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green_dots
02:36:06 Mon
Mar 1 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Sergey you are a night owl. GD.

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
00:19:58 Mon
Mar 1 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Another Russian board installed in Saint-Petersburg.



Boris says the batteries are in the stock. I asked him about FPS figures, will post it here when I have it.
[1 edits; Last edit by Sergey_new_pcb at 04:33:38 Mon Mar 1 2010]

  
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green_dots
21:50:32 Sun
Feb 28 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Welcome to the forum Constnn. Good to have you on board. We look forword to your imputs and experiments.I notice you are using Sergey's new board. I take it you are also Russian and a friend of Sergey. Hope to hear more of you and the delvopments for the drozd in Russia.Welcome. GD.

  
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Constnn
18:22:46 Sun
Feb 28 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hi!
Sorry for keeping quiet, was busy :wink:
Today I get back to my Drozd and found that I missed bunker spring somehow :rolleyes: Fortunately I found the spring, but it took too much time so there was no time for experiments for today.

I use 12v lead accumulator. See picture.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_2pfjqYwUTqQ/S4q1H55ioYI/AAAAAAAABH4/rn3xvGdgjek/s912/Drozd.jpg
[2 edits; Last edit by Constnn at 18:27:39 Sun Feb 28 2010]

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
16:54:32 Sat
Feb 27 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

If the original capacitor in your Drozd was OK it really didn't make much sense. With higher capacitance the voltage goes down slower (see the graph below) but the pulse lasts only a few milliseconds and you don't need extremely large capacitors to keep it high enough. This time we suspect the part in Ray's board lost most of its capacitance somehow. If it's the case, it won't be able to hold enough energy to accelerate the solenoid core. This won't open the valve wide enough and muzzle velocity will be too low, if any. If the additional capacitor connected in parallel doesn't help, it's not the board fault but something else.

  
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green_dots
16:23:53 Sat
Feb 27 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello and good evening Sergey. Question? What is the effect of mounting a second capacitor in parallel to drozd electric perfromance. I am not sure if I did it right but I soldered a second capacitor to my older drozd board.I joined the feet of the capacitors togther and soldered them.I didn't notice any effect. Would this help at high voltage and high rpm (1200)? GD.

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
06:44:14 Sat
Feb 27 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello Gat.

The whole situation confuses me a lot for more than a week now. I've sold 18 boards in Russia and all of them work fine. It's the second time I have a problem like this. By the way, for the first time it happened with Konstantin's Drozd - the first tests failed completely but later problem was traced back to mechanical reasons: barrel, magazine head and solenoid not being exactly on the same axis. Kostantin cured it successfully.

I believe Ray is a professional and mechanical part of his Drozd is OK. If everything is fine with the mechanics then it's probably a defective capacitor. It passed the preliminary test but eventually works much worse with the real solenoid. I've already sent the message to Ray asking him to check if it'll work any better with additional temporary capacitor connected in parallel with the main one. If it does we're dealing with the defective capacitors and Ray will have to replace them. Yes, it'll be my fault. When I buy those capacitors in a local electronic parts store I read the marking (10,000 uF 25 V) and trust it. If the actual capacitance is significantly lower than rated value the board will still generate the pulses but they won't be strong enough. From this moment on I'll be checking every board output current amplitude with the oscilloscope. But again, don't blame the board for every trouble a Drozd might have. It only feeds the current pulses into the solenoid. Their amplitude depends on the voltage (see the graph with 3 yellow curves below). If you increase the pressure but don't see significant velocity growth it's very likely a matter of leakages, axis-related problems etc rather than failed electronics.

I sent a private message to Konstantin asking him to report the voltage he used.

The No.0008 Drozd belongs to my friend, I can't sell it. Yes, if it was mine I'd never agree to sell it also.

Yours,
Sergey Pismensky.
[1 edits; Last edit by Sergey_new_pcb at 08:25:00 Sat Feb 27 2010]

  
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Gat
04:04:22 Sat
Feb 27 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Sergey, what do you think specifically caused the low fps figures from Totalh's testing? Many variables at play here but Totalh's BB with the stock board generated 570 fps, while probably not having the advantage of 16.2v which your board offered.

Konstantin's fps seems low too running 90 bar (at least a 1,400 psi reg?) but lead shot is being utilized (heavier than zinc Daisy's). What v is Konstantin running?

A lot of questions I know... but your hard work is greatly appreciated!! This tread alone has generated almost 700 hits and still increasing.

Your Friend, Gat


  
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drozdandconfused
03:35:20 Sat
Feb 27 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Great info Sergey, good numbers too from Constnn. If my conversion is correct 90 bar = 1300 psi. What was his voltage?

  
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green_dots
01:39:15 Sat
Feb 27 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello Sergey and all. Thanks for the explainations.You can really see why voltage is so important. That 008 Drozd is beautifull and surely a collector item. Don't sell it. Gd.

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
22:40:35 Fri
Feb 26 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

But one more thing should be taken to account -- magnetic field in Drozd's solenoid makes its core move and when it hits the valve the coil's inductance slightly changes. So does the current inside the coil. It looks like this:



If you hold the solenoid core with your hand and don't let it move the graph will look just the same but there will be no "pit" on it. Notice that if the pulse lasts after the core hit the valve it simply wastes the battery's energy. What if we want it to strike harder? Remember, I wrote that core acceleration depends on the voltage applied? With higher voltage the current grows faster and the valve is hit harder.



The arrows show optimal pulse duration for different voltages. Note that with higher voltages the solenoid core makes its way faster and hits the valve deeper which in turn injects larger portion of gas into the barrel. Once again: the optimal pulse width depends on the voltage of the batteries that you use.

Now, some absolute figures. I used 0.0025 Ohm current sense resistor to measure coil current. The coil resistance was found to be around 1 Ohm which yelds peak current value of about 8 Amperes in regular Drozd running at 9 Volts. The pulse duration was factory set at 6 mS.

In the new PCB at 17.1 V the peak current was approx. 16 Amperes. Plus, at higher voltages the relative voltage drop after each shot is less (see voltage graph above) which allowes for longer bursts.

In practice the muzzle velocity depends on many factors like barrel length, battery voltage, pressure, gas leakages etc. So it makes sense to increase the pulse duration step by step until the muzzle velocity stops growing. In every Drozd configuration (barrel, voltage etc) it'll be different values. If you have any questions - I'm here to help.

Yours,
Sergey Pismensky.
[1 edits; Last edit by Sergey_new_pcb at 22:46:49 Fri Feb 26 2010]

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
22:38:01 Fri
Feb 26 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

[Continued]

OK, now let's take a closer look at what happens when you pull the trigger. The voltage is applied to the solenoid. The capacitor loses its energy and the voltage curve glides down.



Note that the longer the pulse is the less energy is left for the next shot. We'll talk about the optimal pulse width later. The Drozd solenoid is generally an inductor. It means the current flowing through it will grow in linear manner. When the pulse is short the current will grow intil the pulse end. Then it'll drop down flowing through the catch diode.



When the pulse is long enough the current will reach its maximum. This is the point where it's limited by the coil wire resistance. Anyway, the higher voltage you apply the greater current you achieve.



[see next post above for the next part]
[2 edits; Last edit by Sergey_new_pcb at 00:36:34 Mon Mar 1 2010]

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
22:24:06 Fri
Feb 26 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello everyone.

Some figures first. Konstantin reported the following muzzle velocity values :
(At 90 bar pressure with 1 feet 2 inches long rifle barrel using 0.52 g lead balls. One turn of the valve spring was cut off.)

5 ms pulse - 491 fps
7 ms - 623 fps
8, 9 ms - 721...787 fps, not stable

further increase of the pulse width was found not reasonable: no velocity growth with increased air consumption (explanation is given below).

I'd like to share some photo with you. It's the Drozd with serial number 0008!!! Also, notice cyrillic characters that look like "on" in its number - it stands for "experimental". Want more? Take a closer look -- it uses Makarov pistol parts!!!







[Continued on the next page above due to the limited allowed photos number]
[2 edits; Last edit by Sergey_new_pcb at 08:41:15 Sat Feb 27 2010]

  
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drozdandconfused
17:04:17 Fri
Feb 26 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

In the mean time, Constnn, if your reading this, what kind of fps are you getting? Also please list your mods including psi.

Gat, I think your on to something with the heavy gauge solenoid wires. Its an easy mod that can be done to the existing board and should benefit those guns which can handle higher voltages.

Cheers

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
20:13:43 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello everyone.

Slow down! Something is obviously going wrong. The new board is supposed to have similar or better performance compared to Drozd's native unit. All new components interacting with the solenoid are just the same as in the original board and I believe it's a matter of measurement method or mechanical problem. I'm carefully checking the design with the oscilloscope now and so far everything works just fine. I'll have the final results tomorrow so I'm asking everyone to wait one more day -- we'll find what went wrong for sure. Once again -- this new board doen't influence the muzzle velocity directly, it only generates the electric pulses for the solenoid that hits the valve. Pulses are fine, it's something else. More details tomorrow.

Yours,
Sergey Pismensky.

  
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SONYtec
17:25:06 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Totalh,

OK, I guess I didnt realize what the "P" numbers were for!

Thanks for the update!

Keep up the great work.



---
10/02/08 Black '05 Drozd STOCK.
3/13/08 YELLOW '03 DROZD, 9/17/08 full auto mod, 1, 3, Full. ROF mod soon.
07/07 Black '05 Drozd, 8/3/07 resistor mod, 9/20/07 full auto PCB. More to come! (Adjust pot. and solenoid)
Accessories: 8/24/07 PMI HPA tank, remote hose, 9/03/08 JimC barrels and QD adaptors, 10/01/08 JimC CAR stock adaptor. NEED HI-CAP MAGS!!!
 
 
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Gat
15:21:17 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Quote: totalh at 04:53:13 Thu Feb 25 2010

SONYtec,

I am not sure if you can see the picture in my post but I cycled through all pulse width settings on the board starting at P3 and ending at P15. In the picture I wrote Px next to each set of velocity readings. x being replace with 3-15.

For my testing I fired 3 shots through the chrony for each pulse width setting with about 3 seconds in between each shot. With the muzzle 3 feet away from the chrony.

The gun I used in this testing fired an average of 570 fps using a stock board.

Gat,

Regarding the cage match you mentioned, I have no problem doing that for everybody it should be easy enough to setup. However I probably wont be able to get to this until this weekend if time permits. FYI though, my board and a stock board should be almost identical in FPS readings as my chip does nothing to affect the power output of the gun. It only changes burst and rate of fire settings.



Totalh,

Firstly, much thanks for thorough posts!!! I guess it would be redundant to cage match the boards given your BB on a stock board / drozdmax board is producing (570 fps) far more fps than Sergey's (351 fps). Did you hit similar road blocks when designing your chip; as far as, the fps drop that Sergey is dealing with. Did all of Sergey's provided testing boards give similar results? It seems the sweet spot of pusle was P9 on your BB - the PWS is doing what it should...

  
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drozdandconfused
05:30:07 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Definitely low numbers. I'm surprised by p4 being somewhat high fps being a low pulse setting. Then the increase to the optimum setting makes sense. When at optimum the consistency seems to stabilize, then the numbers stay relatively high but probably are inefficient. At first glance, there does not appear to be a dramatic difference in fps, but in %, it is alot.


Totalh, thanks for the stock #, once I get my voltage squared away I will adjust my POT (in very small increments) and these numbers show me that I don't need to adjust it too far cw.

Cheers

  
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totalh
04:53:13 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

SONYtec,

I am not sure if you can see the picture in my post but I cycled through all pulse width settings on the board starting at P3 and ending at P15. In the picture I wrote Px next to each set of velocity readings. x being replace with 3-15.

For my testing I fired 3 shots through the chrony for each pulse width setting with about 3 seconds in between each shot. With the muzzle 3 feet away from the chrony.

The gun I used in this testing fired an average of 570 fps using a stock board.

Gat,

Regarding the cage match you mentioned, I have no problem doing that for everybody it should be easy enough to setup. However I probably wont be able to get to this until this weekend if time permits. FYI though, my board and a stock board should be almost identical in FPS readings as my chip does nothing to affect the power output of the gun. It only changes burst and rate of fire settings.



---
www.drozdmax.com - One stop shopping for all your Drozd and automatic airgun needs.
www.airgunextreme.com - An up and coming airgun site.
 
 
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SONYtec
03:42:31 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Totalh,

What was the pulse width setting when you ran the chrony test?

May have been a short pulse, not letting a lot of gas thru.

Also how far away from the guns muzzle was the chrony?

Allways want to measure from the same distance every time you run the gun thru the chrony.



---
10/02/08 Black '05 Drozd STOCK.
3/13/08 YELLOW '03 DROZD, 9/17/08 full auto mod, 1, 3, Full. ROF mod soon.
07/07 Black '05 Drozd, 8/3/07 resistor mod, 9/20/07 full auto PCB. More to come! (Adjust pot. and solenoid)
Accessories: 8/24/07 PMI HPA tank, remote hose, 9/03/08 JimC barrels and QD adaptors, 10/01/08 JimC CAR stock adaptor. NEED HI-CAP MAGS!!!
 
 
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Gat
03:05:51 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust


I guess an apples to apples test (cage match if you will) with the same BB - keeping the bottle full / volts consistent but swapping the boards (stock vs drodzmax vs Sergey's) would help me with the full picture.

Lower gauge wires to the solenoid and up to 24v flowing through the board makes me think even on a somewhat stock BB Sergey's work will be hard to beat!
:wink:

When can I get one of these??

  
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totalh
02:27:55 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Sorry for not clarifying. Those numbers are in feet per second (FPS).

And yes you are correct these numbers are low. Sergey is trying to figure out what could be causing the low numbers as we speak.



---
www.drozdmax.com - One stop shopping for all your Drozd and automatic airgun needs.
www.airgunextreme.com - An up and coming airgun site.
 
 
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windage
02:13:04 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

These results I have trouble understanding. Is this in meters/second or feet/second. If it is fps, then I would say my stock BB is alot faster. Stock speed was around 420 fps. Bulk 800 psi and 10.5 volts (the rest stock) is right at 490 fps.

  
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totalh
00:23:20 Thu
Feb 25 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello everybody here are some FPS numbers on Sergey's board. These numbers were obtained using 16.2 volts measured with a meter before the tests. The solenoid was already put into the "optimum" position before the testing. In the image below you will see two sets of numbers the first set was obtained with 16.2v and a half full bottle. The second set of numbers were obtained with 16.2v and a fresh fill. For air I used HPA at ~800-900 psi. Other than what I mentioned the gun is otherwise stock.

Here are the results....sorry for the scan I was lazy.




I seen that drozdandconfused wanted to know what the factory pulse width was and on a board that I measured just last week on an oscilloscope the factory pulse width was set to 6.5 mS.

I hope this helps.

Ray
[2 edits; Last edit by totalh at 00:38:56 Thu Feb 25 2010]



---
www.drozdmax.com - One stop shopping for all your Drozd and automatic airgun needs.
www.airgunextreme.com - An up and coming airgun site.
 
 
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drozdandconfused
06:50:17 Wed
Feb 24 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Well I wont insist, but I was curious to see where the stock adjustment is in relation to your range.

Cheers

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
03:12:28 Wed
Feb 24 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Greetings drozdandconfused!

Unfurtunalelly :biggrin: , I only dealt with people who started modding their birds right after purchasing them. So, I had no single chance to measure the original pulse setting but if you insist I can call my classmate who works at Baikal.

  
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drozdandconfused
02:12:41 Wed
Feb 24 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Sergey, I have to say the more I read and think about your design the more extraordinary it really is. To be able to control digitally the precise amount of time the solenoid holds the valve open, while also being able to apply the necessary voltage to allow the solenoid to hit, hold to the exact mS, reset and do it repeatedly at 1200 rpm not only reduces the chance of voltage fade but also seems that the individual shot velocity should remain more consistent during rapid fire. I recall a post from the other forum where someone was looking for consistency over power. The shorter the pulse, the less gas delivered (set below 500fps) but at the same amount every time. Or set it at the highest power with the same consistent results. 10 rpm settings and a bean counter too. Wow!

Off hand, do you know the approximate value of the factory setting of the POT in mS for the blackbird @ 9V?

Thanks

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
02:56:28 Tue
Feb 23 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello Peter.

It's easy. There are three buttons on the left side of the PCB (see photos in the beginning of the thread). The third button displays/sets solenoid pulse duration. If you press it once, current pulse duration will be shown at the display. Also, "P" char will be shown in the leftmost position (for "Pulse"). If you don't press any buttons within three seconds, the display will return to its default mode showing the shots counter. If you press this button again within these 3 seconds the value will be increased by one millisecond. If it was 15 mS (maximum) the value will be reset to 3 mS (minimum) instead of increasing. Further presses will add 1 mS to the value. When a new value is set, it's stored in the non-volatile memory, you won't have to set it again when you turn on the power next time.

When you try to adjust it with the potentiometer you have no idea about the value you actually choose -- it's a "relative" adjustment. Also, you need to drill a hole in front of the pot. With the new board you can change the pulse duration anytime and know its value.

Yours,
Sergey Pismensky.

  
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green_dots
02:17:20 Tue
Feb 23 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Greetings Sergey. I am a little confused.Will this new feature allow me to adjust the pulse duration.Right now we have the POT and it requires a small screw driver to adjust and it is very time consuming and difficult to do.You can only see it and adjust it on the older drozd but on the Blackbird there is no hole cut out to be able to do this.Please explain the procedure for changing the pulse duration on your new board when installed in the gun. GD.

  
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Sergey_new_pcb
00:21:40 Tue
Feb 23 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Hello and welcome, Gat!

Any batteries with voltages between 9 and 24 volts that can supply sufficient current will do.

As for the voltage applied to the magazine motor -- yes, it's the same as in the off-the-shelf Drozd Blackbird and even more stable because batteries condition doesn't influence it anymore.

I don't have the graph of the velocity/voltage curve as it also depends on factors like pressure, barrel length etc. Obviously, higher voltage makes the solenoid core accelerate faster and inject bigger portions of gas into the barrel. After you install the new PCB you'll be able to set the pulse duration according to your BB configuration to get optimal velocity and CO2/HPA consumption. Note these two figures are mutually dependant. Also, you'll be able to adjust the pulse duration on-the-go when your batteries go weaker.

Yours,
Sergey Pismensky.

  
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Gat
20:35:16 Mon
Feb 22 2010

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Re: New electronics for Drozd (9-24V, 300-1200 RPM, 3-15 mS digital pulse adjust

Velocity difference from say from 15.4 vs. the 24?

6 3.7v (AA configured) Lithium Ions charged to 4v in the stock compartment possible / ideal?

Out going volts to the mag motor similar to stock levels? Don't won't to split my mag along the bb channel.:rotflmao:

  
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