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23 people online in the last 60 minutes - 0 members, 0 anon and 23 guests. (Most ever was 121 at 02:27:28 Wed Oct 19 2011) |
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brandon41 17:09:13 Thu Aug 5 2010 Offline 3 posts BBMG Newbie Reply |
Hi, been throwing ideas around and I have tried a few regarding this BB feed mech/magazine thing. I'm using similar components as you are to make a nice BB mach. gun. But this.....the ENTIRE BB mag/feed thing is killin me! Where exactly and how exactly to attach & utilize a feed into any given part of the gun is a tangled web it seems. Because I have tried using air to push, tried using spring-fed designs, the 'timing' of air to BBs is testing my ingenuity, and my patience. I am seriously considering paying a mech engineer to put together a nice working design and share it on here. I have'nt yet tried this.......below....it's a link to the walther ppks bb-gun magazines. Undersatnding these are designed for Semi-fire, they may have the secret ingredient. They don't let BBs out until air hits em....period! Check it....and if you'd like to throw some ideas around with me....send me a line. I'd like to figure this one out with a working design that suits ANY power put to it. Lemm know.... http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Walther_PPK_S_magazines_3_Clips_15_BBs_clip_Save_3_00_Time/130 Brandon M. (brandon.marshall41@gmail.com) | ||||
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SONYtec 12:30:59 Thu May 6 2010 Offline 3691 posts BBMG LIFE BLASTER +2000 .gif) Reply |
Very nice!!!
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gears80 02:23:43 Wed Feb 27 2008 Offline 83 posts BBMG Colonel Reply |
The bb loads in the chamber the same as a paintball would, except a smaller ball .177 dia. I turned a tube .690 OD with a hole .177 ID about 2" long. A cross hole to the center to drop the bb to allow the bolt to chamber and fire. The barrel is c'bored into that plug to align perfectly. Everything is o-ringed and sealed.
You are right about the tube mag. I didn't use a seal and I tried to get the air pressure from a port neer the end of the barrel. I was hopping the waste air would b enough. Whe I held my finger over the port I could feel a good amount of air. I just went to a spring because this gun is a test of power and cycle speed. I have an other gun that uses air to load the bb. A spring loaded cylinder moves forward to load and seal the chamber when fired. | ||||
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miltecarms 19:20:20 Tue Feb 26 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
I see, very convient and sounds effective.
I actually was thinking, in the past, about a similar mod to allow for the bb to bolt feed. Have you tried this for the air fed mag: When you've established the tube magazine, take a piece of plastic, oh say 1/4 of an inch long (or what ever is apropiate), lath two groves in it spaced evenly apart and put an o-ring on each grove. This will allow for the piece to form a seal, and having two o-rings will prevent the piece from lodging at an angle. With air pressure behind it, positive feed, it should constantly push the bb's. Kinda' like a piston. I tried this with great results - decided to go with an airsoft mag due to the realism though. Also, I had drilled a little hole at the end of the tube magazines travel point (empty point) to allow for gas bypass so as to not lodge the little o-ring ram in the tubes angle under the gas pressure. Man, I would really like to see a picture of the bolt set up to see actually how the bb's ge fed into the barrel assembly. Great work. Phil | ||||
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Tbkahuna  17:10:53 Tue Feb 26 2008 Offline 1671 posts BBMG MASTER BLASTER +1000  Reply |
That is nice! I like it in the wood stock.
What kind of velocity do you get? Did you try it without the moving bolt like miltecarms did? That is what I am working on now with one of my Spyders. Is it .177 or 6mm? | ||||
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gears80 05:06:18 Tue Feb 26 2008 Offline 83 posts BBMG Colonel Reply |
Ask as many questions as you like. This still isn't the ultimate yet. This one is #4 gun. I have more pictures of #5 I will get to later. Or maybe start a thread on it. First your questions on this one.
The spyder body, trigger frame and the internals. The upper bolt is modified by cutting back the front some and adding a .177 dia. tube pressed in the port. The tube then slides in and out of the bb chamber. the gas goes through the tube to fire the bb. The bb port is through the top. The bottom tube with the valve is not changed. Under the chamber is a magnet to suck the bbs down so the bolt can cram them into the chamber and fire. The chamber and bolt are slip fit as tight as possible as to still allow movement. The tube mag is spring loaded like a .22 LR mag. It is two tubes, one inside of the other. One has the spring and one has the bbs, then slide them together. I tried air pressure to feed the bbs, but couldn't get it to work right. I still think air could work. There is a bend in the bb path to direct them to the hole. A lot of trials and errors with that design, but it works and is fast. Doesn't miss a beat. The trigger frame is gutted and is just the switch and a 16000 uf cap. It holds down the sear. The spyder circuit is to slow. Dave | ||||
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miltecarms 03:21:22 Tue Feb 26 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
Very nice indeed!
Does it use the Spyder upper and lower assembly (whole PB gun)? I can tell the trigger frame is complete, but not the upper due to the stock. Which portion is the barrel - upper tube, or lower? How exactly does it feed the BBs? Gravity fed, or gas fed? And, how does it load BBs into the barrel? Many, many questions. Sorry to ask sooo many questions, but I gotta know for my own R and D. Very cool. | ||||
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gears80 02:53:42 Tue Feb 26 2008 Offline 83 posts BBMG Colonel Reply |
Here is the spyder valve. This is .177 cal with 100 rd tube magazine. If the foto doesn't show up then the video
Movie http://media.putfile.com/177-cal http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/gears80/177bsmall.jpg | ||||
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drexarmixelflix 05:38:42 Fri Feb 22 2008 Offline 124 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
impressive work! please keep us posted on your progress. a long time ago i modified stingray gun to shoot 6mm by changing feed location and modified bolt, the velocity was scary, it shattered some of the bb's on impact, unfortunately i also shattered many in the chamber due to inadaquate gravity feed and detroyed the mechanism.
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miltecarms 00:57:25 Thu Feb 21 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
Well, it's not my mechanism per se, but I got ya'. The diameter of the unit is roughly an inch, length is around 8-9 inches, height is around 2-2.5 inches.
You know, currently all of our stuff is in storage until our home is finished being constructed. I logged in to Photo Bucket to see if there were any old construction/build pictures - you are in luck my friend. Here is a picture of the unit installed in the lower reciever. http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e378/philipbeth/DSCN0645.jpg | ||||
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Tbkahuna 20:51:09 Wed Feb 20 2008 Offline 1671 posts BBMG MASTER BLASTER +1000 Reply |
I just checked my single tube drawing and my revision notes. It looks like I can very easily have it less than 6" in total length, and probably around 5" so it should be a lot easier to drop in about any format gun. It was going to be a lot more difficult to do an MP5 with the moving front bolt. It is good news that I don't need to worry about that.
I had always thought that the air pressure would affect the magazine- mostly from what I heard about the Drozd. I can hardly wait to try it with just the direct feed of air. I'll try to post some pictures/drawings tonight to see if there are any comments or suggestions. Miltecarms, what are the dimensions of your mechanism? Is the diameter a little over an inch? Thanks for the info! | ||||
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miltecarms 19:14:26 Wed Feb 20 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
The valve itself has three ports. Intake port for gas (top part w/the sending tube), one for the projectile, one for blowing the bolt back. Imagaine a plumbing "T" inverted.
Actually the pressure doesn't effect the mag spring at all. I thought this too, untill I physically tried it. That little tube is positioned just far enough to allow bb's to enter the breech block. I also installed a little magnet to prevent bb's from accidently rolling out of the breech. | ||||
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Tbkahuna 15:16:31 Wed Feb 20 2008 Offline 1671 posts BBMG MASTER BLASTER +1000 Reply |
I think I got it (partly). You don't use the front bolt, so the thin tube just pressurizes right behind the BBs at the top of the magazine. I have thought that would blow the BBs in the magazine down against the pressure of the magazine spring and make it slow to get another BB back up there or at least make the feeding inconsistent. That is excellent news that I had an incorrect assumption there!!! That definitely removes another item from the equation.
I didn't understand how the air in the valve mechanism goes forward through the thin tube that you have terminate right behind the BBs in the magazine. It looks like the air comes in the top back of part #26 and into the small air chamber behind the valve and seal parts #11 and #12. It looks like the seal seals off against part #22 Then when the hammer hits the stem, the air is released with some going backwards against the hammer to recock, and the rest going forward through the little tube. How does the air get from the chamber that is closed off by the valve seal into the thin tube? | ||||
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miltecarms 13:16:20 Wed Feb 20 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
Here is a link, specifically, for the schematics.
http://www.brasseagle.com/products/exploded_view2.asp?item_num=1410&cat=Markers Part #4 is used to 'ram' the paintball forward as it drops from the hopper tube - I didn't use this at all. You will notice the rammer on the end; the tube that goes inside of that is fixed. I simply, when I built the gun, allowed for that to be fixed approx .20 from the breech of the barrel - basically allowing enough room for the bb's to feed in between the breech and that tube which is the valve exhaust (front portion) all this was then contained in an outter steel case (already provided on the Winchester 1000X air rifle I used as the barrel and breech). so to not allow any gas waste. The bolt travel is determined by the fluting on the valve body case (part #27). When the bolt (part #52) o-ring area pases this opening the bolt can travel no more due to the gas release (the port breaks the seal). The bolt only travels around 3/4 of an inch. This could be altered by porting new holes in the tube assembly that contains the bolt, valve, spring etc (part #52 again). Any faster cycle would be odd. It cyles so fast anyhow. I made the lower frame (Compact A, Kingman) to function exactly like a real select fire weapon by making a roller cam activated by a little lever. The internal mechnism is only a little 1/8 inch dimater rod with a spring that prevent the sear from engaging the bolt until trigger is let up, for full auto. As for the valve itself (part #26) it is self contained and does not work the same as many other PB markers' valves on the market. This particular valve actually is a two way set up. Once the bolt strikes it gas is released from both ends instantaniously so the PB is propelled forward as the bolt is propelled rearward. However, the bolt and part #8 move in secession to one another [ Continued ] View Rest Of Post | ||||
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Tbkahuna 03:43:14 Wed Feb 20 2008 Offline 1671 posts BBMG MASTER BLASTER +1000 Reply |
No chrony results- I didn't have one at the time. It wasn't very powerful at 125 psi, though. I was just excited that it actually cycled.
I finally had a chance to look at the Stingray parts list. That operates a lot like the Tippmanns. Did you leave the bolt travel the same as the hammer travel? That is the design I used for my Thompson. It fit in the space allowed, but I tried to come up with ways to shorten it so it would work in the MP5 size guns. I haven't built it, but do have a couple of ideas to use a spring to limit the front bolt travel and keep a seal while the air is forcing the projectile out. I figured it would lose a lot of velocity when it was turning the air around and sending it forward. I bought a Tippmann Custom to use as a parts gun! It has the full auto handle and solenoid, with adjustable rate of fire. It would make a slick set up! Everything I have come up with uses an open bolt design. I have a number of ideas for trying a closed bolt design, but I think that will be a LOT more work to perfect. Do you have any pictures of the valve body that shows the air passage and how it gets redirected forward? | ||||
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gears80 02:12:52 Wed Feb 20 2008 Offline 83 posts BBMG Colonel Reply |
What is #ff shot.
I have one gun (.177) using a spyder valve. I will get a video of the action this weekend for you to see how fast it is. Dave | ||||
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miltecarms 21:14:14 Tue Feb 19 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
Being that you used HPA, 125 psi, what were the chrono results, if you took any? Or, how far out could you reliably hit a target?
I will check the Spyder valves out again. Does your Spyder valve set up use a cycling bolt like a real firearm? That's why I decided upon the Stingray valve unit - it uses a sub frame to contain the bolt, valve, Co2 tank threaded unit, and the C02 sending tube to the valve. Basically, the entire unit was perfect for my 'drop in' design of the nbew gun it would be placed in. Worked very well. My new gun will use more paintball valve parts. | ||||
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Tbkahuna 13:17:02 Tue Feb 19 2008 Offline 1671 posts BBMG MASTER BLASTER +1000 Reply |
Rock on!!
I've been using the Spyder valves from several years ago as I seemed to find them cheap and you could easily get replacement seals. I did a conversion to shoot approximately 1/2" diameter marbles. I used a grey PVC barrel. I scaled the valve down from paintball size and used it in my first action. I used the full size cup seal, but the whole valve was only 1/2" diameter. The action cycled (very fast) on 125 psi from the air compressor, but it was built for 1000+ psi. I will try the S-arms airsoft magazine. I've used a TM magazine from my Thompson and it would feed the 6mm steel pretty well. | ||||
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miltecarms 01:36:32 Tue Feb 19 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
That S-Arms mag is very reasonable in price - just as good in quality as all the others and actually functions better than most. I decided upon it by chance when I purchased it.
The first airsoft mag was Tokyo Mauri M16/M4 190 round wind up style (short mag in apperance). Basically, I redesigned the mag using the deminsions for a .177 bb, as airsoft mags are designed for 6mm bbs. I re-made the feed gear in aluminum - spacing the teeth proportionately to the .177 bbs - two fed per tooth spacing just like in 6mm. I also made the feed channel to size along with the exit port of the mag (with brass tubing) and remade the little spring guided retainer which prevents the bbs from spewing out under the spring tension. The mag works well, but has to be wound three times to empty the whole thing. I'm really excited to make this new one using the #ff shot and/or 1/4 inch ball bearings. Little tip: Daisy sells a 250 count box of steel 1/4 inch ball bearings as sling shot ammo for 3-5 bucks. Beats buying them for 10 cents a peice at a hardware store! | ||||
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gears80 06:06:49 Mon Feb 18 2008 Offline 83 posts BBMG Colonel Reply |
The preformance sounds great with .177 balls. Good job.
I bought the s-arms airsoft mag you sugested and it works great with .241 lead balls. I thank you very much for that. What mag did you convert for 250 .177 balls, and how much work is it to make them feed right? | ||||
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miltecarms 00:05:11 Mon Feb 18 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
Thanks!
Yes, the unit is all inline. The entire valve assembly is from the "Brass Eagle Stingray" paintball marker - didn't use the paintball ram from it though (didn't need it). I encourage all who are interested in building bb machine guns to check the valve out. The schematics can be found at Brass Eagle's web site along with all their other guns. With the velocity turned down near all the way closed it is shooting (Chrono last year - summer) 840-52 fps. Turned half open it is shooting 960-80 fps. It will completely shred 1/2 inch plywood at 40-50 feet with moderate accuracy. The grouping is around eight inches at 50 feet. Also, I must say, it shoots the entire 250 round mag under 8 seconds! That's roughly 30 rounds a second! I bought seven Stingray markers a couple of years ago from a local, now out of business, paintball supply store for 20 dollars used, all working! Hell yeah! I gotta tell ya', I've fired a Drozd that I ordered from a gun shop and simply DID NOT LIKE IT PERIOD. I even paid a seven dollar restocking fee - that's how much I hated that damn thing. The Drozd IS a bit more accurate than my machine gun. I like a cycling bolt, not some electronic selonoid firing a valve. I did take a peek at the Drozd Blackbird - I would have to hold and fire it to see if I like it. As it is now, hate the way it looks. On a more serious note, I really think more airgun manufacturers need to get on board to establish some market competition - not airsoft, but .177 or .22 cal. | ||||
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Tbkahuna 13:19:49 Fri Feb 15 2008 Offline 1671 posts BBMG MASTER BLASTER +1000 Reply |
That looks great!!!
It looks like the valve and hammer must be inline. Is that correct? What kind of velocity do you get? | ||||
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gears80 19:57:32 Wed Jan 30 2008 Offline 83 posts BBMG Colonel Reply |
Thanks for the information on the mags. #4 buck has a coating to help with deformation. Strong springs don't seem to change the ball.
I have built two guns with sealed chambers and one with a bore smaller than the .241 lead ball. It uses an air cylinder to cram the ball in the chamber, then fire the hpa valve up to 2500 psi. I am going to try to post two videos on youtube. | ||||
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miltecarms 19:30:35 Tue Jan 29 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
I think one of the problems with lead bbs is that they, under the load of the spring, begin to develope flat spots since lead is rather soft. I dunno, I wouldn't think that the srping would cause that much stress, but hey.
I'd like to see your bb gun if you are able to post pictures. | ||||
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miltecarms 19:27:04 Tue Jan 29 2008 Offline 211 posts BBMG Brigadier General * Reply |
Hey there, been a while. The mag is a generic brand, but does have an ouuter shell made out of metal (M4/M16 mag variant) designed for CA, TM, basically all the main brands.
The first 10-20 bbs wouldn'd feed super smooth, but the mag did feed all the bbs. The mag is a 160 round non wind up mag that works the same as the traditional 80 round mags (double stacked bbs). The internals are designed to be a coil, or drum if you will. That's it, its basically a drum dressed as a standard mag. Since the mag hold so many, I planned on only putting 130 bbs or so to save on the spring load. | ||||
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gears80 00:21:51 Mon Jan 28 2008 Offline 83 posts BBMG Colonel Reply |
I was reading your post in the drozd section about the 6mm mag ejecting the intire load of .250 steel balls. Have you tried a load of .241 lead #4 shot? All of the airsoft mags I have tried don't seem to work with steel 6mm or the lead because of the wieght. I have built a gun to fire .241 lead with a tight bore barrel and on hpa. The magazine is a tube on top of the barrel that holds 80 rds. It is impressive.
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Schrapnel_Life 17:05:55 Wed Jan 23 2008 Offline 14 posts BBMG Private 1st Class Reply |
My condolences to your mis-fortune @ having wussie-milquetoasts-politicians elected to "lead". There's a lot of that ridiculousness in the States as well, but it's largely confined to where all the Leftist tree-huggers live on the coasts. Stupid "liberals" prevent honest law-abiding citizens from even procuring parts to repair AIR-GUNS, while they turn a blind eye to predatory criminals armed to the teeth with illegal FIREARMS! I've seen other posts from UK citizens and Europeans saying the Drozd they buy is de-balled and castrated; it's just like a Leftist to be afraid of a BB gun, Leftie-homo-wankers.  | ||||||
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Schrapnel_Life 16:08:43 Wed Jan 23 2008 Offline 14 posts BBMG Private 1st Class Reply |
Nice job, miltecarms! Very impressive, I'd like to add my $.02 on wanting to see a video of that w/ sound, I bet it's awesome!
If you don't mind a question, how much did it cost, roughly, to bring it all together? And will you sell the plans? That thing is sweet and highly likely to be very deadly to every-day pests. Again, excellent job! | ||||
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RecycledHero 01:04:12 Sat Nov 4 2006 Offline 53 posts BBMG Sergeant Reply |
That is really somthing , good job
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dochock 18:57:35 Sat Oct 28 2006 Offline 33 posts BBMG Corporal Reply |
Hi, I am definately interested in designing the same type of bb machine gun as you did. I will need some help in knowing what materials were used and the actual setup where the magazine and the bolt and barrel meet to be exact. I am familiar with the stingrays simplicity and understand how its mechanism works. Also I I was wondering was it very difficult converting the kingman trigger frame to work with the setup? I definatly will need a little additional help before I will begin. Also, For the steel L's, Are those required or can one make the sides out of aluminum to make it easier to work with since I also dont have no fancy tools just a hand drill, hack saw, and dremel tool for use mostly with also plenty of other hand tools. If you could, Please email me At Dhock2001@hotmail.com for more information. | ||||
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