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colo_nuggets
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New 49ers Lawsuit ( 21:48:51 SunOct 11 2009 )

So when is the 49ers filing their Federal lawsuit?

  
Dave_Mack
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 03:22:15 MonOct 12 2009 )

I've been waiting for this question. Thanks for asking it.

The truth is that the response to my several recent requests for financial assistance has been so poor, that I don't have any confidence at the moment that we can pay for the project.

Our attorney is like a race horse at the starting gate; all jacked up ready for a good race. I've had to chain the door closed with double locks to keep him from getting started. I had to tie him down to keep him from jumping the gate!

The problem is that I personally have to pay the legal bills if enough help does not come in from our supporters (you guys). I'm not going to tell you how much I put out to pay for the last battle. It was a lot! And it was a good lesson to me; that when it comes down to the end, I am going to be the guy standing there with all the bills.

It's not that I mind paying more than my fare share. It's not that I don't mind taking risks. But what happens when I am standing at the end of the race and can't pay the bills?

This federal action could put me there in a matter of weeks or months!

I don't want to go there (again)!

As I have said many times in the past, I am uncomfortable asking for money in the first place. Especially when the initial response is discouraging.

I'd rather be shoveling out the horse pen, than asking you guys to send in some help so we can feed the stallion!

The first push was to get a read from you guys how much interest there is in making the big argument on behalf of all small-scale miners, in front of a federal judge. By "interest," I mean are there enough supporters out there willing to help me pay for it.

The read I got was that there is not very much interest. That's something important to know...

If some of you guys have a new idea how to create interest, I am wide open for suggestions.

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 08:26:37 MonOct 12 2009 )

I had one early on to dredge for gold to pay for the legal fund that one is done for now. What about a high banking type fundraiser, a lot more people could high bank than dredge, might work.

  
scothman
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 16:43:36 MonOct 12 2009 )

I don't think there is a lack of interest in helping anyone but a lack of funds in the homes of the miners so they can do so.

  
Dave_Mack
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 01:15:08 TueOct 13 2009 )

This occured to me, as well.

  
ward35
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 02:43:47 TueOct 13 2009 )

Dave, would the proposed federal lawsuit allow for $$$ damages so the club could recoup any money for the legal fees & etc. It might be best to wait and see the plp legal arguments and how their lawsuit proceeds before the club enters the federal battle. as for raising more money would it be possible for the club to have a temporary hike of the maintenance dues or add a special fee for legal stuff spread out over the entire membership to cover the legal costs, maybe offer the idea in the news letter and see what the response is.

  
LuvNuggets
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 06:42:17 TueOct 13 2009 )

This goes back to a suggestion I made earlier when we were on the positive wave of winning that the losing side reimburse the costs.

Not only does this give pause for the other side to think it gave our "piggy bank" some stability.

Another opportunity we don't have is Association meetings or maximizing the "raffle" abilities at the GPAA Gold shows.
[1 edits; Last edit by LuvNuggets at 06:43:11 Tue Oct 13 2009]

  
johntf
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 12:57:46 TueOct 13 2009 )

I get very little work these days , but just got a couple weeks of work , I was planing on putting $20 in ea. of the donation labels on the top of page , a total of $40 .
At this point would it best be put into just the legal fund ?
Not sure when I can do more , with winter coming , the added cost of heating , and not getting south for the winter .

  
boolits
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 16:45:38 TueOct 13 2009 )

While I'm fairly new as a member, I try to keep up with the news from our club and visit this site almost ever day. I may have missed something here and will ask a question that may be answered quickly. On September 3rd Jim Alaska presented a very nice list of donated items to be auctioned for our leagal expenses. I do have a dog in the fight as my wife has donated some art work. My question is - how are these items put on the block. It seems to me that the time has come to get these auctioned off and get those funds in the bank. Is it a timing thing where several items are listed together or?? Please let me/us know. Thanks

  
chickenlip_willie
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 17:11:09 TueOct 13 2009 )

boolits: The list of prizes that you are refeering to are part of a drawing that has been created to raise Legal Funds for our New 49ers. Legal Defense Fund.

These iteams will not be auctioned off, they are prizes that are being offered in the drawing that will be held in early Jan. 2010. It is all explained at the bottom of that Blowout Drawing page you are refeering to. ..... Jim ..:doublethumbsup:

  
boolits
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 20:12:29 TueOct 13 2009 )

CW: Thanks again for setting me straight. I needed to read the whole thing. I guess I'm feeling a little helpless right now-being on a retirement income and not contributing as much as I would like. Seems we are at a cross roads with our rights, freedoms and way of life that we have taken for granted being put on the choping block. We were struck with the fever in our late '50's and I just don't won't it to dissapear.

  
bearkat
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 01:15:59 WedOct 14 2009 )

As for myself I'm waiting to see how the PLP lawsuit goes and that is where my donations go right now. If the New 49er's gets in on a lawsuit also then I will donate there also. I think maybe others here are waiting also on PLP results?

Dont get too discouraged Dave on response to Federal lawsuit from 49er's members. I'll be there when needed, as many I believe also will be.

Does your lawyer know mining law well? If so, why didnt he confront California with the LAW before it got out of hand? Or did he and they didnt care?



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Jim_Alaska
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 01:57:52 WedOct 14 2009 )

bearcat, I'm not Dave of course, but do have knowledge of the state being notified in the form of letters sent to them by many, including myself and Siskiyou County confronting them with the law, especially The Mineral Estate grant of 1866.

So the answer is, they didn't care. They know they have deeper pockets than the miners and can afford to let it go to court, or count on the miners just dropping any opposition.



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Jim (Alaska)
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colo_nuggets
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 02:10:11 WedOct 14 2009 )

This has been a tough call for me as to where to send donations for a fight at the Federal level. I have been on the side lines waiting to see who was going to file what. That might be what others are doing. I have a concern that with only x numbers of miners out there, money for a fight could get spread to thin. Then we wouldn't have the strength in legal funds to see it through.

Its time to unite the clans everybody join together and PUSH!! This is hard to write. PLP has a lawsuit going are the 49ers ready to join in on one strong suit instead of trying for 2 weak ones.

Im gonna here it on this but I can take it. Scott

  
Dick_B
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 02:16:20 WedOct 14 2009 )

Hi Dave,

As you know I send in probably more than my fair share, but I still think the club needs to raise the dues on everyone - call it a temporary increase specifically for the legal fund. If members don't want to pay an extra $10 or $15 bucks a year in order to save dredging on the claims they probably are not worth keeping as members. As you know I gave my full membership to my son because I now live in Florida and can only dream of getting back to Happy Camp, but I still maintain an affiliate membership just to support the club and if you raise the affiliate to $60 or $70 I'll still pay it gladly especially if part of it goes to the legal fund.

Without dredging the club may go down the tubes - if the members want to keep the club going they should be willing to cough up a few bucks, and if they don't too bad - more space on the river for the rest of the members. And highbankers should not feel comfortable because they will be next & then mac vackers and finally maybe even panning unless you bring a tub to pan in so you are not putting anything in their pristine river or any footprints on the bank.

Just venting - but you should not have to keep asking for funds, and those people that always donate should not have to keep doing it for the good of members who don't.

Semper Fi

Dick Bendtzen


  
chickenlip_willie
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 02:52:28 WedOct 14 2009 )

I think what everybody needs to remember is the New 49ers. still has a legal bill to pay for, from fighting SB670. Raising funds to do this is like pulling teeth.

I made the decision early on, to donate what funds I have to both the 49ers. and, half to PLP.

I don't agree with the idea that raising the dues is the answer. Everyone has to decide how far they are willing to support this fight, then make whatever sacrifice that they feel is necessary. I personally have made the decision to sacrifice a few personal needs and wants in order to donate to our Legal Defense Fund and help pay these bills. Everyone else needs to do the same,we have only lost (one) battle, and the war is not over yet !! ..... Jim Yerby :doublethumbsup::doublethumbsup:

[1 edits; Last edit by chickenlip_willie at 03:22:44 Thu Oct 15 2009]

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 17:19:48 ThuOct 15 2009 )

Welllllll..... If the lawyers are that expensive, and the miners all over have been paying in time after time to the lawyers, seems like the lawyers are making out pretty well. Maybe its time they did us some pro-bono work hmmmmm... I think so. What do you think?.

  
Jim_Alaska
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 20:58:52 ThuOct 15 2009 )

Colo,

Our lawyers are the best there is at this type of litigation. Search around and you will find that there are just about none that know mining and our particular issues.

Dave's philosophy is that when we get into a fight, like the ones we have been in, you don't use halfway measures, you hire the best. We can't afford to lose.

Not many attoerneys will go pro bono and if they do they are not the best. They usually reserve pro bono for people who have been wronged, have no money and the case is a no brainer, and they are sure to win. These cases are much more involved and complicated that that.

They have done us a good job and we have won using them. There are simply no alternatives to good legal representation.

By way of information, they do not charge for every phone call, or minute they spend. I have testified at legislative and agency hearings right beside our lead attorney and he was there on his own nickle, like I was. He had to travel from Portland to Sacramento to do it too.



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Jim (Alaska)
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colo_nuggets
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 00:17:54 FriOct 16 2009 )

This lawsuit crap is getting on my nerves! I think all politicians should have to wear bozo the clown red headed wigs and stand in the middle of the highway every Monday. That way, on the way to the job you don't have, you could hang your arm out the window going 75mph and smack the crap out of them for the job they have and aren't doing!!

  
johntf
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 13:02:56 FriOct 16 2009 )

I have been too far away from mining area [ used to live in Cal. ] about 17 yrs. ago , would like to get back to mining / dredging , but lack of work keeps me from putting together a grubstake to make it back out there .
Now I have had for the 1st time in a 1 1/2 + yrs. , work for a couple weeks that is more than 25 hrs. a week , am want to send a little to the cause , but can not afford to send some to every thing [ both donations here , top of page ] and several other groups [ GPAA , PLP , ect. ] , so looking to see where the best place for maybe $50 bucks , not a lot , and with the economy the way it is , I suspect there are more than a few looking to put what they can afford to best use ?










4:shrug:

  
joeandlisa
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 14:45:45 SunOct 18 2009 )

Dave, I'm asking you to reconsider.When you say that our attorneys are chomping at the bit,this probably means they know we have a real STRONG CASE,am I right? This,because of the circumstances and actions of the CA legislature among others,is probably the best opportunity we have had, or ever will have,to end this once and for all in our favor.I for one don't think we can just sit on the sidelines and hope that we are treated fairly and honestly in this CEQA process.And already Oregon is moving to follow Californias lead and Dump on us.Where would all that leave us??? NOWHERE.You should not have to bear more than your'e share of the financial burden,but I know you do.There must be some financial solution we can come up with.I think some members over the years have gotten a bit of burnout,then on top of that you enter a bad economy. Some always give more than their share,some give what they can,others don't ever support us, and take a free ride on the rest of our coattails. I agree with DICK B ,instead of asking for legal fund donations all the time,make it a part of goodstanding membership every year just like the dues.Forego the new claims every year,hell,we need to use all our resources to keep the ones we have! If all members paid 50 or 100 to the legal fund wouldn't this go along way? There are alot who will say they can't afford it,well I'm not working and I can't afford it either,but come hell or high water I would find a way to come up with it! Members also need to realize that their membership is also an investment,something that not only gives them certain rights,priveleges and opportunitys,but a tangible asset that they can trade or sell.Paying 100 bucks to bolster your asset and keep it from going down the toilet is just good common sense. The law is on our side,what is right and fair is on our side, and the people who are trying to trample on us and our rights are as usual underestimating our determination and our resourcefullness. Thanks for listening... Joe L. joeandlisa



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new49er#1243 lrobinson435@msn.com
 
 
Au_Seeker
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 15:30:11 SunOct 18 2009 )

Dave,

I have a little to input here, I'm not a member of The New49ers', only because I live in South Carolina, and I work and live paycheck to paycheck, so making it out to California is not in the immediate future, but I've have donated to your cause directly to the New49ers' and to the PLP, and I will continue to do so when I can.

That being said, what I would like to input here is this, Jim Alaska has posted this, here on this forum and on the Alaska Gold forum...."Taxes fund environmental suits"..

http://bb.bbboy.net/thenew49ers-viewthread?forum=1&thread=170

http://bb.bbboy.net/alaskagoldforum-viewthread?forum=2&thread=391

In this thread it is stated that the environmentalists are getting their "legal fees/lawyer's fees" paid by the government when they win cases that has violated their "rights", this is the case with SB670, our rights to mine are being violated, you have stated that your lawyers are "chomping at the bit" to get under way with this law suit, so as mentioned by Joe L. in the above post they must be confident in this law suit.

On the Alaska Gold forum in Jim's post linked above is a reply by "Zooka", whom most will know is a long time prospector and also a Texas lawyer he stated...

Quote:

"Federal law says that if you bring a suit against the government for violating your constitutional rights, and you win any part of it, they pay for your attorneys. It is the foundation of most of the civil rights and environmental rights lawsuits since 1964 or so.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html
I know of one lawyer who completely changed voting rights laws in the US by filing a lawsuit in East Texas - in a friendly court in other words, hand picked judge - and the day before they filed he realized he didnt have a plaintiff in Tyler, texas, so he called a law school friend there who gave him the name of his white secretary to put down as plaintiff, even though it was a suit about alleged wrongs against blacks.
This attorney had one of the nicest houses and many acres of prime land in Austin, from that an many other such suits.

It is an old, old game by now. We need to start learning how to play it ourselves. Just saying "42 United States Code section 1983" is powerful words to attorneys in the know, by the way. Big juju.

-Z "

I think you should mention this possibility of regaining the legal fees through the "42 United States Code section 1983" to your lawyers and see what they think, I'm not sure but you maybe able to regain some of the past legal fees as well!!

Right now with cash being as tight as it is this is the only help I can offer at this time, but I will donate as my finances allow.

If I lived closer or in California, I would join the New49ers', and as mentioned in some of the above posts I would not object to an increase to the yearly "maintenance fees" for a legal fund.

I hope you will pursue this option with your lawyers as it would go a very long way in defending the rights of miners, I'm going to also going suggest this to Jerry of the PLP, we should be fighting with the same tactics that the environmentalists use to be able to win IMHO!!


Thanks,
Skip


[1 edits; Last edit by Au_Seeker at 15:31:41 Sun Oct 18 2009]

  
UncleMark
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 19:34:08 SunOct 18 2009 )

I disagree with the thought of raising membership fees to help pay for the legal bills. The amount it would take to make a significant dent in the legal bills would be a lot more money than the ten to twenty dollars that has been mentioned.
We are in a bad economy, and the last thing we need is to chase off members who support our cause that can barely afford to get by right now by raising membership fees, or by making statements that people who do not have the ability to financially support this effort are not worthy of being club members.
There is a lot at stake here, and the costs of a federal lawsuit will be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Just because the legal fees would be paid if we won our case, in no way means we would win this case. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, I am a realist. What the state of California has done is illegal, violating state and federal law. That did not stop it from being done. There is no way anyone can guarantee that we would not end up with a corrupt Judge who would decide against us, or even if we won the first step, that the state would file for an appeal, dragging out the payment of any settlements until the appeal process is exhausted, which in this issue could be the US Supreme court. We could be talking many years before any settlements were paid. In the mean time, lawyers have bills they have to pay also.
In a nut shell, Dave has every reason to be wary of proceeding until a large portion of money is raised or PLP is successful in the first step of that lawsuit.
So, unless someone has around a hundred grand to donate or a way to raise that kind of money fast, I think Dave's approach to wait is the right choice.

Mark

  
kgphoto
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 23:32:13 ThuOct 22 2009 )

I am thinking that Dave should just send all the money collected for the lawsuit to PLP. That way the money can be used for what it was donated for.

Dave is a business man and he only has so much of his own business money to invest in saving this business in California. It may make more business sense to move the program to Oregon and leave California as he has already started to do. That is his choice and his alone to make.

I just don't want him to take YOUR money with him that you gave to fight this battle.

  
wampy73
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 05:01:20 FriOct 23 2009 )




I can tell you from first hand knowledge that any State or Federal form of government has attorneys that all their job is to delay, delay, delay. There will be a hearing scheduled and they will come up with some reason for a continuance or file for a motion at the last moment that requires the opposing side to file briefs, obtain expert witness's or a multitude of other work for our attorney and that translates into money.
We all know that if we take this case to Federal Court we should win, but the other side is betting that we want, due to the costs involved. There are cases everyday that the Plaintiff knows he will win if he could just get to the final hearing. But a sharp attorney can file all kinds of motions ( motions for summary judgment, motion for dismissal, motions for the Plaintiff to provide a expert witness to support his case, so on and so on the list goes on) that delays ever getting your day in court. And I will say it again, it costs a lot of money to bring on a law suit against a public or government entity.
If you enjoy dredging, then you should be ready to dig into your pockets and shell out some cash or we will see the end of dredging staring in California.
I am of the opinion that the dues should be increased to help off set legal fees. Heck none of us wants to have to pony up money for anything much less an attorney but that is the nature of the ways things have to be done to secure that we have our day in court and that we stand up for our rights not only as miners but as citizens of The United States and let these special interest groups know that we are not going to sit by on our rumps as they take away our dredging rights and commit Tyranny on miners. From those who post here on the forum, I see that several would not want dues raised, then why not require a permit to dredge on the club claims. That way if you are not a dredger you want have to feel that you had to pay any additional money for something you do not take part in. I am sure that a small fee type permit from 49ers members who dredge want pay for the attorney's fees buy it will go toward the cause as that is what is a stake here folks.
Someone posted that they would like to see a unified effort from all of the miners, mining clubs,non-profit organizations such as PLP, manufactures of mining equipment, local business that sell to dredgers and local government who collect taxes on the claims that will be nearly worthless if dredging is banned. Seems that if we combined forces with all who have a stake in dredging and mining rights that we could accomplish our goals with out a hardship on anyone individual. Just to get everyone on the same page would be a major undertaking and would involve forming some type of organization. Maybe a non-profit organization, as donations to these types are tax deductible. ( at least for now) Just my 2 cents worth.

Based on what I have seen, the attorney's and lobbyists that Dave has hired do an outstanding job and with out these people and the work that Dave and others who work with out pay to insure that we maintained our dredging and mining rights, you can bet we would have been out of the water before this year. These attorney's and lobbyists have to be paid and so if its the dredgers they are representing then we should have a major part in the funding along with others who benefit from the dredgers.
If being thrown off of the rivers and streams this summer, the State of CA keeping our money for the dredging permit and knowing that the future of dredging is at stake does not justify digging into our pockets and pony up some cash to fight these issues we might as well sell our dredging equipment to foreign countries, as if CA Dredging goes then all States will follow.

  
UncleMark
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 17:57:16 SatOct 24 2009 )

kgphoto,

I take personal offense that you would even suggest that Dave would take any of this legal fund money for his own personal use other than for what it is intended !!!!! You have no idea of the effort that Dave has put in to this for all of us miners. How dare you question his integrity.

As for sending money collected for the New 49ers legal fund to PLP, what money? What part of Dave's letter did you not understand?

All the money collected has been spent on what it was intended for, and the lack of contributions has required Dave to spend money out of his own pocket to make up the difference.

So, what legal fund money do you think is available for Dave to run off with or send to PLP?

When there is less money sent in than spent on this effort, there is none left over.

The New 49ers has not started to leave California. All our California claims are still valid and open to all members in good standing for all forms of mining accept dredging. The club has just expanded into Oregon to provide dredging opportunities for it's members close to the Happy Camp club headquarters.

Mark

  
ratled
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 19:58:32 SatOct 24 2009 )

What Mark said!!! This is not a Dave thing, not a New 49er thing it's a dredging thing. Dave has stepped up to fight the good fight for ALL.

MOST dredgers are NOT New 49ers, yet it seams that everyone wants Dave and the New 49ers to pay for this fight. I understand that some choose to support only PLP and thats fine but now is the time to step up and save YOUR rights. Get your own lawyer, send money to PLP, send money to Dave or do all that you can but don't think Dave is can do it alone without OUR help

Steve

  
joeandlisa
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Re: New 49ers Lawsuit ( 21:18:44 SatOct 24 2009 )

Hello All, Emotions are running high right now,and rightly so.I think kgphoto, like most of us, is just trying to make some economic sense to what we face.Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt. Dave is, and has been,the Leader of this Band of Brothers that we count ourselves among. That being said lets all agree "WERE MAD AS HELL AND WERE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE"!!! Joe L.



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new49er#1243 lrobinson435@msn.com
 
 

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