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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
Let's get one of Oregon's most admired dredging advocate to tell us what is going on and how we should react.
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ratled Offline 680 posts  Reply |
Rod for those of us not in the know, what is SB 765? I found several but none made sense to me to be posted here. Do you have a link?
Thanks ratled |
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
Sorry about that.
Oregon Senate Bill 765 Atkinson I'm fishing for ANY/EVERY Oregon resident dredger to explain why he doesn't want me to dredge in Oregon. I'm just experiencing some difficulty understanding why his peace, health and safety are being threatened by me. Here's the real deal- http://www.leg.state.or.us/11reg/measures/sb0700.dir/sb0765.intro.html |
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ratled Offline 680 posts Reply |
Thanks Rod. Dave has an Action Alert out on now too
ratled http://bb.bbboy.net/thenew49ers-viewthread?forum=2&thread=715 |
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Real49er Offline 249 posts Reply |
I can't claim to know for certain why such a bill would be introduced, but if I had to make a guess it would be that perhaps he is politically just an eco-syncophant in lockstep with the Green Gestapo! |
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
You're right Real49er, but I believe that's just the tip of the iceburg.
We continuously blame the tree huggers and the bug counters and rightly so. However- Be It Enacted by the People of the State of Oregon: SECTION 1. { + As used in sections 1 to 3 of this 2011 Act: (1) 'Nonresident' means a person who is not a resident; That describes me. What's the problem? This sb 765 is specifically segregating me apart from my Oregon friends, family and buddies. Privately over the phone I have gotten numerous versions of why Oregon dredgers as a whole don't want me dredging up their "precious". Publicly on this forum however not one of them can crawl out from under their disgrace and shame to reveal their feelings. If they refuse to talk about it, we will never be able to control the Atkinsons of our world. Oregon dredgers silence is not golden. |
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jim2224 Offline 7 posts Reply |
Didn't you ever hear of devide and conquer ? As soon as they get rid of us they will turn on there own residents!
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markB Offline 210 posts Reply |
I'm just going to conduct my posts in a polite and civil way, hoping that the representatives of the State of Oregon may well be interested in pervaying this site to find that as a whole we are just good people striving to get ahead and make ends meet. And lash out when I feel injustice towards me. Can be a tough balancing act.
I don't think I've experianced any hostility from the people, miners or not, that I've met in Oregon. |
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RUSTY_HAPPY_CAM Offline 684 posts Reply |
If you want to experience first hand how the Oregon miners feel you should attend the SWOMA meetings. I have never met a nicer more dedicated group of miners anywhere. Every miner is welcomed as a brother and it doesn't matter what side of the line you come from. You can get full details here. http://www.miningrights.org/meetings.html I attend when I can but with fuel costs the 300 mile round trip keeps me from getting there every meeting. I have been a member of most every mining group I could find and without a doubt this group is the best of the best.
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
Yes Rusty you are correct. I agree with every word. I can't jump in the old chevy pickup and drive that far either. This forum is fast and free.
I'm calling out the SWOMA leadership for that reason. Time is short, we need to be enlightened as to what deals if any, have been made behind closed doors with Senator Atkinson and his SB 765. I'm feeling betrayed. |
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chickenlip_willie Offline 763 posts Reply |
Rod Seiad
What deals behind closed doors about SB 765 are you referring to ? Do you think there is some hanky panky going on ? Please explain ..... Jim |
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
Jim,
I've stated my reasons clearly, maybe rereading this thread from the top could help you. |
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chickenlip_willie Offline 763 posts Reply |
Rod,
I have been following this thread from the beginning, from top to bottom. I live here in S. Oregon and know a lot of the local dredgers. All of them that I have spoken with are outraged at this SB 765, Atkinson. You started this thread off with "Meg where's Tom and his opinion of SB 765 ????, then you elude to deals behind closed doors ? Are you suggesting Tom has made deals ? If so, I want to know, this is my back yard, and if you have anything with facts, we need to know so it can be dealt with. ..... Jim |
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
Now we're making progress, thanks Jim.
I will not slander anybody's name. If I had complete disclosure I would level my cannon and fire. I'm happy to hear that you are outraged at sb765 and I'm happy you know good people in Oregon who are also outraged. We all agree. I want whomever turncoated against dredgers to come out with the story. I have only rumors and accusations to work with so far, but I'm still digging. I'm on the phone, multiple forums and doing what I can to flush out the Atkinson confidant(s). I'm on record on this forum, different thread, stating the fact I phoned 4 buddies in the Oregon dredging community and asked each "What is this SB765 and can you tell me anything about it?" They were also outraged but, I was surprised how I was cursed at and identified as the cause of sb765. That is to say "I and all the other Californians had better stay out of Oregon's gold." Atkinson is sucking up the negative energy and running for the goal line. Would you prefer that I ignored the entire problem and said nothing? Do you have some inside information? You're an Oregon dredger, did you have prior knowledge about sb765 before I did? Names were said to me, not your's, who are known to all of us. Plus there was a rumor floating about in your neighborhood that this was coming. I hate politics and lawmakers. I always question authority. I want to be at peace with all men. This unnecessary BS is mind numbing. |
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chickenlip_willie Offline 763 posts Reply |
Rod,
I found out about this by reading it on the forum, then drove over to Allan's to talk it over with him when it all came out to the public. I did not hear any roomers that it was coming, you might go to www.oregongoldhunters.com and read the reaction, those miners are very angery and are local born and raised. Last year a few weeks after they breached Gold Ray Dam I was down at the boat landing. I encountered two local dredgers that were pulling there dredge out. Two years ago they were the only dredges in that area of the Rouge and they were mad and putting blame on the people coming in from California. They said that the Califorian's were not respecting the residents living along the river. They said that they had the whole river to themselves before the people started coming in from California. Those are the only two that I heard any negitive feedback from. There is one thing that people need to understand about some of the old time local born and raised Oregon residents. Some of them are very "clannish", the timber industry was the main source of income intill the "Spoted owl", and the bleeding heart liberal green environmentalists took over. People came in here from California and other states and bought up property at a hight price, a lot of the locals could not affort to own property. I experenced rejection when I told them that I was from California, was treated like I had the bubonic plague. Its not as bad as it was 25 yrs. ago, but it is still here with some hard core old timers. I hope this has answered some of your questions. I dought if you will find out who the turncoats are Rod. Most people that do that are cowards. ..... Jim  |
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notsowise Offline 13 posts Reply |
Rod,
I am confused at your response over us getting the word out about SB 765? I am a resident of Oregon and a miner so I will tell you what I know. The first we heard that Atkinson had a problem with suction dredge miners was when he ran into a miner last summer legally working hard in the spot senator Atkinson wanted to fish with a friend of his. He harassed the poor dredger and demanded to see his permit. This was showed to him. Atkinson said that the dredger was from out of state. Senator Atkinson then wrote an article that was published in a local paper talking about how enraged he was at all the dredger’s coming in from California and telling them to go home that they weren’t wanted here and Oregon should ban suction dredging like California did. That was a big tantrum by one of our public officials because he couldn’t play where he wanted to. Many Oregon miners called him out on it and until two weeks ago he was telling us he was on our side but still didn’t want out-of-stater’s mining here. By the way Senator Atkinson is a California transplanted. He told us he wasn’t planning on doing anything. Then one of the miners noticed he had a bill before the senate. Calling them on it we found out it was already before the Judiciary Committee. Today I got a reply from Atkiinsons office that says they are still just researching what they intent to do. My question is if you haven’t decided what to do why is there already a bill going through the process. All those that think we are holding out on you Californian miners rest assured we did not do any such thing. As soon as we knew about it we started getting the word out far and near. My fellow miners have sent Action Alerts out all across the US and Canada. We are already in court with DEQ and trying to work that out then this. It never ends and we have a large group of miners from Oregon, Washington and California working on Oregon mining issues daily. Many of us are also helping on California issues also. Keep your head up we are not forgetting you. Claudia Wise |
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Rod_Seiad Offline 629 posts Reply |
Jim, Claudia,
THANK YOU!!!! xoxoxoxo Jim I was working in the woods as a timber faller when the owl was spotted. That was how I put food on the table for my wife and children. What a grand, completely satisfying life style we lived. I cut logs in Northern CA and Southern OR. Now that I'm retired I am enjoying gold dredging. My wife enjoys doing the cleanups and helping me spend the proceeds. Last summer's gold take was good enough to cover all expenses and bring home to Shasta County enough to pay our ridiculous property taxes. Claudia I hope you assume a leadership position somewhere in our troubled society, you seem to have a life saving attitude. Confused over sb765? That about sums it up for me too. Life goes on. |
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notsowise Offline 13 posts Reply |
I appreciate your comments Rod. We will get out of this together... all of us miners. They will try to divide us it's their way but we will pull back together and in the end I know we will be the victors.
I also had a different life, you probably know that I was an EPA scientist. We got all the cutting edge instrumentation. I do miss those toys the most. About the mid 90's I started seeing that little of the research we did made any sense. Not because we didn't do a great job we did but once it got to the top the information wasn't recognizable any longer. At EPA headquarters politics are in full swing. That realization seeped into my career slowly but once there I could not let it go. I made a dam good living there though. During that time I also developed an allergy to the samples we most commonly used, Douglas fir. Sucks! I grew up in the Oregon cascade mountains and as a kid I spent my time running and hunting those Douglas fir covered mountains. By 2006 it turned into asthma. I paid into federal workers comp for 32 years no problem they will take care of me and my family but when I started having asthma attacks on the job and could no longer work there they denied my benefits and since I could no longer work at my station they made me sign a letter they wrote saying I was leaving for personal reasons and cut me. Yes, I can't cry much about it I do get an early retirement benefit for signing the letter... 40% of what I was making and many Americans don't get that. Guess what I feel more whole helping the miners out than I ever did working at EPA so it's OK now. It took the last 5 years to realize that. Like you Rod I found something I loved also mining that's why I know we will all be OK as long as we stick together. Claudia |
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beammaker Offline 182 posts Reply |
Claudia:
You are a much needed source, for information, to the gold community on the--government ways--of the systematic destruction being shoved on the United States of America's productive citizens. By this I mean the EPA, US Forest Service, etc---etc. I welcome you to the common sense peoples fight to right this great republic, and to get the country back on the correct path to the strength, positivity, and superior ways we all know are inside---just waiting to come out again. Please expand your efforts openly and get involved deeply. The EPA politicians can not harm you any more than they already have, so aid us in our struggles to bring this B>S> to the proper conclusions. Show us that you are not one of the environmentalists we despise. Just my scientist thoughts---------Beammaker |
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notsowise Offline 13 posts Reply |
Hi Beammaker,
I have been doing what I can do for the mining community since 2005 before I retired. I do what I can do...I have been apart of giving declarations supporting good science for both the New 49ers and PLP, which so far has benefited suction dredge mining. I am an invited scientist on the CDFG Public Advisory Committee regarding the Environmental Impact Report. I am vice president of Millennium Digger gold and treasure club in Oregon and part of a group of Oregon mining leaders that represent many of Oregon's mining organizations keeping track of mining issues as they arise. Not trying to toot my own horn just saying I am involved and think we all have to do everything in our power just to stay ahead of all that is coming at us. I like many am getting weary and would just like to be in a dredge hole working all day. |
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JCRB Offline 15 posts Reply |
Meet Senator Atkinson...Listen to his TV rant.
http://localnewscomesfirst.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=431&task=videodirectlink&id=5836 |
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JCRB Offline 15 posts Reply |
My rebuttal comments are at the end of Atkinson's article......................................
The message Oregon should be sending dredge miners: leave http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/08/the_message_oregon_should_be_s.html Published: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 9:00 AM By Jason Atkinson Last year, California ended the practice of dredge mining in its rivers. With the ban in effect, out-of-state miners have flooded into southern Oregon rivers armed with $25 permits issued by the state. I've a long history with "The New 49'ers," the miners association that organizes equipment and permits for dredge miners. I've seen what its members have done to some of the great rivers in the West. Dredge miners dump all the material they remove from a river bottom downstream, changing the entire structure and hydraulics of streams and their fish habitat. They squat on public land, not in campgrounds. They live next to their rigs the entire season. The responsibility to make them move on falls on local law enforcement. As someone who has represented two large southern Oregon counties for more than a decade of meager public safety funding, I'll tell you that our sheriff's officers don't need this chore. Dredge mining was an issue when I was first elected to Oregon's House of Representatives in 1999. While I didn't have the ability at the time to stop the practice, I worked to ensure that the diameter of the vacuum pipes that miners use were limited, that dredge material was placed upstream instead of downstream, and that miners must fill the holes they create in stream bottoms. As I did then, I still support Oregonians pursuing recreational gold panning, but I didn't want out-of-state commercial permits allowed in Oregon. That hasn't been an issue for years, but with the new California ban in effect, miners from across the United States are rushing into southern Oregon. If you believe in protecting Oregon's rivers, you too should be outraged. If you're a taxpayer and believe in private property rights, you should be outraged. If you're a farmer who manages your land, you should agree this is wrong. No Oregonian has the right to go to Texas, Indiana or North Carolina (just a few of the state license plates I saw on miners' vehicles on the Rogue River) and dredge-mine their rivers' spawning grounds. So why are we providing that ability here in Oregon? I'm an unashamed, passionate steelheader, and I'm raising the fifth-generation Atkinson fly-flinger. Two weeks ago my 7-year-old and I caught trout and released them by a sandy bar next to our favorite run on the Applegate River. Days later, that same sandy bar had an out-of-state dredge miner on it when I arrived with Oregon Labor Commissioner Brad Avakian. Twenty-five bucks gave him the "right" to camp for months on public ground, set up a modern mine, transfer gasoline from the bank to his rig on the water, and destroy what the local community -- from both agriculture and conservation interests -- agreed was worth protecting. I asked to see the miner's permit and talked to him about his intentions. It was simple: He was going to use larger-diameter vacuum hoses, move material downstream and suck the riverbed dry of gold. Then he planned to move on to the next river. I asked: "Did the state agencies who gave you the permits tell you how long you could camp here and what the Oregon restrictions are regarding sensitive fish habitat?" The answer: "No." Private property advocates, taxpayer groups and the environmental community all have a reason to work together to stop this practice. Rafters, fishermen and Oregon's river boating industry should join in. In Oregon, we're proud of our rivers and have worked together for years to protect them, and we shouldn't allow this dredge mining. Let me be less diplomatic than former Gov. Tom McCall when it comes to out-of-state dredge miners: Welcome to Oregon; now leave. Jason Atkinson, a Republican, represents Central Point in the Oregon Senate. MY COMMENTS ON THIS ARTICLE August 27, 2010 at 10:41AM I have done my homework and the effects of small scale gold suction dredging are less-than-significant. What the miners have stated here is accurate so there is no need for me to repeat it. Senator Atkinson is totally wrong and he will find no scientific data to support his position. Emotion and hysteria have no place in this discussion because the root of this issue is based on a threat to deny citizens their right to mine on public domain lands. There is no scientific evidence that small scale suction dredging harms fish if performed following the State’s designated in-water work periods. On the other hand, there is published scientific data showing that fishermen kill thousands of fish eggs and fry by wading through the streams and fish redds while fishing during spawning season. I thought it interesting that some suggest increasing mining permit fees to $500 or requiring that a bond be posted. This makes no sense -except for the authors misunderstanding of the effects of dredging- because the science clearly demonstrates that the effects are local and temporary. So what about those fees. I suggest a reasonable fee for small scale suction dredging should be the same as the State requires for a fishing license. As an invited member to the California Department of Fish and Game Public Advisory committee on suction dredging, I am an Oregon resident, I have seen some data that some of you might not. The following is some of that data regarding economics of small scale suction dredging. I have taken the information from a survey of economic damage caused to the mining Community in California and recalculated the data to reflect removing the 1200 miners, that would be 1115 Oregon miners and 85 California miners, that have purchased permits from Oregon waters. 1200 suction dredge permit holders would spend approximately $10,760,400 for groceries, restaurants, camp fees and other living expenses; 1200 suction dredge permit holders would spend approximately $5,164,800 on gas, oil, equipment maintenance and repairs; 1200 suction dredge permit holders would spend approximately $2,582,400 on suction dredge and related equipment every 4-years; and, The State of Oregon collected $30,000 in dredge permit fees. These activities represent approximately $18,537,600 lost to the Oregon economy if Senator Atkinson is able to pass his plan through the Oregon State Legislature. These calculations are based on information collected in California for the year 2008. |
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JCRB Offline 15 posts Reply |
I was already responding to my Oregon State Senators but it was too early. No actions had been taken. But now you can read the actual basis of what happened. No more rumors.
Declaring war on dredging State lawmaker Jason Atkinson wants to outlaw suction dredging on Oregon rivers http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100820/NEWS/8200331 August 20, 2010 By Chris Conrad Mail Tribune, Southern Oregon’s News Source Within minutes of arriving at the Rogue River on Thursday, state Sen. Jason Atkinson was already drafting legislation in his head after spotting a line of suction dredge miners with out-of-state license plates scouring the bottom of the river for gold. Atkinson, R-Central Point, is drawing up plans to ban suction dredge mining in Oregon. "I have a history with these fellas," Atkinson said. "I've seen what they do to rivers in California and it's not going to happen in Oregon." There has been a bump in suction dredge mining in Southern Oregon since California banned the practice a year ago. The Oregon Department of Environmental Quality issued 1,205 dredging permits this year, a 30 percent increase from last year. Permit holders who list California as their address jumped from 51 last year to 85 this year, a 67 percent increase, The Associated Press reported. Atkinson intends his new law to mirror the California moratorium. He also wants the DEQ to take a serious look at the environmental impact suction dredge mining has on Oregon's rivers and streams. "I am very angry with the DEQ for giving so many permits to miners from out of this state," he said. On Thursday afternoon, there were about a dozen dredge operations running along the river just downstream from the ruins of Gold Ray Dam. Dredge mining involves sucking silt and rock from the river bottom into a strainer that collects gold. Mining has been increasingly popular over the past few years because the price of gold has risen steadily during the recession. Gold rose to $1,235 per ounce Thursday, a seven-week high. Keith Lemons, who lives near the Rogue River, said a bigger group of dredge miners has descended on the river in recent weeks. "I've spoken to people who said they've seen 30 of them out here at a time," Lemons said. Christopher Lowrance of Arizona was among the gold-seeking hopefuls who placed a dredging machine along the river bank. Lowrance has camped along the river for two months and said he used to reap $48 in gold per hour before the destruction of Gold Ray Dam. "The dam going out hurt us," he said. "It makes it harder to see and increases the danger because you don't know if rocks or logs are coming down the river." One miner was struggling in the river on Thursday after a log cruised by and snagged his boat attached to his dredger. Lowrance said he would be in California right now if the state would reopen its river to dredge miners. "The Klamath River is a great place to dredge," he said. "There's lots of gold down there. There's lots of gold here too, but it's harder to find." Numerous studies have determined that suction dredging harms fish by stirring up silt on the river bottom. The dredges also can suck up fish eggs as they pass over the river bed. Lowrance argues that suction mining can help fish by kicking up fresh food for them and digging holes in the river that they can use for spawning beds. "We also collect all the lead weights and lead bullets we find in the water," he said. "We have found mercury in the rivers and we collect that, too." Lowrance worked with a crew of five miners, two of whom made the trip from North Carolina in the hopes of striking gold in the Rogue River. But if Atkinson gets his way in the Legislature in the coming session, this will be the last season Lowrance and his crew will dredge Oregon rivers. "This will not stand," Atkinson said. Reach reporter Chris Conrad at 541-776-4471; or e-mail him at cconrad@mailtribune.com. |
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JCRB Offline 15 posts Reply |
My comments ran about 8-pages with pictures. Much too long for this. But, I thought you might learn from some of the points I included.
I know that Senator Atkinson submitted SB 765 because he chooses to believe that suction dredgers kill fish and harms the environment. In an article about his anger with suction dredgers in Oregon waters the author stated, “Numerous studies have determined that suction dredging harms fish by stirring up silt on the river bottom. The dredges also can suck up fish eggs as they pass over the river bed”. This statement is totally false. I have shown this by my previous review of the scientific literature. However, and unfortunately, it is consistent with the lies that are being forced upon the electorate by incompetent journalists. Furthermore I do not believe it is incumbent on our State legislators to support the misplaced anger of one of their own. Senator Atkinson stated, “I'm an unashamed, passionate steelheader, and I'm raising the fifth-generation Atkinson fly-flinger Two weeks ago my 7-year-old and I caught trout and released them by a sandy bar next to our favorite run on the Applegate River. Days later, that same sandy bar had an out-of-state dredge miner on it when I arrived with Oregon Labor Commissioner Brad Avakian.” Senator Atkinson checked with the miner and his operation was legal under Oregon State law. I would like to point out to all of you that fishermen, Like Senator Atkinson, kill fish where small-scale suction dredge miners do not. This form of mining occurs for only about 3-months a year. The Oregon Department of Fish and Game provides in-water-work periods. These are timed so that no spawning fish or fish redds will remain in the areas where suction dredge mining occurs. On the other side of the coins, A study done in Montana (published 1993 edition of Trout Unlimited) on the effects of wading around on trout spawning nests, indicated that just one step on a nest of eggs could immediately cause up to 47% mortality on the eggs. As the eggs that were smashed decay, the spores from the decaying eggs colonize on the good eggs and kill them as well. This is like having a rotten apple in the barrel where eventually all of the apples in the barrel will also rot. Both jet and propeller powered boats are capable of and do destroy incubating salmon redds. When a redd is destroyed in such a manner the evidence of a destroyed nest disappears as the trout eat the eggs that are blown from an egg nest by the force generated by jet and propeller driven boats. Additionally, fishermen who drag their anchor at times to slow a drifting boat will destroy any egg nest the anchor is dragged through. Studies on some rivers in Western Washington have indicated a mortality rate of 97% on eggs and fry. Until such in-stream activities are regulated during periods of egg incubation, the salmon resource will continue to decline. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on attempts to restore salmon runs. Nothing has been done to regulate such fish destroying activities that continue unabated. It doesn't cost anything to not do things that destroy salmon redds. If the Senator is looking to fix something I think he might direct his ire towards his favorite past time. I would also like to mention that there is credible scientific evidence that demonstrates that the reduced numbers of salmon returning to West Coast streams and rivers is the direct result of ocean temperatures. The reduced numbers is not caused by over fishing, in stream mining, or dams. I will not elaborate on this subject here but if anyone is interested I can direct them to online sites that contain information supporting these statements. |
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JCRB Offline 15 posts Reply |
I found it interesting that someone would suggest increasing the out of State mining permit fees (tax) to $2,500 per county and instituting Oregon resident fees of $50 per County. This makes no sense (except for the authors misunderstanding of the effects of dredging) because the science clearly demonstrates that the effects are local and temporary. So what about those fees? I suggest a reasonable fee for small scale suction dredging should be the same as the State requires for a fishing license. If you feel that it is unreasonable to demand that Oregon hunters and fishermen to pay $2,500 for their license and also pay an additional $50 for each county they would choose to hunt or fish in then you should recognize that it is also an unreasonable tax to place on small-scale suction gold dredge miners.
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brettl Offline 102 posts Reply |
I am amazed that Oregon with budget issues as bad as the rest of the country, has the money to write and enforce legislation against 81 "foreigners". Atkinson is wasting your tax dollars.
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