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colo_nuggets
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Lawyer's Fee ( 00:54:18 WedOct 21 2009 )

Hey Dave how much does your lawyer want for a Federal lawsuit fee?

  
socalgold
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 02:07:36 WedOct 21 2009 )

It's a bunch, a BIG bunch


  
Dave_Mack
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 09:09:14 WedOct 21 2009 )

There is no way to tell how much the whole thing will cost (too many variables). At a minimum, just to get started, we need to set aside a retainer of $35,000.


  
AuTSaurus
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 15:44:20 WedOct 21 2009 )

Socal,

With regards to your avatar,

you are correct.


Greg

  
socalgold
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 01:29:38 ThuOct 22 2009 )

I love my country and respect the flag and what it stands for. The reason for it being in the "distress" position is that I feel our country as we know it is soon to be history. Especially if O signs the Copenhagen Treaty in Dec. AND he says he will.
[1 edits; Last edit by socalgold at 01:30:31 Thu Oct 22 2009]

  
AuTSaurus
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 03:36:32 ThuOct 22 2009 )

We share the same concerns, I noticed your signal right off.

Greg

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 20:37:01 ThuOct 22 2009 )

Ok, How much has been paid in for the Federal lawsuit so far?

  
Dave_Mack
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 04:41:39 FriOct 23 2009 )

We have not started a federal law suit. But we have expenditures with ongoing litigation in Alameda County, and with a federal appeal that was just filed by our adversaries to try and overturn the lawsuit we won with the USFS several years ago. We also have lobbyists on a retainer contract through the rest of the year.

Since I must provide a personal guarantee to the attorneys and lobbyists for payment, and industry contributions have been poor for the last 6 months or so, I have been cashing in my own reserves to make payments on legal -- to the tune of $7,095 in the last 3 months.

Legal costs continue, since we cannot just quit litigation once it has started.

I have always told you guys that raising the money is the hardest part of defending the industry. I'm certain PLP feels the same kind of continuous distress!

Rather then beg you guys for money, I've just been digging in to pay the balance of what contributions don't cover.

This should explain my reluctance to commit us to an entirely new legal action without having some strong show of support from the industry in advance. I'm not getting a message of strong support! Not even of weak support!

That's just the way it is at the moment.

Someone suggested that people in the industry might not have money to help. I can go along with that.

However, with gold prices shooting up as they are (and they are just going to keep going up), I'm also wondering why the thousands of prospectors on our mailing list can't come up with $10 a month to fight for our right to continue mining?

It doesn't take big contributions if a lot of people pitch in!

This I will say: I cannot cover the cost of our shortfall every month on my own.

Who is going to defend our rights if it is not us?

I would like to spearhead our effort; I would like to do the job! But not if it is going to drive me personally into bankruptcy!

Don't get me wrong. Some of you guys out there really do help. Just not enough of you.

There, now I've said it. We would need to see a lot more contributions coming in before I personally would sign another payment guarantee!!



  
wampy73
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 05:05:52 FriOct 23 2009 )




I can tell you from first hand knowledge that any State or Federal form of government has attorneys that all their job is to delay, delay, delay. There will be a hearing scheduled and they will come up with some reason for a continuance or file for a motion at the last moment that requires the opposing side to file briefs, obtain expert witness's or a multitude of other work for our attorney and that translates into money.
We all know that if we take this case to Federal Court we should win, but the other side is betting that we want, due to the costs involved. There are cases everyday that the Plaintiff knows he will win if he could just get to the final hearing. But a sharp attorney can file all kinds of motions ( motions for summary judgment, motion for dismissal, motions for the Plaintiff to provide a expert witness to support his case, so on and so on the list goes on) that delays ever getting your day in court. And I will say it again, it costs a lot of money to bring on a law suit against a public or government entity.
If you enjoy dredging, then you should be ready to dig into your pockets and shell out some cash or we will see the end of dredging staring in California.
I am of the opinion that the dues should be increased to help off set legal fees. Heck none of us wants to have to pony up money for anything much less an attorney but that is the nature of the ways things have to be done to secure that we have our day in court and that we stand up for our rights not only as miners but as citizens of The United States and let these special interest groups know that we are not going to sit by on our rumps as they take away our dredging rights and commit Tyranny on miners. From those who post here on the forum, I see that several would not want dues raised, then why not require a permit to dredge on the club claims. That way if you are not a dredger you want have to feel that you had to pay any additional money for something you do not take part in. I am sure that a small fee type permit from 49ers members who dredge want pay for the attorney's fees buy it will go toward the cause as that is what is a stake here folks.
Someone posted that they would like to see a unified effort from all of the miners, mining clubs,non-profit organizations such as PLP, manufactures of mining equipment, local business that sell to dredgers and local government who collect taxes on the claims that will be nearly worthless if dredging is banned. Seems that if we combined forces with all who have a stake in dredging and mining rights that we could accomplish our goals with out a hardship on anyone individual. Just to get everyone on the same page would be a major undertaking and would involve forming some type of organization. Maybe a non-profit organization, as donations to these types are tax deductible. ( at least for now) Just my 2 cents worth.

Based on what I have seen, the attorney's and lobbyists that Dave has hired do an outstanding job and with out these people and the work that Dave and others who work with out pay to insure that we maintained our dredging and mining rights, you can bet we would have been out of the water before this year. These attorney's and lobbyists have to be paid and so if its the dredgers they are representing then we should have a major part in the funding along with others who benefit from the dredgers.
If being thrown off of the rivers and streams this summer, the State of CA keeping our money for the dredging permit and knowing that the future of dredging is at stake does not justify digging into our pockets and pony up some cash to fight these issues we might as well sell our dredging equipment to foreign countries, as if CA Dredging goes then all States will follow.

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 22:04:30 FriOct 23 2009 )

Ok Dave, if someone was to put thousands of dollars toward the lawsuit, could there name be added to said lawsuit to get there money back in the way of damages? Or what about a full membership for x amount of a donation? Maybe this could be of a class action type, im sure alot of people would like to be on that list. It would also make people feel alot more involved with the process for a win!


  
AuTSaurus
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 00:29:19 SatOct 24 2009 )

Well, I haven't been able to get up there since 2004, I've made plans every year since to make a trip up, and something always happens to mess up those plans. Now it looks like it is going to have to wait until I retire.

I send what I can, when I can. In August, LipCa challenged anyone to match his donation every month until the end of the year, so I'm going to try and match him.

Harry, today I'm putting in the amount for August, September, and October. The next two months, especially December, might be a little late, what with Christmas, but I'll see..

Greg

  
Dave_Mack
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 06:17:46 SatOct 24 2009 )

These are all good ideas, and I appreciate all the good intentions; believe me, I do!

Here are several points from my perspective:

1) It would be a bad move to try and raise annual membership dues. We have written Agreements with all our Full Members that place annual dues at $50. I would be breaking firm business agreements to try and change that. This is a matter of honorable conduct with all of our members -- who already trust that I would not try and change existing agreements. Since there is no way that I would, we have to take this idea off the table.

2) Giving memberships away in exchange for legal contributions would undermine the very company sales that allows us to pay our staff and cover all the other costs which keep us in business. So we cannot go there, either. At present, ongoing sales are just making expenses (except for legal costs). There is no room to give sales away at the moment.

3) The industry has pulled together and is in mutual cooperation. I keep hearing from people that the industry is not unified. But I am plugged into the industry as good as anyone, and I cannot see a single thing that the different organizations are doing that is counter productive.

We cannot pool the whole industry's resources together to hire a single attorney. This is because there are numerous legitimate, but different, legal theories (all of them are good) on how we should proceed. I can just tell you from 30 years in the business that it would be virtually impossible to meld all of these different viewpoints into a single legal theory. That will never happen! And a single attorney cannot argue all of the different theories (some of them offset each other).

So prospectors of like mind pull together to raise resources to hire attorneys to argue for our side with sincere belief and hope that their/our particular theory will win the day. If there is more than one attorney representing more than one group, arguing different legal theories, I have never seen a case where the groups and attorney's for our side did not help and cooperate for the good of the industry.

It is better to have multiple theories being argued by different attorneys for our side; because you don't know in advance which theory is going to gain traction with the court. Every judge also has a different viewpoint.

4) Since there is so much at stake, I believe it would be very unwise for the industry to put all our eggs in a single basket -- allowing just a single legal theory to try and overcome State interference with our federal mining rights. The result will affect all mining in America forever.

This is especially true since gold prices are going up, and there are tens of thousands of existing prospectors (and more starting up every day) who would likely be willing to contribute $10/month (or more) if they were aware of what we are up against.

5) Our challenge is how to energize this resource (thousands of prospectors who have a personal interest in the outcome). I need a lot of help with this; since, on my own I have recently not even been able to even energize the prospectors and members who have traditionally been supporting our defensive efforts over the past 3 or 4 years.

6) In a leadership position, I am in a bind; because our organization must first pay the costs of ongoing litigation and lobbying commitments before committing to new battles.

But the State authority (over mining on the public lands) question is the most important thing we are facing today. California has shut down dredging with no evidence that we have ever harmed a single fish, while they continue to issue millions of fish-kill licenses to others, and while they allow Indian tribes to kill as many fish as they want. Oregon is now on the band wagon of wanting to kill off suction dredging, even though the most recent study of cumulative impacts from suction dredging (conducted in Southern Oregon) prove that our cumulative harmful impact is so small that it cannot even be measured.

This is a challenge which must be carefully brought in federal court. If we don't bring the challenge soon, and it is not done well, the States are going to kill us off.

But we cannot bring the challenge unless we can somehow energize thousands of prospectors to help provide financial support to pay (the best) specialists for our side.

That is, unless we can find single donors who are in a financial position to invest larger amounts into the effort. The answer on that question, by the way, is yes. If you are willing to substantially invest in the litigation, you could also be named as a party in the litigation. We will put you in communication with the attorney concerning the prospect of recovering costs and damages.

So it comes down to this; how can we generate financial support within our own industry? This is your challenge as much as it is mine.

My efforts over the past few months have not been very productive. It's not that I haven't tried. Perhaps our supporters are getting so accustomed to my appeals, that they are taking them less seriously? Maybe everyone is still in shock that California passed SB 670?

Maybe you guys can help?

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 15:06:20 SatOct 24 2009 )

Dave wrote-- That is, unless we can find single donors who are in a financial position to invest larger amounts into the effort.

Ok, what is that number going to be?
How many people can be listed on the lawsuit?

Thanks Scott

  
ward35
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 15:49:19 SatOct 24 2009 )

Since donations are down & may remain so, It appears that to continue the lawsuit at the federal level, the members of the club will have to fund it. Dave, The office should personally call or mail full & associate memebrs and see if we can can come up with at enough members who will commit to funding the lawsuit. For example 100 members willing to commit $1,000 over the course of coming year hopefully would be a good start. If cash is the issue Im sure a lot of our memebers could donate that $ amount in gold. members that commit to this could be billed from the office monthly or however to keep a consistant cash flow. We should be able to find enough within our own ranks to do this. Count me in.
[1 edits; Last edit by ward35 at 15:50:44 Sat Oct 24 2009]

  
joeandlisa
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 16:07:56 SatOct 24 2009 )

Hello All, ward35 and colo_nuggets,I'm on the same page with both of you on this.Lets talk and bounce some ideas around,take the ball and run with this. Whisper me and I will get you my e-mail address,ph.number. joeandlisa Joe L.



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joeandlisa
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 20:44:15 SatOct 24 2009 )

Dave, I think that is a Great idea Ward has.If we could win our case in Federal Court that would set Precedence for any Crap lawsuits coming down the pike for years to come,maybe generations.I punch a timeclock for a living and have been off work for 2 months now due to tearing my shoulder up.But,come hell or high water,I would come up with 1K to have my name put on that class action lawsuit.That, with Ward and I in leaves 98.Lets see people who can, put their money where their mouth is.We are without a doubt in the right here,I challenge people who can to step up. What do you think Dave? If we got 100K commited and in the bank could we proceed on this? joeandlisa Joe L.



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Dave_Mack
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 01:57:13 SunOct 25 2009 )

It's a good idea, but I don't want to implement a phone calling campaign to our members from New 49'er headquarters.

The reason is that people join up with us in trust that we are not going to start calling them up and putting them on the spot for legal contributions.

Yes, I agree emergency circumstances do require extraordinary measures.

But I learned the lesson the hard way during the early 90's that if we exert too much pressure on members, while we can raise money for legal, we end up losing members and it all results in a net loss.

It's better that we find another way to reach out to the thousands of prospectors, rather than exploit the private contact information that our members trust us with.

Let's please keep trying?

  
AuTSaurus
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 20:08:42 SunOct 25 2009 )

Hello to all,

I also agree with Ward35, this is a very good idea.

I also agree with Dave. His reasoning is logical and shows his commitment to the members to preserve the conditions, and/or conditions that a person could expect, and/or were presented as a membership package.

I agree that, (if only on the fact that you can’t please everyone all the time), some members would be unhappy, find fault, or would complain if contacted/solicited by the club administration.

I would suggest, AND it’s just a suggestion, that Ward’s idea goes forward with all contacts made by members to other members, keeping the office and the club out of this portion of the proposed effort, in order to keep this a completely voluntary undertaking.

We all want dredging back, and those that really care to help in this way AND can afford it at the same time, would probably think about it for a little and decide to help. (Hopefully.)

Obviously the office would have to see to putting people’s names on the “list”, but participating members would contact the office themselves with their info and financial arrangements.

I, too, would voluntarily include myself for the amount proposed by Ward35.

I will keep watching this thread for further progress on this issue by other members. Anyone that would like to contact me, just ask for my contact info here, or give me yours.

Greg
[1 edits; Last edit by AuTSaurus at 21:08:35 Sun Oct 25 2009]

  
chickenlip_willie
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 20:17:16 SunOct 25 2009 )

Dave has explained all of what we are up against to put together a Federal law suite, and I don't know how much simpler he can explain it. We need to put together about $100 grand in the bank in order to get it started and see it through to the end, maybe more before its over?

The idea of each person putting up $1000 dollars for a class action Federal suite is a good idea in my opinion. Now where does everyone come up with that $1000 bucks? I am retired and living on a fixed income. In order to comitte to donate my $1000 dollars I am willing to sell my Proline Super 4 inch dredge, and donate my $1000 dollars to the suite as a class action. The point that I am making is simple,if you are willing to sacrifice for what you believe in and am willing to fight, you can come up with the dollars!! We can do this and make it work!!

Now all we need is 99 more people to do the same. I will start it off and challenge everyone to put up or shut up !! Lets get it done !! ..... Jim Yerby ...:whoohoo::doublethumbsup:

[3 edits; Last edit by chickenlip_willie at 20:56:50 Sun Oct 25 2009]

  
UncleMark
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 00:52:55 MonOct 26 2009 )

Dave,
It is great to see this interest in support of a federal lawsuit. In light of the interest this post has created in a "class action" or just a large list of plaintiffs, would $1000.00 be enough to be listed in this proposed lawsuit? Maybe it is time to contact the attorney and give us an amount that could be donated to be listed in this lawsuit because it looks like this is generating enough interest to possibly raise a substantial amount of money.
If $1000.00 would work, I would find a way to come up with that amount to be listed as a plaintiff.
Mark

  
snakdude
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 17:05:09 MonOct 26 2009 )

Dave, one has to wonder how many miners are out there that don't have a lot of money to live on and think that the donation they CAN afford ($1.00 maybe $2 or $3) isn't enough to make any differance so why bother to send anything....but think about one or two thousand people sending 1 or 2 or 3 dollars as they can afford it, now it starts to add up! People need to realize it is not always the big donations that get the job done....kind of like gold, there is a lot more small gold than large nuggets, everyone should send what they can...no donation should be to small and no-one should be embarassed because they can only afford small donations THEY ALL COUNT !!! Everone should be involved and feel an ownership in the future of this industry as a whole, even if they don't dredge because you can bet that if they end dredging highbanking, vac-mining or just plain panning may be next!!! Something everyone should be thinking about. I've sent in a donation and hope to send more....PLEASE EVERONE SEND WHATEVER YOU CAN AFFORD!!!!

  
joeandlisa
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 20:23:43 WedOct 28 2009 )

Greetings, No,thats 95 more Jim,with you,me,Ward,Uncle Mark and Greg !!! 5% there! You are right snakdude that every donation matters,and no one should ever feel embarrased about giving,no matter what the size of their contribution.We are all in this together,richer and poorer. I just feel that right now we have the best opportunity that we are probably ever going to have to put a stop once and for all to this nonsense.We may not in 6mo or a year,depending on what happens,never again be in this obvious situation where we can defend ourselves so vigorously and insure our future for years to come. I know no one likes to go hat in hand asking for money,it's not comfortable and feels a bit demeaning.That is the rock and the hard place Dave has been for years.Maybe this would work.... If like Uncmark say's , the attorneys could be approached and more info on a class action suit is gotten,then if we knew more specifics,a list of names etc.. could be kept,generated,and through word of mouth,armtwisting etc.. when the $$$ amount was reached,and the number of plaintiffs,this could go forward.Another thing,no matter what the contribution,or whatever the names on the suit,A WIN IS A WIN AND A WIN IS FOR ALL. Joe L. joeandlisa



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snakdude
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 20:50:07 WedOct 28 2009 )

Check out prospecting forum "a pound of gold for Dave" this may help those that don't have a lot of cash but can spare a little gold for the cause. This has caught on quite well and I think it will generate a lot of help a little bit at a time. Let's all get together and show the "darkside" that we can be a co-ordinated front and with the strength of our numbers we CAN win this!!!!!

  
UncleMark
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 18:17:30 SatOct 31 2009 )

Snakedude,

You are totally correct that ANY contribution, no matter how large or small, be it gold, cash, silver, old jewelry, coins or donations of prizes for legal fund drawings, it very important to this cause, and any amount whether large or small should be sent to help.

The issue right now is contributions have slowed and as Dave wrote above, he needs help coming up with ideas on how to get contributions increased. Dave has been putting his heart into this effort for over twenty years now, and as he said, he doesn't feel that there is enough financial support to cover the legal cost of a federal lawsuit, and I quote Dave,

"This should explain my reluctance to commit us to an entirely new legal action without having some strong show of support from the industry in advance. I'm not getting a message of strong support! Not even of weak support!"

Now you are correct that Ratled has come up with a great concept, "A POUND OF GOLD FOR DAVE"
http://bb.bbboy.net/thenew49ers-viewthread?forum=1&thread=190

and the response has been great.

I in no way want to belittle Ratled's effort with his idea of a pound of gold for Dave, as I have contributed gold to that cause so Ratled gets credit for his effort to help Dave with this issue, and I have also given Ratled a few ideas on how he might get a larger response from more miners.

There are some of us who are interested in the issue Ward35 brought up, and if being listed as a plaintiff is another idea or way to get some larger contributions coming in from people who may not contribute that much otherwise, it is an idea that needs to be given consideration. There has been enough interest in Ward35's issue to get possibly five large contributions in just one week.I am sure there are many more people who would be interested in this.

Dave, if you are to busy right now to contact the attorney about this, can one of us do it for you?

Mark
[1 edits; Last edit by UncleMark at 18:30:25 Sat Oct 31 2009]

  
dennishinckley
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 07:50:48 ThuNov 5 2009 )

Dave you say

(1) It would be a bad move to try and raise annual membership dues. We have written Agreements with all our Full Members that place annual dues at $50. I would be breaking firm business agreements to try and change that. This is a matter of honorable conduct with all of our members -- who already trust that I would not try and change existing agreements. Since there is no way that I would, we have to take this idea off the table.)

And I agree you cannot change a contract. But we need a way to make all members pay equal amounts for the memberships they have, in order to protect the membership. Without these payments our memberships can become worthless. Instead of raising the dues, why can't you have a vote of the members to install a $10.00 to $20.00 fee each year for legal expense to each membership,If the members vote for it, I would bet most members would be glad to sign a new contract. This way you would have a way of knowing about how much money to expect for legal fees each year, and everyone would know all members were helping in the fight.
If you do this, sign me up for the new contract. I am tired of sending in money, and watching others send nothing.

Dennis

Dennis

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 14:47:59 ThuNov 5 2009 )

If Dave wont hire the attorney without a minimum of 35k its not even close to being started. I for one dont like tossing money at a project and waiting around for someone to tell me the result. Some people with the money aren't going to just give it up without there name on the lawsuit. They want there money back from something like this. If the membership dues where 30.00 more x 3000 members you would have 90k not to shabby. But hes already stated hes not going to do it. By the time 35k is reached PLP will already have a decision at the rate its going, and the new lawsuit would just be starting. You cant have your name added to there lawsuit /that I know of/ and throw thousands at it. So whatcha gonna do? The idea of a small amount of money from alot of people works when you have everyone donating. But that's not the case. A pound of gold for Dave is a good concept same principle a little bit of money or gold from a lot of people, problem is its the same people over and over. Me, Uncle Mark others have the ability to get this think going I think.... Im guessing a lot of you have a oz or 2 of gold, thats my theory. But like you im sure you want it back for those amounts of money. So for now I just go after the e- bay PLP gold auctions. You instantly donated to PLP and you got most of your money back to do it again and again. Besides we shouldn't even have had to go to court over this if Arni knew the law! So what do ya think? Turn up the volume on the gold amount to 1 to 2 ozs get your name on the lawsuit or don't if you don't want to. Now is anyone interested in that? Sell your gold and use the cash, keep your money until enough people have signed up for it. If not, you didn't lose a couple of grand. I will sign up first 2k whose next?

  
ward35
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 00:22:48 FriNov 6 2009 )

From the responses of just 5 or 6 of us we would have nearly 20% of the $35,000! The problem is most members probably dont view the forum, so its hard to gauge a true response. Anyone have any ideas how to inform more members? Another idea. i would think some of local businesses depend on us miners for a significant portion of there business, that may be another area to search for funding if it has not already been done.

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 05:11:47 FriNov 6 2009 )

I hear ya, lets see who is up for something strong, because that is what its gonna take. If not it will help Dave for his out of pocket loss on the extras from what has been turned in so far on the prior lawsuit. Lets give it a few days and let people juggle there finances. But signing on for this doesn't require anything but the fact that you can get the gold/money together. Personally I don't think you will see more than 2 maybe 3 people respond. I think they just do not want to risk it. But who knows lets see what shows up here and on a pound of gold for Dave and add it up. If its way under 35k your just wasting your time trying to get a new lawsuit off the ground and all the motivation in the world isn't going to change that. If the lawyer wants around 100k ballpark I don't see it happening. If you see 100k or even 35k showing up in the short term hey im all ears, lay it on me. What ever gets it done. But if you don't see real money coming in on this new lawsuit your better off helping PLP. Lets see what happens here and go from there. 1 strong win is better than 2 weak losses any day.

Actually I see I am second to sign up Chickenlip Willie was first with 1k. So thats 3k so far, plus about 1oz from a pound of gold for Dave so total 4k. Still a ways to go to get a retainer whos next?
[1 edits; Last edit by colo_nuggets at 06:44:59 Fri Nov 6 2009]

  
colo_nuggets
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 15:12:17 SatNov 7 2009 )

Going once!

  
AuTSaurus
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Re: Lawyer's Fee ( 06:56:04 SunNov 8 2009 )

Well, like I said in one of my earlier posts, I've kept a watch on this thread, and so far, well.... .

Monday I will be sending in my $50.00 for November, in my pledge to match LipCa, and in January I will make the first monthly donation of $100.00, for a year, as Ward35 suggested.

Any one else, able to, and willing to, match?

Greg
[1 edits; Last edit by AuTSaurus at 21:00:01 Sun Nov 8 2009]

  

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