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10 people online in the last 60 minutes - 0 Canucks, 0 Canucks In Hiding and 10 Visiting Canucks. (Most ever was 233 at 09:22:13 Fri Sep 21 2007) |
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siblygirl  I'm Asleep  1000147 posts  Mood Now:  
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I see lines being drawn here in the U.S., as well as in the global community. This war seems to be breaking apart many of the alliances workers were building prior to the coalition's engagement. Increases in solidarity over the last few years seem to be falling away as people take sides on this horrible situation in Iraq. Patriotism is being used as a tool to measure the worth of individuals. I am deeply concerned as I see people pushed into a corner by a sudden hatred of dissent by brothers and sisters who just a few days ago were allies. I am not sure if "patriotism" or "nationalism" are good things in this day and time and both terms may need to fall away as global ties increase. But I would like your opinion on this situation as it exists now and if in fact there is a future for working people's alliances throughout the world as long as patriotism or nationalism remain as tools of loyalty and pride?
I've always believed dissent was a very patriotic act in which the citizens of the U.S. participated. To really care for the people and the country places a great deal of responsibility on the citizens' shoulders as they strive for a better country and a more equitable and peaceful world. Should dissenters because of their convictions, be labeled as unpatriotic? Couldn't dissenters say the same thing about the war advocates who refuse to think for themselves and are blinded by the flag? I have always thought of myself as patriotic and I am a Vietnam Vet, and yet when I voice my concerns and opinions, I have fingers pointed at me and am accused of being a traitor! The war in Iraq began with what the armchair generals in Washington were calling "Shock and Awe". People were led to believe the coalition forces would march through the country of Iraq in a technological fashion the world had never before witnessed, liberating the inhabitants in their wake. As I write this, we are into day twelve of the liberation, and more troops are being sent into areas once said to have been in coalition control, but now the opposite seems true. Support for this endeavor was never overwhelming, and what little global support it had is lessening daily as the world literally is 'shocked' at the deaths, both military and civilian, and people watch in 'awe' as rather than refugees leaving Iraq, there seem to be more and more people from the neighboring countries entering Iraq! As the war lingers on, the support for the coalition forces are waning, and support for Iraq is definitely increasing. Throughout the past 57 years, there have been 67 military interventions and now the war in Iraq makes it 68. In these 57 years, there have been 45 governments overthrown and over 12 million people killed. Anyone who doesn't believe the U.S. should be waging a war in Iraq is being labeled unpatriotic. I think a distinction should be made between "Patriotism" and "Nationalism"! Patriotism is a virtue; when you really care about your country in relationship to others. Nationalism is when you believe it's "My country, right or wrong!" Knee-jerk flag-waving, especially when combined with a disdain or outright hatred for dissent isn't patriotism, it's nationalism. And it's dangerous. The slogan "Love it, or leave it" has been recited many times and has become a mainstay of many patriots who are angered by any voice of dissent. Nationalism holds the belief that the country is good and can do no wrong. As long as the country is lead by humans, and humans have the tendency of being fallible, it's only logical the country and its policies can't be right all the time. The fact that the governing body is not always right is actually what makes the country so great. What did I just say? "The fallibility of the country is what makes it great!" I know, some of you are thinking, has he lost his mind and what the heck is he talking about? Well, I'm saying America is great because it is flawed just like any other country around the globe. The one thing that separates America from many of the other flawed countries is the fact we have one important thing, and this is "Dissent"! "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does NOT mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country." Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), 26th President of The United States (1901-1909) When war advocates encourage and defend the Federal Government and they do it under the cloak of "Patriotism", I have to ask, "Is it for the love of their country and its people or simply loyalty and support for the central government which motivates them?" If they advocate war out of loyalty for the governmental hierarchy, then I would call that "Nationalism" and not "Patriotism"! The Constitution and its principles are where patriots' beliefs are rooted, as a nation that follows the rules of law and not the rules of men. The statement made by President Bush, "you are with us or against us" has left no room for neutrality, and puts a large segment of the world on the defensive against U.S. aggression and unfortunately has segregated the people of the U.S. The dissenters of the current government's doctrine are looked upon as traitors. The nature of "Nationalism" is such that it serves the ruling class. It attempts to fill us with misinterpreted patriotic feelings and asks the people to do certain things in order to help their country. It can ask we give up our rights or to go to war to protect the high values our civilization holds. Such demands on the working people only deteriorate our quality of life and the only ones who benefit are the governments, politicians and businesses. Working people must learn the distinction between nationalism and patriotism and not be fooled by the patriotic tricks posed by the suppressors of social justice. Working people must unite and break out of the box that places borders between them and pulls them apart. Working people must work together as "internationalists" in order to utilize the power of the combined numbers of oppressed people throughout the world. Another world is possible and we are participants in the exploration of the possibilities of a better, more just world. We as a country need to re-evaluate our role in world policies and make a commitment to the creation of a just and equitable world. If our country's addiction to profits could be curtailed and we could start democratizing the global economy, perhaps we could at least slow the race to the bottom brought about by globalization. If our country were to set an example of a nation that is for peace, other nations may follow suit. By letting ourselves be led by blind nationalist emotion, we place ourselves into a horrible struggle which will only lead to more innocent deaths and economic disaster which will place an even greater burden on an already over-burdened society made up of working people. Instead of thinking 'nationally', we should be thinking 'rationally' about the causes of terrorism and work with the global community in an effort to solve these problems. The struggle for a non-violent, more just, equitable, and peaceful world will require our country to become more of a global partner instead of a global bully.
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Haven_Quartet I'm Asleep posts  Mood Now: 
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Yeah, I completely agree with this article!! In short, this is why I think being an American sucks:
I feel like many extreme American nationalists despise me for dissenting against the Bush administration and the war in Iraq - and that many anti-American non-Americans despise me just for having the misfortune of being born in the US. In other words, I feel like I get lambasted from both sides - that I really wish so desperately to defect to the non-American side - but that they won't let me join their club simply because I happened to be born into the very country that they despise. In other words, I feel like I'm cursed with the 'American' label - a label that I wish I could just peel off and see it go up in flames. In short, I feel like a reject of both enemy teams. As indicated in the article, it's only the governments, politicians and businesses that benefit from this whole thing - not the common folk in the US. This is why I hurt - and I can't blame April for moving to Canada. 
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retro_chica  I'm Asleep 5872 posts   Mood Now: 
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I just hope that you can understand - most Canadians like, and even respect, America and Americans - even if they dun like the Bush administration.
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Canada rules!|
Hipster I'm Asleep 2438 posts 
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People here in the Buffalo area are generally not nationalistic - but as you get a bit more down south, then you do see that more. I've been to Canada several times now - and they've always been very polite to me. I dun think Canadians generally care about politics like Americans in general do.
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Peggy_Garfunkel  I'm Asleep 4510 posts  Mood Now: 
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Actually, one thing I had thought about. You really shouldn't take the people who slag Americans too seriously - most Canadians are not like that. Even with the Canadians who are generally not that fond of America, though - there sympathy does extend to the Americans who are getting the raw end of the deal in their country. Even April has pointed that out in the other thread.
One thing I want to point out, though - and I am not in any way, shape, or form meaning to excuse their behaviour - is that I think their anger is actually directed towards the rich and well-off Americans. I think they tend to forget that the minority groups and the impoverished in the US are Americans,too - and that by generalizing agaionst American - they're lumping these groups in, as well. The thing is, the people who generalize against Americans are being irrational and thoughtless - so you cannot take them seriously. 
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april_wino1  I'm Asleep 3245 posts  Mood Now: 
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You know what, I think you're right, Peggy. The thing of it is, in times like this, we really do need to bond together. Admittedly, the US government only put us all at risk - not just Americans, but also Canadians, Europeans, and Australians - and that really was not smart. When we start to create divisions between us, that's causes us to be vulnerable - and then that puts us all in danger of the terrorists. I can understand non-Americans being resentful of our government - and, actually, many Americans are, too - but by taking it out on the American people, that makes all of us (them as well as us) more vulnerable to terrorists. Likewise, this is also what the extreme American nationalists by slagging the Europeans. This is not good for any of us. Of course, it's also not right to generalise against the Arab people on this continent, either - since they probably suffer the most from the terrorists. We need to keep in mind that people are people, and that we need all the support we could use against the terrorists.
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paulgro  I'm Asleep 686 posts    Mood Now: 
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In 1968 the height of Viet Nam the same thing was said. When we finally left that country everything went back to normal. The same will happen with Iraq when we finally leave there. We just have to hope not as many lives or as many years will be spent there as in Nam… Like it or not we (U.S.) is a waring nation like all big nations and other countries follow what we do. Canada included. I don't like this war and I don't like Bush to say I'm a shamed of being an American is non-sense. You don't give your country up because you don't like the Administration at the time. That Administration only lasts 4 to 8 years but the country is here for a life time…
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april_wino1 I'm Asleep 3245 posts Mood Now:
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I understand what you're saying, Paul - but my reasons for moving to Canada goes much deeper than the war in Iraq.
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paulgro I'm Asleep 686 posts Mood Now:
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Wasn't pointing fingers. Just talking about the attitude in this country…
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april_wino1 I'm Asleep 3245 posts Mood Now:
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Okay, fair enough.
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pyxi_styx I'm Asleep 3982 posts   Mood Now: 
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Well, the bottom line is, people should be allowed to immigrate to other countries - if that's what they wish to do.
Peace out. 
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HighwayGirl  I'm Asleep 1697 posts  Mood Now:
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Just bumping this article up for our newer members!
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freddythefrog I'm Asleep 35 posts  Mood Now: 
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WOW,
have you all noticed how pretty you ladies are & you are all so very smart too! Im very impressed. But yeah dont over generalize people. Goverments all try manipulate world events, but mostly the people of any country (including USA) are victims of their goverments to some degree. So hey diss the policies but try to accept the people thats the best u can do. In truth there are alot of folks that bug me , so i just dont hang with them. I prefer you nice peeps  |
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Hipster I'm Asleep 2438 posts
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Oops, that didn't sound quite right!  What I meant was, Canadians are generally not as overly emotional about politics as many Americans are. It's the intolerance that liberals and conservatives have for each other that tends to turn me off of politics. My views do lean more liberal, but I doesn't mean that I disrespect those who hold conservative views.Anyway, yeah, I have lots of friends on both sides of the border - and nationality is never a issue with us. 
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AprilWineChick  I'm Asleep 7847 posts  Mood Now: 
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As we're very fond of saying around here, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The US is really no better or no worse than any other country - or is Canada, for that matter. It's just that the US is the most powerful country in the world - so, therefore, it's the most subject to criticism. The US is probably the most loved and the most hated country in the world - while Canada is pretty much ignored, because many don't really think about us.Anyway, yeah, I think we are all victims of our governments - but, underneath everything, we're all human. 
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