before Adam and Eve even sinned (because as you point out, he foreknew we would). There are no strings attached to this plan of salvation whatsoever (murderer on the cross) 3. How can their be no strings attached if God requires us to believe in Jesus Christ BEFORE we can take this "free gift"? Doesn't sound "free" to me. 4. Point 3 is where you get all the branches of Christianity -- everyone pays lip service to the "free" part but then add on a bunch of things you've got to do. 5. The interesting part is that your POV is lends itself much closer to my understanding of Christianity as Jesus taught it, in that salvation is a free gift. If it is, then God is not creating people to send to hell that he is saving everyone he creates. You've put your finger on the issue completely. As my screename implies, I'm simply believe as God allows me to and follow Jesus with God's help. |
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Tsukatu 02:28:15 Tue Oct 11 2005 Offline 177 posts inquisitor Reply |
TJ, you've done a better job of failing to impress me than I had expected.
You can call yourself a child. I'll call myself a rational, thinking human being. While you can submit that you don't have all knowledge, I'll instead say that I'm questing for knowledge. The point wasn't that you were a child. The point was to demonstrate a blatant flaw in obeying orders without question. I'd like you to answer the question again, please. Do you think that being aware of why you're being asked to carry out orders would help you feel right in carrying out those orders?
The software you program is not intelligent. That comparison is incredibly far from relevant.
Your belief in the specific God you believe in has no intelligence or reason behind it. That certainly does make sense to me.
First off, that's the same thing. But also, "original sin."
What? What the fuck do you think "omniscient" means? He commands all knowledge, and "all" happens to include the choice any individual is going to make. He gave us the ability to reject him, and he knows exactly who will use that ability. Your response to #1 does not address the issue at all.
Okay, I get what you're saying. Let me explain to you how I see it. God made us, and God gave us the ability to sin. Next, God gave us a process that needs to be followed in order for us to go to Heaven. So instead of being a nice guy and letting us all go to Heaven, He's asking us to go through this superfluous process? Doesn't seem efficient or loving. Have you also considered that asking us to go through this process is asking us to take up a burden? What a loving guy this God of yours is. "Do this for your whole life, for no good reason. It'll be hard on you sometimes, but I don't care." Your #3 agrees with my view of your #2. Your #4 completely avoids the issue as well. I don't care that people ask you to do more stuff. That has nothing to do with God's benevolence. God loves us all, but he's sending us all to Hell. What the fuck is up with that?
As we can clearly see, your God is an idiot. Let put it this way: Let's say you came upon an anthill. You decide to deprive this anthill of food for a while. The ants become hungry, and you feel bad about it, because you've grown to like these ants. But, instead of just giving them back the food source you took away, you give individual ants one bit of food at a time, and rely on those ants distributing that food to every last one of the other ants. Isn't that less efficient? And wouldn't more ants die that way? I wouldn't say that it looks like you cared for those ants, and I definitely wouldn't say that you dealt with assisting the ants in any intelligent way.
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TDbear 12:16:59 Tue Oct 11 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
wow, tsukatu, i'm actually impressed.
what i mean to say is that i had the same responses, but you psted them in a much better way than i could lol |
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Trust_Jesus 13:23:29 Tue Oct 11 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
Ha! You're supposed to put this ^ at the end of the post that way it appears you have an open mind on the subject 
Hey friend, you used the "parent" and "child" analogy not me. I agree with you that it's an accurate model of the God/man relationship so I don't know why you are running from it now? As a rational thinking human being questing for knowledge how are you doing? Any closer to discovering the origins of the universe than you were last year? or the year before? Learning anything new?
All software is created by intelligence. That human software programmers are not capable of programming intelligence into our creations merely demonstrates how vastly inferior we are to our designer. So I disagree -- it's incredibly relevant.
Your belief in the specific God you believe in has no intelligence or reason behind it. That certainly does make sense to me.
The ability to crash my car is the same as crashing my car?!
1. There is no process that needs to be followed in order for us to go to heaven. Salvation is the free gift of God in Jesus. You don't get free gifts by following processes. A free gift is a free gift. 2. You are correct that God does know what you will choose before you choose it. But the Bible is also clear that Jesus Christ was in the plan before Adam and Eve first sinned. 3. Compare the length of a human lifetime to all time in the universe. If what God says is true, how can I complain about 80 years of difficulty (at worst) to an infinite existance in God's presence? It's totally irrelevant yet you look at it like it's your entire existance.
God sends no one to hell. He's already given you and me salvation. It's a free gift. What part of "free gift" makes you think salvation is being denied to anyone? The problem for those who really understand themselves is that they realize they don't WANT to be given anything. You see if I accept a free gift that means I'm a charity case. It means I can't do it on my own. It means I'm not rational and not intelligent and not questing anymore doesn't it? So keep your free gift God, I don't need it.
Your example does accurately portray your view I think but there are the same few inaccuracies: 1. I don't "come upon" the anthill, I create the anthill and the ants so I don't like them, I love them. 2. I want the ants to depend upon me for food. 3. It appears to be more inefficient to the ant but what does an ant know? 4. The ant looks at a small slice of eternity and makes an incorrect judgement about his creator. |
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TDbear 14:15:11 Tue Oct 11 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
the 'parent-child' anaolgy cannot be used to support an argument FOR christianity because children grow up and no longer need the parent! there is no such thing as eternal childhood, so if god is the parent and humanity is his children, then the children are going to grow up and god will be left alone!
that argument relies on your beliefs being the correct ones! As i supect, tsukatu doens't believe that we have a 'designer' and we weren't 'created', so saying that to him is pointless.
i think what he means was that yes adam and eve weren't created sinful. but we are because our very DNA is stained with their original sin. biatch hehe |
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godless420 20:38:42 Fri Oct 14 2005 Offline 3 posts blasphemer Reply |
So if I understand you correctly, you are saying your not sure if anyone has gone to hell since Jesus had come around. You are saying that as people die, regardless of belief, a realization of God may come to them. However, if someone were to actually be sent to hell, you cannot understand why. I cannot understand why you would believe in such a theory... Certainly heaven and hell are major factors of your religion and beliefs and to not understand one of the major factors gives me a sense of emptiness instead of comfort. What about the time before Jesus? Did everyone go to hell? I'm sure glad I get to die after Jesus did! What about the secluded tribes in Africa where Christianity was never taught? Do ALL these people automatically go to hell? |
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Tsukatu 08:50:00 Sat Oct 15 2005 Offline 177 posts inquisitor Reply |
As it so terribly confused you (that you went completely off on a tangent), I'm moving away from the things that confuse you and attempting to use much simpler, more direct methods of communication. Don't worry, I won't try anything like that again. Your brain can rest.
Oh yes, definitely. Today I visited Boston's Fine Arts Museum, Aquarium, and Science Museum. That stuff is fascinating. I'm gaining more and more knowledge. Meanwhile, you can tell me how you're doing. What's it like being told, "God did everything, don't bother trying to figure stuff out" every Sunday, killing off any possibly ambitions to discover the function of reality for yourself? How's that working out for you? I still say a lightning rod atop a church shows a lack of conviction.
That is soooo far on a tangent. Omigawd. We're talking about a possibly analogy that works with "God:man." You provided "programmer:software," and I said you were on crack. And now you go off an ramble about how this does work because it shows we're stupid creations of God? What the fuck is that all about? It really is my fault, though. I should've realized you couldn't handle the concept of an analogy sooner. I swear I'll stop, you poor thing, you.
The "same thing" was referring to my response, you imbecile. Can you retain information from more than one thread at a time? Holy shit. I meant it was the "same thing" in that it was God's giving mankind the ability to be faulty, which is a pretty retarded thing to do for a god, as we've seen.
That's pretty cool. In #1, you say there is no process. That is to say, no course of action that needs to be followed in order to get into Heaven. You say it's a free gift. But hey, check it out, you say there's a "plan" in #2. Sounds like a chain of expected events/actions to me. Contradictory? Of course! 90% of the Bible is! I don't know where you think you're going with #3, cuz it's just plain irrelevant. Mmkay, I need to go cuz it's 4:50 AM for me right now. I'll just point out that you're stupid, and that you're closer to your idea of God's creation (an idiot human) than me, which does well to explain why you're a Christian and I'm the opposite: reasonable. |
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Trust_Jesus 13:17:10 Mon Oct 17 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
You understand me correctly.
Correct again, a close example being the murderer on the cross next to Jesus.
Yes, heaven and hell are major factors in Chrisitianity. But you apparently didn't know that ONLY factor that separates those going to heaven and those going to hell is the condition of their soul relating to God. I don't know the condition of anyone's soul so I can't make the statements you make. Apparently you are under the impression that if people SAY they don't believe that means they don't believe in their deepest soul now and they WILL never beleive before they die. Also, I would introduce you to the concept of a 'lie' oft told by humans for a variety of motivations. We have elaborate systems of juris prudence because humans lie profusely. So how can one assume honesty when it comes to spiritual matters?
I meant "after Jesus came" simply to correlate the words of Jesus spoke of heaven and hell. There was no "before Jesus". God's plan of salvation including Jesus was older than Adam and Eve themselves. The bible says that knowledge of God is coded into everyone's heart without a bible or a baptism. The human soul knows who is God. Now, the human mind is corrupt does not wish to acknowledge God as creator. Instead, it acknowledges itself as god (atheism) or acknowledges a god of its own making where self-righteousness can be acheived/earned. All I am saying is that I don't really know what's in the deepest recesses of any other person's mind and since you MUST know that to know if someone goes to heaven or hell, I can't possible know if anyone has gone to hell (or heaven), pretty straightfoward. |
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Trust_Jesus 13:41:36 Mon Oct 17 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
How am I gonna any smarter with these responses? I mean I know I'm a fool and but where is the evidence that you're really smart? I'm glad you support your local museums, btw.
I certainly understand. There's no room for God when you yourself are god. Seems logical to me. But what kind of god needs sleep? |
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TDbear 13:56:40 Mon Oct 17 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
err.... thats a really crap example. that murderer was a jew, he already believed in God, he jsut realised that jesus was Gods son.
1) he meant all the people that dies before jesus was born, all the millions of people that were supposedly drowned in the great flood. 2) knowledge of God is already encoded in us without bible or baptism... hmm some how i dont believe that for a second. before i ever learned anything about religion, i instinctually knew about and believe in reencarnation, so i dont know where that crap came from. 2a) i also dont agree that my soul knows who god is and i choose not to acknowledge him. i can't acknowledge something that doesn't exist. 3) dont ever say that about athesits again, its wrong. Satanists believe they are their own god's, atheists DONT BELIEVE IN ANYTHING SUPERNATURAL OR SPIRITUAL. Also, saying that all other religions are just man-made and only serve to justify a persons self-rightiousness is an insult. |
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Trust_Jesus 14:27:52 Mon Oct 17 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
You have a good point. Well we're not sure if he was a Jew. It's likely he was but I know a Jew who claims God doesn't exist!? And from the Greek we know that both thieves were mocking him earlier in the day. He was no doubt AWARE of the teachings of the Jewish God, that seems certain and that was your point, I think. So yes, I can see why you might not accept it as well as if the guy was a thief from Africa or the Americas which is not likely.
Once again, life on earth does not = life eternal. I can be killed as a 2 day infant by God and still be loved eternally by God both before and after my 2 days on earth.
Lazarus was brought back to life. The devil was "reincarnated" into a group of pigs by Jesus. I don't think that's a deal-killer at all!
That is how it appears to you at this moment. I'm saying "fine". I'm simply telling you what the Bible says about the subject. I'm curious, did your revelation tell you that "God doesn't exist"? How would you be able to say that otherwise?
But don't you see? An atheist has decided that there is no god. If there is no god then are YOU not in control of your own destiny? Who do you answer to? Who runs your life? Who is your motivation? And most importantly Who decides what is fair and unfair. Who decides what is truth and untruth? Who decides which way is right and which way is wrong? Only you. I truly feel sorry for the atheist who says they are not their own god. It means they are denying themselves not in praise of God AND not for their own benefit here on this earth. It's a lose/lose situation. |
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TDbear 14:52:02 Mon Oct 17 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
what?! if you were killed as a 2day old infant, you wouldn't have any knowledge of, well, anything. if jesus was in the 'divne plan' even before adam and eve, then even as a baby God would know that you'd have to accept him before you could get to heaven. that post made no sense and doens't prove anything.
well, as i said in the other thread, yes.
ummm, being in control of your own destiny and being a god ae two very different things. People decide what is fair and unfair, and what is right and wrong, because we have free will, which allows us to tell the difference between right and wrong. Free will is what sets us apart form the rest of the animals. |
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Trust_Jesus 12:35:56 Tue Oct 18 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
No as a 2 day old infant I would not know anything but then again I wouldn't NEED to know anything to receive a free gift do it? The 'divine plan' is not MY plan it's God's. The only ones I worry about are those who "know" God and spiritually and consciously reject the truth.
Don't animals have free will? They appear to me to do what they want, when they want even moreso than most humans. If we evolved from animals how did we get "separated" from them? Help me on this. |
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TDbear 18:20:43 Tue Oct 18 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
God doesn't have a plan, hes an eight year old child who used to have a magnifying glass but his mother took it away for not tidying his bedroom :P
basically anyone who isn't a christian if your still holding to your belief that EVERY human knows God in their soul then? eeehehehe.... you said truth, but you are as close to knowing the truth as i am(well, your slightly closer, being 44, if we were both to die of old age)
1) No, most animals dont have free will, they are driven completely by their instincts to feed and mate (some, such as apes and some marine mammals do have sex for other reasnos not just pro-creations, which does suggest higher brain activity and possible a very primitive and underdeveloped sense of freewill, but nothing like humans) 2)I'm not an expert in evolution, so i cannot give a highly detailed accurate answer. 3) We became 'separated' from the rest of the animal kindom (namely the apes) because our brains continued to evolve and develope because we moved out from the jungles into the open lands, and nature forced us to adapt to our new enviroment where as the apes that remained in the jungle didn't need to adapt any further. |
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Trust_Jesus 02:11:22 Wed Oct 19 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
Yes.
I don't know the truth but I know the one who does and that's all I need. So some search and keep searching. I believe mainly they are searching for something that gives themselves glory. Something they are "good" at. Some level they can earn or achieve. Regardless, all of these levels are far short of perfection. When one realizes this, one has a choice, give in to God or delude oneself.
I've observed squirrels in the trees. One climbs the elm tree while another chooses an oak tree a bit farther from my window. You can't say one chose the elm and one chose the oak both by instinct!? It's fairly obvious to me that animals make decisions that control their actions. They, of course, have the instinct to gather food for the winter, etc. but they are not robots within an instinct. They are free to choose what tree they climb and they exercise that will freely. Disagree?
At least you're honest about it. Most people prattle on like evolution=natural selection throw around the term "progressive mutation" like it actually happens. To me it's nothing short of ridiculous and an embarrassment to real science. It's the only theorem today where the scientific method is given a 'wink' and a 'nod'. It's not good science, it's a kind of religion.
So as a SCIENTIFIC experiment would could compare jungle-dwelling creatures to open-land creatures and find that, in aggregate, the jungle-dwellers are less intelligent than open-land creatures, right? |
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godless420 10:53:26 Wed Oct 19 2005 Offline 3 posts blasphemer Reply |
OK, lets assume that only 1/1,000,000th of the people who claim to be Atheist, truely "in their deepest 'soul,'" are. That's at least 1 person. If you cannot believe at least one person in existence is/was Atheist, truely "in their deepest 'soul,'" then you need to open your mind/eyes.
Yes, I am aware that people lie. You cannot assume honesty, ever. But what does this have to do with anything? Surely not everyone claiming to be Atheist is lying. Otherwise, wouldn't it be safe to say every Christian could be lying...and so they are!
I extremely disagree here. For example, how is someone who was never exposed to the Christian religion have any knowledge of the Christian God? As I said before, someone in an secluded African tribe (take your pick, there's a bunch) who solely and strongly believes in his/her own religion will not recognize Jesus from Micheal Jackson. Seriously, they would have no knowledge of the Christian God. They might worship (truely in their deepest soul) A God...but not the Christian God. Take the Greeks for another example, worshipping (lets assume again that this was truley in their deepest soul) multiple Gods; obviously if this was in their deepest beliefs--they would be sinners, on the basis of worshipping multiple Gods alone, and be sent to hell by the Christian God, whom they've never heard of.
So everyone who has died COULD be stuck in purgatory?! And if this is true, then God has been sending everyone to Purgatory? Why? Why even have a hell if hes gonna just have everyone realize (right before they die) Him? Why even have an earth? Why not all be just born into heaven and just live for eternity in happiness? |
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TDbear 11:54:39 Wed Oct 19 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
and you are certain this person knows the truth? That is all you need? my friend, theres a difference between being humble in the face of an authority and removing all trace of what makes you human. If God created us with the ability to sin, dont you think there must have been a reason for it? to set us apar form all of his creations?... you cant say 'love' was his reason for mkaing a plan that includes a place called hell. Personally i think if he did create us, then it was his intention that some of us 'reject' him. it is all in his plan that some will see no need for him in their lives and will try to work things out for themselves.
well, squirrels, like most animals, are territorial. So obviously the first squirel made its home in the elm, citing that it was the better location, and the other was forced to find the next best thing (the oak). So yes, i can say that it comes down to instinct. ok, how many squirrels have you seen that dont collect food to store through the winter? none, because if squirrels had freewill, and 'chose' not to stoe the food, it would die. Yes animals make choices, but their choices are completely driven by their instincts... much like the belief that our destiny is predetermined; that yes we make choices, but fate decides which choice we make(of course, i dont follow that belief).
No, thats not the point i was trying to make. If all the apes remained in the jungle(which lets say, has an abundance of food and few preditors), they would have little need to adapt much in order to survive. But those apes that moved out from the jungle onto the open plains(which has sparcer food levels and more preditors) would have to do a lot more adapting in order to survive. Nature would force them to evolve to use tools to trap food, and find shelter to protect them form the elements... all this would continue to make them evolve and adapt to changes in their enviroment. its not an embarassment... it makes tons more sense than "an omnipotent all powerful 'god' created a man from the earth, then took one of his ribs and made a woman.... who bore two sons; one killed the other and took a wife.... WHERE THE FUCK DID THE WIFE COME FROM? and the reason is is given a wink and a nod is beause very little evidence has been found that really questions darwins theory.... you know the difference btween a theory and a hypothosis dont you? um... natural selection DOES happen. In recent times there has been proof. like the moths that lived around the old coal refineries. the moths were originally pale in colour, but the trees in which they inhabitted became darkened because of all the dust and sut spewed out by the factories. some of the moths changed colour and became black over time, which meant they could still live in he trees because predators would not see them compared to the white moths who stood out like a saw thumb and were eaten. Those black moths didn't just appear out of nowhere, some of the white moths adapted to the hanges in their enviroment by slowely changing the pigment of their skin/wings. each sucessent generation of moth would have progressively darker skin (this works because moths only have a natural life span of about a week, and the factories were in service for decades). now, if that simple example doesn't convince you, i dont know what will. i guess for you to understand you must first accept the fact that evolution happens over time... long periods of time, not just over night. |
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Trust_Jesus 13:24:37 Wed Oct 19 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
No, I'm not certain in a worldly sense at all. I'm faithful. That's the meaning of faith. If one is rejects God, then one must rely 100% on their own intellect. And that's where people have been through the ages at least on the surface. Again, the same misconceptions come back again. The Bible doesn't speak in terms of us "being free of sin" (which is what you mean with your statement "removing all trace of what makes you human" correct?). We can not remove what makes us human. It is not possible. The Bible talks about how to live with our "humanness", in your terms. So, no have no fear that our "humanness" is going anywhere.
Now things are getting good. I agree 100% with the above statement even though it might raise eyebrows among some Chrisitians.
Very cool stuff here. Here's a thought: Is it not possible that hell is what is 'best' or 'loving' (in an absolute truth sense) for some people? Basically, I agree with your entire paragraph above. Again, perhaps not all Christians would. I think there is a very good and loving reason why at this moment you are not a Christian. I believe that anyone as interested in spiritual side as you are will eventually be convinced by God (be given faith) to believe. You will not arrive there by logic but by faith.
You've got to be kidding me? To bolster your argument that squirrels don't have free will you now assign them the ability to REASON? Reason comes after free will! You said that's what separated us from the animal kingdom, remember? You're going to have to polish your story when it comes to animal instinct vs. animal free will, it's not logical at this point.
So instinct is like a software program. It begins when the squirrel is born and doesn't finish until he's dead. Or perhaps the program restarts on Jan 1 of each year? The animals you describe are robots and therefore we should see them they should acting exactly the same. Yet they do not.
OK, again using SCIENCE for hypothesis and experiment what we will find is more intelligent animals in the more desolate places of the earth. For example, we would expect a desert lizard would be more intelligent than a jungle igwana? Why? because reptiles who found their way from the jungles to the desert have to get smarter to survive. I see exactly what you're saying and we should be able to find SCIENTIFIC EVIDIENCE of it don't you agree?
Both systems require (at least some) faith to believe, don't they?
That's exactly what I mean by BAD SCIENCE. Most theories remain theory until proven with the scientific method. Evolution is held up as fact until the scientific method proves it wrong. That's what you are saying.
Once again I will say that natural selection is not evolution. Natural selection is a mechanical process not a biological one. In my job, we use the principals of natural selection every day in agriculture on hybrid crops. Yes, the black moths story you tell is natural selection and adaptation. But natural selection is not evolution! Most real scientists used to state this clearly. Now there is so much political pressure on evolution that they mumble on the issue and allow the evolution-faithful to "borrow" the abundant evidence for natural selection as evidence for evolution. Natural selection provides no way for one species to change into another, period. The moth didn't change into another species. Adaptation is not evolution.
Obviously this would be true. But we should be able to experiment as above and give ourselves more evidence. If we can create an entire dinosaur out of one bone found then we can surely do this  |
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TDbear 18:54:51 Wed Oct 19 2005 Offline 567 posts bishop Reply |
actually, i was talking more along the lines of "if the bible is correct, then there is a God and thus, the term 'sin' can be applied to humans (we are lower beings than God, so we are sinful). and "if the bible is just a storybook, Then there is no God and the term 'sin' cannot be applied to humans because there are no beings in existence (that we have encountered) that are 'higher' than us.
you mean, God is just sending people to the place they'd be most comfortable... heaven = those who are good and/or believers(those who want to be with God).... hell= those who are evil and/or atheist(those who want to be as far away fomr God as possible) amusing to say the least.
thats again assuming that the 'one spiritual' truth is the one you 'buy into'. But we shall see, perhaps your right, perhaps your not, i dont really care coz like i keep saying, i'm not gonna know for sure til i die. getting technical though, blind faith(and thats what it is, because if i quesiton it, then i am doubting it and if i'm doubting it, i dont have complete faith... and if you have faith, it has to be complete faith) in something that i see as none-sense... not just logically, but by common sense.
have you seen a squirrel try to make its home in anothers tree? it's not pretty. reasoning has nothing to do with instinct... the squirrels instincts tell it which is the better tree, instincts which have had millions of years to refine.
excuse my french but... where the fuck did that come from? animals aren't robots, they are animals... animals have intelligence (albiet limited), robots do not. thats the second time you've tried to use the "robot;software" analogy... it doens't work.
i'm sorry, but my comment had nothing to do with intelligence, just adaptation. In terms of intellegence, neither is more intellegent because they both simply adapted physically their their enviroment. if i can explain. The apes that moved out of the jungle had to adapt to survive yes. But they didn't have the right physical features to catch prey or food conventionally. Instead their brains developed and they gained the ability to use tools, and thus, lay traps. Because their brains developed, their intelligence increased (as well as other things) which caused their bodies to follow suit.
yes, but yours(the latter mentioned in my post) requires more than just faith... it requires a person to have a very low IQ. actually, could you please explain to me where canes wife came from? If God only created Adam and Eve as the first humans. Does the bible say whether God created anyone after them? or did he jsut leave it up2 the two of them to populate the whole world (baring in mind that that would imply a fuck load of inbreeding, which s scientifically proven to be a bad thing)
forgive me, i wasn't aware of that.
i'm confused by this last comment, can you elaborate? |
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Trust_Jesus 13:12:13 Thu Oct 20 2005 Offline 1477 posts bishop Reply |
Agreed.
Just thinking outside the box.
Now get ready for another technicality. First off, I love the term "blind faith", you are so right, all faith is blind. Faith to believe in this guy called Jesus is not of ourselves. The faith itself is from God. Many Christians factions like to overlook this fact in the same way they like to overlook that 'all are sinful and fall short of the glory of God'. Pride. The Bible also states that ways of God (faith) are foolishness to man. So, it's quite human and natural that you see it as nonsense. It quite natural that you view it as illogical. That's what I've been saying, YOU don't change yourself to believe, God changes you.
Just to recap then. You say squirrels have no free will. They make decisions in situational dynamics by instinct alone. If there are 43 trees in my woods, one squirrel climbs tree #12 by "instinct" and another climbs tree #26 by instinct. One comes back down after 19 minutes by instinct. The other comes back down after 3 minutes by instinct. One squirrel buries an acorn 40 yards away in the open field by instinct. Another squirrel piles acorns at the base of the tree by instinct.
I agree, it doesn't work for you.
Wait a minute. Here are YOUR words: "We became 'separated' from the rest of the animal kindom (namely the apes) because our brains continued to evolve and develope because we moved out from the jungles into the open lands, and nature forced us to adapt to our new enviroment where as the apes that remained in the jungle didn't need to adapt any further." 1. If our brains evolve and develop you do not consider a measure of this "evolution" and "development" to be intelligence? 2. You yourself make the link between intelligence (or whatever you substitute in #1 above) and adaptation not me. 3. You say "reptiles have to get smarter to survive". What do you mean by that if not more intelligent?
OK, the above is progress. But you've established a correlation between "evolution" and "intelligence" no? In other words, we can measure intelligence than that should indicate how much adaptation has taken place, right?
This is getting too easy. So you would expect that we can find an inverse correlation between Christians and IQ. Are you prepared to state that no Christian has an IQ measured above 100 or similar? Remember, we're all about SCIENTIFIC FACTS here at no-god.
For this situation, we'll just use your rules for vetting the theory of evolution and all is well. Obviously since the world was stated with 2 people, there was a lot of inbreeding for a time. Today, inbreeding increases the probability of a compromised offspring (but not every time by any means). Also, you are making a huge assumption that these biological systems have remained absolutely static from the dawn of man until today. That's an awfully funny thing for a person who believes in evolution to be assuming!!!
I was once in a museum (actually in london) where big replicas of dinosaurs were on display. I think it was mostly dinosaurs? Anyway a researcher was there assembling a new dino (or supervising) I talked to him about it. He said they only have one bone of this dino but they've recreated the entire huge dino based on that one bone (femur). So yes, you can tell some characteristics from a femur but they had obviously taken many liberties on what the entire animal looked like. Yet nowhere in any display does it say this what we THINK it looked like. It is presented as FACT. This is not science and is not honest. |
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