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gingerboy
16:00:20 Thu
Aug 26 2004

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Aggression

Can anybody help?

Molly our brindle is very protective of Tash, I believe partly because Tash is younger and also because Tash is very submissive when other dogs are about. Molly has always watched out for her and will defend her if another dog is aggressive towards Tash (Tash is a real softie).

Molly was well socialised as a pup and attended puppy training at our local KC registered training class which she completed with flying colours. We then progressed up through the obedience classes and Molly was always fine with other dogs so long as they were not aggressive towards her.

When Molly was 12 months old we got Tash who was 10 weeks old. They soon became insepreable and Molly seemed to still be fine with other dogs.

Unfortuntely whilst on a walk along our local cycle track we came upon 2 other boxers both much larger than mine one was white and the other a large male red approx 7 stone in weight. Before I knew what was happening the 2 dogs came running over which did not worry me to much until the red male turned on Tash and was very aggressive towards her - to the point that she wet herself:sad:.

Myself and the other owner were still about 20 yards away from our respective dogs. Molly not amused at her little sis being attacked immediately threw her self upon the red male which retaliated with far more focre than Molly could possibly have expected and a boxer fight commenced that looked very nasty:shocked:.

Eventually I got Tash and Molly on their leads and checked they were ok, which physically they both were except for the odd scrape and a bit of dirt. I spoke to the other owners who were very apologetic as was I and we went our seperate ways.

Since this incident over 18 months ago Molly is now fully grown as is Tash. But whilst Molly was OK physically - mentally her attitude to other dogs has changed completely. She is very aggressive towards other dogs that are similair or larger in size, whilst she does not proceed to take chunks out of them she will pin them to the ground which can look much worse than it actually is.

I have resorted to an extender lead and when she is off the lead looking well ahead so that I have ample opportunity to recall her and put her back on the lead. I have never been one to impose physical means to re-inforce bad behaviour from either dog and do not raise my voice unless really necessary. I know that raising your voice when your dog is being aggressive is often regarded by dogs almost as a sign of approval of their behaviour.

Does any body have any suggestions as to proven methods of training Molly not to be on the offensive all the time and how to kerb her aggression as I have tried all sorts and am at a loss. This said I have managed to avoid any confrontations with other dogs by making sure she is on the lead when we are near other dogs and also letting her off on late night walks when I am the only person mad enough to be out and about in the pitch black and pouring rain.

Molly is only small approx 4 stone so not big in boxer terms at all, she is brilliant with people and children and I have no worrys about her being with my 21 month old daughter Mair as she has never been aggressive towards any family members or strangers.

I would rather find a way of solving the problem than have to keep her on the lead whilst Tash enjoys herself with other dogs during the daytime walks we have together.

Hope to hear your views soon, Paul

ps - somebody once asked if Molly and Tash were dwarf boxers, obviously not very familiar with the breed me thinks!!!!

  
SashasMum
17:05:30 Thu
Aug 26 2004

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Re: Aggression

My last boxer would kill on sight, especially when "her babies" were with us. It was extremely distressing to watch my gentle, placid angel rushing at any dog ready to pin them down with any force necessary! She once brought down a rotweiller with only minimal damage to herself!

Like you, we just used to keep a close eye on any approaching dogs and try and get her on the lead early enough. Even then she would be shouting at them as we went past!

We never managed to train her out of it and the only time she would be ok was if we didnt have the children with us. Another trick we learnt was to make sure she had something in her mouth - eg a stick or ball etc, thus keeping her occupied and not bothering to attack the other dogs!

Does this help??
Karen :wave:

  
gingerboy
20:04:13 Thu
Aug 26 2004

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Re: Aggression

Thanks Karen, its goog to know that I am not the only one who has experienced this problem. It looks like I will just have to keep my eyes peeled and continue with the late night walks.

Thanks, Paul

  
Guest [UnRegist
10:42:35 Fri
Aug 27 2004

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Re: Aggression

We have experienced similar problems with our white boxer, although I dont think he means to physically hurt another dog he will pin them down and make alot of noise. He doesnt approach other dogs, but will turn on them if they pester him. Like you we keep him occupied with a ball or frisbie and I am always close by to pull him off if he turns. I also warn the other owner he can sometimes be aggressive. The strange thing is some dogs he sees he will play with for hours and others he warns off straight away. Cant offer any solution other than being vigilant I'm afraid.:wave:

  
gingerboy
20:40:15 Fri
Aug 27 2004

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Thanks for the reply, it would appear a pattern is emerging here. Maybe I am worrying too much, as you rightly say it is the noise they make that sounds a lot worse than it actually is.

Molly is a lot better if she has a stone in her mouth - don't ask me why but she loves carrying unusually large stones and yes she is a strange dog!!Anyway hope to hear from you soon.

Paul :rotflmao:

  
SashasMum
21:13:31 Fri
Aug 27 2004

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Funny you should say about the stones. I had forgotten just how much my last boxer loved them. She would always carry one around if she couldnt find a stick, and actually managed to grind down her teeth on them from carrying and chewing them! Is it a boxer thing?!!

Karen :wave:

  
Guest [UnRegist
13:52:59 Sat
Aug 28 2004

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Re: Aggression

well all i can say is we had a simmerler experiance, bonnie being bonnie, met up with another bitch who was also a red,the red bitch decided to fight with eddie bonnie noticed what was going on and intervined i felt sorry for this red bitch because my lot are in a pack now, but the others kept there distance knowing that bonnie is the alpha female of the pack she did have a go at the red bitch and the red bitch went in to submissive mode, now they get on like a house on fire.
all i can say to you is allow your dogs to socialise cos they are social animals what you did was right by pulling them apart at least your aware of other dogs around you and just gradually introduce yours to them hope that helps

kay xx:wave:

  
gingerboy
22:01:55 Tue
Aug 31 2004

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Hi Kay - thanks for the reply:spinsmile:. I take your point and whilst molly used to be great with other dogs I have had little or no joy since the above incident.

A couple of good friends both with larger and more robust boxers than Molly offered to try and get her to socialise with their dogs. I'm afraid to say she just goes for them and is relentless even when we try to get her to interact in games of fetch - as soon as the other dogs come close she goes in to dominant mode.

If I were to compare her to a human fighter it would be Bruce Lee - whilst she lacks the restraint of a martial arts expert for her size she is amazingly quick, powerful and knows exactly how to bring far larger dogs down to the ground. Not good but thats the way she is, needless to say when out with my friends and their respective dogs we have to alternate who is kept on the lead.

We had an incident in our local park with 2 dobermanns that attacked Tash (sorry I'd forgotten about this one) - Molly was away in the woods saw what was going on and went loopy. She charged at one head first at full speed - winded it and knocked it off it's feet and then quickly proceeded to get a hold of the other one by the throat and twist it over on to its back where she kept it until again I managed to get her off.

Sounds bad but Tash got a real hammering and the other owner admitted that his dogs were not very good with other dogs. Obviously why we were both walking them in the pitch black at about 10.30pm mid winter - we both presumed we would not bump into anyone else. Again I was fortunate that he was understanding and obviously up against the same problem.

The only positive meeting I have had is with another friend who owns an Irish Wolf Hound - 9 1/2 stone and very large and fast. Molly could not catch it so after about an hour accepted it and left it alone so long as we were throwing stones in the sea. Unfortunately my friend lives near my parents in Morecambe which is a 3 hour drive away.

I'm glad to say that as far as the Dodermann incident is concerned I occasionally see the chap with the Dobermanns and we exchange small talk and their are no hard feelings and no serious damage to his dogs - Tash was once again worst off but it hasn't stopped her from going up to dogs she does not know and wanting to play with them.

I'll just have to keep my eyes peeled and hope for the best!!!

Thanks, Paul

ps - anybody want to volunteer their dog, purely in the name of socialisation?? Probably not but it was worth asking.:wink:


  
Snow_King
12:36:08 Tue
Sep 7 2004

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Re: Aggression

Hi Paul

My little white boy used to think he could takle the world and used to try and take on dogs twice his size!

I like you was constantly cautious, which made walking him slightly stressful and not at all relaxing.

About a year ago, I posted a similar pleah for help on another dog site and someone reccommended an APDT registered trainer Called Pam Smith. Pam specialises in Agressive and sumbissive dogs. She has been brilliant with Jake, and he enjoys it so much that we still go to her advanced classes - just so he can learn tricks and practise his doggy etiquette!

I love my little white boy, always have and always will, but I can not tell you how much more pleasurable walking him is since I contacted her. :jump:

The classes are in southampton, but people travel from fa afield - Bath and London as she is so good. If you are interesed let me know and I will pass you here details.

Wendy
x

  
gingerboy
11:51:59 Thu
Sep 9 2004

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Re: Aggression

Hi Wendy - if you can forward the details that would be great - even if it's only to speak with her and see if she can recommend an approved specialist near by.

Many thanks and I hope to hear from you soon.

Paul

  
Guest [UnRegist
18:41:56 Tue
Sep 21 2004

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Re: Aggression

i would suggest Jan Fennell, or one of her trainees who might live closer to you. from what it seems, she has taken on the job of looking after poor tash, and amichien bonding (jan's technique) will help to let her enjoy her walks again and start making friends. its totally non-confrontational (as i read you dont like being violent with dogs, and rightly so!) and is easy to apply
which part of the country are you in? i might be able to get hold of someone close to you if you like :spinsmile:

  
gingerboy
07:09:11 Thu
Sep 23 2004

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Hi

Thanks for the reply - I live in South Wales near to Newport / Cardiff, Bristol is about 40 mins drive and Bath about 50 mins, if you have any contacts it would be a great help.

Thanks for the reply and hope to hear from you soon.

Paul

  
Insomnia
11:21:00 Thu
Sep 23 2004

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Re: Aggression

hi paul!
i have contacted all associates of jan fennell and as soon as someone gets back to me, i will let you know. this method has helped dogs with aggression far worse than molly, and they have been able to enjoy all the off lead romps they want!, so dont worry.
something to bear in mind though, this method is not a quick fix or magic wand, but it does yeild results given patience and time.

  
Insomnia
15:34:37 Thu
Sep 23 2004

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Re: Aggression

before having someone come out and help you, it might be worth looking into buying her first book, you can get it for jusy £3.99 on amazon...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006532365/qid=1095953336/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-4230059-3096648
let me know what you think of it if you get it! and after reading it, if you think you'll need help implementing the method, by all means one of us can come out there...



---
For the love of the one you own
You rent your soul
For the love of him who never questions
You sacrifice all
For one delve into those warm, forgiving eyes
You’d do anything
For the love of a dog
____________________________

My Website
 
 
gingerboy
16:22:45 Thu
Sep 23 2004

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Re: Aggression

I wasn't expecting you to reply that quickly - great. Thanks for the link I will get a copy ordered a.s.a.p.

I will see what is involved and make a real effort to follow it rigidly but if I am struggling I will give you a shout and see if we can arrange some training on the appropriate techniques.

Can't thank you enough for the info and your swift response.

Paul:roundnround:

  
Insomnia
16:33:13 Thu
Sep 23 2004

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Re: Aggression

your welcome paul,
after all, the quicker a distressing problem like this can be sorted out, the better for everyone right? especially molly.
if you want to email me anytime, it's insomniaticdnd@yahoo.com
i hope it all works well for you! but yes, if you are having problems, we can help you out, sure thing
melanie



---
For the love of the one you own
You rent your soul
For the love of him who never questions
You sacrifice all
For one delve into those warm, forgiving eyes
You’d do anything
For the love of a dog
____________________________

My Website
 
 
gingerboy
22:11:56 Thu
Sep 23 2004

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Re: Aggression

Hi Melanie

Thanks once again. We are going on holiday for a week so hopefully the book will be with us by the time we get back.

I will drop you a line once we have started working through it with Molly and let you know how we get on.

Thanks, Paul:roundnround:

  
Insomnia
10:02:48 Fri
Sep 24 2004

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Re: Aggression

have a great holiday!
yeah, it'd be great to hear how your getting on!
sorry, i gave you the wrong address...the best one to get me on is melanie@caninecommunication.co.uk
enjoy the break!
melanie



---
For the love of the one you own
You rent your soul
For the love of him who never questions
You sacrifice all
For one delve into those warm, forgiving eyes
You’d do anything
For the love of a dog
____________________________

My Website
 
 

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