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irv1028 Offline 35 posts Reply |
As of today I was told by Fish & Game no booming within 100 yards of the water way. Has any one else been told this. Everyone I have seen booming is within 100 feet or so. He sad that virtually eliminates all booming.
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Real49er Offline 248 posts Reply |
Did you get the name of the F&G employee who gave you this information, and did you ask them where that is written in the regs?
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Dave_Mack Offline 320 posts Administrator  Reply |
Yes; we need the name of the officer and what office he works out of?
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
People are currently booming in the Klamath drainage and enjoying themselves, safe in the knowledge that they are legal. Go on down to the diggins and speak with 'em.
CDFG should give up their jurisdiction which overlaps upon USFS and BLM concerning out of the water mining. I believe booming falls under the jurisdiction of USFS and BLM. They have been out to inspect our diggins and politely gave us their blessing. The feds are rankled at the state. A mountain has been made out of a highbanker's tailing pile and the state is being told to back off. The feds on this booming question are alligned with the innocent miners. The state illegally restricted dredging and the feds are not going to allow the state to harm out of the water mining. People are being encourged to seek the higher authority. CDFG has no opinion nor regulations concerning booming. Booming is not dredging. They have restricted dredging and nothing additional. Everybody needs to do their homework and differentiate between legal booming and illegal dredging. For example, we use a booming nozzle and not a dredging nozzle, same for pump, hoses, and etc. If you foolishly break the long standing rules of proper runoff control, non back filling excavations, knowing who's claim you are on, and so forth, then shame on you, it will get expensive. Rod |
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irv1028 Offline 35 posts Reply |
I think his name started with Mc. He is the same one that gave Avery on the Scott a problem with the size of his hole last year. I can get his name from Avery Monday. We weren't doing anything wrong just said we were not allowed to boom within 100 yards of the waterway, we could only high bank.
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old_gold_miner Offline 103 posts Reply |
CDFG is limited to IN-STREAM regulation only.
Per SB 670 you cannot have a SUCTION DREDGE within 100 yards of a CA waterway. A high banker IS NOT A SUCTION DREDGE. |
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Real49er Offline 248 posts Reply |
Booming, properly done, is highbanking and not dredging!
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irv1028 Offline 35 posts Reply |
We were told by the fish & game it is illegal to 100 yards.
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aunuts Offline 201 posts Reply |
Join PLP and/or get one of their cards that a gubment agent needs to complete before you ask or answer questions. Not knowing who gave you that info is regretable.
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markB Offline 210 posts Reply |
I'm not sure about that "polite" and get off with a warning these days. It would be allot better to get reps. from the various agencies together and hash it out. I sure hate it when I have to look over my shoulder, worried about doing something wrong.
Irv, were you on one of the 49'er claims?? |
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irv1028 Offline 35 posts Reply |
Yes I was.
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UncleMark Offline 624 posts Reply |
Look,
Dave and others have already asked for clarification on the booming issue from CDF&G. As I understand it, the outcome was that CDF&G would allow booming, which is an out of water mining activity. I also understood that the club would be actively involved if this became an issue with anyone booming on club property. So let me say this, there are some important responsibilities that members have to do to help these situations. As Rod wrote, it is extremely important that your contact with any enforcement officers be 100% polite and professional. Your behavior and attitude will directly reflect on how the authorities view us. Make sure you know who it is you are talking with. Get a name, and write it down. Most enforcement officers have business cards, and if you ask for one it will have all the officers info on it. Remember, please don't be rude about this. Contact the club immediately, and provide accurate information so that the issue can be dealt with by the club in a professional and non confrontational manner. The New 49ers has prided itself as a club by having excellent working relationships with all the organizations that have regulatory authority over the clubs activities. If you, the members of this club can do these few things when dealing with authorities, it would help tremendously in maintaining the professional relationships the club has with those groups. Irv, you were not told by CDF&G, you were told by a single officer of CDF&G, there is a difference. I am sorry that this has happened, but I am sure the club is working on this, please be patient. To answer a few other comments. First, CDF&G is responsible for managing all wildlife not just fish, hence fish and game. The no suction dredge within 100 yards of a closed waterway is a CDF&G rule that was in effect prior to SB-670, and was not part of SB-670. SB-670 only banned motorized mining methods within the water. Mark |
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UncleMark Offline 624 posts Reply |
All I can say is there are a lot of technical legal issues being dealt with on this issue. I am sure that Dave will have something to say about this as soon as there is a major change.
Mark |
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old_gold_miner Offline 103 posts Reply |
Gold hit an all time high today.
Fine time for the CA regulators to try & stop all gold mining. Thats California for you. |
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UncleMark Offline 624 posts Reply |
I see the gold price and cry. To bad those at CDF&G are playing hardball over the booming issue.
CDF&G should sit back and wait for the EIR before they start trying to regulate things that they didn't give a dang about in the past. Trying to use SB-670 as a reason to regulate things that have been determined to not create an adverse impact on fish or wildlife is a cheap shot. As far as the 100 yard regulation, as I read it it says no vacuum or suction dredge, it does not say anything about suction equipment. A modified highbanker is not a suction dredge. |
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
Yep, we're tangled up in our own shoe laces. The #$*&^(* CDFG letter back to Dave's question was pure lawyer double talk. That's why I chose to quote our lawyer's interpretation, he gets paid to interpret the BS for us laymen.
Rod |
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ward35 Offline 103 posts Reply |
With all the talk about Booming, is booming superior or easier than typical highbanking?
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UncleMark Offline 624 posts Reply |
There is no such thing as easy when it comes to mining, regardless of how it is done. Mining is very hard work, and most people underestimate the effort it takes.
I would say that the major advantage of booming is that it allows you to clean the bedrock much more efficiently, which is typically where most gold is lost just using shovels. It really does not allow you to move that much more material than working with a shovel does. Some say that not having to shovel all the material into the highbanker or into buckets is easier, but that is debatable when you consider being bent over while booming is hard on the lower back. Also, because there is usually no visibility, plug ups are common. There are different issues with each location when mining out of the active water way. Some deposits do not allow you to work them wet because of the geography and the inability to create a pool to recirculate your water so that you do not allow any shore sediment to enter the existing water way, so your only choice then is to set up your highbanker in a spot that allows you to create a pool, and then shovel the material into buckets and carry them to the highbanker. Sometimes you can find a deposit that does allow you to create a pool in the deposit, so then booming is an option. The most important part to remember with whichever method you use is this, continually keep your hole small by filling it in as you progress in any direction. Back fill with cobbles, cover cobbles with tailings so as to leave the area with the same contour as when you started. If you don't, you will be in violation of the club rules; http://www.goldgold.com/surface-mining-guidelines.htm and I will promise that the club will be watching the claims closely this year, as is usual every year. All the club members need to help with this issue, so we can maintain the professional working relationships we have with regulatory agencies. Every time a member is caught operating outside of the club rules and gets caught, it hurts our cause. If you are not sure about something, ask before starting. Mark |
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ward35 Offline 103 posts Reply |
Thanks, Mark. Good explanation. I think i will stick with regular highbanking. If cleaning bedrock is the major advanatge I think a vac pac would solve that issue.
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UncleMark Offline 624 posts Reply |
No problem ward35, glad I could help.
I wouldn't exclude booming, as there are definitely some locations that it would be a much more efficient technique than shoveling. The secret is sample first, find a deposit that pays to your requirements, and use whatever mining technique that is the most productive and legal and within the club rules to recover the deposit, then go into a production mode and get the gold. Mark |
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InspectorTom Offline 422 posts  Reply |
What I have done recently, in a more centrally located part of the state (not a New 49er claim) is shovel off the layers of dirt that have "less pay" into the high-banker, then when the "better pay layers" are exposed, re-set my Hydraulic Elevator to "boom" it up...my 2 cents...
Tom |
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bearkat Offline 75 posts Reply |
So some say to BOOM or not to BOOM!!!.
I say BOOM! ...as per the SB 670 bill/law itself says...People say here in Happy Camp at K15A say not to boom or you will get in trouble. Well I'm Gonna boom just like the SB 670 declares. I dont know where calgolddredger is getting his info..maybe from local CDFG but the Bill says it all and CDFG response to Daves request for clairity also stipulates what we are allowed to do per SB 670. Quote from bill.... "SB 670, as amended, Wiggins. Vacuum or suction dredge equipment. Existing law prohibits the use of any vacuum or suction dredge equipment by any person in any river, stream, or lake of this state without a permit issued by the Department of Fish and Game. Under existing law, it is unlawful to possess a vacuum or suction dredge in areas, or in or within 100 yards of waters, that are closed to the use of vacuum or suction dredges." "This bill would designate the issuance of permits to operate vacuum or suction dredge equipment to be a project under CEQA, and would suspend the issuance of permits, and mining pursuant to a permit, until the department has completed an environmental impact report for the project as ordered by the court in a specified court action. The bill would prohibit the use of any vacuum or suction dredge equipment in any river, stream, or lake , for instream mining purposes, until the director of the department certifies to the Secretary of State that (1) the department has completed an the environmental review of its existing vacuum or suction dredge equipment regulations as ordered by the court." Full bill here... http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_0651-0700/sb_670_bill_20090626_amended_asm_v97.html This is what Mark has been saying here, he is right on, now we must just take a copy of this while mining/booming and show them the Bill/law if confronted. And take a copy of CDFG response to Dave with you also saying booming is ok. Here is a copy of this letter...print it and have with you while you BOOM! http://www.goldgold.com/legal/CDFG_Ltr_12-10-09.pdf Alan
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bearkat Offline 75 posts Reply |
Well John since you cant answer that simple question I'll do it for you. Because the letter states what is allowed and not allowed concerning booming. You need to read the last sentence of the second to last paragraph. I'll keep it on me because we are under attack. I thought you knew that? Your response indicates your no help here.
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old_gold_miner Offline 103 posts Reply |
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:
SECTION 1. Section 5653.1 is added to the Fish and Game Code, to read: 5653.1. (a) The issuance of permits to operate vacuum or suction dredge equipment is a project pursuant to the California Environmental Quality Act (Division 13 (commencing with Section 21000) of the Public Resources Code) and permits may only be issued, and vacuum or suction dredge mining may only occur as authorized by any existing permit, if the department has caused to be prepared, and certified the completion of, an environmental impact report for the project pursuant to the court order and consent judgment entered in the case of Karuk Tribe of California et al. v. California Department of Fish and Game et al., Alameda County Superior Court Case No. RG 05211597. (b) Notwithstanding Section 5653, the use of any vacuum or suction dredge equipment in any river, stream, or lake of this state is prohibited until the director certifies to the Secretary of State that all of the following have occurred: (1) The department has completed the environmental review of its existing suction dredge mining regulations, as ordered by the court in the case of Karuk Tribe of California et al. v. California Department of Fish and Game et al., Alameda County Superior Court Case No. RG 05211597. (2) The department has transmitted for filing with the Secretary of State pursuant to Section 11343 of the Government Code, a certified copy of new regulations adopted, as necessary, pursuant to Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code. (3) The new regulations described in paragraph (2) are operative. (c) The Legislature finds and declares that this section, as added during the 2009-10 Regular Session, applies solely to vacuum and suction dredging activities conducted for instream mining purposes. This section does not expand or provide new authority for the department to close or regulate suction dredging conducted for regular maintenance of energy or water supply management infrastructure, flood control, or navigational purposes governed by other state or federal law. (d) This section does not prohibit or restrict nonmotorized recreational mining activities, including panning for gold. SEC. 2. This act is an urgency statute necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, or safety within the meaning of Article IV of the Constitution and shall go into immediate effect. The facts constituting the necessity are: The Legislature finds that suction or vacuum dredge mining results in various adverse environmental impacts to protected fish species, the water quality of this state, and the health of the people of this state, and, in order to protect the environment and the people of California pending the completion of a court-ordered environmental review by the Department of Fish and Game and the operation of new regulations, as necessary, it is necessary that this act take effect immediately. http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/billtrack/text.html?bvid=20090SB67095CHP |
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old_gold_miner Offline 103 posts Reply |
I’m just a bit curious where/how/why the tag ‘BOOMING” got applied to “HIGH BANKING”. This seems to be a very recent terminology. Which, I believe is incorrectly applied. Maybe I’m “old school”, but to me the term booming applies to ground sluicing, of the use of a dam to back water up, then release it to wash away overburden.
The other thing, SB 670 prohibits the use of a SUCTION DREDGE IN-STREAM. High banking is not IN-STREAM. Furthermore CDFG’s authority to regulate is limited to both IN-STREAM & SUCTION DREDGING. IN-STREAM means the ordinary high water line. If you are operating outside of that, you are NOT IN-STREAM. |
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UncleMark Offline 624 posts Reply |
I would like to clarify a little. First it is not a highbanker with a "dredge" attachment, it is a highbanker with a suction nozzle attached. It is not a suction dredge intended to be used for in-stream mining, it is a modified highbanker designed and intended to be used outside of the current active waterway. By legal definition in the California fish and game code, a suction dredge is a device intended to be used for in-stream mining, because a highbanker is not designed for in-stream mining, do not call it a dredge.
There is a need to describe suction highbanking, and I guess someone picked the term booming. Now SB-670 mentioned dredge equipment, but the actual fish and game code clearly states it is only illegal to have a "DREDGE", the regulation does not make it illegal to have suction equipment, or all equipment that operates by suction or vacuum, it specifically only lists a "dredge". Because SB-670 did not change this regulation but only mentioned it, then the current regulation only bans dredges within 100 yards of waters that are "closed", not suction equipment not intended to be used outside of the active water way. I think that legally, the precedence here is being missed. There are two types of mining that are at issue here. The first is placer mining within the current water level, which is called "in-stream" mining, and the other is mining outside of the current water level, which is called "out of stream" mining. |
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bearkat Offline 75 posts Reply |
I agree with you 100% Mark...
However the CDFG have a different view on this and they say NO suction equipment 100 yards from active waterway. The NFS doesnt care. CDFG territory is the water and the bank all the way up to whatever high water mark they like. I'm here iN Happy Camp now and I get both ends, but from the high ups...suction anything is a no-no now. I have been booming for 2 weeks now and had to go back to pick and shovel crap. I also called Keene to see what they had to say and they said no suction equipment of any kind 100 yards from active water way. Alan
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Jim_Alaska Offline 2085 posts Administrator  Reply |
OGM,
You are correct the term booming applies to ground sluicing, of the use of a dam to back water up, then release it to wash away overburden. The term is new as far as using it to designate mining with a dredge above the water line.
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Jim_Alaska Offline 2085 posts Administrator Reply |
We discussed this problem with Mark Stopher at CDFG during the comment meetings. A suction gredge is very narrowly defined. One of the components of a suction dredge is pontoons. If it does not have pontoons, it is not a suction dredge according to CDFG.
This does not mean that you may not be asked to stop, or even cited by a warden that doesn't know the exact definitions. The official you may be dealing with on the river has always been a problem from the standpoint that he/she makes the call on what the regs mean as he/she understands them. Don't make waves, be polite and use discretion, this will get youy further than a, "I am within my rights and know the law attitude."
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bearkat Offline 75 posts Reply |
Oh my God here we go again back to booming is ok now...geez. I Think Ill just start power sluicing instead with my suction nozzel.
Somebody get this xxxx right!
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