Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
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Mrnewbie
14:07:38 Fri
Jul 9 2010
Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
...BB...battery mod...JimC 24" barrel...shooting CO2.

Put scope back on BB and gave it a quick site in at 30ft..accuracy is pretty good at 30 ft..so I moved it out to 50ft..figuring they would spread out..they did.

These targets are just 6x9inch pieces of paper with a black dot in the middle. Although it is the goal to hit the center or the target the real goal is to get a tight pattern and fine the best ammo.

Testing these ammo's, all at 50ft. 10 shots
Copperhead bb
Daisy premium
Avanti bb
Marksman bb
Gamo lead

Copperheads stink..only 5 hits on 6x9 target


Daisy premium..all 10 on target


Avanti ..my first 5 shots were all to the left..I figured I must have bumped scope or something...so sighted in 5 or 6 click with scope..then tried again..
Avanti shot well..all shots on target..


Marksman 7 bbs on target..5 in nice group..not bad
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/Mrnewbie2/Marksman.jpg

Gamo lead..I have heard lead shoots better..so I saved the best for last...I was not impressed..7 on target, but all over the place..no nice group at all..NOT WORTH IT!!!

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/Mrnewbie2/GamoLead.jpg


It would be interesting to see others results..I have heard that HPA shoots better..be nice to see it...

In conclusion..
The Daisy premiums shoot pretty well
The Avanti's are just a little better...

Tbkahuna
15:54:28 Fri
Jul 9 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I can't see the pictures, yet, but that is useful information.

Thanks for the update.

SONYtec
19:33:13 Fri
Jul 9 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
For Drozd and blackbird, or any other BB machinegun, Daisy's are best value for accuracy.

If you are shooting a nice single shot rifle then you'll notice a huge difference in the ammo.

Crosman Copperheads stink to say the least! Don't waste your money on them. I had a whole bunch, and only way to get rid of them was to give them away.

rkr
07:26:20 Sat
Jul 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
It's nice to see that I'm not the only one with poor accuracy. I got inspired and did some additional testing with gamo lead balls:




All these shot at 10 meters. The bottom one is my BB with 23" barrel, there was a nice 3 shot group in the middle but also lots of fliers all over the target.

Top right is my FWB300, an old 10M target springer. It's a one holer with 1mm ctc when using proper ammo. It hadn't been used for a while so first three shots (numbered) dieseled a bit before the gun settled. After that the last 7 shots produced a group of 30mm or so which I believe is what can be achieved with this ammo.

The third one is a five shot group with my AR-1000 using open sights. The flier in the group was a loose fitting ball and the results seem to confirm the 30mm grouping of this ammo.

Based on this I'd say we have a serious problem here. The drozd should easily provide sub 50mm groups but it doesn't. The ammo is not exactly even sized so we should have an odd flier every now and then but not this bad. I'll see if I can check the 15" barrel next, I recall it actually being more accurate than the 23" barrel.


rkr
08:43:12 Sat
Jul 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Here's 15" vs. 23" barrel test:




A slight improvement in fact but still poor results. While swapping barrels I noticed that the JimC barrel is only 11.5mm in diameter while the original is 13mm. This means that the JimC barrels are not anchored to the front stock and in fact can twist in relation to the scope rail. The construction also allows quite a lot vibration which may be one reason for those flyers.

Does anyone have barrel extension in their drozd? I'd be very interested in hearing whether you are experiencing accuracy problems.

Maybe I should fabricate a barrel extension to my original barrel to see if that helps things.

rkr
09:31:28 Sat
Jul 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Finally all my drozd barrels. It seems that the problem is not in barrels after all. I'm a bit puzzled now, any guesses of what's causing this inaccuracy?




rkr
11:18:09 Sat
Jul 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Does anyone know what's the thread on the muzzle of the original barrel?

Tbkahuna
14:33:59 Sat
Jul 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
The muzzle end is a metric 12mm x 1mm thread.

aussie189
18:20:28 Sat
Jul 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I have the same issue with the accuracy of the drozd , I recently bought a jim c silencer adaptor for the smg barrel which is great as the silencer from my weirauch hw100 fits right on. The reduction in noise is fantastic but the bbs can't even fly straight through the length of the tube and have churned up the inside. I have been trying to get a smoothbore barrel from Russia see video http://video.mail.ru/mail/alternativa3000/3/3.html but I can't seem to get around the language barrier, if anybody would like to translate for me please email me. The Ajax x177 in the liberty airguns video seems very accurate, can anybody in the US find out what type of barrel they are using as the website hasn't been updated for ages

windage
21:32:38 Sat
Jul 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Are you other guys using HPA for testing. I know the first thread was CO2. Accuracy isn't all that good for me either with HPA. The more pressure, the more the spread of BB's. I think it would be a combination between gasket seal and mag head to barrel alignment. I tried the mod another person suggested, where he centered the BB in the mag head exit hole so that the BB entered the barrel chamber centered. But the BB's for me kept falling out. I did notice an increase in accuracy though. I might attempt it again with a combination of a new magnet mod in the future. The theory is it prevents the BB from bouncing around while traveling through the barrel. As for lead BB's, I noticed after shooting them, they didn't seem to have rifling markings on them. The lead and steel BB's might be a small enough diameter to allow for movement while in the barrel. I also reload for centerfire ammo and I do know for a fact that the bullet when seated into the rifle brass must be perfectly centered or else accuracy would suffer.
Another possible problem caused by not having the BB perfectly centered before entering into the barrel, is that the BB is being put into a verticle spin or some sort of random spin before entering the barrel. Kind of like a curve ball or slider in baseball. The BB shouldn't be spinning before entering the barrel. Just my 2 cents and I may be wrong.

rkr
06:25:22 Sun
Jul 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
My tests were with 1250psi HPA. I have done the centering mod for the mag head. It works with lead balls but BBs will roll out. I've observed few of those lead balls and they do have rifle markings. I dunno, maybe I should try to identify dig out those fliers and check them for odd markings. There's definately something starnge going on that's ruining the accuracy. I mean 30mm group at 10m is not good but I could live with that if it's combined to 1200rpm full auto.

rkr
06:56:33 Sun
Jul 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: aussie189 at 18:20:28 Sat Jul 10 2010

I have the same issue with the accuracy of the drozd , I recently bought a jim c silencer adaptor for the smg barrel which is great as the silencer from my weirauch hw100 fits right on. The reduction in noise is fantastic but the bbs can't even fly straight through the length of the tube and have churned up the inside. I have been trying to get a smoothbore barrel from Russia see video http://video.mail.ru/mail/alternativa3000/3/3.html but I can't seem to get around the language barrier, if anybody would like to translate for me please email me. The Ajax x177 in the liberty airguns video seems very accurate, can anybody in the US find out what type of barrel they are using as the website hasn't been updated for ages


Perhaps Sergey can tell us about the smoothbore barrel accuracy?

Mrnewbie
02:07:23 Fri
Jul 16 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I can't make heads or tails out of that video.. I do see a longer barrel, but it just looks like they are running it though a cronograph of some kind.

I'm gonna guess that just about everyone here is shooting with a JimC barrel, either 15"or 24"..I think its a real nice setup and at a real good price. It turns the BB from a toy 15ft tin can shooter to a sparrow killer at 45ft.

I would still be very curious to see what kinda bb grouping someone with a Lothar Walther or other barrel is getting!!


Mrnewbie
02:36:52 Fri
Jul 16 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
rkr

"Does anyone have barrel extension in their drozd? I'd be very interested in hearing whether you are experiencing accuracy problems."

In my quest for accuracy I have made 2.
One off a modern Crosman 760(not 24" barrel..about 17 3/4").Walmat $30..cut to about 15"
One Original Crosman 24"(rifled barrel)..still available from crosman corp.
Imagine this pee shooter...24" extension on tops of stock 7"...31"barrel....sure looked funny..

Both have similar accuracy as to what I have now...but

Both had bb jamming problems from time to time a few inches into the extension barrel. Others have had this jamming problem too..there is an old thread on it somewhere..But, I can't learn from others..I must find out for myself.

Thats why I bought the JimC 24"..to eliminate the jamming.


radical
03:25:09 Fri
Jul 16 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
U'll continue to experience jamming in a barrel that long unless the gas volume and pressure increases. A start is to adjust the pot but truly u need an HPA setup with a shimmed valve to get you up to btw 1000 to 1200 psi. Then u'll be rockin!

Tbkahuna
13:40:12 Fri
Jul 16 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Can you see any knicks in the jammed bbs when you push them out the back end of the extension? I guess you are removing the extension to clear the jam, and these are steel bbs? It would be the front one, and maybe others. Will the ones you push out roll down the barrel extension if you drop them in the end?

If you are joining them with a threaded coupling, you may be getting jams from the clearance in those barrels allowing the bb to "bounce" around a bit as it goes down the barrel, and may be hitting the back of the barrel extension once in a while if there is a little gap there, or the internal diameters vary at that point do to a chamfer on the upstream barrel section as well as just general diameter differences (but much smaller).

I would check out that area of the barrels really thoroughly. If so, you could try to get the barrel ends mated up better, or once they are really close, probably get by with a slight chamfer and smoothing of the downstream barrel face/id.

Does it happen with any ammo you use, or just Crosman, for instance?

TBK

SONYtec
17:04:23 Fri
Jul 16 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
May have a pressure leak where you mate the two barrels. Thread lock the barrels and coupler to seal it up.

Mrnewbie
18:52:44 Fri
Jul 16 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Wow, lotsa replies.

Yes I would have to take off extension to clear bbs.
Yes, I tried to roll a new bb down the barrel, the lodged bb has scarred the barrel, an obstruction a few inches into the extension.
Yes I'm sure 1200psi hpa would have forced those puppies out the barrel.

I took a small drill bit , enlarged the first few inches on extension..then took a real small drill, put some 800fine sandpaper on it..and polished the barrel..then hit it with some rubbing compound to further smooth it out.

Figured I would try a JimC barrel..his are at least hardened steel, would eliminate the jamming and I was hoping the accuracy was better..


The accuracy was the same. Thus this thread


RKR.. I can't believe the group you had with the original barrel..at 30ft..I would be lucky to hit the paper once or twice out of 10 shots .

I would still like to see what kinda bb grouping someone with a Lothar Walther or other barrel is getting!!


Mrnewbie
11:44:28 Mon
Jul 19 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I would still like to see !!


I cant beleive no one has tried putting a realy good barrel on one of these things. No one did it, no one knows of someone who did.

Here is my thought process on this!

The bb motors job is to feed bbs..It does its job!
The valve/solonoid..pushes air into bb, sending it down barrel...It does its job!


The barrels job is to shoot it out straight..kinda workin


If I were to put a RED RYDER barrel on the BB..I would expect the BB to shoot much like a RED RYDER

If I were to put a 760 barrel on the BB..I would expect the BB to shoot much like the 760.

Here is what someone else says about the 760
"The absolute accurate range is about 30 feet (10 yards) around 50 feet the groups are like 2 inches"
(link http://www.reviewcentre.com/review21363.html)
Sounds about like our groupings doesn't it!

Now both the above are extremely cheap guns..$30 bucks for the whole gun at Walmart.

What do you thing the actual barrel cost? $20 bucks??

How accurate can we expect a $20 barrel to be?


Thats why I wanna know what kinda bb grouping someone with a Lothar Walther or Green Mountain or other decent quality barrel is getting?

rkr
14:40:23 Mon
Jul 19 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Well, I'm not going to feed BBs to my FWB300, but with lead balls it made about 30mm group at 10M. Since a BB is not going to get seated in the rifling, I find it hard to imagine any accuracy increse with match grade barrel. I'd be quite happy to get 2" groups at 15 meters (which is about the same as my AR1000 and FWB300 did with lead balls) but unfortunately my blackbird can't do it - not even with 23" barrel :sad: There's something wrong in there, I guess I'll have to figure out what it is. Of course I just received my 1200rpm chip, so it might take a while before I have time to mess with accuracy issues :smile:

Mrnewbie
16:56:50 Mon
Jul 19 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
"It's nice to see that I'm not the only one with poor accuracy. I got inspired and did some additional testing with gamo lead balls:"

According to my testing..gamo lead balls are not all that great. I had a better grouping just using the Daisy premium and the Avanti's(also made by Daisy).

When you get your 1200 board done..try the Daisy's.

I was shooting at 50ft, you were at 30ft..We should pick a standard distance and both shoot at the same..

I would be happy to get the toy out for some more target shooting.

I want a 2-3 inch group at 60-70 ft..then I'll be happy.
If it just swapping ammo..cool...
If I was sure a match grade barrel would do it..then I would do it..all the fps in the world won't help if you can't hit the target..

Yea, I know..I'm silly



rkr
18:15:12 Mon
Jul 19 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
10M is the longest range I can safely shoot in my property so I'm going to use that. After I did the magazine head epoxy mod BBs keep rolling out so I'm sticking with lead balls as they stay in the magazine.

In my experiments I got roughly the same accuracy using 7" original barrel and 23" aftermarket barrel. I did wrap some tape around the 23" barrel to make it snug fit and added an outer hull out of 16mm pipe to use the same connecting method as in the original barrel. These mods actually brought the accuracy back to the original barrel category. Before the mod I was lucky to hit the target. What concerns me most are those fliers, every third or fourth shot is some 4" away from the target. Preventing them would do wonders for the usability of the gun.

Mrnewbie
00:46:51 Thu
Jul 22 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Well I'm still lookin for the accuracy answer, I don't know if A real good barrel would make any difference or not.
But this old thread..rehashed has caught my attention.
http://bb.bbboy.net/straferbbmachinegunownersgroup-viewthread?forum=10&thread=2165

I have read in this thread and others...about centering the bb in the mag head.. I guess its suppost to help with both fps and accuracy..rkr.. I guess you have already done it..but you only shoot lead..You need to come up with a magnet fix

I'm gonna give it a try ..I'm gonna do a hybrid between centering the bb and the magnet mod..not gonna play with the breech gasket now

I'll do it tonight, then shoot some more targets tomorrow to see if accuracy improves..will post results

rkr
08:20:58 Thu
Jul 22 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Yes, I have the centering mod done - that's why I can't shoot BBs. I actually had the magnet mod in place but I removed it for some reason I can't remember anymore.

One thing I've been pondering is the pot adjustment. Could it be the cause of bad accuracy? I mean excessive pressure burst from the barrel end could cause the ball to start spinning in wrong direction or something of that sort. I guess I'll have to shoot one group with pot turned down to check this.

SONYtec
16:12:28 Thu
Jul 22 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
The problem with bb's and accuracy is that they never spin the same from each other, unlike a real gun with rifling. In a real gun the bullet actually engages the rifleing and is forced by that rifling to spin in a consistant manner.

The bb's never engage the rifling in the barrel of the Drozd or Blackbird, you folks with Blackbird's know this when your bb's roll out the barrel.

Inconsistant spin is the issue, some spin clockwise, others counter clockwise, and on different axis'.

This also happens with bb's going thru a smooth bore barrel.

The POT adjustment will have some effect in that if you are not propelling the bb fast enough, it will drop quicker. Too much gas and you are wasting gas with no benefit to accuracy.

rkr
18:42:50 Thu
Jul 22 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I was thinking of the lead balls as they bite into rifling. In their case the pot adjustment may have something to do with accuracy. I'll test that when I get some time from other things.

Mrnewbie
01:11:46 Fri
Jul 23 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Well I did the bb mag centering mod..and was real carefull to make sure I left a nice dimple in the JB weld filler material.

I think it may have made a little improvement in the accuracy, but not much..here are pics...yea..everyone loves pics...all 10 shots

Gamo lead at 50ft


Daisy premium at 50


Avani at 50


For my second test in a row, its obvious..Avanti is the best.
There is a lot of talk around here about shooting lead..but my testing has not supported it. I have heard that gamo lead is not all that great..I would like to see target pics of anyone shooting Beeman perfect rounds..or that B buckshot stuff..or even 4.5MM ZIMMERSTUTZEN.
I have not given up on lead..just on the Gamo's.

JimC 24"...Co2...Hpa next month



Mrnewbie
01:31:50 Fri
Jul 23 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Dp at 30ft



Mrnewbie
07:45:13 Fri
Jul 23 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Someone else tested bb accuracy with the Steel Storm interesting info..

Four different brands of BBs were tested with the Steel Storm. The targets below show the results for firing six-shot groups from 15' using a bench and open sights with Crosman Copperhead BBs, Daisy Avanti BBs, Daisy Precision Max BBs, and RWS Match Grade BBs.




Guess I'll be trying the RWS

Mrnewbie
17:22:19 Sun
Jul 25 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
For your convenience




windage
02:50:57 Mon
Jul 26 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. My former explaination might not be too much of a factor when it comes to accuracy, although the theory still has some merit.
I am now thinking that when the soleniod hits the mag head for each shot, the mag head shifts it's position slighty and the position isn't consistant for every shot. When the mag head position isn't the same for every shot, the air pressure and position of the BB before entering the barrel will not be the same for every shot. I seriously believe that the mag head should be firmly locked in place so that there isn't any movement but can also be released for when it is time to reload.
I would also like to try out BB shot which is 0.180" caliber to see if it works better or not. Shotgun shot is usually harder and more consistant. 0.003 of an inch might be too much in diameter but if it jams, I'll just have to have a barrel rod ready.
Anyone actually know the caliber of Jim C's barrels?



Mrnewbie
12:05:49 Mon
Jul 26 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Windage, I agree and tried the below..

I took the bbs apart, took solonoid off, took plastic handles off, took valve out..put barrel back on frame..

Now I looked down the hole, could see all the way through the gun barrel...and it was just a lillte bit out of alignment.

I could see what looked like a partial eclipse, I adjusted the spacing as best I could, till there was no eclipse...
In other words I did the best I could by just looking down the all open barrel,valve,solonoid holes.

It may have helped a little...maybe now it will shoot lead a little better, have not tried yet..


I guess the above really does not have anything to do with your lock-the magazine theory..but I't does deal with magazine and alignment issues..

Windge..There is an old thread here..someone did take a mic and measure JimC barrels..and others..stock ect..

Here it is....

http://bb.bbboy.net/straferbbmachinegunownersgroup-viewthread?forum=10&thread=2234&postnum=0&highlight=ZIMMERSTUTZEN

Mrnewbie
01:23:26 Tue
Jul 27 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
This is a post over a year old from mp661k.com..

This is a quote!

"hello everyone my opinion of lead over daisy steel is if your not going full auto then the lead is the way to go i use lead only in my one drozd with a 23" lothar walther barrel and in single shot mode my best 5 shot group was just over .5" at a distance of 30 yards the differance in fps is 75-100 from steel to lead and lets just say at1400psi i can get a crow at about 70-90yards on a calm day the best steel that i use in drozd #2 are the marksman brand as they measure up to about .175 and daisys are around .172-.173 and the lead are .178-.177 so if i can get up to 1000fps with lead icould get that 110-125yard crow sweet i will be posting a drozd video on utube just as soon as we get all the footage to lay proof to these claims well just my opinion cheers and happy shootin!! "


Notice this part...
"lead only in my one drozd with a 23" lothar walther barrel and in single shot mode my best 5 shot group was just over .5" at a distance of 30 yards..

I can't do .5" at 30 feet.

I'm gonna try and get in touch with this guy..and ask him to contribute to this accuracy thread...





rkr
04:33:55 Tue
Jul 27 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie at 01:23:26 Tue Jul 27 2010


Notice this part...
"lead only in my one drozd with a 23" lothar walther barrel and in single shot mode my best 5 shot group was just over .5" at a distance of 30 yards..

I can't do .5" at 30 feet.

I'm gonna try and get in touch with this guy..and ask him to contribute to this accuracy thread...





Ask him what brand lead ammo he's using. At 30 yards and with match grade barrel the gamo lead balls are hard pressed to give 3" groups.

Mrnewbie
02:37:43 Wed
Jul 28 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
RKR..He has not responded, I don't think he ever will. Like you I find it hard to believe! I kinda think he meant .5" at 30ft...30 Yards hard to believe.

I have noticed in several threads people mentioning that they can shoot .177 pellets with the Drozd..figured I would play with it.

Hit Wallmart bought some crosman pointed premium grade.

They did not work in my gun..I did the magazine tightening mods..so they stick out to far, to long a point, and there is no play in my magazine.

Today...was at mall..bought some flat, wadcutters...

I gotta say its a real PITA to get these suckers to work in the Drozd BB. You have to pull the mag..insert the pellet, then reinsert the mag just perfectly every time. If you get a hang up..just pull mag..throw pellet away..try again..pellet is ruined. I went through a tank of CO2, till I developed a loading system that worked.

BUT, this is the best grouping I have ever gotten with my BB..

Note..this is like the last of 4 pages..Sighting in scope..figuring out a way to reload on other 3 or so pages..
this is end result. 5 shots at 30ft.


Now while this is a real PITA, I can tell you that the next time I go out squirrel or bird hunting, my leed shot..will be a pellet...........

Bottom right is a .5" group..Left about .75"





windage
05:50:37 Wed
Jul 28 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Interesting results. So the Drozd when fired like a regular pellet gun, is just as accurate. To me, this rules out the mag head shifting theory, since the mag head is still being hit by the solenoid and shifting and yet the accuracy is excellent.
Look into the history books and they do explain some of this. Cap and ball musket rifles never had all that great of accuracy. With cap and ball, the variables are all consistant and yet accuracy suffers.
As stated in many other former threads, with the feeding system and lead balls, even if they do take the rifling and spin, they might be deformed in many different positions because of being too soft and would create different flight patterns for every shot fired. The smallest nick can cause an irregular flight. A good example is the dimples and inconsistant surfaces with crossman copper BBs and how they are the least accurate ammo we can use in our Drozd.
I wander if each lead ball was singly loaded, like you did with each pellet, if accuracy would be better? This would make sure that the mag feeding system would be taken out of the equation and that every lead ball is consistantly round before entering the chamber.

drozdandconfused
22:15:32 Wed
Jul 28 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results

Quote: windage

I wander if each lead ball was singly loaded, like you did with each pellet, if accuracy would be better?
I think your on the right track, but even the push from the mag head to the barrel might cause a ding in the lead. I'd be curious to see how well a lead ball would shoot if placed directly into the barrel. I don't think that rifling has any positive affect on a round ball, not like it does with a pellet.


SONYtec
02:03:12 Thu
Jul 29 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage at 05:50:37 Wed Jul 28 2010

Interesting results. So the Drozd when fired like a regular pellet gun, is just as accurate. To me, this rules out the mag head shifting theory, since the mag head is still being hit by the solenoid and shifting and yet the accuracy is excellent.
Look into the history books and they do explain some of this. Cap and ball musket rifles never had all that great of accuracy. With cap and ball, the variables are all consistant and yet accuracy suffers.
As stated in many other former threads, with the feeding system and lead balls, even if they do take the rifling and spin, they might be deformed in many different positions because of being too soft and would create different flight patterns for every shot fired. The smallest nick can cause an irregular flight. A good example is the dimples and inconsistant surfaces with crossman copper BBs and how they are the least accurate ammo we can use in our Drozd.
I wander if each lead ball was singly loaded, like you did with each pellet, if accuracy would be better? This would make sure that the mag feeding system would be taken out of the equation and that every lead ball is consistantly round before entering the chamber.


Correct!

Mrnewbie
10:43:52 Thu
Jul 29 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Just a warning to anyone else thats gonna try shooting pellets....

Be carefull loading pellets, since my magazine fits real tight at the breech to barrel seal..I damaged my barrel gasket when putting pellets in, or when clearing a jamm.

In fact all it takes is one jammed pellet, and you could have this problem.

So, I recommend you get a couple spares from EEA, before you try to shoot pellets ..

PS. I did set up at about 100 feet..and had about a 4" grouping..then I trashed my barrel gasket. (part 4)

aussie189
22:02:13 Thu
Jul 29 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
What I do to load pellets is leave off the cover for the solenoid then you just drop the mag an inch and put the pellet in with a pair of angled tweezers. It fits perfectly and only takes a couple of seconds to do with either type of drozd mag.

Mrnewbie
11:24:46 Fri
Jul 30 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Windage mentioned "Cap and ball musket rifles "

So after making a new barrel gasket..I played musket rifle.

Put pellets in from front of barrel, used rubber coated coat hanger as plunger rod...worked ok, PITA to do.

I like the way you do it..leave solonoid cover off. But I have a scope on the gun..and I don't wanna mess up sighting.

I have to loosen my barrel in order to get the cover off..and I don't wanna do that, The next time I have toy apart..I will modify the cover so I can take it on and off without loosening the barrel. Your way sure sounds faster/easier.

windage
05:11:13 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Anyone still working on this issue? Has anyone tested lead ball ammo while loading it in single shot mode, "cap and ball fashion"?
I won't be able to test anytime soon since I live in the city and cannot do any target shooting in my backyard without my neighbors calling the cops, lol. My month of August is booked with family events. Ideally, I would like to test at an indoor range at aroumd 20 yards. Most indoor ranges refuse steel BB's though, so I might be hooped.

rkr
05:22:42 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I've plans to do some tests with different pot settings. The theory being that if the expansion of air is not actually pushing the ball at the end of the barrel the rifling may give them balls a more uniform spinning. Then there's the clip of course. Eliminating any side by side movement could also improve things. Once I figure out a clever way of doing that I'll give it a go as well. Other than those two things I haven't figured out any other issues to fix.

BTW, has anyone else noticed that the first shot always seems to be low on fps?

Mrnewbie
11:32:52 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I tried the gamo in "cap and Ball" fashion.

I was not impressed with results..not close to shooting like the pellets. The one thing I noticed when dropping the gamo lead down the barrel is...it was loose, rolled down the barrel just like a bbs. When shooting pellets, they seal well, you actually have to force them down the barrel..not alot of force, but just a little and they fit snug.

I'm still playin with accuracy and have some RWS bbs on the way.


I also have another idea that I am going to pursue. It either a brilliant idea, or just plain stupid. But I'm gonna try it..here is thought.


CUSTOM LEAD, i think that gamo lead is to small and does not seal well in barrel. I was thinking of buying some larger shot..something in the .185 range or larger....I will have to determine what size is needed so they seal in the barrel, just like a pellet.

Then rock tumbler the lead shot in polishing compound, till I get it the perfect size..

Yea I know silly, but I gotta try it.

Note: I have been having a lot of fun just shooting pellets, Pellets have doubled my range.. I get the same grouping with pellets at 100ft as I do with bbs at 30ft. I invited a friend over for a shootout my Drozd against his Crosman. He has a crosman break barrel 22cal gun, no scope, He paid about 100bucks for it a few years ago at Dicks (he has a Mrod also). After he sighted in and took his shots at target at about 90ft, it was my turn. You shoulda seen the look on his face when I did the cap-n-ball routine. I kicked his butt.



drozdandconfused
16:14:29 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie

I tried the gamo in "cap and Ball" fashion.

I was not impressed with results..not close to shooting like the pellets. The one thing I noticed when dropping the gamo lead down the barrel is...it was loose, rolled down the barrel just like a bbs.

This is with your 24" JimC barrel? With my 15" JimC I have to push them in with a cleaning rod and they show rifling marks.

Sonytec nailed it here:
Quote: SONYtec

The problem with bb's and accuracy is that they never spin the same from each other, unlike a real gun with rifling. In a real gun the bullet actually engages the rifleing and is forced by that rifling to spin in a consistant manner.

The bb's never engage the rifling in the barrel of the Drozd or Blackbird, you folks with Blackbird's know this when your bb's roll out the barrel.

Inconsistant spin is the issue, some spin clockwise, others counter clockwise, and on different axis'.

This also happens with bb's going thru a smooth bore barrel.

But I do think that the bbs both lead and I think zinc will get some spin from the rifling. They come out of the barrel spinning/spiraling, as they meet the resistance from the air they start to tumble. They can tumble in a forward motion or a backward motion, then this mixes with the spiral spin and hence the shot curving to the upper right, the next one to the lower left, then one thru the bulls eye. I see a lot of my shots that look like curve balls. It's possible that perfectly round lead balls and a smooth bore barrel could make the spin more consistent, but there will always be spin or tumble.

I think all the info generated from this post is great. Those Avanti's look promising. I find this very surprising:
Quote: rkr

In my experiments I got roughly the same accuracy using 7" original barrel and 23" aftermarket barrel.

Does the accuracy with the 23" improve beyond 10M?

I personally gave up on accuracy with the BB early on. I always felt that's why the made it with a burst mode. If the first shot doesn't hit your target, one of the next five will. :lol:

rkr
17:15:53 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I believe drozdandconfused is right about the spin. I started the test with pot adjustment but run out of ammo for the "real" test. The two shots I got were 4" apart so I think it won't work. I had another idea, what if we were to slow down the balls at the end of the barrel to prevent spinning? Something like short piece of rubber hose or piece of pipe with straight rifling instead of twisted one could be used for that. Perhaps add slight choking to allow variation in ammo size. How does that sound? If it works we could try to persuade JimC for building such screw on devices for his barrels.

Tbkahuna
17:41:11 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I think a good part of the lack of accuracy is from not having a tight fit of the ammo in the bore. A steel bb sort of bounces down the barrel compare to lead ammo that has a tight fit. Loose lead ammo won't fix the problem.

It's a matter of deciding what you want. There are trade-offs. You can have good accuracy, but not with a high rate of fire where tolerances have to be less to function, for instance. I look for acceptable accuracy as hitting things like cans or even paper plates at maybe 30 or 40 feet as acceptable.

The bbs themselves cause erratic flight, no matter what. I think that is why a higher quality, like the Avanti, shoot better. Like many others have found, the Crosman's have flat spots, pits, rust, incomplete plating... those all cause erratic flight.

I have had good results with polished steel "bbs" in a smootbore barrel. Ammo quality matters, but then again, so does the cost!!



windage
18:04:00 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
The lead gamo balls are tight in the JimC barrel that I have. They for sure are scored by the rifling in my barrels. One thing to take note of is that the Steel Storm seems to have better accuracy, even with a shorter barrel! The only difference that comes to mind from the Drozd is the smooth barrel in the Steel Storm. I don't know the inner workings of the Storm to know about any other differences it might have.
The rifling might force the BB's to have an "unnatural spin". With the smooth bore, every BB should take the same natural spin style?
Anyone see good accuracy with paintball guns? Do some paintball guns have rifled barrels?


windage
18:39:25 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I found this on the internet.....

There are some BB guns that can hit aspirin at 20 feet regularly - from the offhand position! The Daisy Avanti Champion 499 comes to mind. In fact, it is the 499 that inspired today's posting, because it was developed with accuracy in mind. Before it was created in 1976, shooting coaches all around America pooled their knowledge to make a shooter out of the Daisy 299 - a regular BB gun that sported target sights. There was nothing special about the 299, but Jaycee coaches re-learned an accuracy secret that marksmen in Ohio discovered around 1850: if you shoot a round ball from a smoothbore gun, the closer the ball fits the bore, the more accurate it will be. I've read accounts where these gentlemen shot 2" five-shot groups at 100 yards!


And.........

A tight barrel could make the old Daisy 299 shoot half-inch groups at the regulation 5 meters. I've heard of some that were a little better. So the tight barrel really is the way to make a smoothbore shoot a round ball better. But what can you do if you can't cherry-pick through shot tubes?


And..........

If you can't make the barrel smaller, make the BB bigger!
There are a couple ways to do this. One is to sort through new BBs from different manufacturers until you find the largest BBs. Then, look through your BB guns for the one with the smallest barrel. Putting the two together should give you an edge up on the competition. Another tactic is to locate a supply of lead balls that are larger than BBs. I did this with a No. 25 pump gun, and I got groups of less than one inch at 20 feet. With steel, I was getting 2.5" to 3".


rkr
19:18:30 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
So tight fit improves accuracy on smoothbore. Then a short tight non rifled (or with straight grooves to accommodate different ball sizes) extension after the barrel should indeed do the trick (I hope). I wish I had a lathe so I could make one to try :sad:

drozdandconfused
21:01:41 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Smooth bore barrel, perfectly round steel balls sounds like the best way, but also sounds expensive. My Mrod has a choked "tapered" barrel which may produce the results rkr is looking for with the barrel end piece. Choking may not work with steel balls, but works with lead and even PBA alloy pellets, but I think the PBA's are a slightly smaller bore than the lead pellets. Maybe I'll try some .22 lead balls and see how accurate they are through the choked, longer barrel.

Cheers

windage
21:46:44 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
All this stuff about the Daisy 499 has been discussed in former threads and GD was originally the first person to talk about the Daisy 499. There are also several threads with posts mentioning smooth bore barrels and some people even asked JimC if he could produce a smooth bore but he didn't seem to go for it.

Mrnewbie
22:03:12 Thu
Aug 5 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I think bbs are bbs and are just not gonna be very accurate. They spin around and bounce around inside the barrel...left,right,up, down...how they bounce at the end of the barrel is how they are gonna come out..left,right..ect. Because of there imperfections, they just don't fly that true.

But if we can tighten up the bb inside the barrel..then it will improve just a little bit.

My Gamo rounds fit loose in my rifled Jimc 24".
They fit tight in the original barrel.
They fit tight in a newer 760 smooth bore 15" barrel extension.
They fit tight in an OLD 760 24" rifled barrel extension.

I expect this is why I think RKR's 15" barrel shoots as good or better than his 24".

I took the calipers to a few pellets..they were all around .180. The gamos were all a little smaller. So they just bounced around in my barrel just like a bb. Others have better accuracy by shooting lead, and swear by it.

I think my JimC 24" with some BBB (shotgun) sized lead at .180 would be a perfect match..or real close may need to shave a .01 or so off them.

At any rate, I think I will put one of the old barrels back on this puppy and try and shoot some lead.

I do have RWS bbs on way, so when they come in I'll do some more target practice..compairing ..

RWS, Daisey avanti, Daisey premium..and oh yea..lead..pellets too!
Think I'll set up the krazy lookin pea shooter..

The 24" barrel extension..on top of stock barrel
its rifled and should do the gamo lead justice as it fits tight inside so the rifling may help.

I switched over to hpa (stock 850psi)..my shim kit came in today, so I gotta empty this tank in prep to up psi to the 1200-1400 range.





Mrnewbie
00:56:46 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I put on the 15" and the 24" extensions..shot both with gamo lead, pellets and Daisy premium.

Don't know why but my home made barrels stink. There is no sense posting pics, the JimC blows them away with all 3 ammunitions. I'm gonna get off the pellet kick, and get back to testing the best bb type ammo for the bb. I look forward to testing the RWS and have high hopes for them, at present the Avanti's are the best bb's with Daisy premium in second place..and copperheads are useless.
Gamo lead has mixed results..don't work well for me, may be great for you its worth a try. I may try to shoot some shotgun BBB lead..which is .180..as gamo did not pan out for me.

windage
02:14:12 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
My bet would be the lead shot BB at 0.180 for the best accuracy. Also lead shot for shotgun shells are hardened for better patterns. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to buy any lead shot in town. All the big stores don't have any. Lead is slowly being phased out in the shotgun world.

radical
05:07:54 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SBK1B


rkr
05:17:59 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie at 00:56:46 Fri Aug 6 2010

I put on the 15" and the 24" extensions..shot both with gamo lead, pellets and Daisy premium.

Don't know why but my home made barrels stink. There is no sense posting pics, the JimC blows them away with all 3 ammunitions. I'm gonna get off the pellet kick, and get back to testing the best bb type ammo for the bb. I look forward to testing the RWS and have high hopes for them, at present the Avanti's are the best bb's with Daisy premium in second place..and copperheads are useless.
Gamo lead has mixed results..don't work well for me, may be great for you its worth a try. I may try to shoot some shotgun BBB lead..which is .180..as gamo did not pan out for me.


Please do try the shotgun lead and do measure the balls. I've been thinking of trying them but I'd have to buy few kgs to make it economically feasible in here.

rkr
05:22:38 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Looks like the accuracy is possible with lead balls:

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,1104.0.html

Mrnewbie
11:30:47 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 05:07:54 Fri Aug 6 2010

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SBK1B


Close those are .170 too small I think..

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SBK2B these are the .180

the larger .180 may be the ticket for my JimC 24" as it seems to have a slightly larger bore than the other barrels. So I have to give them a try..



drozdandconfused
15:40:55 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Thanks rkr, now we have a name for the tumble, the "Magnus effect." I had this idea kicking around that maybe micro-dimples instead of a smooth surface on the projectile, like a golf ball. Check out "The Dimples."

http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/instructor/golf-01.html

Granted, there would have to be a process, i.e., turning in sand or hot/cold pitting, or hell in China they could probably do it by hand and still make a profit :lol: pre-apology if anyone was offended by that.

It seems that with the variables of the Drozd which do vary, e.g., barrel length, weight of projectile, velocity, etc. that the Magnus effect really starts to take hold between 20-30 ft.

radical
16:46:07 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I have one of the 8lbs jars. They work fairly well. Better on half a mag ass with a full, the last shot get pretty distorted.
The 180 jammed all the time. But that was long ago, before the jimc barrels. Maybe they woud work with the 180.

rkr
17:26:51 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: drozdandconfused at 15:40:55 Fri Aug 6 2010

Thanks rkr, now we have a name for the tumble, the "Magnus effect." I had this idea kicking around that maybe micro-dimples instead of a smooth surface on the projectile, like a golf ball. Check out "The Dimples."

http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/instructor/golf-01.html

Granted, there would have to be a process, i.e., turning in sand or hot/cold pitting, or hell in China they could probably do it by hand and still make a profit :lol: pre-apology if anyone was offended by that.

It seems that with the variables of the Drozd which do vary, e.g., barrel length, weight of projectile, velocity, etc. that the Magnus effect really starts to take hold between 20-30 ft.


Dimples would be cool but you still get slice and hook with golf balls so it's not the final solution. My suggestion would be to eliminate any spin as much as possible, thus the non rifled tight part at the end of the barrel or a tight smoothbore barrel. As I understand it the russians use smoothbore barrel extensions that screw to the original barrel.

Funny you mention that range. I get decent grouping at around 20-25 ft but at 30-35 ft the round balls start to spread all over the target.

windage
19:07:57 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Straight rifling instead of helical rifling in a barrel might be an active way to stop the spin altogther when using lead BBs.

rkr
20:10:06 Fri
Aug 6 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage at 19:07:57 Fri Aug 6 2010

Straight rifling instead of helical rifling in a barrel might be an active way to stop the spin altogther when using lead BBs.


Yes, and if you make the rifling profile triangular instead of square you can handle different sizes of lead balls -> the variation in ammo size should also cease to be a problem. My idea is to replace the end nut on the barrel with a 1" or so extension that introduces either tight smoothbore or straight rifling. I just don't have tools to make a proper one :sad:

Mrnewbie
01:08:32 Sat
Aug 7 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 16:46:07 Fri Aug 6 2010

I have one of the 8lbs jars. They work fairly well. Better on half a mag ass with a full, the last shot get pretty distorted.
The 180 jammed all the time. But that was long ago, before the jimc barrels. Maybe they woud work with the 180.


You may be right, they may be to large. I just know when I took the calipers to a few ..177 cal pellets the average was about .180..I only did 3 or 4. Now how can a .180 pellet fit in a .177 cal barrel?
After a close look at the pellets I realize they are designed to have little ridges..top and bottom..Its my thought they actually bend and conform to the barrel.

Now a round lead ball is not going to conform so easy. Maybe a .180..will be too large..but I have an old rock tumbler..so after a few hrs in a rock tumbler they may be at .179..don't know..will try

The point is to try and find a perfect match, a bb or lead bb that fits just perfect. Now a bb or lead bb..is still a bb and gonna be affected by the Magnus effect, but if we can get a perfect fit..then maybe we might get another 10-20ft on a decent grouping. Maybe your gun-barrel might like a .178 dia bb and mine may like a .178..All in my head in theory.

Every barrel..every gun is a little different..think of it as fine tunning.


On another site I found this info..on bb sizes

Copperheads .170..these are useless
Daisy (doesn't say premium) .172 better
Avanti .174 ...best yet
RWS .174...will try
Gamo lead .176...but they didn't help me..my thought on this is they are still too small to seal in my barrel, and are getting slightly deformed in the mag..if they were a little bigger maybe they would conform to the barrel and seal up real nice..we will find out..


It seems the larger in bb size we go the better the accuracy is. I think there is just less bouncing around in the barrel..


Went back to that site..and found more interesting info.

H&N makes a copper coated lead ball at .177
Beeman perfect rounds (lead) at at .178 I may not need to use tumbler at all..
Link...

http://co2airguns.net/Collection/ammo.htm


radical
02:50:14 Sat
Aug 7 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
This is a picture of the high antimony hardness extra spherical "b" shot .170 cal. with a daisy premiem zinc in the middle. Shot well with standard drozd but not as well with the 1200 hi cycle rates. See link in earlier post



drozdandconfused
03:11:44 Sat
Aug 7 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results

Quote: rkr

Dimples would be cool but you still get slice and hook with golf balls so it's not the final solution.


Ah yes, but the hook and slice are "pilot" error. We all know that dimpled .177 shot is never going to happen, but it would allow the bb to fly farther before the adverse resistance takes affect. Which make this such a good idea:

Quote: windage

Straight rifling instead of helical rifling in a barrel might be an active way to stop the spin altogether when using lead BBs.


Why leave it to chance that there wont be spin in a smooth bore barrel when you can guarantee it with straight rifling. this would make the range the Magnus effect kicks in very predictable and probably increase the range before it starts. But, who makes straight rifled barrels? Which makes this a good idea:

Quote: rkr

My idea is to replace the end nut on the barrel with a 1" or so extension that introduces either tight smoothbore or straight rifling.


This seems like it may be possible and could screw on to existing JimC barrels. Problem is, still need straight rifled stock.

Major_Malfunction
07:13:45 Sat
Aug 7 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie at 22:03:12 Thu Aug 5 2010

...
I do have RWS bbs on way, so when they come in I'll do some more target practice..compairing ..
...





Looking for your comparison results, including caliper readings...

Looking at a crossman copperhead and a RWS match grade side by side, the difference is blatant looking at it from 4 feet away you can still see imperfections on the copper's while on the RWS I'd be hard pressed to point one out from up close.



rkr
08:01:58 Sat
Aug 7 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Another thing that was mentioned in the GTA thread was twist rate of rifling. Someone said that lead balls require slower twist to work. Looking at the original and JimC barrel, Jim's barrel seem to have much tighter twist rate. I got roughly the same grouping with JimC barrels and original barrel at 10M, I'd suspect that we are talking about too high twist rate here. Anyone with data of rifle twist rates and what we would want? Perhaps the smoothbore or stabilization piece at the end of the barrel is the solution. It kind of reminds me of the FX airguns special barrel where they use a smoothbore barrel with 1-2" rifled and choked part at the end.

BTW, just got my first magpie with drozd, at about 20ft with 1200 rpm burst that was one heck of a kill :smile: The gun also doesn't sound bad at all, very few people would link that sound to a gun (unless they've heard MG42 firing). I just need more accuracy so I can do it at longer ranges.

rkr
08:14:38 Sat
Aug 7 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: drozdandconfused at 03:11:44 Sat Aug 7 2010



Quote: rkr

My idea is to replace the end nut on the barrel with a 1" or so extension that introduces either tight smoothbore or straight rifling.


This seems like it may be possible and could screw on to existing JimC barrels. Problem is, still need straight rifled stock.


Well, since we are talking of 1-1.5" maybe, it should be doable with simple tools. Especially if we talk about triangular rifle profile. Make a reamer out of tool steel harden it and pull it straight through. Then harden the barrel bit. It's that twisting that's problematic to do properly.

It might even be possible to fing something suited for a reamer if one were to check grinding bits and other such things in the HW store. Maybe we could even use a modified properly sized nut (as in bolts) in this case, grind it to have sharp corners and pull through.

We could start by drilling a 4.2 mm hole to a piece of steel or iron, hone it out to 4.4mm and then do the grooves. Introduce 7/16-20 UNF threads to one and and screw it into JimC barrel.

Perhaps we should ask Jim if he's willing to make a test piece and try it?

Edit, sent mail to Jim - we'll se if he calls in.

Edit two, how about hexagonal profile barrel like H&K does? Just get a nut and pull it through.

Edit three, it would probably be easiest to start with a tight smoothbore barrel mouthpiece and then groove/rifle it to see if that provides any improvements

drozdandconfused
16:13:36 Sat
Aug 7 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results

Quote: rkr

Well, since we are talking of 1-1.5" maybe, it should be doable with simple tools. Especially if we talk about triangular rifle profile. Make a reamer out of tool steel harden it and pull it straight through.


I agree, that's is why I think this has possibilities. Button rifling seems to be the most applicable and while it may cause stress to the barrel, since it is for a bb gun, not a concern. Yes, JimC should chime in on this and maybe do some prototype testing to see if it will work.


windage
01:54:24 Sun
Aug 8 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Usually rifle barrels with a;
1 turn in 66" rifling will do best with round ball,
1 turn in 48" round ball, ball-ets, short conical bullet and saboted pistol bullet,
1 turn in 28" conical bullet and saboted bullet.

This is refering to Cap and Ball musket rifles.

It is confirmed that a fast twist with a round ball will create lousy accuracy. This issue might be as simple as rifle twist in the barrel. Even with steel BB's this might be an accuracy improvement.

rkr
08:32:53 Sun
Aug 8 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Tried to hit a magpie at 15yards today. A 10 shot burst totally missed the target - I really need to do something about this accuracy issue.

This leads to another idea. Since we haven't heard from JimC, maybe we could DIY fix his barrels. What I was thinking of is extreme lapping using soft lead plunger. If we lap the barrel enough the rifling should in principle dissappear under the lead giving us a tight smoothbore barrel. What's your take, is that doable?

windage
16:38:36 Sun
Aug 8 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I think I am going to try some of the nickel plated shot that DUBB has been using first. He claims very good accuracy with it and since he is still using the factory barrel, I am very curious to see how it works in my JimC's barrel.

Tbkahuna
20:26:46 Sun
Aug 8 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
RKR,

Do you have an accurate measurement of your JimC barrel ID to compare to the ammo you want to shoot? I wouldn't try to lap that barrel myself. It could be done with lots of time, but that might not be the best solution, and it might not be as accurate as what you started with if you can't keep the lap moving consistently throughout the barrel.

I have an assortment of tubing that I have used, or plan to test and use as airgun barrels. Some of them are very smooth internally, but haven't been honed. My path is to find a match of barrel (tubing) and ammo that fits well and is accurate. My barrel testing apparatus has been redesigned, but I am working on other projects before I get to build it. For now, I use my Caselman, but the velocities with it are very high and maybe not a perfect comparison.

TBK

rkr
20:46:19 Sun
Aug 8 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
A gamo lead ball is about 4.45mm in diameter. The 23" JimC barrel is roughly 4.42-4.43 on top of the rifling. Same goes for the 15" barrel. Original barrel is maybe 0.01-0.02mm smaller in diameter.



windage
01:21:59 Mon
Aug 9 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Really? I thought the JimC barrel was a "tighter fit" then the factory barrel? I could be wrong. I do have a 15" barrel that I checked earlier today and noticed the BB wouldn't free fall through the barrel. I never used the barrel yet so it may need a cleaning. I'll check after a good cleaning later tonight.



windage
06:36:02 Mon
Aug 9 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
My suspicions were correct, the barrel was fouled very badly and wouldn't let the zinc BB fall freely through the barrel. I cleaned all the barrels tonight and I did notice that they were all extremely dirty. I don't believe I properly cleaned them before use. Now that they are clean, I hope accuracy would improve slightly. I also compared the factory barrel with JimC's barrels and I noticed that JimC's barrel definetly had a faster twist with a micro groove rifling style. There was more rifled cuts that were by far a smaller width then the factory barrel. The factory barrel seems more polished inside but that could be from the lack of pronounced rifling. I believe JimC's barrel would be very accurate with a lead pellet and even more accurate then the factory barrel when cut to the same length.
I also noticed that the Walther Lother barrels can be purchased with a choked end and can lead to a more accurate pellet rifle. Choking the end of the barrel might, with a lead round ball, reshape it into more of a football form and become more stable with the given twist rate of JimC's barrels. Perhapes a custom made screw on choke would be sufficient? Just a thought.....

windage
03:33:34 Tue
Aug 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Here is an old thread. RKR was involved and this person by the name SEARAT1 seemed to find the holy grail to accuracy we seek.

http://bb.bbboy.net/straferbbmachinegunownersgroup-viewthread?forum=10&thread=33&postnum=2&highlight=fps

He scoped out the factory barrels to be 0.174" diameter and noticed that we should be shooting 4.4mm lead BB's(European) instead of 4.5mm (Gamo Lead Round Balls and Beeman Perfect Lead Rounds). He noted that the 4.5mm lead balls were being slightly squashed into more of an egg shape and were then causing poor accuracy. I suspect the 4.5mm egg lead ball was now tumbling because of the wrong barrel twist.

Here is also an interesting article by pyramid air

http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/pellets-vs-round-balls/

If anyone has an 177 cal pellet rifle, maybe it might be worth a try shooting the Gamo Lead round balls and seeing if it has poor accuracy.

We have lots of old threads in this forum that already has a wealth of information and testing done already. I kind of feel like we are re-inventing the wheel. LOL

If those nickel plated lead round balls dial in closer to 4.4mm then we may have a winner when it comes to accuracy at longer ranges.

rkr
12:22:11 Tue
Aug 10 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
No, it wasn't me but R35 it seems. Now Searat's accuracy testing was done at 20ft which in my tests also gives decent results even with gamo lead balls. The question is whether these smaller diameter lead balls would work at longer ranges, 10 and 20 yards? IF that's the case we could lap our barrels with valve polishing paste to make them 0.1mm larger to get the same effect with gamo round balls as this guy had with smaller lead shots. Without knowing for certain I'm a bit shy of possibly ruining a barrel in an attempt to make it shoot better. On the other hand it can't get much worse ...

Mrnewbie
03:02:42 Wed
Aug 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Ok, the RWS's came in in I have 2 more 48ci tanks to empty and shim up to 1300-1400 psi..so I did some shooting..lots of shooting. I tried to be as accurate and fair as I could..counted points like a dartboard on target hits.
All at 30 Feet

Copperhead


Marksman


Avanti




SONYtec
03:09:49 Wed
Aug 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Mrnewbie, did you use a bench rest, or sand bags to steady the gun while doing this?

This will take out the "human wobble" factor.

Mrnewbie
03:19:38 Wed
Aug 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Ok, the RWS's came in in I have 2 more 48ci tanks to empty and shim up to 1300-1400 psi..so I did some shooting..lots of shooting. I tried to be as accurate and fair as I could..counted points like a dartboard on target hits.
All at 30 Feet

Daisy Premium


RWS Match Grade


Gamo Lead


This is the first time I have had even decent results with the gamo lead..I was at a local gun shop a few days ago looking for shotgun BB .180 size shot..they had gamo lead at a real good price. I bought a little tin, After getting these results, I looked them over...they are real shiny, as if they have been polished. Those in the old tin are dull and look like plain lead. Maybe I had a bad batch before..I don't know but I like them now. In all fairness I did have to re sight in scope, I noticed all the gamo lead was pulling to the right.


Mrnewbie
03:23:14 Wed
Aug 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
In basement, on pool table with pillows for rest. Looking through 6x9 scope. I was comfortable, very little wobble.

windage
04:13:28 Wed
Aug 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
So the RWS and the Gamo were very close to the same accuracy. The Gamo surprised me because I had not acheived very good results with them. I did notice mine were a dull finish and maybe could be an old batch? RWS for me seemed fine but I couldn't really tell the difference between them and the Marksman. I am going to look at what DUBB comes up with for longer range accuracy with his nickel plated lead BBs.
Thanks for the post and taking the time to show us your results!



windage
05:45:10 Wed
Aug 11 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I wanted to share some notes with you guys regarding the JimC barrels. I have the 24" and the 15" barrel. I noticed tonight and after the barrels have been properly cleaned, that the caliber between the barrels is different slightly. A good number of the Gamo lead balls can be pushed through the 24" barrel without having any rifling marks visible. The 15" barrel, along with the factory barrel, are tighter and every Gamo lead ball had to be pushed through the barrel with significant force and each ball had very sharp rifling marks engraved in them.
I did chrony awhile ago steel vs lead in both barrel lengths. Steel velocity was only 20 fps faster then lead in the 15" barrel. Steel in the 24" barrel had a bigger difference and was faster by 55 fps over lead.
I also noticed that Sergey's board I have with the pulse length adjustment for gas, didn't seem to give me any velocity boost while using the 24" barrel. I haven't tested yet with the 15" barrel. I think the 15" barrel should gain some velocity boost with the pulse adjustment settings.
I never did do an accuracy test with the 15" barrel. Maybe the loose fitting of the Gamo lead balls in the 24" barrel might be part of the reason for not being all that accurate.

SONYtec
02:12:58 Thu
Aug 12 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie at 03:23:14 Wed Aug 11 2010

In basement, on pool table with pillows for rest. Looking through 6x9 scope. I was comfortable, very little wobble.


Are the pillows hard or soft?

You want the rests to be "hard", sand bags work great.

Most shooting bags are filled with sand, they mold around the stock and fit tight, not allowing side to side movement.

Mrnewbie
11:41:15 Thu
Aug 12 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I agree it wasn't the perfect setup. Soft pillows and all, but it did give us a good general idea of how the bbs shoot. The testing should be repeaated a few more times, but so far.

Coperhead stinks on every test..

DP, Avanti, Marksman...all close..a lucky bb or 2 and they are all about the same..

RWS and Gamo stand out

Tbkahuna
12:19:23 Thu
Aug 12 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I may have missed it, but what is the accuracy we are trying to achieve? Do we want a 2" group at 20 yards when fired single shot? A burst group?

I still have less accuracy expectation for a full-auto bb gun than I do a bolt or semi-auto gun. If I can blast cans at a close range, full-auto, then I am happy. I do generally like really accurate guns, but don't expect the same accuracy when shooting full-auto.

I'll see what I can dig up from my test of polished ammo in smootbore, or will repeat my tests. I think that was just under 700 fps with .243" ammo. I'll see if I can also do that out of the big gun at 1000 fps, same barrel.

TBK

rkr
12:46:27 Thu
Aug 12 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I'd say 2" at 20 yards is what I'm after but I could live even with 3" grouping since I can burst about 6-8 shots into the target before it reacts. Currently I'm doing about 4" at 10 yards which is not good enough for humane kills in pest control situations. Basically I want to do at 20 yards what a shotgun does at 30-40 yards.

Mrnewbie
20:02:13 Thu
Aug 12 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I'm doing ok on accuracy..Today I took out an evil sparrow at 40ft..in burst mode.

I figure any sparrow at 35ft is a gonner. At 50ft its a 50/50 chance.

If we can get that 2-3" group at 20 yards..in single shot I would be happy.

Dubb, and a couple of you guys are trying that 4.5mm stuff from Balistic products..please let us know how they workat 40ft +

Mrnewbie
11:25:44 Sat
Aug 21 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Bump..

I have not given up on this yet, but I'm outa money till the 1st. I would love to get some of those Nickle plated lead bbs and test them..

I did buy a box of BB .180 shotgun shells, ripped apart 10 shells to get the bbs out. They are metal, "I wanted lead" and are all real close to .180. They are all in the process of being resized. When they get down to 175-177 , or whatever rolls in barrel I will shoot em.

Guys...come on...shoot some Nickle plated at 30- 40 -50ft...PICS

green_dots
19:14:13 Mon
Aug 23 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Greetings all.All you guys that are doing the fine job on accuracy testing.Go back in the forum and look at postings from Zaitsev.His gasket modd is amazing.Besides the increse in fps the eyelet he uses should have a major increase in accuracy. It decreases the opening in the gasket from say 6mm to say 4.6mm.All that extra space is gone for more fps but most importantly the bb is centered perfectly to the bore.The bb does not start out bouncing.I am still recovering from my operation or I would do a test.Take a look. GD.

stevoe0970
02:14:09 Tue
Aug 24 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie at 11:25:44 Sat Aug 21 2010

Bump..

I have not given up on this yet, but I'm outa money till the 1st. I would love to get some of those Nickle plated lead bbs and test them..

I did buy a box of BB .180 shotgun shells, ripped apart 10 shells to get the bbs out. They are metal, "I wanted lead" and are all real close to .180. They are all in the process of being resized. When they get down to 175-177 , or whatever rolls in barrel I will shoot em.

Guys...come on...shoot some Nickle plated at 30- 40 -50ft...PICS


I just ordered the Nickle plated shot, and an upgrade barrel. So I'll contribute some results as soon as I receive them.
I'll try them at 10 yards and 20 yards.

stevoe0970
23:44:05 Tue
Aug 31 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Did some accuracy testing today with the nickel plated lead bbs, and made a video. Here is my setup
Drozd Blackbird with JimC 15" carbine barrel, Thunder Power 2100mah 11.1V Lipo pack, direct 9oz co2 tank, Leapers 4x32 mildot scope.
The results were:
10 yard single shot mode group was 1.25" x 0.75"
20 yard single shot mode group was 2.12" x 2"
10 yard 6 burst mode 600 rpm group was 2" x 1.25"
20 yard 6 burst mode 600 rpm group was 5.12" x 4.12"

As you can see the groups doubled in size when going to burst mode. However the single shot groups were ok.

See the 10 minute video here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GsVeZgmSvA

Mrnewbie
12:26:56 Thu
Sep 2 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Shot the resized .180 steel shotgun shell bb's.
They were now in the .175 to .176 range, anything larger would not roll down barrel.

They did not shoot any better than Daisey Premium, Avanti..or anything else..but still better than copperheads. No sense posting pics..experiment a flop.


stevoe0970...Nice accuracy vid
I love all your bird/hunting vids keep em comming.





stevoe0970
15:17:37 Thu
Sep 2 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie at 12:26:56 Thu Sep 2 2010

Shot the resized .180 steel shotgun shell bb's.
They were now in the .175 to .176 range, anything larger would not roll down barrel.

They did not shoot any better than Daisey Premium, Avanti..or anything else..but still better than copperheads. No sense posting pics..experiment a flop.


stevoe0970...Nice accuracy vid
I love all your bird/hunting vids keep em comming.


Thanks for your testing and comparisons of bbs. Thanks for the nice comment also.

I ended up testing the Daisy Zincs against the nickel plated lead bbs, and the Daisy bb groups were roughly twice as large as the nickel plated lead bbs. At 10 yards I got close to a 2 inch group with the Daisy bbs, as compared to the 1 inch group with the Nickel plated lead bbs. I still like the Daisy bbs as they are cheap, and accurate enough for me out to 10 yards.

windage
03:09:25 Mon
Sep 27 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Did some accuracy testing today and found a bit of a surprise. My groups are excellent with Marksman steel BB's at 15 yards (45 feet). After I finished my groups, I did a little tin can shooting. Even at 20 yards (60 feet), it didn't seem hard to hit the can. I never did do any accuracy testing with the marksman BB's before.

With a 15" barrel:


With a 24" barrel:


With a 24" barrel:


I don't think I will get much better with lead BB's. The groups were just a tad tighter with the 15" barrel besides the 1 flier. But I think I will stay with the 24" barrel since the velocity gains are way more.

SONYtec
03:23:41 Mon
Sep 27 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Mrnewbie at 12:26:56 Thu Sep 2 2010

...still better than copperheads.


WHY do people WASTE time with the F@#King copperheads!!! :smash:

:rolleyes:

windage
02:59:26 Tue
Sep 28 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I fired maybe 20 rounds of copper head BB's when I first bought the gun. Pretty well since day one, I have been using RWS and Gamo lead BB's.
Just another note on my yesterdays accuracy testing. I was intending on doing some Gamo BB testing but I had so much trouble with the feeding in the mag that I got frustrated and went straight to steel. I never had any issues with the Gamo before and I have successfully fired many hundreds of rounds without a single failure. This particular can of Gamo was way oversized for my mag tube and got jammed just before entering the mag head. It would fire maybe 2 or 3 and then get jammed.
When I was testing, there was about a 20km wind but I lined up the target to face into the wind to minimize the crosswind effect.
I am just surprised nobody commented on my nice pictures. :lol:

radical
06:41:57 Tue
Sep 28 2010
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
The Marksman Gold/brass have long been established as the most consistatley spherical without the imperfections as the copperheads. I have too done my best shooting with these Marksmans. To note-I did well with Ballistic products high antimony extra spherical B shot at .170. Still not hard enough for the 1200 rof but does fine in my drozd at the 600rof. I checked the sight and havent seen this kind anymore. Too bad cause the Russians were using a process to make these antimony lead rounds harder and getting good results.

windage
23:37:13 Mon
Oct 24 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Did some more accuracy tests with my new magnet alignment mod and I have to admit there was really no changes in accuracy. Steel shot did better then the lead gamo at 40 feet. 2 1/2" group for steel vs 3 1/2" for lead. All shots fired in single mode with a 15" barrel. In fact lead got worse cause the rod magnet dents the lead but I expected that and I will be ordering a 30 rounder for lead only. On the one mag my JB weld didn't hold but it still seemed to fire fine even with the magnet pushed out. lol
I have new breech gaskets and the hole is a tad smaller so there is more back pressure in the one mag. I have another mod I am going to share with you all if my testing concludes a worthy mod. I will probably start testing tonight if possible.

camracer
23:57:12 Mon
Oct 24 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Interesting, windage!! Thanks for your testing results! Would have guessed the exact opposite results steel vs. lead!

I will be looking forward to your results with the 30 round clip mag. I have my BEST accuracy using that clip! NO substitute for hunting the 'ol tree rats "quietly" :tongue:

The JB Weld does need to be on there as thick as you can manage. I cracked it my first go with it! But when you get it right, ...Awesome!! I do full auto "clip clearing" bursts throughout my shooting session now without issues! Let me know what I can do to help you out! ---Cam

SONYtec
03:59:44 Tue
Oct 25 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
The lead, being denser, thus heavier round, will have less verlocity than the steel. Hence the better grouping with the steel.

Tbkahuna
13:03:47 Tue
Oct 25 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
The Gamo lead balls I've used are smaller diameter but super soft so they deform with only a little force applied to them.

camracer
16:57:26 Tue
Oct 25 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: SONYtec at 03:59:44 Tue Oct 25 2011

The lead, being denser, thus heavier round, will have less verlocity than the steel. Hence the better grouping with the steel.


Mnnn Hmmn. Higher the psi, lower the accuracy also, ESPECIALLY with steel bb's. ...But who cares? Just pull the trigger until ya gots a dead target! :rotflmao:

SONYtec
21:49:39 Tue
Oct 25 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I forgot to add, that is using the same PSI for the steel vs. the lead.

windage
00:32:58 Wed
Oct 26 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: camracer at 16:57:26 Tue Oct 25 2011

Quote: SONYtec at 03:59:44 Tue Oct 25 2011

The lead, being denser, thus heavier round, will have less verlocity than the steel. Hence the better grouping with the steel.


Mnnn Hmmn. Higher the psi, lower the accuracy also, ESPECIALLY with steel bb's. ...But who cares? Just pull the trigger until ya gots a dead target! :rotflmao:


I get your point and for most varmints that is fine but with the gophers I shoot they need to be stunned with that first bb. Once they are stunned then the high rate of fire comes into play and the remaining string of bb's anchors them to the ground. If that first bb doesn't stun them then they are down their hole before the rest of the bb's do their thing.



camracer
00:53:45 Wed
Oct 26 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage at 00:32:58 Wed Oct 26 2011

Quote: camracer at 16:57:26 Tue Oct 25 2011

Quote: SONYtec at 03:59:44 Tue Oct 25 2011

The lead, being denser, thus heavier round, will have less verlocity than the steel. Hence the better grouping with the steel.


Mnnn Hmmn. Higher the psi, lower the accuracy also, ESPECIALLY with steel bb's. ...But who cares? Just pull the trigger until ya gots a dead target! :rotflmao:


I get your point and for most varmints that is fine but with the gophers I shoot they need to be stunned with that first bb. Once they are stunned then the high rate of fire comes into play and the remaining string of bb's anchors them to the ground. If that first bb doesn't stun them then they are down their hole before the rest of the bb's do their thing.



Interesting! ....cool! Post a video??? :smash: (with a disclaimer so the "girls" don't blow chunks...)

windage
02:37:01 Wed
Oct 26 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
That is one thing I would never do and that is no joke. I wish I could but I don't want the negative attention from the anti hunters. lol
Since I am restricted to low velocities out my drozd, close ranges and accuracy do become a big factor for a clean humane kill.

radical
02:45:01 Wed
Oct 26 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Youd get a good laugh then of me after clipping a Cicada sending it down into its death spiral like a Jap Zero then buzzing all over in a fit and the massive waves of dust and clods flying into the air as I do my eat my bbs death dance resembling an indian rain dance with my head bobbing back and forth catching glints in my Ray Charles grin and shades. The white men wouldnt be far behind.

camracer
17:18:41 Wed
Oct 26 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Pfffbbbttt, HA HAA HAAA! You's WACKY!

SONYtec
18:55:31 Wed
Oct 26 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
:lol:

Tbkahuna
19:28:39 Wed
Oct 26 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I got a good visual on the cicada spiralling in!

SONYtec
00:03:55 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Tbkahuna at 19:28:39 Wed Oct 26 2011

I got a good visual on the cicada spiralling in!


I don't, we need to see video!!!

Or it didn't happen. :rolleyes:

:lol:

Tbkahuna
00:52:20 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Rad's good for his stories.

SONYtec
04:40:05 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Yup.

Tbkahuna
11:32:30 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
You would get lots of flak from a video.

SONYtec
16:51:31 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
:rolleyes:

radical
20:18:50 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I wouldnt want to upset the Society for the Ethical Treatment of Cicadas to get their wings all up in a tizzy-I might have to do my dance again!

radical
20:25:32 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I wouldnt want to upset the Society for the Ethical Treatment of Cicadas to get their wings all up in a tizzy-I might have to do my dance again!

Tbkahuna
22:15:32 Thu
Oct 27 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
You can say that again!

SONYtec
02:46:34 Fri
Oct 28 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: Tbkahuna at 22:15:32 Thu Oct 27 2011

You can say that again!


He already did. :lol:

Tbkahuna
03:44:20 Fri
Oct 28 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
You can say that again.

radical
03:49:27 Fri
Oct 28 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
What!?

SONYtec
19:19:06 Fri
Oct 28 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 03:49:27 Fri Oct 28 2011

What!?


Exactly.

radical
01:24:00 Sat
Oct 29 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
When?

SONYtec
02:29:55 Sat
Oct 29 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 01:24:00 Sat Oct 29 2011

When?


Already happened.

radical
03:42:28 Sat
Oct 29 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Why?

SONYtec
04:15:56 Sat
Oct 29 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 03:42:28 Sat Oct 29 2011

Why?


It's da rulz!!! :lol:

radical
14:30:42 Sat
Oct 29 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Where!?

SONYtec
02:14:09 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 14:30:42 Sat Oct 29 2011

Where!?


Over there.

deuce217
02:53:44 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 03:42:28 Sat Oct 29 2011

Why?


Cow pie


radical
04:19:35 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Who!?

SONYtec
13:36:18 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 04:19:35 Sun Oct 30 2011

Who!?



You!!! :rolleyes:

red0nd0
13:37:13 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
me?

SONYtec
13:40:16 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: red0nd0 at 13:37:13 Sun Oct 30 2011

me?


No him. :rolleyes:

red0nd0
13:45:01 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
them!

drozdandconfused
15:33:05 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Did someone say video AND cow pie in the same thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF638W2qxuo

:lol:

radical
18:25:25 Sun
Oct 30 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Ok...Ok...Ok.. Mista Kotter

windage
00:47:27 Fri
Nov 4 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Haha, that reminded me when I was a kid and shot fresh cow pies with 22lr hollow points.

DUBB
12:10:44 Fri
Nov 4 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: deuce217 at 02:53:44 Sun Oct 30 2011

Quote: radical at 03:42:28 Sat Oct 29 2011

Why?


Cow pie

Gotta put lots of "Cool Whip" on that.

SONYtec
13:12:54 Fri
Nov 4 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
:lol:

drozdandconfused
16:19:36 Fri
Nov 4 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage

Haha, that reminded me when I was a kid and shot fresh cow pies with 22lr hollow points.


I drove around the ranch for a while looking for a freshy, but had to settle for that specimen, it was hard as a brick! :lol:

SONYtec
22:56:25 Fri
Nov 4 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: drozdandconfused at 16:19:36 Fri Nov 4 2011

Quote: windage

Haha, that reminded me when I was a kid and shot fresh cow pies with 22lr hollow points.


I drove around the ranch for a while looking for a freshy, but had to settle for that specimen, it was hard as a brick! :lol:


Sounds like you need some exploding rounds. :lol:

camracer
01:58:56 Mon
Nov 7 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: SONYtec at 22:56:25 Fri Nov 4 2011

Quote: drozdandconfused at 16:19:36 Fri Nov 4 2011

Quote: windage

Haha, that reminded me when I was a kid and shot fresh cow pies with 22lr hollow points.


I drove around the ranch for a while looking for a freshy, but had to settle for that specimen, it was hard as a brick! :lol:


Sounds like you need some exploding rounds. :lol:


That's what ya call 'em coming OUT the cow's ass! Cattle, ...the largest natural producers of methane on the planet!

radical
02:05:31 Mon
Nov 7 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Lol! Ever cow pie chucked? There are tournaments where pay to see Sh*t fly:lol:

camracer
02:57:41 Mon
Nov 7 2011
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Talkin' 'bout "accuracy testing"!! HAA!

Yep, I've seen that before.

windage
02:35:01 Wed
May 23 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Round ball accuracy can be really good. Check this video out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11a2pV752lI&feature=related

Big bore ShinSung 9mm Air Rifle
round ball vs slug for accuracy

camracer
23:52:50 Wed
May 23 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Yeah, that's impressive! I wanna try big bore. (loud pressure!)

Who has 'em here?? You, Windage?

---Cam

windage
02:09:10 Thu
May 24 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
No unfortunately I don't have one yet but I am interested for sure.

radical
01:40:27 Fri
May 25 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Big bore airguns is a separate class of its own. Very deadly and often in calibers of .50. Quackenbush was a pioneer of the big bore air rifle shooters. The French used such in the 1700's.

DUBB
13:27:46 Sun
May 27 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
You know what would be even more cool? A big bore airgun operated by a spring piston, as opposed to pcp. Just make it a big spring and piston. That should get them up to 1000fps, instead of just 700fps. You'd only get one shot at a time, but you don't have to refill your tank, so you can get off another rd as fast as you can load and crank it. Of course, you might have crank it with something like a foot stirrup, like a crossbow, or something, but I could sure live with that. The way I went hunting, if you need more than one shot, your are doing it wrong.

Actually, now that I think about it, you would just make it break open, same as any other spring piston airgun. You'd just have to crank it around your leg, the way you would string a powerful recurve bow. You guys know how that is done, right?

BTW, what do they mean by "fpe"? That's foot pounds of energy, right?

windage
05:48:28 Mon
May 28 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
The beautiful thing about spring guns is that they are so simple. When hunting, simplicity is your friend. I am just not sure if a spring of a reasonable size can generate that much pressure. Having a fairly compact rifle is also important when hunting. For the speeds you are mentioning, you would need a spring and cylinder that can create 4000 psi approx. Interesting.

DUBB
06:18:51 Mon
May 28 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage at 05:48:28 Mon May 28 2012

The beautiful thing about spring guns is that they are so simple. When hunting, simplicity is your friend. I am just not sure if a spring of a reasonable size can generate that much pressure. Having a fairly compact rifle is also important when hunting. For the speeds you are mentioning, you would need a spring and cylinder that can create 4000 psi approx. Interesting.
Sounds like a case where size really does matter. I'm sure there are ways of using the bore and stroke of the piston to maximize the effect of the spring, too, as well as the force and length of the spring. I'm certain it's possible, but I dont have a clue if it's practical.

DUBB
06:29:40 Mon
May 28 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I just had this wierd flash in my head where I saw the spring being cocked by a mechanism like a bumper jack, ratcheting a massive spring with a lot of leverage, one click at a time, and had a flashback of pumping the hell out of the old 760 I had as a kid. These were simutaneous thoughts that sort of lapped over each other, to form a vauge image of what might be a great idea. Of course it might turn out to be a really bad idea, too, you never know. I am deffinately the "mad scientist" personality type, it's a really dangerous mix of personality traits: smart enough to figure out how to do it, and crazy enough to try it, without giving it a second thought, you know? I get into so much trouble that way. Hmmm......
"clickity-click, clickity-click, clickity-click........"

windage
04:00:39 Tue
May 29 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
:rotflmao:


If people didn't share your personality, then nothing would get done. There always has to a "first person" to try something new.

DUBB
04:11:43 Tue
May 29 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage at 04:00:39 Tue May 29 2012

:rotflmao:


If people didn't share your personality, then nothing would get done. There always has to a "first person" to try something new.
Yeah, so the rest of us can see how and why they failed, and possibly, if they get it on camera, sell it to "Worlds Funniest Dumbasses". Well, as long as I'm not on "Dumbest Criminals", I guess I'm doing allright.

camracer
23:57:56 Wed
May 30 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage at 02:09:10 Thu May 24 2012

No unfortunately I don't have one yet but I am interested for sure.


Me too for sure my friend!!

camracer
00:01:41 Thu
May 31 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: radical at 01:40:27 Fri May 25 2012

Big bore airguns is a separate class of its own. Very deadly and often in calibers of .50. Quackenbush was a pioneer of the big bore air rifle shooters. The French used such in the 1700's.


Yep, for sure! Isn't it crazy to think that pneumatic guns were invented that far back?! ...I would not doubt that the Greeks or the Chinese had an even earlier version...

I have to try big bore air!!

---Cam

camracer
00:04:33 Thu
May 31 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: windage at 05:48:28 Mon May 28 2012

The beautiful thing about spring guns is that they are so simple. When hunting, simplicity is your friend. I am just not sure if a spring of a reasonable size can generate that much pressure. Having a fairly compact rifle is also important when hunting. For the speeds you are mentioning, you would need a spring and cylinder that can create 4000 psi approx. Interesting.


Hooo Boy! That would be a HEAVY gun! ...1.5" by 12" die spring anyone?? How do you cock that sucker!! :tongue:

camracer
00:11:54 Thu
May 31 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: DUBB at 06:29:40 Mon May 28 2012

I just had this wierd flash in my head where I saw the spring being cocked by a mechanism like a bumper jack, ratcheting a massive spring with a lot of leverage, one click at a time, and had a flashback of pumping the hell out of the old 760 I had as a kid. These were simutaneous thoughts that sort of lapped over each other, to form a vauge image of what might be a great idea. Of course it might turn out to be a really bad idea, too, you never know. I am deffinately the "mad scientist" personality type, it's a really dangerous mix of personality traits: smart enough to figure out how to do it, and crazy enough to try it, without giving it a second thought, you know? I get into so much trouble that way. Hmmm......
"clickity-click, clickity-click, clickity-click........"


Heh, heh, heh!! Yeah something like that! BUT DUBB, you and I know IT CAN BE DONE!!! :smash: .....That would be CRAZY cool, Huh!! Imagine firing a 60mm mortar with air under pressure from a spring??! I wonder if it would be better just to use the spring at some point... Heh!!

DUBB
12:38:09 Thu
May 31 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
I built a mortar, once, by sleeving a high pressure ductile pipe over an automobile driveshaft. I burried the axel in the ground, so it could pivot in all directions with the universal joint. I would launch cans of beer with a half (or sometimes the whole thing) a can of Pyrodex. Had a little hole in the bottom end for some cannon fuze ("waterproof wick", if you like) to light it up. Beer cans full of concrete were the best. I have no clue what the range was, just gone, gone, gone, is all I know. It fired them for miles, though, I'm sure. Good fun, that was. I could pack it with some wadding, and fill it up with whatever, rocks, bb's, nut-n-bolts, whatever, to use like flechettes, for close range, home defense. I'd just aim it down the driveway.
Of course, that was when I lived on the volcano in Puna, my place out there was 7 miles from the pavement, and there werent really any neighbors to speak of: the boonies.

camracer
00:15:39 Fri
Jun 1 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: DUBB at 12:38:09 Thu May 31 2012


Of course, that was when I lived on the volcano in Puna, my place out there was 7 miles from the pavement, and there werent really any neighbors to speak of: the boonies.


Ahhhhhh, That must have been nice!!

SONYtec
00:20:44 Fri
Jun 1 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Awesome Dubb!!!

green_dots
22:47:13 Fri
Jun 1 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
When I was 16, a joined a Summer Miltia program.It payed $65 per week.A fortune in 1965.They had a mortar that used compressed air.It ran off a scuba tank but shot a lighter bomb.I think it could get out pass 300 yards.It is possible. GD

camracer
23:08:18 Sat
Jun 2 2012
Re: Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
Quote: green_dots at 22:47:13 Fri Jun 1 2012

When I was 16, a joined a Summer Miltia program.It payed $65 per week.A fortune in 1965.They had a mortar that used compressed air.It ran off a scuba tank but shot a lighter bomb.I think it could get out pass 300 yards.It is possible. GD


What sort of "lighter bomb" GD! That sounds fun... :tongue:
---Cam



Accuracy Testing....ammo pics/results
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