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BoxerMad
15:24:06 Sat
Aug 1 2009

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Kirei at the vets.

Hi all

Just got back from the vets, yesterday Kirei was not really herself but could not make out what was wrong with her - she was eating, going to the toilet but was very sleepy and moving around very slow.

I went out this morning and when i came back she was limping really badly - phoned the vets straight away and took her in. It seems she has possibly fractured one of the small bones in her back leg:worried:

They have kept her in at the vets and will sedate her and do some x-rays tomorrow (they could have done it today but as i had been out i couldn't tell them if she had eaten at all as i leave biscuits down for them all the time).

Hopefully if it is a small fracture it can be treated without an operation but if it is worse than they think she will need an op and at her age it could be a very long healing process:ohwell: Fingers crossed it will only be minor and can be treated without the op!

I already had an appointment booked at the vets for monday to go in and talk to them about her gums and getting them sorted out but as she now has to have an anaesthetic for the x-rays they should be able to do her gums tomorrow at the same time - so at least that will save her another anaesthetic at a later date.

Thank god for pet insurance though - the estimated bill for all her x-rays etc tomorrow is 800!!!!!! If she needs an op it could be a further 3000!!!!! :eek:

So please anyone out there who does not yet have insurance think about it seriously. Since having my 3 boxers i have definately claimed back more then i have paid in insurance instalments and although it is another direct debit each month i would much rather pay that than now be looking at a bill for a possible 4000!



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Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
Jakes_mum
14:55:53 Sun
Aug 2 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Good luck tomorrow!
Liz

  
BoxerMad
17:25:32 Sun
Aug 2 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Thanks Liz

She had a load of x-rays done today but they didn't show up anything so they are going to wait for the specialist to have a look at them tomorrow. If it is not a fracture then they will do a scan to see if it is anything to do with her tendons or ligaments.
Had some more bad news though - the vet also found a couple of small growths on her stomach on her mammary glands - she has just come out of season and always gets a little milk every time so hadn't really noticed them as she was slightly swollen round there anyway but she will also need to have them removed.
They have not done anything about her gums at the moment as with her leg problem and also the growths she has enough going on without a sore mouth too.
Went to visit her this afternoon and she was quite perky, kept trying to get out of her kennel though and obviously with her leg she is better of lying down at the moment, i just wanted to bring her home with me and give her a big cuddle on the sofa:sad: but i know she is in the best place for now. Should find out some more tomorrow after she has seen the specialist, hopefully they will be able to treat her and she will be back home soon.
Henry and Busta are wondering what i have done with her - they were looking for her all last night and when i got back from the vets this afternoon they wouldn't leave me alone as they could smell her on my hands and clothes. Fingers crossed for some better news tomorrow:luck:



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Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
sandyc
09:03:57 Mon
Aug 3 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you and your baby,too.
sandyc and kids

  
SashasMum
17:37:08 Mon
Aug 3 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Keeping everything crossed for you Caroline. Poor wee lamb

My last girl had mammary tumours and had four "breasts" removed and she never had another lump as long as I had her!

Let us know how she gets on with her leg, poor wee soul xx



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BoxerMad
18:35:59 Mon
Aug 3 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Thanks everyone.

Kirei came home from the vets this afternoon. After seeing the specialist this morning it turns out it wasn't a fracture after all. She has swelling around her back paw which is difficult to see just by looking but showed up on the x-rays. She is now walking on her back leg - On saturday when i took her in she wouldn't even put it down on the floor. There is a possibility that she has some minor damage to the soft tissue in her leg but with the improvement overnight they are hopeful that it will heal itself. She is on painkillers and is still very sleepy from the valium she had at the vets this afternoon.

I am going to stay off work tomorrow to ensure she is ok but i am just so glad to have her home.

She has an appointment at my own vets on Friday for a follow up and also to talk about the mammary growths and her gums - will be glad when it is all sorted out......i bet she will be too!!!

All her treatment over the weekend was done at the emergency vets which is part of the same group and by coincidence it was my own vet who treated her as he was covering the emergency department over the weekend. This really pleased me as he has been her vet since i first bought her home and knows her well.

She is sleeping soundly now and seems to be slowly becoming more aware of what is going on around her.

Will keep you updated after her appointment on Friday.

Thanks again for all your good wishes - it means a lot especially after i have been away for so long.

Caroline xxx



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Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
BoxerMad
00:34:25 Tue
Aug 4 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Just got back from the emergency vets again - had to take Kirei back in and now really worried about her.
Not because of her leg now either - when i got her home earlier she seemed as if she was slowly starting to recover from the medication she had been on, however after a couple of hours she seemed to be getting worse again. Very disorientated, not very alert and extremely sleepy. I called the vets back around 11.30pm and told them that i was concerned but was told that as long as she didn't seem distressed it was probably only side effects from the medication and to monitor her throughout the night.
Within another 45 minutes of making that call her breathing kept changing and when she was breathing slowly she seemed to be clenching up and had started moaning. Her eyes were darting all over the place and then she would try to get up in a panic but collapse again.
Took her straight back to the vets which luckily is only a couple of miles from my house. The vet checked her over and said that her breathing is very laboured and her heart rate is very low. They readmitted her immediately and i am now waiting for a call from them as soon as they have done some more blood tests.
I can't believe that i took her in for a limp and now she is struggling to breathe which i can only think is something to do with the medication she has been on.
Yesterday whilst she was still in the vets i went to visit her and she was her usual self even though she had just come round from the anaesthetic, today she was like a completely different dog and yet had not had any further medication except mild painkillers.
Now another night of worry - all i keep thinking about is this is like Tia all over again. We brought her home, then had to rush her back.............
Please everyone keep your fingers crossed for Kirei, the vet said that he is very concerned about her condition now and i am so worried about her.
Caroline xxx



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Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
BoxerMad
02:01:58 Tue
Aug 4 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets. HELP!!!

The vet has called and it appears Kirei has got what is called heart block. This means that only half her heart is functioning as it should be - it should be beating at 80 - 90 beats per minute but is only beating at 40. She is in a critical condition and it is a case of hoping she will make it through the night.:luck:

As soon as i got off the phone from the vets i looked up the condition on the internet - this is caused by the wrong type of general anaesthetic being used.
Boxers should not be given the standard type due to 'Acepromazine' used as a preanaesthetic - this can cause a severe reaction in boxers which leads to heart block. Due to this a different type of anaesthetic should be used - however at the moment i do not know which one they have used and i don't know what to do. Should i speak to them and let them know i am aware of this and ask which type they used? Will they tell me? If they realise this is what has happened will they already have amended her notes? I don't know what to do - i am fuming:vangry: She went into the vets a perfectly healthy dog, just a problem with one of her back legs and now she may not make it through the night.

'If' she makes it through the night it is likely she will now need surgery to fit a pacemaker to her heart, this will need to be done as soon as possible and possibly as early as tomorrow.

As i am writing this the vet just called me again with the results of her blood tests - these appear to be relatively normal and similiar to the ones that were taken on Saturday - the only difference being that they are showing that her liver is slightly inflamed but is not anything to be worried about at the moment. He said she has got up and walked around briefly although she is still very unsteady on her feet - they have put her on a drip to get some fluids into her and will now monitor her through the night. If there is no improvement in her heart rate by the morning then a decision will be made about surgery.

I really don't know what to do - all i want is Kirei better but if they have used the wrong anaesthetic and caused this what should i do - HELP!!!!

Caroline xxx



---
Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
Tuija
09:48:33 Tue
Aug 4 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets. HELP!!!

So sorry to hear about all your problems with Kirei, hope everything turns out well. I think you should ask what kind of anaesthetic was used because if you don't you will always be wondering.

  
BoxerMad
12:36:49 Tue
Aug 4 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets. HELP!!!

Kirei passed away just before 7am this morning.

Her heart stopped beating and they were unable to get it started again.

I have been back down and spoken to the vet who looked after her overnight and he said they are aware of the problems with the standard anaesthetic in boxers and the correct one was used.

I have also asked for a copy of her notes to confirm this.

Absolutely gutted - she was a perfectly healthy dog, I took her in for a limp and within days she was gone because her heart gave out on her. I still can't believe it.

Caroline xxx



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Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
Tuija
13:48:46 Tue
Aug 4 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets. HELP!!!

I'm so sorry to hear this, my thoughts are with you, can't begin to imagine what you must be feeling like, especially as she was not particularly poorly when you took her to the vets in the first place.

  
Polo123
15:01:14 Tue
Aug 4 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Oh Caroline how awful, for all this to have happened so quickly too. At least the vet could reassure you about the ACP. I really don't know what to say but just to let you know I'm sending you all lots of love and prayers :bighug:



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Katiesnowflake
22:31:05 Tue
Aug 4 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

I queried this with the vet before Harvey had his heart scan which he needed to be sedated for. The vet said that yes they were aware of the problems in Boxers but ACP is the best anaesthetic to use and they used a very low dose on Boxers. Might be worth querying. They might not necessarily have jotted down on paper what the exact one they used. I know I was not happy to know that our boy was to have it at all but what can you do.

I feel so much for you, I really do. Such a terrible time for you all and to have lost your beautiful girl at the end of it.

Thinking of you all.

Helen
www.freewebs.com/velvetboxers/
Home of the White Boxer Dog Club



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BoxerMad
15:55:16 Wed
Aug 5 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

I have made an appointment to go to see the head vet for tomorrow evening to discuss what happened with Kirei.

Since yesterday i have been reading so much about boxers and heart problems. Apparently sudden death and fast deteriation due to heart problems is quite common in boxers, however i still want to know for sure if ACP was used, even if it was only a small amount because from everything i have read it all mentions that heart block is very often caused by the use of this as a pre-med in anaesthetics and it just seems such a coincidence that just over 24 hours of her having the anaesthetic she had developed this condition.

Helen you mentioned that your vet used it when Harvey had his heart scan - from what i have been reading quite a lot of vets still insist that this is the best one to use and that they say they use a low dose on boxers but there are alternatives out there which are just as effective and as owners we are well within our rights to insist that ACP is not used no matter how low the dose. It is also the cheapest, the alternatives do cost more and this is partly the reason why some vets still insist it is ok in low doses because they have not personally seen the effects it can have on a boxer.

I am sure there are thousands of boxers out there who have had this in both small and larger doses and have been fine but now i know there are alternatives out there i will make sure that it is never used should Henry or Busta ever require an anaesthetic again.

The articles i have been reading also mention that several people have questioned this before an anaesthetic, been convinced by their vet that it is ok and then gone on to lose their boxer due to heart block caused by the ACP.

I feel so stupid because i had heard about ACP before but never mentioned it to the vet as i just assumed that they would know about this and that it was commonplace that it was not used in boxers ever. If i find out tomorrow that it was used and this was possibly the cause of her death i will feel so bad that i had not questioned it before they went ahead.

I don't know if i will get all the answers i want tomorrow but at least i will know i did my best to find out what happened. I know for certain i will be having Henry & Busta's files marked with 'No ACP to be used' and will always question this in future if they should ever need an anaesthetic.

I will let you know how i get on tomorrow evening after my appointment.

Caroline xxx



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Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
luvnmylillynchilibean
16:25:10 Wed
Aug 5 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

i had no idea about the ACP. i hope you find out what happened...

  
Katiesnowflake
22:02:00 Wed
Aug 5 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

As far as I was concerned at the time I was worked up as it was wondering if Harvey had a heart condition because of the murmurs two vets had heard when he was younger so although I queried it I let myself be reassured by both the nurse and the vet. After what has happened with Kirei it makes me realise how lucky I was. From what you have said it makes me wonder if in fact, they keep any other type of anaesthetics. Given the choice at the time to have ACP or a more expensive drug, I would definitely have opted for the latter and I do believe that owners should be given that option.

Helen



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SashasMum
22:20:14 Wed
Aug 5 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Oh Caroline I have just caught up on this thread, I am so sorry to hear about Kirei, my thoughts are with you and I am sending loads of hugs. Not much use to you just now, I know, but I really am sorry.

With regards to the ACP, we have been talking to a leading specialist at the Dick Vets in Edinburgh about this because we had a huge argument with a vet about using ACP on boxers. Some vets will still use it and, apparently a lot of the consternation has been caused by the drug companies etc trying to get the newer drugs on to the market. This vet has used ACP for years and continues to use it on all breeds and he has NEVER had a problem with it. Personally, I still ask my vet not to use ACP as, with most things, once you have the doubt, then you will worry. Apparently the problem with ACP is it takes them longer to come round from it too, which is why boxers can struggle.

Sometimes Caroline, we might never find the answers. :bighug:



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HARIBOH
06:16:08 Thu
Aug 6 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Oh Caroline, im so sorry, you must be absolutely devastated :crying:

I fully agree with Helen, I wouldnt care if ACP was cheaper, I would almost certainly have paid the extra, had I been given the chance.

Sending hugs for you and your other babes..... they must miss her terribly :bighug:

Shona x



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BoxerMad
21:23:00 Thu
Aug 6 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Thank you everyone - your kind words really help right now.:flowers:

Went to see the vet this evening - Brendan came with me for support (and also because he wanted to know what had gone wrong too).

I asked the vet about the ACP. He told me that he has no problem using it in boxers and has never seen a problem with this, however he was aware of the reports that it can cause problems. He explained that he feels it has its advantages and that he uses it regularly in boxers but in a lower dose. I asked him if it was used for Kirei and he said no. As she was on sedatives already it was not required in her case and i am inclined to believe he is telling the truth as he had admitted that he does use it in boxers in general.

Something i was trying to find out on the internet but could not find the answer to was how quickly a dog would be affected if the drug was to cause problems and he answered this question for me. It would happen very quickly, most likely whilst the dog was still under the anaesthetic. There is an antidote if it were to go wrong, this would be administered and a decision made as to whether to continue with the procedure they were carrying out based on how the dog was reacting.

In Kireis case she had no problems during the anaesthetic and i saw her not long after she had come round and she was her usual self, wagging tail, giving me kisses etc. She started to go downhill about 24 hours later.

He said he cannot rule out the anaesthetic altogether as it could have aggravated a heart problem which we were unaware of. He explained how an anaesthetic worked and the problems it can cause if there are underlying problems. With regards to the other medication she was given, none of them have side effects which can cause heart problems. He explained about cardiomyopathy in boxers and different conditions linked to heart disease.

I also asked that if Henry or Busta were to need an anaesthetic in the future and i asked for them not to use ACP would this be a problem and he said not at all - it is my choice and there are alternatives available.

So feeling much better about everything now - still extremly sad that she has gone, but i do feel i have answers to all my questions i wanted to ask. I know if i had not gone back and asked those questions i always would have been wondering and wishing that i had asked.

Personally in the future i will insist that ACP is not used, although it does not appear to have caused the problems in Kirei's case i have read so much over the past few days that i would not want to take the chance. If there are alternatives out there why take the risk?

I do feel Boxer owners should be made aware of the risk and given a choice, however it seems it is only if the owner brings up the subject that this would be discussed which i feel is wrong as it seems there are so many people that are still not aware of the issues associated with ACP.

Thank you all for your support - i did jump to conclusions - thats just me! But i am glad i was able to discuss it with him and it really has put my mind at rest.

Kirei is being cremated individually so that i will get her ashes back. I still have Tias ashes in a casket in my living room.

Missing her loads - i always used to count the three of them back in before i shut the back door. It just doesn't seem right with just the two of them:ohwell:



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Caroline, Henry Monster, Bustaroo, Pepsi and the not forgotten Tia baby & Kirei xxxx


 
 
Katiesnowflake
00:51:08 Sat
Aug 8 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

So glad you got the answers you were seeking. Im glad you vet was supportive and helpful.

I know the feeling well, where once there was 3, counting, dishes, treats. Very sad.

Hugs

Helen



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Polo123
13:52:16 Sat
Aug 8 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Sounds like you have a very understanding vet, it's wonderful that he took the time to talk through things with you, I'm sure it wasn't easy for any of you :bighug:

When Polo had his ops we talked through ACP, they explained that a smaller dose was used routinely with boxers and that alternatives were available but any drug has the possibilty of side effects.

Give the boys a big hug from me , you & Brendan too :bighug:



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Jakes_mum
18:48:20 Mon
Aug 10 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Hi Caroline, i have just caught up and am so sorry to hear your news.

thinking of you all

Liz

  
Tuija
11:52:38 Tue
Aug 11 2009

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Re: Kirei at the vets.

Glad you got some answers - I will definitely ask about ACP in future.

  

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