5" dredge question?
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blackjeep
00:00:34 Sat
May 15 2010
5" dredge question?
I have an older 5" Keene triple sluice dredge I'm hoping to use in Oregon this summer. I was thinking of welding a 4" ring on the nozzle with some spacers holding it out from the original opening. Would this give me enough water flow for the sluice? I understand Or. is going by nozzle size this year? Thanks, Jim

UncleMark
01:12:30 Sat
May 15 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
Yes Jim,
at this time it looks like the nozzle size in Oregon will be 4".
You can replace the ring on a five inch nozzle with a four inch ring, making it a four inch nozzle. You will have to space the ring to get enough waterflow through the dredge to keep it working properly. The common way is to weld the ring to the nozzle on the bottom side, and space the top out about 3/4 of an inch. Besides welding a spacer on the top, you will also need an additional spacer on each side.

Here is a link to AKmining's website that has pictures of nozzles to make this easier to understand.

http://www.akmining.com/cart/suction_nozzles_and_suction_tips.htm

The other thing to remember is Oregon has a HP limit also.

Mark

bearkat
07:25:44 Sun
May 16 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
As per the fact sheet for the new 700 DEQ regs...a individual NPDES permit can be obtained for dredges larger than 4" at a cost of $300.00??

How to do it? I'm still working on that part. Trying to get that info ASAP.


UncleMark
17:20:28 Sun
May 16 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
In Oregon, as of right now, the Oregon State Appeals court has declared the ODEQ permit invalid, but has not made it's final ruling.

ODEQ is still selling 700PM NPDES permits and is working on a new 700PM NPDES permit that will take effect in June.

http://www.deq.state.or.us/WQ/wqpermit/mining.htm

Prior to that ruling, you had to have a permit from both the Oregon state department of lands and ODEQ. The free permit from the dept of lands also has a four inch limit.

http://www.oregonstatelands.us/DSL/PERMITS/ga_placerinfo.shtml

The state lands free general permit limits you to 50 cyds of material or 25 cyds of material in a salmon stream before you have to apply for an individual fill/removal permit.

http://www.oregonstatelands.us/DSL/PERMITS/r-fintro.shtml

You can obtain a permit for a larger dredge from the state dept of lands and the US Army Corps of Engineers. Joint permit. It will cost around a thousand dollars and it takes up to three months to get.

http://www.oregon.gov/DSL/PERMITS/docs/rf_fees.pdf

You are also required to fill out a year end report for the dept of lands, or they can invalidate your free permit.

You can only dredge within the times listed by Oregon Fish & Wildlife.

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/lands/inwater/

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/lands/inwater/Oregon_Guidelines_for_Timing_of_%20InWater_Work2008.pdf

I hope this info helps,

Mark

bearkat
17:41:34 Sun
May 16 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
Mark,

Is the DEQ/NPDES permit the same as individual fill/removal permit? If so, I think they are, and from the fact sheet about th new 700 regs it will only be $300.
Hopefully anyway. Here is the link about the 6" fact sheet. http://www.deq.state.or.us/wq/wqpermit/docs/General/TownHallMining/700PMGPFactSheetPREDRAFT.pdf

Its on page 5...also this is an updated version from just a few weeks ago which previous version it said $300. Now it says just "low cost". I have a copy of both.

Thanks for all your info.

markB
08:43:39 Mon
May 17 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
From what I've heard the 700 permit being issued expires June 2010. The new permit is still to come.

UncleMark
14:17:05 Mon
May 17 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
bearkat,

Your answer is no, they are not the same permit.

The DEQ permit, called a 700PM NPDES, is actually a permit from the Oregon Department of Environmental Quality. It is a permit that is actually issued from the Federal agency, EPA, based on authorization from the Clean Water Act, sections 401 and 402.

The Oregon Department of State Lands, (DSL), has a separate
authorization, called a "recreational and small scale mining authorization". It is issued by the Oregon DSL and is free because SDL regulatory authority is based on the Clean Water Act, section 404 and the Federal agency, United States Army Corps of Engineers is chartered with regulating section 404 of the Clean Water Act, and the US Amy Corps has determined that 4" and smaller dredges and in-stream hand equipment to not create a discharge that needs a 404 permit, more commonly known as a fill/removal permit.

Before I go into both of these separate state agency requirements further, I just want to mention that the links to the websites for all of this are in my post above.

The proposed ODEQ 700PM NPDES permit is not yet finalized. It is supposed to, at this time, apply to four inch and smaller dredges, and for hand use in-stream equipment like a sluice box or rocker box. If you want to use a dredge larger than a 4", supposedly there is going to be a "low cost" individual NPDES permit for larger nozzles. The thing to remember here is that this new 700PM NPDES permit has not been completed, so any of the above could change.

The SDL authorization, is free, and is for 4" and smaller dredges, and hand equipment used in-stream like a sluice box or rocker box, just like the ODEQ permit, however, it is not actually a permit per say. If you want to use a dredge larger than a 4", the Oregon Department of State Lands requires you to apply for a Fill/Removal permit. This is a permit issued by the US Army Corps Of Engineers and the DSL, authorized by the Clean Water Act, section 404. You have to fill out an application and mail it to both of those agencies, and the price is hard to figure out, because the DSL sheet for fees is not a very easy sheet to figure out, but it looks like the cost would be about $1000.00 . I am not really sure if there is a separate fee required from the US Army Corps of Engineers.

Now this is where it actually gets sticky, and I am speaking from my opinion, I am not a lawyer, and this is not the 49ers Club stance, this is my personal feelings and opinions.

This last August, 2009, the United States Supreme Court made a ruling that said that a mining operation that creates a "discharge of dredged or fill" material to be placed in a waterway, is to be regulated solely under the Clean Water Act section 404 by the US Army Corps of Eng. and that the EPA has no Authority to regulate that "discharge" or to apply any other part of the Clean Water Act upon that operation, even if the Army Corps requires no permit. That is the Coeur Alaska ruling. It is the current legal precedent on this issue.

The EPA does not believe that the Coeur Alaska decision applies to dredging. I can understand why. It takes away their ability to control you. If you understand that the 9th circuit court of appeals even got this wrong, it is no wonder that the EPA has this wrong.

Now, this last Dec., the Oregon State appeals court decided that the ODEQ 700PM NPDES permit exceeds the authority of ODEQ and said that permit is invalid. The Oregon State Appeals court has not issued a final written ruling as of yet, though I may be wrong. The Oregon appeal court did state that it appeared the authority to regulate dredging lies with the Oregon Department of State lands.

So there are some who say that they are just going to get the DSL authorization because even though ODEQ claims you have to have their permit also, many miners believe they do not have the legal authority to require a Federal NPDES permit, and that the 700PM permit has been declared invalid.

It is your responsibility to make your own legal decisions, and seek the advice of a licensed lawyer if necessary. I am not offering legal advice in any way, and don't any of you say I have. I am only writing my opinion on these issues as I understand them

bearkat
06:40:35 Fri
May 21 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
Mark you sure do your home work well on this issue. Much apprieciated as I am going to dredge in Oregon this year as I live there now in Medford and will be closer then Cali, this info is great help.

Seems the Supreme Court ruling on dredge/fill should settle this easily, but the greenies are a picky bunch.

Alan

UncleMark
23:47:17 Sun
May 23 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
From what I understand, the EOMA has filed an appeal with the Oregon State Supreme court. They are waiting to see if the court will hear the case.

dragonbob
23:55:25 Thu
Jun 10 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
My understanding is that the size they are talking is the hose size not the nozzle size.
Bob

UncleMark
01:08:58 Fri
Jun 11 2010
Re: 5" dredge question?
Bob,

Both ODEQ and the Oregon dept of state land permits regulate nozzle size, not hose size, just like the permits in California and Washington and Idaho and Alaska do.

Mark



5" dredge question?
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