Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
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dredger
22:29:37 Tue
Feb 17 2009
Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey kaveman,

Sorry trouble with the computer, "again ", :confused:, seems to work in the mornings, not in the afternoon, ??.

next drawing, please note, the drawing on the right is similar to my method, and drawing the left is i suggest very possible, and ideal for working well away from the flow,

,
testing,

dredger
02:12:40 Wed
Feb 18 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok, please note drawing on right side,

1, is the hand stacked canvas lined ROCK dam across the main flow to raise the level in the dam , so that it then flows back into the work hole, ( causing the level to rise, meaning that i did "not have to dirty the main flow by digging with the excavator into the main flow, ), ( a point I pointed out to all the inspectors, actually one many precautions , which resulted in factually answering the question, " does your operation dirty up or silt the main flow, ANSWER being NO, )
2, is the flow into the work hole, Please note I forgot to draw a small work hole outlet,
3, is 2x13hp Honda's,
4, is high pressure lay flat hoses to the jet,
5, is filtration pond,
6, is clean filter water reentering the main flow, ( please note, that when starting up the dredge in the morning, the filtration trench had mostly drained out, ( the foot valve pond area, was deeper and always had enough water to start the pumps, and basically pumped enough water or primed the silt pond/ foot valve area,, enough to get to dredging, only after a few hours dredging will the pond fill enough to stat filtering out through the dam / filter walls, ( so don't expect to see clean flowing water for a few hours, ).
7, was about the wall on which the sluice sits, and water "not " seeping between the work hole and the silt pond behind, if your situation is at anytime similar, and your work hole is obviously leaking "out" , some canvas can be used to stop the leaking, ( if you loose the canvas ,it will breakdown and not a prob for the enviro, ), so I don't suggest plastic sheeting, , )

Left drawing is an idea on recycling clean filter water by pumping immediatly back into work hole,

Opps,sorry ,back asap.

overtheedge
16:53:06 Wed
Feb 18 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Another material I have contemplated for lining a dike is newspaper. A couple or three layers (pages) should be enough and its readily biodegradeable.

dredger
06:26:08 Thu
Feb 19 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey overtheedge,

Interesting idea mate, when you back filling the "soaked"paper would be pulverized, gone, makes sense, but the Greene's down under would complain I would be littering,:confused:, however I do know reused canvas stop them in their tracks, :smile:.
Ps, Great Post , "on the gold/platinum hostility, again ",

Ok 1, is a water source,say a creek - +100 yds away, and a water pump big enough to prime the work/silt pond,
2,, is high pressure lay flat hose,
2, is the wormhole,
3 dredge, and area,
4, is motors pumps,
5, is silt pond,
6,clean water being filtered from the silt pond, dam/filter wall,
6 1/2,( in pink ) is single bucket width trench, up to the work hole, please note green line is green canvas clean water pond sealer/liner,

sorry more computer probs.



dredger
23:38:05 Thu
Feb 19 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
7, is the work hole wall, I suggest the difference between the work hole "water level" , and the filtered clean water level, could or should be around 6" to 8" , so to "transfer or pump" the required amount water into the workhole, either an eductor jet, " similar size to the eductor jet being used to remove or suck the water /gravel out of the work hole" ,
8, is high pressure hose, which is an extra motor/pump/fuel, point of interest here, is it may require a much larger motor/pump to pump enough water to run a dredge " if you are pumping up hill over long distances, and there is also a possible disadvantages with water or that much water returning to the stream or river, ect , so I suggest a filter/recycling concept would be cheaper in the long run,
9, is eductor jet,
10 is water level in work hole, as opposed to water level in clean water pond, roughly,

I trying to get some pics up, work/rehabed sites,

dredger
01:06:01 Fri
Feb 20 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.


Please note, the tree in the centre of the river bed, Marked at the letter ( I ) is the reference point shown in pics previously,

testing,

dredger
01:24:52 Fri
Feb 20 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
last pic shows aerial pic of rehabilitated excavator dredge site, discolouration of work area can be seen, ( usually i will drop a small fir hose pump in, and hose the silt and dirt off, then the area of disturbance can not be seen at all, ), the road on the gravel bed along the bank, stays, as it is the farmers,

J, is another excavator /dredge site,

Next pic is another site just down river , in the hole, with no gold,
,
Just for fun,
,
Same hole ,and the picture is taken from the opposite bank,
This aerial pic shown the site, has been rehabed, and there has been " no significant environmental damage " . site was open ONE day,
.

kaveman
22:44:59 Sat
Feb 21 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Finally getting a chance to catch up,.......

Our operation is going to need to be more like the drawing on the left(first set). For one, we'd be shot if we attempted to dam the river, even if it was physically possible, which it isn't. No matter. Pumping will solve that problem and also let us work further away from the river. We may need to work as far as 700' from our water source. For this year, we'll be restricted to 300' due to available hose. I'd also like to avoid having the water running back to the river, even if perfectly filtered. We have plenty of room to just let it seep into the bar.

Taking an idea from the left diagram, if we find that water doesn't seep quickly enough through the dikes to maintain the pond level we can just link the ponds with a tailings-filled trench to allow easy progress of the filtered water. Looks easy enough to construct with a few minutes on the hoe.

I think the most important point for us will be to remain a fair distance from the river so as to not incur the wrath of the local authorities. Once we get a feel for what we're doing we can get some acceptable plan in place to work the edges. We're just digging to see what we can see for now. Below are a few aerial shots of the bar. In total, maybe 35ac between river and road. As you can see, it's currently located on the outside bend of the river, but it was once the inside bend before the river was turned from its course. Still not sure if that is a man-made feature, but I suspect it is. Angles are too sharp and the flow doesn't seem natural, but our patent paperwork from the 1870's shows the river in its current location, so if it was laid over towards the north, it had to have been done between 1860 and 1874 and that seems to be quite an accomplishment for that early period. Working on the pics,.......

kaveman
23:07:34 Sat
Feb 21 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
OK, close view, the river is flowing from the upper right to center left. Our ground is the large bar at lower center. USFS land all around except for the property downstream. For scale, the area of the pic is about 3/4 mile wide by 1/2 mile tall.

In this pic, #1 is the general area we intend to test first. #2 is an area of steep grade and blown bedrock where practically no material drops out. #3 is the crescent of vegetation that defines the old river bed.



kaveman
23:14:01 Sat
Feb 21 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
To make it a little more interesting, we'll zoom out a bit and see what's just upstream from this bar,....



The area circled in the upper right is an old hydraulic mine on some ancient river gravels that covers 25-30ac. It was worked from the late 1850's through 1910 or so and worked three different levels, originally as a drift mine and later as a hydraulic. Sluices with wood block riffles emptied directly into that fast flowing bedrock area. The bend of the river above the old mine has not historically produced very much gold. We spent a summer punching around up there with an 8" dredge and never found enough to bother with a cleanup. I've never heard of anyone else doing much better.

But below that old mine the river has been VERY rich, with hundreds of ounces recovered by dredgers. I've personally seen a hundred ounces from the meager material in the blown bedrock of the rapids, with reports of hundreds(if not thousands)more coming from the river section fronting the bar. Whenever there's a good sized flood, that bar is submerged and the river is bound to be carrying gold up into the outer channel and across the bar.

Question is,............who's been there and when? I haven't been able to uncover any records of production for the property. It's hardly mentioned at all as far as mining, although it does pop up in a search as a 'place'. It's listed as a drift mine in the records, but the only way it could have been drifted would have been vertically with scattered shafts going down to bedrock and tunnels spidering out.

dredger
23:40:11 Tue
Feb 24 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Question is,............who's been there and when? I haven't been able to uncover any records of production for the property. It's hardly mentioned at all as far as mining, although it does pop up in a search as a 'place'. It's listed as a drift mine in the records, but the only way it could have been drifted would have been vertically with scattered shafts going down to bedrock and tunnels spidering out.

To answer to that question, I would like to suggest some points of interest,
This type of drift mining method, shafts going down to bedrock and tunnels spidering out.
was exceptionally successful at cleaning the crevices, in areas that have " extremely dry periods " . the point being ,if there has been too much water flow, the old timers would have left it, so I suggest if your looking for rich crevices, there would not be much hope of finding a really rich one ,( but ya never know ) if the flow does or has at some time dried out in the ?? last 200 years,ya in trouble,
Usually this type of operation, Multiple shafts, were usually dug by a gang of ? inexperienced diggers payed by a boss, and the boss or the bosses "boys " (well paid experienced miners ) actually did the final dig on bedrock level with a candle or kero lamp, and got the gold and or the best cons on and just above bedrock and gave it to the boss, so the "diggers "did not care if there was gold or not, they were payed by the holes, ( and watched to see they did not "pocket "any gold,
We do know that metal detector guys find nice nuggets on the mounds discarded by old miners, by "inexperience or mistakes " ,
An old miner mate,Peter ( god bless his soul for being such a kind man that he was for our 25 years ), told me or actually placed me back in time some 80 years when he remember at the age of about 7, he would walk along holding on the side of a wheel barrow, weaving in and out of these vertical drift mine piles of dirt, ( in Auss )( he was pointing out to " me " a very large rich area, bit smaller then yours, ), he also told me the old ( poor looking miner ) wheeling the barrow would pay a dwt of gold for a wheel barrow full of dirt from any pile he liked, he ( Peter )was also showed that because the old miner was very good at picking his dirt, the old miner usually got over 4 dwts, a clear 3 and over dwt per wheel barrow, at 4-6 barrows through a old rocker a day was good gold for old poor looking miner, who keep his mouth shut,
Peter also told me that as he grow up on the gold fields with his father , ( 1930 ) who was also a good miner, Peter had also done the wheelbarrow method and noted that good gold was also found in layers well above the bedrock, layers which vertical drift miners where not concerned with, because they were heading straight down to bedrock ,
Another point is that most vertical drift mining (above river flow ) was followed by Hyd mining, which also resulted ( usually ) in good gold,

So, my opinion on my area, there is still good gold to be found in the lower levels of ancient gravel beds above the already ( vertical drifted ) cleaned bedrock, provided I can process quickly, especially in my area.

To quickly locate and or pin point the drift shafts in my area,( or any area that can be drained ) I would first drain the area with a trench, ( or pump, ), and lower the water level around the shafts,( " without effecting or lowering the flow level in the main river stream,) then using the excavator I would drag back or scrap off, ?? !0' to 20' ??. the overburden left by floods ( overburden would have varying depths according to strength of the biggest previous floods and how much of the upper shaft has been eroded off the top of the shaft, ) excavate to show the lower levels of the shaft holes, ( which should or could also contain or exposed "shaft timbers ") which are not a problem to the excavator, but are a prob to processing units,

Also I would suggest that the middle concentration of the exposed shafts, would show and follow the deepest gullies eroded into the bedrock and or the main run of gold ""deposited "" during the/that " time period " that the river eroded away or ( down ) from the upper bench, ( old hyd mine pictured) or deposited shortly after.

Sorry gotta run, back asap,

Ps, please note, I am not suggesting you should uncover the hole area, I am only suggesting a way to search for vertical drifts mining activity under overburden, other then mine records/ ect.

Another point, is if you just start digging and dredging as " you plan" , you will see and find shaft timbers/broken pick tips ect, and see / find already broken up crevices,

dredger.:confused:


kaveman
07:08:43 Wed
Mar 4 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
from dredger,........so I can save this whole,.......

"So, my opinion on my area, there is still good gold to be found in the lower levels of ancient gravel beds above the already ( vertical drifted ) cleaned bedrock, provided I can process quickly, especially in my area.

To quickly locate and or pin point the drift shafts in my area,( or any area that can be drained ) I would first drain the area with a trench, ( or pump, ), and lower the water level around the shafts,( " without effecting or lowering the flow level in the main river stream,) then using the excavator I would drag back or scrap off, ?? !0' to 20' ??. the overburden left by floods ( overburden would have varying depths according to strength of the biggest previous floods and how much of the upper shaft has been eroded off the top of the shaft, ) excavate to show the lower levels of the shaft holes, ( which should or could also contain or exposed "shaft timbers ") which are not a problem to the excavator, but are a prob to processing units,

Also I would suggest that the middle concentration of the exposed shafts, would show and follow the deepest gullies eroded into the bedrock and or the main run of gold ""deposited "" during the/that " time period " that the river eroded away or ( down ) from the upper bench, ( old hyd mine pictured) or deposited shortly after.

Sorry gotta run, back asap,

Ps, please note, I am not suggesting you should uncover the hole area, I am only suggesting a way to search for vertical drifts mining activity under overburden, other then mine records/ ect.

Another point, is if you just start digging and dredging as " you plan" , you will see and find shaft timbers/broken pick tips ect, and see / find already broken up crevices,

dredger.



dredger
01:36:31 Thu
Mar 5 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
No worries Kaveman, I still have a lot suggestions and a few drawings for anyone wanting to try dredging with a excavator, , think about it, one dredger, and a machine that easily digs like a hundred miners, :devil:.

Also can you tell me if that is a homestead or old or still active mine at the bottom left corner please, ??.

dredger,

kaveman
03:16:41 Thu
Mar 5 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Just a vacation home,..........single wide trailer on about three acres that I'd like to buy. Been vacant for several years. No sign of mining. That's my only neighbor and I'd like to have the land as a buffer to the next place downriver.

dredger
06:03:10 Thu
Mar 5 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Three acres, good luck on that, nice spot for a trailor or definatly moveable accomadation, I am thinking ( depending on the fall behind where you want to work, ) might be able to run a drainage pipe under there to drain your work areas, ??.

Maybe he might rent it, ??.

dredger
23:24:46 Mon
Mar 16 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey Kaveman.

I am working on DRAWINGS of that S/B/B BUCKET concept , I have not forgot you, just bussy as, dredger.

kaveman
00:25:03 Tue
Mar 17 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Thanks dredger,................I'm still following all the threads. Itching to get out there for the diggin'. We'll be starting in early April and will be off-line most of the time until later in May. Hopefully I'll have some stories to tell and pics to show. Wish us luck.

dredger
06:18:13 Tue
Mar 17 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok, early April to may, sounds good, is there a flow or flooding problem, actually i google earth the Klamath, and those pics show alot more water in the river, ??.

I was thinking of suggesting we discuss some lead up points of interest for the new guys who want or are thinking about dredging with a excavator, in the near future, as well as methods,ect,
We can have a part 3,4,5, ect, ??.
For my Machines to do my dredging, I had a caravan which attached ( under canvas ) to a mobile workshop,( welder/ gas cutting, tools , spare parts, i could park and work on the excavator under canvas, out of the weather, susy long wheelbase ute, trailer for motors/ pumps, trailer for sluice, ( heavy duty, so i could move the bucket, /blade/ sucker nozzle, ) form site to site, or the excavator could carry them, 20 ton excavator, 8" dredge, and a good car to do the shopping in, me the wife and baby, occasionally, mates, brothers,
I hope we can run through different aspects of dredging with an excavator , perhaps help some new guys make up their mind, ??. ,
To start I suggest operating a excavator is not that hard, if you drive a car, you can learn to drive a machine, I really recommend that anyone who has never ever driven an excavator first contact their local training centre, get the paper work info and take it home and study it, few weeks to a few months, how ever long it takes for you to learn the paper work, then sign up for 3 days of instruction, using their machines,they will train and licence you to work on building site, as well as all safety aspects, so digging on a river is a piece of cake,
Excavators are the simplest of machines in that there is a diesel engine, hyd oil pump, control valves ,and a few hyd motors, and a few rams, ( no gear boxes, clutches, diffs, )

Gotta run, kaveman, please post anything you can think of , and of cause any pics youk might have,
Anyone got any questions, please don't hesitate.
dredger.



kaveman
04:04:58 Wed
Mar 18 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
I'm still in the 'splashing around' phase and really don't know enough about it yet to add anything. I'm sure you're right about the excavator,.............I expect to be pretty handy with it after a few days of practice.

No flooding worries this time of year. I wouldn't want to leave equipment out on the bar over the winter, but most of the historic floods have happened within a week or two of Jan1. By now the river is generally dropping and it's not difficult to predict where it's going because we know what the snow levels are like in the mountains and there are several dams upriver that I can call daily for release info and reservoir levels.



dredger
06:27:36 Wed
Mar 18 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
hey Kaveman,

No mate, you are adding already, you said " "No flooding worries this time of year. I wouldn't want to leave equipment out on the bar over the winter, but most of the historic floods have happened within a week or two of Jan1."
You have to be ready to move or loose, at all times, walking the excavator to safer area takes no time at all, and local flash flooding is always on the cards, I left my dredge for 3 days, and had to risk my life to get it back,
you said,",.............I expect to be pretty handy with it after a few days of practice. ",
I suggest there are 3 points of interest here, 1, don't under any circumstances let anyone work or watch you dig, from within or under the reach of the machine, 2, being " if you can drain and refill the hole you are digging, you will be able to see the bedrock as you dig the hole, and the big rocks, 3, if you cannot or do not drain the hole easily, ( other method ), I suggest you have the line of thought where you remember where the bedrock/big rocks is and at which depth, in dirty water you cannot see, so I sort of have a 3D picture / map in my head of each hole, this will save the machine from to much knocking around and damage,also mental mapping is a necessity when dredging with a cutter head dredge,
Good idea there, I can call daily for release info and reservoir levels, :smile:
Also, would you like to discuss some spots in your pics where you might find some easy gold, ??.
Also, do you have a good knowledge of excavator repairers / parts for your machine, in your area,
Also, as you might know, if the engine stops in most excavators, the tracks are automatically locked, and you cannot move the machine,if your machine is similar to mine a small petrol / hyd pump can be used to release the brakes, and if the machine is fairly level, you can winch/ or tow the excavator with a good 4x4 or dozer / tractor, even with the bucket and arms dragging behind, and maneuver it by braking on one track,
There is a lot of little tricks for when or if you blow a ram hose or have a leaky rotary valve, or break a track drive, which I hope to cover asap,
One thing that will scare the heck out you is when ya excavator makes alot of loud metal banging noises then stops, right in the wrong place, this is usually a blocked fuel filter, very scary until you figure it out, so I suggest you go through your fuel filter system right from the tank to the fuel pump, get to know it thoroughly, and keep it clean, and all threads free so they do not snap bolts when your in a hurry,
All maintenance is like insurance to ensure you don't break down,
I would also suggest or say in my opinion that the excavator is the best machine to repair / breakdown on site compared to loaders or bulldozers, easy quick repairs with minimum time down, if you have done your home work, and are ready,

Sorry gotta run,


kaveman
14:13:21 Wed
Mar 18 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
In our particular situation, we have the advantage of the three controlled dams upriver to prevent flooding. The Klamath River is somewhat unique,........the upper reaches flow through rolling agricultural land and only the lower 100 miles or so flow through the mountains into the sea. Most of the drainage area lies above the dams(although localized heavy rains between our area and the dam can bring the levels up quickly, especially early in the spring if there's a good snowpack in the hills). We're also working relatively far away from the water and the valley is fairly wide in our section which reduces the flood hazard, but we'll still always be concerned with it. A dam break or a serious eruption of Mt Shasta would take out our entire operation, but it would also take out the road and every bridge and town along the lower Klamath, so it wouldn't matter too much.

Your first point is way up front in my mind. Can't find it now, but somewhere on one of the excavator forums there was a link to a video where the cameraman was right on the edge of the pit filming an excavator digging a hole. Evidently he was within an inch or two of the swing radius. When that bucket goes winging by it really gets your attention. I realize that my mining plan has the bucket swinging in a complete 360 degree circle for nearly every load, so I am concerned with keeping people outside of the arc. Don't see how I can get anything done if that point isn't addressed. I do believe the holes will remain dry while digging. We expect to have to pump water into them to dredge the bedrock.

I now have service manuals, operator manuals, and parts manuals for the excavator. I'm also somewhat familiar with hydraulic systems. I hope to be working on the machine within the next couple of weeks doing the normal servicing and filter changes. It's been sitting on the property for almost a year and that hasn't been done yet. Only have 3-4 hours run time on it in that year, so it's still pretty new to me. My only advantage is that I have a neighbor who spent 30yrs working on/with these things, and he's very interested in the operation and willing to help.

kaveman
14:58:46 Wed
Mar 18 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
OH goody,......map dowsing!

OK, here's a reworked pic with some info I know(or at least THINK I know),.....




Yellow outlines my bar. I can't work outside of that. They won't let me dig up the highway. I also can't touch the water. The green arc and #3 is the old channel and will probably have some standing water in it early in the spring, so I want to stay out of that. There's also an unsubstantiated rumor that a small bucketline dredge once followed that line.

#1 is the general area we plan to work this spring. It's at the head of the bar and the ground is fairly shallow to bedrock,..........5-10'. Down at area #4 it's more like 25-30' to bedrock and probably 15-20' above the river. #2 is the rapids and mostly blown bedrock. The brown lines on the northern bars are areas that are consistently productive to highbankers. The white lines are the same, except I've actually seen some of those results and they tend to be nuggety. Purple lines were very good dredging with lots of gold. Actually, all the river from #2 downstream has been very rich, but I've seen or dredged the purple myself. The red circle at the point of the bar is naturally very low above the river and clear of material except for a covering of flat boulders. I'd like to see what's under them, but not just yet.

BTW, I'm keeping the posts short so they don't get cut off. I hate that.

dredger
06:21:12 Fri
Mar 20 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
OH goody,......map dowsing! I agree, :smile:.
I am working on a few of your pics, maybe get some points of interest across a bit clearer for the new guys,
Your post was short, and sweet, lots of good homework there, and good info.
Actually, i have been working on some Google Earth pics of my area, showing the sources and where I found gold,I am also trying to show topographic maps, I thought i would start a new thread ( Dredging W / excavator Part 3, ??. showing my area, one of the points of interest will be why, sometimes gold does " not " run on the inside of the bend, i thought the new guys would be interested, ,

Anyway , I better get to the pics, back asap,

It will be interesting to hear your ideas where the vertical shafts may have been or be located, ??, you wrote,
#1 is the general area we plan to work this spring. It's at the head of the bar and the ground is fairly shallow to bedrock,.......
ops, sorry gotta run, dredger,




dredger
02:29:44 Sun
Mar 22 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry been busy as,

Kaveman, sorry , I have a few points for the new guys thinking about trying dredging with a excavator, I have to get out of my head, quick as,

Ok, new guys who has never ever thought about having an excavator , may think that a excavator may be too hard to operate, especially blind, under dirty water, ( down 30 feet deep ) and can he make good money side lining his operator skills, as a machine operator for hire with or without his excavator,
1, working in dirty water, ??.
2, making good money as a machine operator, ??.
So, 1, simple exercise to see if a new guy could operate, in dirty water, which is all about ( in my opinion ) keeping ya "eyes focused "" on the excavator bucket, ( angle /position ) practice ( when you can see the B) , and keeping ya " minds eye focused " on the excavator bucket ( when you can not see the B ),
To show how easy this is,( with practice ) try this exercise, get a 20 litre plastic bucket, and 12 fist size rocks, and make your self comfortable, reaching into the bucket, ,place 3 rocks on top of each other on the bottom of the bucket, then other 3 until you have 4 piles of rocks, any sequence you like, then move you hand around the bucket base using your eyes and hand," without knowing the rocks over, practice this for a few minutes, then add 20 or so litres of very dirty water so that you cannot see the rocks, , I suggest you will still be able to move your hand or hands around and over the rocks fairly quickly, ( using your minds eye ) without knocking over the rocks,with a little practice," no problems " you pass the dredgers hand in the bucket exercise and can be an operator, :smile:, ( if you do not knock too many rocks over, after, some practice,),
My point here is I suggest being a good operator is about eyes and focus on the bucket, without consciously thinking about which hand to use on which control, I suggest complete focus is on the eye /bucket, or minds eye/ bucket,
2, is the reason for the blar blar above is if the new guy also wants to work for a earth moving company, ( to make good money of of mining, or more to the point, " out of mining season, ) who specializes in Plant hire and plant operators will have excavators with a similar 2 control stick controls, BUT the functions of the 2 sticks vary between machine manufactures, and that can be a problem, I suggest again, that having the focus on the eyes on the bucket line of thought , enables most operators can adapt to the unfamiliar controls within minutes, " with some practice ", the problem becomes a problem when trying to remember , ( not feel ), which controls do what, on which machine, and I get a brain "block ", it is very easy to do,( allot of operators can easily do, ) just focus on the seeing the bucket, and letting ya subconscious mind work out the controls, and you will be fine, it is not that hard,

better post ,





dredger
04:02:29 Sun
Mar 22 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Back in the thread, for the new guys, I mentioned mentioned blowing a hose and or a track drive in the Middle of the river,
Ok, blowing a bucket hose or dipper arm hose is not really a problem, I suggest caps and or replacement hoses be keep in the spares box for the machine, EPA are always concerned about accidents, and to oil dripping from the machine around the motor, hyd pump, control valves, ect, I use or place small dishes to catch leaking oil inside on the floor any compartments,
Blowing a ram seal is a bigger job, but can be easily fixed, just more time,
Breaking planetary gears in a track final drive can be made even worse by trying to move the machine, ( the broken bits grind into the rest of the drive and do even more damage, ) to move the machine to a better place to work on it can be done by using the arm/bucket / slew and the working track drive, done slowly with care, a broken track drive can be nursed for long distances,
I suggest " spare " and correct seals should also be on hand for the " Rotary Valve " that is located under the base mounting/pivot point of the boom, which enables the upper carriage to slew 360 /720 ect degrees on the under carriage, and still supply hyd oil to the track drives, ( it not much of a seal kit, to keep as a spare, ) also can be repaired quickly, provided the bulk of the hyd oil is drained from the hyd oil tank, quickly, again a suitable size tub/ tray can be placed/ hung/ tied in under the leaking rotary valve, to move it ,
Sorry gotta run,

Geo_Jim
23:00:56 Tue
Mar 24 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
When you say hydraulic elevators, I think of the following figures. This is in keeping with my historic mining methods I copied these out of "Hydraulic Mining" by C.C. Longridge of the Mining Journal 1910.




I think this second figure is a scene from around Nome.:smile:
Geo Jim

dredger
01:46:53 Wed
Mar 25 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey Jim,

Interesting post, I wonder if you have heard of a book , " Metallurgy of gold, Essler 1896, ?. very interesting story, and illustrations as yours,

Please Keep up the good work on your other thread,
Historic Mining Methods, it sort of lets a miner know about his roots in history, :smile:

dredger,

dredger
03:44:42 Wed
Mar 25 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
To move it , I mean to move the excavator,
So there is heaps more little tips for the new guy who wants to dredge w/ excavator, coming soon,

Map dowsing,excellent info kaveman, where the gold runs "now" and the big question , where it ran before,??. and where will the evidence of vertical shaftings , ( which is relivant because the timber used in the shafts could damage or disrupt the recovery unit, ),

Next pic , shows where gold can be found / runs on both inside and outside the bend,

testing,

dredger
06:33:11 Wed
Mar 25 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
New Guys please note,

No, 1 is the blue arrows pointing to where gold has built up on and in the gravels on the inside bend, Kaveman says,
But below that old mine the river has been VERY rich, with hundreds of ounces recovered by dredgers. I've personally seen a hundred ounces from the meager material in the blown bedrock of the rapids, with reports of hundreds(if not thousands)more coming from the river section fronting the bar. Whenever there's a good sized flood, that bar is submerged and the river is bound to be carrying gold up into the outer channel and across the bar.
No 2, is the gold run " originating " from travelling on the inside of the previous bend,( under old mine site,)
No 3, is the protruding bedrock causing the gold run to change sides of the river,
Next is some dowsing, and some suggestion on where I could manipulate the flow so as to be able to work /dredge gravels in a similar situation as Kavemans , please note I will show where I have been wrong on previous occasions in the "dredging w/excavator Part 3", hopefully coming soon,
Please note, no4,purple line, I suggest using tree trunks and canvas, a small removable dam be built to control and stop as much water flow as possible down the green strip where a creek also runs, Also the dam would allow me to direct as much flow as needed to operate a dredge,
No 5, is is the possible position of the vertical shaft activity previously discussed,
No 6, please note the holes dug are further apart at the rear of the gravel bed, i suggest these are only exploratory holes, with little gold,
No 7, in purple ( and hard to see ), ( sorry ), indicates holes /shafts are closer together , I suggest the reason being they were deeper shafts, ( new Please note, ), from my information , a lot of this type of river gravels were pretty unstable, so the old miners would place the shafts close together, and if there was a cave in a miners shaft, they could dig to the next closest shaft, and or be dug out by other miners more quickly, this would also indicate the likely place were gold travelled, at a time when the area No3, did not force the gold to area No1, ( thousands of years ago, ) I suggest at that time the bedrock was eroded to have perhaps 6' by 6' channels or channel running down stream,direction indicated by the purple blotches ( in the shape of an arrow, ),

Sorry gotta run,


kaveman
14:34:48 Wed
Mar 25 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
That's pretty good cipherin' dredger. Several parts of what you've spelled out strike me as being highly probable. #3 is an interesting thought,............more later. 5, 6, and 7 look very reasonable, too, as does your description of the material. Maybe it firms up as you go deeper and further back in time, but the upper levels are pretty unstable, loose and sandy. Timbering in old shafts won't be a problem for now, but maybe later if we bring in larger and more automated equipment.

As for #4, that may not be doable due to the size of the river and the fact that any work in/near the river will bring unwanted attention, but it probably isn't necessary anyway. There really isn't a creek on the green line,...........just a low lying damp area during the wetter months. It's got river in it during flood years, but most years it's just a few pools in early spring and most of that water is probably seepage off the hillside to the south, although there is a small seasonal creek that flows in from the south at about the midpoint of the bar. It quickly goes underground and doesn't cross the surface of the bar. Here are a couple more pics,................

kaveman
14:53:29 Wed
Mar 25 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Here are a couple of pics from the same general area showing the river at different stages. Pics are shot from just south of the old hydraulic workings(about spot 2)looking SW at the head of my bar. First pic is what you'd call normal winter flow. My bar is the ground in shadow and swinging out of the pic to the right.



Next pic is pretty much the same shot/angle during one of the more recent floods. Water rises to this level only once every ten years or so. This pic is 2006 and the water has already dropped 5' or so. 1997 was a little higher. 1964 was probably 10-15' higher still. The upper 1/4 of the bar and the old channel are submerged during even the smaller floods. 1964 probably covered all but a very small part of the bar.




My theory is that a large portion of the gold found in the river originated from the hydraulic mine above. Those operations commonly recovered 500-1000oz per acre of worked ground and were nowhere near 50% efficient, so an equal or greater amount of mostly fine gold was discharged into the river along with the tailings. That mine covered 25-30ac and discharged the tailings into the river on the outside of the bend. I imagine that the gold has mostly moved only during the major floods over the last 100yrs and the flooding river keeps it up along the outer bank as it works its way downriver. Whether that spur of bedrock can send the goldline across all that current or not, I do not know. The heavy gold line on the riverbank at the head of the bar is encouraging tho.

*Note* I think Jim Alaska gets credit for this second pic. Thought it was mine, but the pics I find in my folder show the river down a bit further. I think the road was still closed in spots when the above pic was taken and I didn't get there until a week or so later. I can just feel the boulders shaking the ground when I look at this shot!

dredger
01:30:18 Thu
Mar 26 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey kaveman,
Another excellent post with great info,/ theory, great pics too,
( Note for new guys, ), A Lot of rivers have records of river flows, ( my river charts/records goes back to the 1950's), I suggest those records can give you some ideas on gold movement,
You wrote,
Whether that spur of bedrock can send the goldline across all that current or not, I do not know. The heavy gold line on the riverbank at the head of the bar is encouraging tho.
I can not wait to hear what was really under the gravels, :devil:. what the channels or just open holes in the bedrock, might be there, you will soon get used to a sight that always gave me thrill, and that is the last look into the dredge hole you just dredged, you will know every " of bedrock, and the contours of sometimes deep channels worn smoth in the hard bedrock, or mulitpul crevices, :smile:
I agree with " Your theory " on the source of gold coming from the old mine, ( and their 50% recovery ), but do you have any info on old mines/ hard rock mining,??. up river, or knowledge of a "spent source" further up river, ???. I always like to look at the big picture, as you will see in my next thread , "dredging w/excavator part three , I have several google earth pics of my area, showing gold sources,
great info kaveman, you really like doing your home work, :smile:
Back soon,

dredger
03:49:53 Thu
Mar 26 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Opps, i wondered where your post went, I was beginning to think we were mind reading, haha, :confused: anyway i found it ,
You said, " Maybe it firms up as you go deeper and further back in time, but the upper levels are pretty unstable, loose and sandy " after seeing your pics, I would suggest there most probably not much left of the old shafts, except in the really hard pack in the channels perhaps, right on the bottom, best scenario is perhaps there has always been enough or too much water in the Klamath, for the miners to sink shafts, ??? , it is a possibility, I have my fingers crossed for you anyway,
As for #4,, please don't think I am being pushy with you try to get you to put a dam in, I am just suggesting ideas, for the new guys,:smile:
You wrote, There really isn't a creek on the green line,...........just a low lying damp area during the wetter months. It's got river in it during flood years, but most years it's just a few pools in early spring and most of that water is probably seepage off the hillside to the south, although there is a small seasonal creek that flows in from the south at about the midpoint of the bar.
Excellent description kaveman, I suggest the creek is well drained , suggesting to me that a filtration dam could be placed near and at creek level, and filter your clean tailing's water into the creek , which would easily drain,
Do you have a plan for getting water to the dredge hole, ??.
I also agree there should be plenty of present day gold laid over most of your gravel bed by recent floods, my line of thought is when ever I dredge a hole, I am actually planning where the concentrate of gold will be next time a monster flood flushes more gold down the river, and I can just drop in to the best concentration, real quick,
Back to No, 8 in light brown, is just my suggestion on where I would place a tailing's dam and trenches to run the tailing's water, Please note the brown line running across the base of the purple arrow head,I would dug, and perhaps dredge a trench ( blotches ) across the gravel bed , I would look for one or more channels cut deep into the bed rock, , my line of thought is it is possible that there may be a channel, and also possible that both sides of the channel are Sloped in towards the channel, with possible no gold being held on the slopping bedrock, ???, just sliding in the channel with even light floods, ??. so I would head straight for the channel and look for crevices, as I followed it,
No, 9 in blue, I forgot to put an arrow, but is to indicate a drainage trench to by pass the small rapids ,lowing both volume/ depth of water behind dam No4, and in turn, No 10 , in yellow shows extra or more dry ( out of the flow ) gravels to be moved and processed, and rehabilitated, /replaced later, I would suggest in my situation and lic conditions, I would divert all the flow down the green line/creek, and work the drained inside bend ( brown line ) dry river bed between the suggested dam No 4, and down stream to the bend near the block of land , I would be working " out of the flow ", ( having already diverted the main flow from the dam into the green line creek, ) and suggest there would be only " insignificant and minor " environmental disturbance to the dried out section,
Point of interest for the new guys, , If you dig a hole in your backyard or the back of your shopping centre back yard, please note, the dirt removed is very hard to put back in the same hole and not have a "mound " , however, putting river gravels back into a dredge hole with no mound is easy which enables a dredging w/excavator sites to be returned to the original contours is easy too, I have never heard any winging about leaving " no or very little visual " sign of disturbance at a dredging site,when rehabilitated or back-filled to original contours,
Kaveman, thanks for all your posts, and please keep posting, great learning form you thanks,

I post post the "dredging w/ excavator part 3, pics of my area, ( first pic anyway, ):devil:





kaveman
06:14:07 Thu
Mar 26 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
There isn't much in the general area as far as hardrock. The middle Klamath runs through a non-mineralized area, although the entire river has several tertiary benches of auriferous gravels. For the most part, there's little gold in the present river channel except in areas where the modern river cuts across or erodes the ancient river channel, or downstream of any of the old hydraulic workings which did pretty much the same thing. There are a few areas of hardrock mineralization(Cottonwood, Humbug, Scott Bar), and the river runs rich for some miles below these areas, but all are many miles above my ground.

If there are any remains of old shafts, I would expect that they would be covered over and filled with loose material that gets reworked and deposited during each flood. Deeper down there is probably cemented material from long ago that will show the shafts if we uncover any. I'm pretty sure we'll find areas of old workings, even though there isn't any sign at the surface. I know of a few spots that look like WWI battlefields with eroded ditches and overgrown spoil piles that are above the flood levels. I'm guessing those are old works. Strangely, there isn't a single cobble or boulder pile anywhere on the bar, and you see those along the river anywhere work has been done.

We're planning to stay out of the river entirely, period. Any water we need we will pump and we have enough room to drain all waters back into the bar so there will be zero discharge. That brushy area on the north bank #9, between the two brown bars,.................that's vertical from river's edge. There won't be any channeling of water on that side. The river charges through here pretty good, and the opposite side of the river at #10 is polished bedrock. Little to no material there to work. 10 to 20' of the bank in yellow is also clean; at least in the upper few hundred feet of the bar.

We would not be allowed to divert the river even if it was physically possible. Certain things can't be done here. No damming, no diverting. If the excavator bucket or track touches water, we'll lose everything we own. Same goes for any spill in or near the waterway, so Old Yeller won't get within 50' of the river. Any gold there will just have to wait. We'll keep busy nearer the middle of the bar. I still think we're going to get our first samples from the area marked #1. We'll drop back a few hundred feet for the next run and both will cut across the bar 100' or so.

dredger
00:46:56 Sun
Mar 29 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
hey kaveman,
Great post mate, you say,
" There isn't much in the general area as far as hard rock. The middle Klamath runs through a non-unrealized area, although the entire river has several tertiary benches of auriferous gravels. For the most part, there's little gold in the present river channel except in areas where the modern river cuts across or erodes the ancient river channel, or downstream of any of the old hydraulic workings which did pretty much the same thing. There are a few areas of hard rock mineralization(Cottonwood, Humbug, Scott Bar), and the river runs rich for some miles below these areas, but all are many miles above my ground.
That is completely gold source different then my situation/area, " Amazing ", i picture in my mind that bottle of Au and PGMs pic you posted, and with my bad memory remember you saying something about 1% PGMs in that area,?. and wonder where the larger % concentration of PGMS will be found, :smile:, or if in fact , there will be gold there too, ??. do you have any more info on PGMS that are of interest to you, ??. I am fully open to any suggestions or thoughts you may have on PGMs, ?. I do like the way you think , and do your homework, so what you think you know ,?? is what I would like to hear, :smile:.
My theory on PGMs that I find in my area, is a big one, haha, ok roughly, I am guessing it is " there " from something like Thermal deposition, or Meteorite splatter, blar, blar, and not from the same reason why we find sources of gold,Vein/hard rock in our area,, I suggest that is because of the "boiling/vapour temperature " difference between PGMs and Au, ect, ect, to explain the only "key " that I have been able to think of, Please note the following observations and think yellow gold,
You say , "There are a few areas of hard rock mineralization(Cottonwood, Humbug, Scott Bar), and the river runs rich for some miles below these areas, but all are many miles above my ground." New guys" Please note we are referring To Gold,and I agree with Kaveman and I think most will agree " who" have had experience, I would also suggest further that most of us would agree that over the " some miles below the source ", the river grinds the gold smaller and smaller, until it is so fine and smooth, and thin, super fine ground gold stays in suspension, and quickly lost out of the area by flood, ( New guys please note) , also most of us who have experience "can" actually observe from a bulk sample, ( days work with a 8' dredge ) that the sample was taken from very close to the source, ( very chunky , crystalline ,attached quartz, hardly any smooth surfaces), compared to another large dredge sample of all fine, smooth flat gold, taken from some miles down the creek and river behind the source, ( New guys also please note I am referring to river dredging, with hard rock gold vein sources,) So, my point is gold is a soft metal and has a heavy high Specific Gravity,and gets ground up pretty easy over a distance in these circumstances, ,

I suggest the keys to is PGMs,is they also have a slightly higher Specific Gravity, and is slightly harder surface, (but still soft ), which i suggest is also subject to being ground to smaller and smaller sizes over some miles, perhaps slightly less rate then gold, suggesting that PGM deposits also "have rich river runs ", over some miles,I further suggest a few points of interest ,and some whopper guesses.
No1, Can a deposit of gold be a source for gold to shed , and grind itself into suicidal fines,( over some miles), Ans, YES, ( in the right conditions ), No 2, Can a slightly heavier /harder ( PGM ) metal deposit shed or be eroded and grind it self to suicidal fines, Ans, YES,
No3 , I also would suggest that gold deposits like hard rock and tertiary benches of auriferous gravels anywhere , can be crossed by rivers, and can " BY CHANCE " cross a ( chance/random ) deposit /erosion area where PGMs deposited " in small grains, ect ,ect whenever,ect ect,
No5, I would also suggest that if the above is correct, I that this might be part of the reason why PGM discoveries or reported finds, ( along with gold ) are so " vague "??. or ( what is the words ) " by chance,( in my area,
Back asap, sorry this post was written over three days, bits and bits changed every where, b basic blar, blar, No 6, coming next,



dredger
01:42:08 Sun
Mar 29 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
No 6, hey kaveman, I would like to refer back to your pic showing nice little shiny clean PGM pickers in the bottle, when I first saw that pic, it occurred to me that there were no dirty or discoloured bits, which suggested to me several points of interest, A, you only picked out the nice shiny pickers and placed them in the bottle, ( and left the other dirty bits in the black sands if they were there at all, ) ,B, there are only nice shiny pickers in that dredged area/ section of the river, if , B is correct , I would suggest judging by the nice ground shiny surface on your pickers, that they have travelled some miles, from the original source, which brings us to, I suggest 2 possibilities, One, they came from the old mine along with the gold, or Two, they came from " a PGM source " a few miles up river,

By Dirty i mean still covered with residue .
,
and shiny clean i mean well worn.
,
back soon,

dredger
05:17:24 Sun
Mar 29 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
No 7 , is about a line of thought which suggest that gold sources and PGM sources by chance cross each others path, perhaps one or the other source of either may be as much as " some miles "apart , we know how to track gold to find the source, , pan the river to find the creek, then pan up the creek to find the source, ( vein hard rock or odoriferous gravels,), rich enough to work, with out any gold, ??.
No8, is about looking at a bulk sample as a hole and visually /scope accessing the amount of wear or grinding on the surface of the gold Or PGM over the bulk sample, to possibly guess the distance travelled by them, is feasible,
( eg, if I found mostly dirty coloured ,underground , PGMs shapes amongst flat fine ground flaky gold, I could assume, I am at the beginning of the PGM source, and at the rear of the gold source,).BUT, one must remember that the similarity between shedding Au, and shedding / " concentration" of a deposit of PGMs is very different, in so much that gold can be be shed ( down the creek a few miles from a source / vein gold ect,and enter the river nice clean chunky partly worn smooth gold nuggets ,small and large,, and PGMs deposits like Thermal Deposition and or Meteorite Splatter could cover huge areas, which could be eroded/concentrated by nature in a way as to ? produce mostly smooth PGM pickers as well as a lot of rough dirty unground PGMs entering the river, which in my line of thought should make tracking PGMs to their source or how much distance a little harder,

Just guessing,



dredger
05:33:58 Sun
Mar 29 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
I was going to post the following map pics,as Part three, but I think it is pretty relevant here discussing PGMs sources and Gold sources, so,
, back soon,

kaveman
23:18:45 Wed
Apr 1 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Been on the road for the last week, so catching up,......

I don't have much knowledge concerning the PGMs or too much interest in them either. I'm just hoping to someday have enough Plat in a bottle to fabricate a ring for some woman I haven't yet met, so it hasn't been a high priority,..........and it's becoming less of a priority every year as worthwhile women are being used up.

My understanding is that PGMs are relatively rare in the lower 48 of the US and the Klamath is one of the better sources,................but still a poor source with spotty distribution. I honestly don't recall where the Plat came from as it has resided in the bottle for 15-20yrs, but generally I believe it's more common downriver from areas I have worked. Salmon River area gets most mention. The common PGM here in the Klamath area is referred to as osmiridium, although there is true platinum as well,..........
http://books.google.com/books?id=ERoMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=klamath+platinum+osmiridium&source=bl&ots=k-fC4sixfd&sig=RDjFhhwnr7t0amJpE9Qvg-AvWCo

Placer gold looks like gold and the platinum looks like platinum, and you also find a lot of mercury covered gold that looks like platinum,........ but there are always some heavies lying back in the cons that don't look like anything. Might be lead, might be merc'd gold that has gone bad, or might be the black PGMs I think you're referring to. Unless you melt it or hit it with acid, it's hard to tell. We generally keep anything heavy, and just as generally never do anything with it. Someday when we end up with pounds rather than fractional ounces, we'll follow up on what it all is. There are stories I've heard of rich streaks of black carbon-like covered gold and PGMs that would have been missed if it weren't for a lucky scrape with a rock or boot or somesuch, but those stories always devolve into lost goldmine stories to which I pay little attention.

As a note, it is my understanding that PGMs from the Klamath bring about 65% spot price if you can manage to get enough to sell. I had always assumed that the low yield was due to the cost of refining, but after reading a little more I wonder if it isn't more a result of the true platinum percentage of the combined platinum/osmiridium and other PGMs that make up your poke. You may not be getting paid for any of the other values.




kaveman
00:11:32 Thu
Apr 2 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
I'm of the opinion that big gold never moves, or moves very, very little over time. Obviously it does work it's way down a steep slope into the river, but once in the river and down through the material onto bedrock, and into a crack, it'll stay right there until the bedrock itself is pulverized in a big flood and moved downstream where the nugg will find another home after a short run. They do become waterworn and smooth over the years, but I'm guessing that's more due to all the material moving across them rather than due to their own movement. Smaller gold moves more easily and moves further. Wear on the fines likely comes from movement of the fines.

Rather than having gold ground down into powder fines that flow downriver, I would suggest that gold isn't grindable. I believe that gold will remain at the size it originally forms in the vein, but gold of all sizes erodes from that vein and deposits into the watershed. The heavy gold remains near the source. The finer the gold particles, the further they travel from the source. The more worn and rounded the gold, the longer it's been there, but only in a relative way does it indicate the 'distance' travelled. Gold is soft and malleable and to my way of thinking, it's just about the most ungrindable material that exists. Mills will grind it, but that's what they're designed to do. Rivers move it, but I suspect they're not very efficient grinders, unless you're a rock.

All that is about a 90% concurrence with established thought with my own 10% of divergent thinking thrown in FWIW. Just another way to look at it, all in theory. I sometimes don't think the way everyone else seems to. For instance, I'm not convinced that gold travels from inside bend to inside bend. I seriously doubt that gold ever crosses current. I think it's better to picture gold moving downriver as a series of 'ribbons' from bank to bank, travelling smoothly and cleanly through unlikely deposition areas and stopping to rest in likely spots. You may find a deposit at a bend on one side of the river and another deposit further down along the opposite bank, but those are deposits from two separate flows and the impression of gold crossing from side to side is imaginary. All for what it's worth.

I started not believing things when I once saw a recommendation suggesting that you use duct tape to seal a break in a suction hose to prevent gold from getting out. Uhmmmmm,................it's 'suction' hose. How's anything going to 'get out'? From then on I took in everything I could but always kept an open mind to the idea that the common knowledge might very well be mistaken.

We've got one spot where the gold we recover is coarse, frosty and crystaline with lots of fragile milky white quartz still attached. Obviously that gold is fresh from a vein and I'll bet it hasn't moved a hundred feet. In fact, I'll bet money the vein exposure is underwater. 100% of the gold recovered from a mile or two upriver is smooth, sluggy and without a trace of matrix. I know where a vein is! :doublethumbsup:


LipCa
13:59:36 Thu
Apr 2 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
I thought I had a vein too until I found the "wash boulder" that had broken up and released the "fresh from the vein" gold...........

dredger
06:16:11 Fri
Apr 3 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Opps , there is that "ignore thing" going crazy again, :confused:. it must have a mind of it' s own, cause I don't know what makes it do it, ????.

Hey kaveman ,
That makes me 1 1/2 posts behind you, :confused:,
You say, "Deeper down there is probably cemented material from long ago that will show the shafts if we uncover any. I'm pretty sure we'll find areas of old workings, even though there isn't any sign at the surface.". I found the machine was a little light and unable to penetrate with the standard width bucket, when ever I found really old packed gravels, I would not say "cemented ", because my ripper tyne or my crevice flusher would rip through them easily enough, but i have seen really black cemented material, it had a real resin appearance, but that was not in the river, ??. up a creek, ??,
Anyway , when you do find it there is every reason to guess it will have good gold in it, :devil:
You say, "there isn't a single cobble or boulder pile anywhere on the bar, and you see those along the river anywhere work has been done ".very interesting,
You say, "We would not be allowed to divert the river even if it was physically possible. Certain things can't be done here. No damming, no diverting. If the excavator bucket or track touches water, we'll lose everything we own. Same goes for any spill in or near the waterway, so Old Yeller won't get within 50' of the river. Any gold there will just have to wait. We'll keep busy nearer the middle of the bar. I still think we're going to get our first samples from the area marked #1. We'll drop back a few hundred feet for the next run and both will cut across the bar 100' or so", that will do for now,
You say, "Placer gold looks like gold and the platinum looks like platinum, and you also find a lot of mercury covered gold that looks like platinum,........ but there are always some heavies lying back in the cons that don't look like anything. Might be lead, might be merc'd gold that has gone bad, or might be the black PGMs I think you're referring to. Unless you melt it or hit it with acid, it's hard to tell. We generally keep anything heavy, and just as generally never do anything with it. Someday when we end up with pounds rather than fractional ounces, we'll follow up on what it all is. There are stories I've heard of rich streaks of black carbon-like covered gold and PGMs that would have been missed if it weren't for a lucky scrape with a rock or boot or somesuchPlacer gold looks like gold and the platinum looks like platinum, and you also find a lot of mercury covered gold that looks like platinum,........ but there are always some heavies lying back in the cons that don't look like anything. Might be lead, might be merc'd gold that has gone bad, or might be the black PGMs I think you're referring to. Unless you melt it or hit it with acid, it's hard to tell. We generally keep anything heavy, and just as generally never do anything with it. Someday when we end up with pounds rather than fractional ounces, we'll follow up on what it all is. There are stories I've heard of rich streaks of black carbon-like covered gold and PGMs that would have been missed if it weren't for a lucky scrape with a rock or boot or somesuch",
That will be a fun day, when dredging w/hyd excavator have recovery systems that will handle all those probs with excellent efficiency, maybe with all the PGMs , Hg, Pb tidbits the PGM % might jump up higher, also by that time i would suggest we will have cranked up these machines into doing much higher rates of recovery and processing when the excavator or excavators are doing the digging, The big question is how fast will we be able to go, ??. any way for the moment, I think you will have a lot of fun with what you have got, :smile:
You say, I'm of the opinion that big gold never moves, or moves very, very little over time. Obviously it does work it's way down a steep slope into the river, but once in the river and down through the material onto bedrock, and into a crack, it'll stay right there until the bedrock itself is pulverized in a big flood and moved downstream where the nugg will find another home after a short run. They do become waterworn and smooth over the years, but I'm guessing that's more due to all the material moving across them rather than due to their own movement. Smaller gold moves more easily and moves further. Wear on the fines likely comes from movement of the fines." , my line of thought flows to the Mohs scale of hardness, and the hardness of some items, Finger nails is, 2.5. Gold Silver Copper penny is , 2.5 -3. Plat is 4 - 4.5 Iron is ,4.5. knife blade , ( i know I can easily sharpen my knife or tools on the rocks in my area, ) 5.5. Quartz " is 7 ", ( most rocks in my area are as hard as quartz,??) Harden steel file is 7+ plus, So I suggest over many many years they spend most of their time sliding on a surface like sand paper which does tear and rip tiny Angstrom size ( 1,000 microns = 1mm, 10,000 Angstroms= 1mm, smallest gold molecule recorded, 2.45 Angstroms, ) bits "off " the bulk of f any size gold, please note , we know that a river cuts deep ( 6' x4' ) channels into bedrock, I suggest that requires a solid tube of slurry ( 6' x4' )" moving "at or with considerable speed, I suggest the Sg of gold and PGMs have only enough effect to keep the low and travelling on the bedrock , ( also considering the amounts of black sands involved, ( excellent sand paper materials, ) also travelling or moving or rolling with the gold, which i imagine is sort of sliding over the bedrock, nose continually dipping down as the extremely strong current sweeps it along,al the time begging hammered down flat onto the bedrock by 6' of rocks travelling above it , , Please note this, anyone one can use a bit of light coloured chalky rock to write their name on a dark coloured big rock, please try it with a gold nugget, you only have to rub a little harder then soft chalk and a little longer to fill in the grained / sand paper surface of the big rock,
Also please note how easy it is to rub some fine gold for testing, on a testing stone,
,
Bit like skid marks on a road, or on a rock,??.
So mate, I think i will go with the sanding down ( abrasion, ) concept, but please note, I believe I have an open mind, and practice getting things wrong all the time ,
You wrote, started not believing things when I once saw a recommendation suggesting that you use duct tape to seal a break in a suction hose to prevent gold from getting out. Uhmmmmm,... " I agree, which reminds me to mention a experience of mine with tape, , ok when i dredged, I would start sucking the silt and rocks from around the jet and proposed entry/exit point for me to get out of the hole, I use a thin wall plastic rib hose, very flexible, and easily retracted into a short flexible hose, one end had the nozzle , the other end went / slip straight on the jet log, I also had 2 lengths of thick wall plastic rib hose 8", which was not flexible, as well as 2 lengths of plastic ribbed " bar-flow " 8"hose, I would clean around with the flexible hose, and the add a " joiner sleeve" and a length of thick wall plastic ribbed hose, eventually joining all 5 lengths together, each of the joiner sleeves was 18" x 8" stainless steel thin wall pipe,
My point is you mention loosing gold out of a hole in a suction hose, I agree not much chance of loosing gold out of a hole that has sucked close a rip in the hose, however, my experience of joining hoses together with a sleeve quickly showed gold on the bedrock around the the joins, because the voins were not sealed, and because of flexing in the joins, SO, what i did to seal the hose ends was this, At the nozzle I used a length of 1/2 " nylon rope, I wound that around the centre of the s/s sleeve, with the rope length so the end butted up to each other, then hold that in place, I applied a wide material surface finish tape, ( this " hundred mile an hour tape , as we call it ) , to more one side of the rope, then again wrapped another length around and on the rope /pipe , and I did that twice on each side, this meant the all the hoses would slide along the s/s sleeve about 6' inches, then jam on the 2 thickness layers of tape, holding the hose off the rope seal about 2 inches, soon as the motors were set to "run " , and with a little shake the hose sucked/slid over the wet tape and sealed against the rope /tape beautifully, when running i could see picker size flakes of gold jambed in between the outside of 6" of stainless /steel sleeve and inside the hose, with some gravel,
The nozzle was attached the flexible suction hose with a similar rope and tape seal with the addition of 2 screw clamps pulling the hose hard on the tape,
Where the hose , ( usually thick walled plastic ribbed hose ) slid onto the jet log, I used my largest gold pan or large plastic dish, with a big rock in it, placed directly under where the hose slid off the jet, I always found gold in the pan or dish, mostly dropped when removing the hose to clear a blockage, please note, my sluice was "sat on top of the gravels, ( no vibration, and the motor were 30' away from the sluice and hose, ( again no vibration, ), So the gravel and some gold would work it way inside the s/s sleeve,and stop at the tape seal, Please note, that it was my experience that when I removed the tape /rope seal , I found " flat " good pick size and smaller gold , that had passed under the tap, between the tape and the hose, right up to the rope, when removing the tape i found small flakes stuck from the tape glue, to the s/s sleeve, so I agree , not much chance of loosing gold from a hole punctured through the hose, but it was my experience to have a never ending battle with gold creeping out between tape / rope seals and sleeves,and when joining or dismantling the hoses, the upside was if i occasional changed the seals, ( and especially around the nozzle end ) , I would get some good gold that was caught ,

YOU KNOW where the vein is,, Yahoo. :devil:.to you , WE WANT PICS, HAHA PLEASE. there have to be quite a few veins crossing river beds, ( I think i would have a heart attack if I found a REAL vein,
sorry GOTTA RUN, GREAT POSTS MATE,NO OFFENCE MENT MATE. dredger,




kaveman
17:18:43 Mon
Apr 6 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
No offense taken. It's just an offset theory(and only part of one at that), not proven fact, and even if true it's only occasionally true. Nothing's always ever. You make a good point with the streak test,................no debate that that'll smear a particle of gold down to dust. You make me reevaluate how I always sorta imagined a bedload to move during a flood.

I imagined that the bulk of the material at the bottom seldom moved and that it took a huge deluge to rip it all up and cut new bedrock channel. Your streak makes me think of something else,.................

What if the entire bedload moves more like a glacier during a flood, with only the uppermost layers actually rolling along? What if the lower layers, much like a glacier, grind and ooze downriver and gouge their way through the bedrock channels? They don't move fast, but they do move as an intact, viscous layer due to the weight of the water above? That would certainly grind away at everything. When you think about it, how does anyone really know what goes on below the surface?

Anyway, our area is very likely to have a false bedrock of what's known locally as Seiad Cement. It's very common for a stretch below Seiad Valley(little local village)and it's just as the name implies,.............a grey cement layer that is practically impenetrable. We had it under our paystreak in the dredge hole just above the bar here, and almost all of our gold recovered came from off the top of that cement. Never did find a way to break through it and get to honest bedrock. Hammers and chisels and airhammers and blasting hoses(and the dredge)did practically nothing to it. Two of us working for a solid hour on nothing but that cement managed a hole about the size of a bushel basket and we never got a read on whether or not the material contained any gold. Hardly matters if you can't process enough of it to pay, but who knows what riches might lie on the bedrock below? AFAIK, nobody has determined one way or the other whether the Seiad Cement is an ancient, natural occurance(maybe volcanic), or if it's man-made and a result of the hydraulic mines upstream. If it's ancient, then it's definitely virgin.

I've heard stories(again)of one operation striking it rich by using an excavator to rip out the cement layer and mining the bedrock beneath(years ago when such a thing was possible in the river), and another storie where dredgers tunneled down through it and made out very well dredge-drifting beneath it. Neither story happened in my area and the dredging op happened on a different river, but it still makes you wonder.


Gold trapping in the hose junctions,................sure. Anything that lets the gold duck out of the current will trap it. By sealing those junctions, you created gold traps. If you'd left them open to draw in water, gold wouldn't have settled there(but you'd have wasted dredge power with a bunch of system leaks). Taping a crack or puncture in a hose loses gold; leaving the hole open might cost you some power, but the gold will continue on its way to the sluicebox. Just something in a book that I found puzzling,................


dredger
03:32:08 Tue
Apr 7 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
arrrrrrR, I think I am figuring OUT that " ignore " problem of mine, when I press on " interact " to "reply " and press on that, I accidentally ( not knowing I am do it ) , my finger "scrolls down " by it self, and sometimes ends up on " Ignore " , I panic , and red cross the window, ( so as not to do anymore damage, ), Note to self, " NO SCOLLING " AND PLEASE NOTE, iT WAS NEVER MY INTENTION TO "IGNOR" ANYONE, :confused:.
Hey Kaveman, great post mate,very inspiring :smile:,
No offense taken. It's just an offset theory(and only part of one at that), not proven fact, and even if true it's only occasionally true. No thing's always ever. I agree, and my line of thought is " the more we keep stabbing at it the quicker we will get more gold in our pockets, :smile:
You say, "You make me reevaluate how I always sorta imagined a bed load to move during a flood. ". Mate here is some more, ??? points of interest, a little experience of mine was to go water skiing on this dam for the purpose of checking out some old diggings at the head waters of this dam , which i found heaps, so there was gold there,

please note the next pic shows the original course of the river was diverted and a new spill way was placed over ground /bedrock that had never had a river over it, ( the miner in me decided that illegal mid-night mining would be pointless due to the fact that no gold would have run down the spill way, please note the dam is about 50 years old, ????.
Next pic ,
,, is where it gets really interesting, the pic does not really show that much of the spill way area, has been " totally " sweep clean to the bedrock, please note only water has passed through the spill gates, all the thousands of tons of gravel that does move down the river are and have settled way over the other side of the dam, please also note, most of the dirty water has also settled in the dam before the gates during high flooding, so there is little or no abrasive type materials in the water passing through the spill-way,
Which brings me to a observation I made with a set of Binoculars sanding on the roads around the area, please note the gullies and channels " cut " in to the bedrock were exactly like the water worn gullies I dredged in rivers, my point here is the bedrock gullies at the dam were cut and worn smooth by " Just water must have happened in a period of around 50 years, I suggest this fast wearing of bed rock erosion happens quickly , very quickly , even without rocks /gravels ??.


dredger
02:35:50 Sun
Apr 12 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey Kaveman, sorry again about the "ignore thing " . I know not what I do, ( Note to self ) all i have to do is delete the ignore command , ???, :confused:

I am having computer probs, as well, as being bussy,

So I hope you will read this before you go dredging,

HAVE A GREAT TIME, , I know you are an experienced dredger, and I remember back when I first went dredging with an excavator, sure it will take time to get used to the digger, but it won't be long before you notice how much faster you are dredging, as well as dredging much bigger holes, YAHOO, great fun mate, I will be interested to hear how much faster you think you can dredge now, Hahahah,
You say, the Seiad Cement is an ancient, this is where the ripper tyne comes in so handy, in my area I do get some pretty hard packed channels , when I use the ripper to break it up, and still find big chunks of hard packed while dredging, I tend to place them on flat bedrock near where i am working, and flatten them with the bucket next chance,after , when i dredged those materials ( slowly ) i could or would find what gold was in them, another point of interest is, if your dredging and find hard packed materials, or if there is too much overburden on the bedrock that you have missed digging, just move the suction nozzle/hose to a safe distance, All tools ect, and move the overburden or big rocks with the bucket, ok this makes the work hole dirty , but with clean water running in the hole, and the dredge running you can jump back in and get dredging pretty quick, my line of thought is the process of using a dredge/ excavator works out quicker if you use the excavator a lot, while dredging, other wise you will waste a lot of time just putting or dredging overburden materials that the excavator can move a lot quicker, also another point of interest is if you are digging up or down river bedrock, the channels in the bedrock are running up and down river,and it is easy to miss channels thinner then the bucket width, with that in mind when you finish digging a trench /hole, move the machine around to the side of the hole, and scrap or feel with the bucket across any channels, there can be a single channel or many channels, ( usually smaller and less deep ), you will quickly learn how to feel your way around and channels running up or down river , also to at least break up any hard stuff where you can, I found it is quicker to dredge materials that are broken up then having to waste time getting them out with the crevise flusher, :gonetoofar:,

Ok, better post , dredger,


dredger
03:27:51 Mon
Apr 13 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
For the new guys , I would like to "emphasize " that dredging a small amounts of gravels , ( perhaps a few feet deep, ), that have been already broken up by the excavator, is really easy and fast, one of the reasons why is because you can use two hands to basically lift/ push the larger rocks aside, while gulping down the smaller materials left on the bedrock after excavating the hole, another reason is the suction from the nozzle does not have to be so close to or be forced on to the work face, ( to maintain a constant flow of gravels to the sluice, ) , ( please note, when dredging without a excavator,, some really hard pack materials " can not be broken up with a crevice flusher " fast enough " / too slow ". ) I personally enjoyed sitting on or kneeling with the nozzle held between my legs, with my hole up body hanging over or further out over the nozzle, please also note, my nozzle was sucking most gravels and rocks for 2-3' , which gave the advantage of being able to see most gold laying on the bedrock, and being able to sort the larger rocks, and most important , fewer Blockages for the day, and the fact, that this type of dredging, is like flying, or speed dredging, :devil:.
Next is some points of my interest concerning why I found gold travelling on the outside of a bend, and why there is almost no gold , close to where I found the main gold run,, I also suggest for the new guys, if your checking on , ( I suggest 2-3 areas ), on possible places to look for gold, using topographic maps, and google earth,
Starting with the google earth, and i hope it is readable,

And topo map section of the same area,

Testing, back asap.





dredger
10:46:32 Mon
Apr 13 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok, I forgot to suggest to focus on high constant flows of gravels with gold, attention should be paid to recovery, or more to the point, a wider sluice width then just a say 8" working packed river gravels w/out a excavator, ,
Please note the sixth Pic above showing google pic, Gold is shed from both sides of the surface diggings on Nuggety hill, into Nuggety Gully, and Spring Creek, ( Latest Drill reports state, only one drill hole shows gold, no work planned, ), but still a lot of gold was shed into Spring and Benedict Creeks as well as the gold shed from the Hard rock mine and surface workings, ( No name ) into the main river flow, gold found in both creeks is mainly worn, up to big pickers,
My line of thought is to show the gold shed from the creeks , and gold shed from old high banks, ( old river bottoms),into and down the river for about 1 and 1/2 miles, only, also hopefully show new guys a few relevant point of interest I found,
Next please note the pic of a topo map, 2 above , I suggest these are very handy maps for the new guys , showing houses /road/ fire trails, and old diggings , not really update, on the mining, but I have found them to be very helpful, please note on the topo map, I have placed some small arrows to show where old high bench diggings and water races where used in the old days, indicating gold in the area, then by zooming in on Google Earth, please note google earth pic above, ( the wide one ), and I will hopefully fill in some more details,
1, and two arrows shows an section of worked high bench, ( small mounds left by the old times show good gold shedding in to the river above where the creeks connect,
2, and two arrows shows a section between the arrows points,Similar or same high bench , where post holes where drilled to bedrock, samples show very good gold, then we filled the holes back in a bit then suck the posts in , ( farmer had already bulldozed all old signs of old diggings ,
3, with 4 arrows shows high bench , two inside arrows shows 1920's hydraulic mining , left big hole, two outside arrows show old diggings, ( tops of filled in shafts, were 6-12 feet deep ),
4, is the direction of river flow,
5, is move high bench old diggings,shafts,
6, is extensive hydraulic sluicing /old diggers very high on the hill, very big and deep holes are visible, farmed bulldozed the rest of the old diggings for crops,
A, is where the creeks dump into the river, and the creek is prone to flash flooding, please note on the topo map, shows the road t-insections just below where the creeks enters the river, the gold is travelling on the last inside bend of the creek, as it enters the river, and is "carried " across the river to the "inside bend " bedrock is mostly flat except for deep channels cut into the bedrock in the inside bend, please note 3 yellow arrows , 5 yellow X's shows where good gold has been found, and 2 re arrows and red 2 X's show where very little gold was found , please also note difference between topo map and google pic concerning which side of the Island of trees the water course may take or run depending on whether the creek and river flood at the same time, or just the river, or just the creek, which i suggest did not matter to the gold , because most of the gold ending up on the inside bend opposite to the creek entrance,
B, is 2 red arrows showing where the was no gold , only smooth sloping bedrock , and the adjacent 2 yellow X's and 3 yellow arrows show where the gold was, gravel bed or river bed is roughly 60' wide,
C, is 2 yellow arrows, 5 yellow X's showing good gold and the inside bend with classic 12' deep channels cut into the bedrock , , crevices and main fault present, please note the tree in the middle of the main flow, it is a big tree, and old, ( possibly sitting on top of bedrock outcrop, ??. ), please note main flood flow covers a river width of about 80 ' wide, inside of deep channel is slopping smooth bedrock, 30' wide,
better post back asap,


dredger
04:35:06 Tue
Apr 14 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
inside of deep channel is slopping smooth bedrock, 30' wide,
Did not make much sence so here is another pic,

testing,

dredger
11:12:27 Thu
Apr 16 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Please note old water race, which are usually level, but over 100 + years tend to slip down the hill in places, is a good indication, that the river flow was diverted to drain the river, so that deep sections of river beds could be worked to bedrock, and water supply to high up the creeks,
Please note, Area C, hyd sluiced area/workings, there is actually a very big hole, and the high bench /old river bed is water worn, also please note , sluices were cut through old bed rock as can be seen, interesting point for the new guys here is the section or hole area must have had rich gold, because it was first shafted,and bedrock or old gully cut by old river , were cleaned, then later , hyd sluiced, to recover the gold in the gravels " between " the shafts, left by the old timers.

Light blue lines are high water marks in floods , Green lines are where the smooth bedrock slopes around the inside of the bend and down slightly to the ( gray lines ) channels cut in the bedrock, which is also the path or the flow during big floods, just outside is the present water flow, out side that is shallow green grass, on top of jaggered bedrock, ( very little gold there, to high and very much on the out side of the bend, ) out side that is the light blue lines and showing high water mark, please note , the gray line starting on the right side of the pic, upstream , shows where the main flood flow ( and " heavier gold ) run, this section has a few feet of overburden over smooth bedrock, ( most of the gold is travelling in the overburden, )little to no crevices, moving further down stream ,please note squarish area which had good crevices, faults and good gold, further left , the gray line splits into two channels , which did run deep, here in and around this section,, the bedrock was well cracked, which are very good gold catchers, the cracked bedrock chunks are easily removed by finding the key stone and using a small jimmy bar,
Sorry, back soon,



hoppingforpay
05:26:44 Sat
Apr 18 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
I enjoy reading you guys and can tell there are some findings under your belts...I have not made it to excavator status due to fear of buying something so expensive with hard earned gold. Anyway I was wondering if you you're familiar with this guy. I moved from California to Alaska in the early nineties in hopes of bigger deposits and lesser restrictions...haha.. one out of two hopes worked out!

http://www.fortymilegold.ca/FortymileGoldPlacers.html


dredger
03:23:25 Sun
Apr 19 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey hoppingforpay,

Please mate, get to excavator status ASAP, You say, "buying something so expensive ". hold on a minute there,( hold that thought ), I prefer machines around the same age and what looks to be in very good condition as kavemans are the best to start with, , his is a excellent choice, no where near as complicated or expensive as a new machine, and around here perhaps around $20,000AUD and less, to me, that's means I or you would have around 100 men digging /working for me or you, :devil:, and they all do exactly what ya tell them to do, ( no strikes ), ( no free lunches ), :smile:. setting up an operation is not rocket science either,
For the new guys who want to dredge all year round, say below Alaska, warmer conditions, and not expensive to buy/ transport a machine, I suggest excavators are more easier to get too, especially considering the recession, , I suggest finding say 4-6 equal partners, to share the costs is possible, :confused:. allot partnerships do work out, and I am sure there are a lot of good trustworthy miners out there , and the price of gold should be going up, ??.
Yes hoppingforpay, I am familiar with the floating trommels, in fact i thought of the time i was in New Zealand on a big "old " trammel, 1996, laying face down on the right pontoon, banging my head on the flat steel pontoon, thinking , "how can you get the gold missed/ lost by the excavator bucket while digging ", I think of when I dig the hole in my area, I want to drop the gold onto the bedrock, where I can be sure of sucking it up. ( In New Zealand the river /hills mountains are very similar to Canada,cold water too, ) I also remember on the of the Gray river, NZ. there was a yellow/brown rotten bedrock layer at bedrock level, (sticky as ), onto which the gold would have fallen , the operator had to try and scrap a thin layer off the top of the sticky clay, ( testing showed the clay scxxxs were rolled into balls by the trammel and lost out of the trammel, all tested had gold, big and small, ), I would suggest if reliable information were on hand as to where the really good gold was found , in NZ, one day ,actually today would be a good time to go back and " re-dredge "w/excavator those areas with better recovery units, and much higher Yards per Minute methods, say 2-3 excavators , and perhaps processing one cu yard per second, yes one cu yard per second could be the target in the future, near or far future ,it is up to everyone with a dredging excavators to make it happen, ok , for the moment, lets stick to "one excavator " , and imagine say a 20-30 tonne,similar to cavemans,( operating the excavator to absolutely strick guidelines and method, only 6 second passes to load and dump one bucket, ) and imagine how to double the the bucket capacity / function, ( without increasing the standard bucket dimensions, ) say standard 2 cub metre bucket, so the bucket will now moves four cub metres within each say 6 seconds pass, that's 4 cu metres every 6 seconds ,( and if you had two excavators , that would be 8 cu metres in 6 seconds) , New guys please note, anyone with dredging experience would be saying that is crazy, and how do you process 8 box trailers ( cubic metre ), in 6 seconds over what size sluice, ??? stupid, I suggest high speed handling and processing will be the way of the future, near or far, and is definitely mechanically possible,and inevitable.
Anyway hoppingforpay, stay tuned to your excavator status , I was going to finish this post on gold on the inside of the bend, and outside of the bend, then do this " blower/sucker/ sneeze bucket concept of mine,
Back asap.

hoppingforpay
05:17:49 Sun
Apr 19 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Well I enjoy your enthusiasom for mining "dredger" certainly you are bitten by the bug! Actually Alaska has soft bedrock for the most part so an excavator can get it all in most cases. The problem here is that that the ground is frozen. Worse than if it were cement. I like the idea of a major helper tool to a dredge but in reality how much gold would be needed to cover an excavator,dredge operation compared to a pure dredge operation. Certainly more than 100 ounce streaks are needed to cover the maintenance and keep of an excavator. I am sure if you use an excavator to just help a dredge it is much less than if supplying a plant but I guess I am asking what an excavator costs to own and operate per season beyond it's purchase price. Say one that can pick up 1300 lb. dredge and walk with it.

dredger
01:56:22 Mon
Apr 20 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
"Well I enjoy your enthusiasom for mining "dredger " certainly you are bitten by the bug! ", :confused:, I don't know what you mean mate, :devil:

My alarm was about the really sticky soft bedrock stealing gold, everywhere, as seen in NZ with the NZ floating trommel,

It occures to me that we may be talking about dredging in a river, and frozen gravels and frozen soft bedrock, out of water, , it also occurs to me to think and wonder could a " closed circuit dredge w/excavator operation" , be conducted on a frozen high bench, or frozen river bed, ??. maybe , perhaps if the dredge /processing unit, held ?? 40 ton of very warm filtered water , Big processing unit, ( so the water being pumped into the hole is very hot, over the other side of the hole, the diver has insulation and cools his dry suit, ) water /gravels returns to processing unit which filters and re-heats the water, 4" to 8" nozzle, ??, 20' x 30' long hole, ?? 15' deep, maybe, ??. another line of thought is considering i have never dug in frozen gravels, do rocks freeze right down or through to the core, ??????????. I don't know, but would guess and say no, so assuming only the outside of rocks is frozen, ??, 1/16", means that the inside of the rock is not frozen, further considering attempting to dig frozen ground with a bucket, is useless, how ever using a " ripper tyne " in my opinion rip or crush rocks at around 30,000 psi break out force, meaning i would like to see if that works, ????> what a ice pick,haha,
you ask " how much gold would be needed to cover an excavator,dredge operation compared to a pure dredge operation.
So two scenarios, with and without " I can refer to "in a river " , also there are two more, 1,2,3,.4. please note, the following refers to a no gold situation, because the time taken to dig to and dredge the bedrock, can vary in days, on those days you have to spend 4-5 days cleaning good gold out of crevices, :smile:
1, being just dredge and all rocks /gravels moved by hand, 8" nozzle is best, if ya young and strong, around 30"' long x 20' wide, 8' deep hole, would take many days,
2, With excavator that moves ?? 80% of gravels, and loosens up almost all gravels on bedrock ( 2 1/2 hours ) making dredging remaining 20% of river gravels left on the bedrock , pretty fast, One day, excavator, 2 1/2 hours to prepare hole, and 2 hours to back fill/ rehab the hole, dredge hand sets up dredge at same time as digging, 3-4hours dredging, ( please remember I am not referring to extra time the diver is using to clean crevices, and extracting gold,
3, being w/excavator and suction nozzle, nozzle attached to excavator, reduces the time the diver in the water, by sucking the remaining 20% gravels left on bedrock by the bucket, meaning the diver has almost no gravels to dredge, and visual inspection of the bedrock is very quick, meaning the diver spends perhaps a 1/2 hour inspecting the bedrock,please remember these are just rough guesses , so that's 2 1/2 hours to dig the hole/ ponds ect, 20 minutes to use the sucker nozzle over the bedrock, 1/2 hour diver inspection dredging time, 2 hours to back fill,
4, will have to wait, sorry gotta run, dredger,



hoppingforpay
23:15:04 Mon
Apr 20 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Yeah there is clay off and on in places that I have dredged. I am just kind of looking into things for a creek I have in mind. I have seen how much money goes into a standard heavy equipment operation and I don't think I want to go there because it is not that easy pull off the kind of gold required to pay for all the iron.
I kind of entertained the pond heating thought... plenty of wood around.
I have to check this ground out to see just how much the old timers have left by putting many holes in by dredge. An excavator opens up the whole valley. If I could get away without a dozer I sure would save some dough.
I don't know if a ripper on a hoe would have the force to break this stuff up. A D8 can for a lot of fuel....
The ground is like extremely hard ice cream it doesn't want to crack like ice or cement. As far as I know it is either thawed,ripped with a dozer or blown up with explosives.
I don't have good computer access so my abilities to carry a thread are minimal so feel free to carry on with the Klamath.




dredger
09:01:14 Tue
Apr 21 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey hoppingforpay,
Mate, you said, " I have to check this ground out to see just how much the old timers have left by putting many holes in by dredge. An excavator opens up the whole valley.". ............ Yes I agree the excavator opens up the hole valley, but please note, checking out the ground with a excavator should be at least " ten times faster " ( definitely five time faster, depending on everything else, floods, bush fires, ect , lots of reasons , then just using the dredge, many more test holes in your season, and after you have done ya testing, ya ready to do bulk, no more machine needed, definitely not a bulldozer, please,
Also you said, places that I have dredged. "I am just kind of looking into things for a creek I have in mind. I have seen how much money goes into a standard heavy equipment operation and I don't think I want to go there because it is not that easy pull off the kind of gold required to pay for all the iron.".
"standard heavy equipment operation", mate, " this is not standard ", I hear what your saying, and one excavator, compared to many heavy equipment operations there is no comparison, really, I remember I did everything to reduce the fuel bill, the 2x Honda 13s for the dredge were amazing, New Guys please note, that is difficult to give a straight answer on average fuel usage, because any given day I would dig the hole, dredge it and find no gold, 4 and half hours digging, (excavate/ rehabilitate, / back fill to original contours) , was about 40-50 litres, dredge smooth bedrock about 5 litres of petrol, on other days, I would dig the hole , and find gold, and spend from say 1 - 5 days cleaning crevices and getting gold, on those days the excavator was used to remove tailing's, and or extend the hole, 2litres - 4 litres for the excavator per day, I did use two 20 litre Jerry cans for the excavator , and two petrol Jerry cans for the dredge, on average, ( and from a bad memory, ), Fuel was not a problem, low actual working hours for the excavator meant maintenance was also low as with wear and tear, when ya on gold the excavator mostly sits around and looks beautiful. :confused:,
Wood, ???. have you ever thought of burning the wood to get hydrogen to fuel the excavator, ???. and heat the water, ??. a small box trailer of wood per day perhaps/ could fuel a hard working excavator, ??.

You say, "The ground is like extremely hard ice cream it doesn't want to crack like ice or cement. As far as I know it is either thawed,ripped with a dozer or blown up with explosives", ........perhaps very high pressure hot water.pump running on wood burning hydrogen, ??. and I am still of the view that a 30 ton excavator would be able to rip up frozen gravel, ( not frozen ice, ) large areas of frozen ice , I would suggest a nice 30 ton " Krupp " hyd hammer, I could not see large amounts of solid ice being a problem,
Also, " I don't have good computer access so my abilities to carry a thread are minimal so feel free to carry on with the Klamath", ...........I hope you get online soon, :smile:,
And you also asked , Say one that can pick up 1300 lb. dredge and walk with it. , ...... so a 20 tonne has a cu yard bucket, which can safely carry a ton or more of dirt, with the bucket, they can lift up to 3 ton,
With a bucket, it will just lift, ( more like pushing it around, ) a 5 ton rock on top of a pile, or in the bottom of a hole, I would suggest any machine under 20 ton in a river situation, starts to feel too small,and fragile and not enough reach, amongst other reasons, even though river gravels are really easy digging materials, usually, or generally speaking,
As for frozen ground I would suggest a 25- 30 ton machine,
Please note, anyone thinking about dredging w/excavator , I have a few times had occasion to be on traditional heavy equipment mining and general earth moving sites, as a operator and plant mechanic,and at times when excavators / bulldozers/ loaders /trucks were all used, I did ask the main man , " what machine would he keep to run his operation if he were only allowed to have one machine, " they always answered "excavator" , !!!.

Ok ,
4, is a different from 1,2,3, methods, sorry again, out of time,


dredger
23:46:38 Wed
Apr 22 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
4, is a different from 1,2,3, methods,, except for a few points, one is the digging or removing all or as much overburden/gravel /gold " off the bedrock " is done " first ", then the diver inspects and and removes gold in crevices ect, my line of thought is speed up the methods 1, to 2, to 3, and finally 4, ( except when someone can think of 5, ) :smile:.
New guys ,please note, 1, and 2, methods result in any gold travelling in different layers of the overburden, above the channels, ( "which can be very good gold" ), will place flood gold on the bedrock, as oppose to methods 3, and 4, , 3, the the excavator drops the gold while digging the hole, and the gold is then sucked up by the " suction nozzle fitted to the digger ",
no 4 method will focus on sucking the gold in the over burden and lying on bedrock at the same time, please note , this means the hole is dug, and the bedrock is "high pressure blasted " ,( hopefully 2cu metre water in 2 and 1/2 seconds, all under 1" materials are removed,, meaning if the diver does not find any crevices, and the bedrock is clean , inspection of a 20' wide x 30 -35' long clean bedrock surface , ( 30-35 ' long hole being relevant to the excavator reach , /suction hose length, ), might take less then 30 minutes, ( maybe 15 minutes )??. TO INSPECT THE BEDROCK, 30-15 MINUTIES.
Next difference between methods 1,2,3,
back asap,




dredger
06:46:05 Wed
Apr 29 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry, I am trying to work out a 1,2,3,4, drawing / graph, ??. times, ??. ect, I will work on that , also I am worried i have drifted off subject , "where I found gold on the outside of a bend, for the new guys",

So , I refer to the above pic, and I last I said, "the cracked bedrock chunks are easily removed by finding the key stone and using a small jimmy bar, ". to remove usually large chunks of bedrock, ( don't forget to clean off the mud /gold sticking to the sides /bottom of the chunks of rock,) in my situation ./ area, these cracked bedrock chunks are the best gold catchers PROVIDED THEY ARE IN OR HAVE BEEN IN THE GOLD RUN" , mainly because there are hardly "NO deep crevices" for the gold to slip into once the chunks of rock are removed, ( during clean-up ).the gold is easy to sweep together and into a corner, with my hand, please also note, there is very little small gravels held in these cracks, as apposed to small gravels found in normal crevices, /faults
Next is the area between area C, and D, which has pretty well gun barrel straight channels cut shallow in to the bedrock, into and down to area D, please note the two red arrows show protruding bedrock and rock bar, on the outside of the channels, , the protruding bedrock shows water worn and carries little to no gold, just small flat flood gold in the protruding bedrock /bar,
Next pic is area D,

Green lines show smooth bedrock slopping to the outside of the bend, please also note two small red arrows are the protruding rock bar area, and gun barrel straight channels that carry most gold on the outside of the bend, and " not on the inside " of the bend, small red squares are dredge sites, little to no heavy gold found, some flaky flood gold, ( but it was worth the look ), so, my suggestion for the new guys is study a area/bend while still looking " at the big picture ", general rule is that gold travels on the inside of the bend, but, part of that or " the " rule " is there are exceptions to the rule,
Better post before i loose it ,
next points of interest ,a danger which might happen to a new guy, ( it happened to me when I was a new guy changing from 8" dredge up to dredging with a excavator , ), also might be a danger experienced dredger moving up to dredging with a excavator , :smile:
Also some blar blar about where to find /look for the smaller flood gold, in relation to the main run/channels,
Also I would suggest there is much thought about concerning " reading the river in flood ". :confused:
Sorry gotta run, back asap.


dredger
02:29:42 Sun
Aug 30 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry guys, this recession is getting bussy , back ASAP,

dredger
22:33:19 Thu
Sep 24 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry again, guys, recession / depression makes it hard to focus, bussy as , :confused:.

So, my line of thought / experience goes back to 1987 when fast water river dredging was banned in Australia, ,



dredger
03:18:25 Sat
Sep 26 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
For the new guys, to continue dredging in clean water basically several factors did have to change in my situation, 1997-89-90.

No 1 . No turbid water from tailing's leaching back into the main river flow, fact is this proven is proven method of filters resulting no or Nil effect on fish, river ect.end of discussion.
No 2 . all trees are re-located / re- planted " very quickly with big excavators, New guys please note, some trees contain too much oil to burn or bury, ( as in my areas ) without some environmental effect being able to be detected , I would suggest in the long run it is cheaper to replant, then pay to have someone cut it into fire wood, or waste time doing it your self, please also note that I am referring to or only my experience in shallow river bed as pictured above, but I would suggest where there is a will, there is a way, to even transplanting large areas of trees would be easier and quick with a special trees transplanting attachment fitted to the excavator in a quick hitch manner, or if there were a bunch of birds nesting in the trees I would work around them , or move along to the next gravel bed with less or little trees, or area, work around the problem, not just cut them done,
No 3 . picture perfect rehabilitation, ( back filling to the original contours in a similar size and deposition as found, ) as pictured above, easy.
No 4 , is when applying for licencing of “this method” , ( dredging with a excavator, ) ( anywhere ) please be aware that all other Government agencies will be informed sooner or later, so, after the first time, it is my practice to make application and inform and ask for a comment to share between departments, first, it was my experience that 12 months after I made my first application, that all “other “ relevant depts. Had objected, on the grounds that no information had been supplied to them, ??.about the above outlined methods, so I “ duplicated and supplied asap. new guys please use the line of thought that dealing with applications to all concerned parties, is a bit like being the dealer in a card “game “, except you have to deal the correct ( cards ) and complete / fact/Pics, and I found fairly cheap water sampling/testing information from an independent party, ), information to all concerned, then reshuffle and distribute relevant info ( comments ) again, please note this period of time is very intense, but a lot of fun too, also did result in reducing the “ application time “ . and also the “ environmental bonds $$$ “, were considerably reduced, considering the insignificant short term environment disturbance, compared to traditional large environmental foot print operations used in the past,
No 5 , is show and tell all heavy toxic metals recovered/information Hg/ Pb, Tooo much in my area/ river /s,

Blar blar, sorry, I am having trouble posting relevant examples of documents .



I hope anyone can use a guidelines in applications for dredging with a excavator method, , please note from first attempt is unreadable, so I am working on those, as well as Auss EPA guidelines, “ dredging in gravel bed rivers “. Asap,


I really want to move on to a bit of other blar, blar about production, we are looking at say a 8” dredge with a say 20 ton excavator, my experience is “ too time with me in the water dredging, yes, dredging in clean water in a large holes dug by a excavator and filtering the tailing's, beautiful and a lot of fun, to increase the production in this situation I suggest reducing the divers time in the water , and equipping the excavator to do most of the actual dredging, hard work, faster, and also exchanging the 8” dredge concept to a larger mobile processing unit, I am working on a pic to show some ideas on buckets, asap. Then pumps , and processing unit, ect, asap. I would suggest ny suggestions could apply to say 3 ton ( small excavator ) and small processing ( mobile ) unit, up to say two 35 ton ( large excavators ) and a processing unit say with a track base of a 35 ton excavator , and a processing unit contained or mostly contained in a forty foot shipping container,

So at this point in time I am out of time for now, ( but still trying hard ), sorry gotta run.

Dredger.


dredger
02:51:09 Mon
Sep 28 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok, i am doing some very rough drawings on old bucket pics, and asking myself how do I explain or emphasize the enormous suction and water pressure I intend to have operating in or around the bucket as it rips and I mean rips 2 cubic meters of fairly packed river gravels, or , for basically 2-3 seconds in each 6 second period or " pass " ,( fill the bucket and deliver to hopper very close by ) please note I am also referring to using 2 x 30 ton excavators, and a processing unit about the size 40 ‘ container, mounted on a 20-30 ton excavator track base, so this would be a “ high speed materials handling concept “ ( top of the range ) where ( among other things ), the bucket would be fitted with a “ screened “ suction nozzle”, capable of sucking / extracting /separating around 1 .5 to 2.5 cubic meters of screened materials /slurry /under screen size ( ½” to 3/4” ) .in the bucket as fills itself with say a 2 cu meter of over screen size rocks/slurry, I would further suggest that forces in the bucket would greatly assist clearing the suction screen and that the under size material would be sucked and crushed through all oversize materials containing large rocks, however if that is not enough, there is another trick which should clear the screen fairly well on it own,

Now referring to the high water pressure side or part of the “bucket concept “ , ok , high pressure is a bit of an under statement , and the idea will be to force around 1.5 cu meters /volume of water through a manifold situated , no integrated onto the back of the bucket,which will direct ( at this point of time ) 1.5 cubic meters of fairly clean water, at hopefully around 11,000 psi at a small area across and from behind the bucket teeth, which will be biting into the work face, where the high pressure flush will hopefully lift gold off bedrock and hard packed gravel into the work face,as well liquefying the materials and bouncing them back into the crowding/ filling bucket, off the work face,

The previously mentioned “ other trick “ to clear the screen inside the bucket,, would be direct or re-direct the high pressure water from the manifold on the back of the bucket , to inside the suction manifold on the inside of the bucket , and blow small rock jambed in the suction screen “ out “,

Sorry out of time, next is about my engines and hyd pump i intend on useing, to put muscle into sucking and blasting bucket,


dredger
23:52:44 Sat
Oct 3 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry , having computer trouble,:confused:

I have a small selection of 302 cu, 351cu Windsor motors, all LPG, ( Why LPG, ??. 3 reasons,(1) I can get it easily and cheaply on to the site, ( 2 ) refuel without shutting down production, ( 3 ) and there is no pollution,which is a good point to emphasize when making applications to all depts. ),
LPG Injection and twin turbo should provide good torque, through variable speed gearbox to ( 1 ) a Gold Cup Series axial piston pump, Mama, 100GPM / over 300 HP, beautiful, excellent condition, ( Paid $80 dollars at the scrap yard, ).

Sorry back asap. ( gotta go to church ).


dredger
02:57:28 Thu
Oct 15 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry again, just after last post , i received a " end of the month deadline " , which has taken every minute of my time and given 4 blisters on my left hand , and 2 on my right hand , sore back too, I now have a 2 day break, then back to it until the end of the month, :confused:.

So , the hyd pump will mainly supply oil to 4 - 6 rams ,( the rams will be similar size to the rams used on the excavator for lifting the boom, each ram connected to a " piston and cylinda " syringe type , about 2 -3 cu yards /water in volume, ) each ram will be fitted with electric servos, only two will supply the high pressure crevice flusher blasts, ( on the high pressure blast , " return stroke " , water will be sucked through filters, and re-fill the piston/cylinda, in around 3 and 1/2 seconds, ) and the other 2 -4 rams / piston / cylinders will also be used to filter water, I expect or hope the blast of water will be strong enough to unsettle the balance of the excavator when applied, which i hope will be adjustable.

Rough drawing of manifold attached " in "contour with the back of the bucket, shown in light blue, Please note, gray hose is high pressure clean filtered water hose to manifold, which will act as ( 1) the high pressure jet, ( 2 ) low pressure clean water supply working in conjunction with " shock proof " zoom camera and light source, ( red hose ) the idea is if I feel a crevice with the bucket teeth, I locate the the bucket and settle the bucket near and on a suitable angle, knock down the excavator idle , remotely kick the processing unit into idle giving low pressure clean water, and suction that will not rip my head off, and watch the screen in front of me, I am guessing, I would see a bright light and dirty dark water, until the low pressure clean water flows pass the camera, as the clean water " displaces " the dirty water, I would see the back of the bucket first , quickly moving down the the bucket to the teeth, then a good well lite, zoomed view of the crevice, ( width of the bucket and a few feet behind the bucket, still being able to move the bucket around slowly, If I see the need i will shut down the excavator and climb down , reach under excavator steps and to get weight belt / tool belt , hooker face mask, and a good length of flexible suction hose and climb down into the muddy water in work hole, work my way over to the bucket, attach suction hose to suction manifold, find nozzle move into low pressure clean water / well lite / high diver visibility crevice area behind bucket, and clean crevice,
Please also note, this concept is very relative to my area, and river gravel beds with a possible equal percentage of fines and over screen size rocks, most probably not suitable for beach sands only, ??. although , where there is a will. there is a way, :confused:
( 2 ) is suction ect, will post before i loose it. back today, I hope.

dredger
00:29:09 Fri
Oct 16 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
I have got gremlins in this computer, :confused:.

lost another one, :confused:.

Start again, ( 2 ) is suction ect,
Problem with my area is bedrock can be shallow at times, which is a pain if ya using eductor jet or a big gravel pump suction type concepts , big problems with starting /stopping water flow in the suction hose, when the bucket is lifted out of the water, ( 6" - 8"hose ) so i will be going for a simple ( oversized :devil: ) wet - dry vac concept, I mean this is going to be a mean wet dry vac,

Points of interest concerning a wet and dry vac concept,,
I will not have to worry about starting and stopping the high velocity flow of water or air in the suction hose,
Sorry again, more of this post is trapped on another window, frozen in time, ??>
Here is another rough drawing of the " suction manifold ", inside the bucket,
,

Again, Gray hose is high pressure/ low pressure, Blue hose is suction , Red line is Camera and lighting,


dredger
23:34:58 Mon
Oct 19 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry , still working hard to make the end of month deadline,

But , I have taken a flesh lot of pics, and loading them asap, the pics are to :confused:, explain the first ( concept ) ideas on recovering / concentrating cons using a / many " cyclonic , mechanical fluid bed " concentrators, in the suction hose before the vac Pump, that will be a few cu metres of under under screen size materials concentrated down to a few kilograms , in under about 2-3 seconds ,??. wet or dry, even if the 2-3 cu metres is mostly water, working on that,

Sorry again , gotta run , but before i go , i have a bit of blar blar for a good friend of mine who has just told me he may have a opportunity to operate a excavator, gold mining.:devil:.

He stated that he had experience with heavy machines, which got me to thinking the best advice I could suggest to him or any new guy who has no experience in either , is to spend a few bucks and get some training and a licence, I think most people can be very good operators if they learn the right way first, and it really only takes a few hours to to get your licence, and ya learn lots of little tricks that are so handy right up front, think about it this way, could you learn to drive a forklift, ??, a truck , or similar, excavators are easy ,

If i was looking for a operator, I would be impressed if an applicant with no operator experience was keen , and insisted on getting training before he started getting gold, :smile:, I would further suggest that some small mine owners want a excavator/s and a operator for " their mine" , and do not know much or anything about excavators, but they do want high speed materials handling production, by a trained operator,

Sorry gotta run, back asap.



dredger
05:03:07 Sat
Oct 24 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok, to start , new guys please don't be surprised i am do my testing / theory on a new good quality industrial wet dry vac, and concepts from a well known wet/dry vac maker, namely , their , " heavy particle separator "

For the new guys , we start at the start, I hope these are readable, and please note this conept, is about extracting all materials before they damage the pump,


testing,

dredger
00:38:08 Wed
Oct 28 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
So it is a simple concept that is used allot, attach it to ya big vacuum cleaner and catch most of the heavier bigger materials in this drum, I use my vac wet and dry so I don't think sucking wet materials would be a problem,

Next pic concept is a smaller version of the previous separator, which has a fascinating more truer cyclone ic ( at least more visible ) operation,

Please note, sorry for the short pic, but you will see the hole pic gadget soon,
please also note, on the right of the pic you can see the fine plastic screen filter, black , ( inside clear storage container, through which the ?? filtered air escapes or is sucked through, and dust ect is caught, this turbo duster is placed at and in line with the vac handle,
,
testing.


dredger
01:20:45 Wed
Oct 28 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok, so I did that and vaced up some dirt, off the shed floor, basically paint sandings,tar grindings, metal grindings, light weight sg, I then removed the clear outside container, twist and don.t drop it.


And attempted to shake down the heavier metal grindings, and raise the lighter remaining materials to the top, in a similar motion to panning, and yes it was clear that the lighter materials came to the top,heavier materials sank to the bottom, worked the same when I tested in a pan, bring the light stuff to the top,

Please note these theories are basically only at the early stage,
testing,






dredger
02:47:15 Wed
Oct 28 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
So i am thinking , this concept even on a large separator , about 3 and 1/2 cu yds, I would only have to scale up suction velocity, and volume,/ hose size to 8", and also add a trap door mechanism to quickly dump those materials into a hopper to be further processed,

Now I previously mentioned Cyclonic mechanical fluid bed concentrators, which would be placed in front of the above heavy particle separator, and behind the suction nozzle and hose,

Or sorry, point of interest here is I am thinking big, 2 x excavators and a 40' container processing plant and showing very small size concept prototype in pics, please note I will make modifications to see if i can get this concept working, at this stage , well I am at this stage,

testing

dredger
03:45:30 Wed
Oct 28 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
So in Red, from vac nozzle . screen cover is that ,it covers the

Sorry back asap.

lsfog
16:13:08 Wed
Oct 28 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey Dredger your "vac" idea is close to ONE of my many winter works projects.
I'm currently working an inside river bed / bench which is a fair ways from the water [too far to pump - at least for me].
I have a small gen set and a real good two inch wet / dry vacume.
Same general idea as yours -- shop vac + 2 inch hose > interceptor bucket > smaller 1 1/4 inch suction hose necked down to 1 inch to avoid plug-ups. The buckets -- when 1/2 > 3/4's full [bad back] are then dumped into the ATV trailer thru a 1/4 inch mesh screen. Just before the trailer is ready to fold up like a cheap suitcase I would transport the material to the water & sluice / lawn chair / beverage cooler / shade umbrella -- for processing.
The issue I'm trying to overcome is that the coyote holes are getting so deep that the shovel isn't doing the job.
I'm to cautious [ok chicken] to get into the hole cause if the roof comes down I'd be stuck and ---- well you can guess the other word..... It will be a titch slower than the shovel but after moveing 4 ft of so - so material I'm finally into the good stuff. comments? suggestions? recommendations? are appreciated.

Au_Seeker
00:01:49 Thu
Oct 29 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Isfog,

Why not get a small (as wide as the coyote hole and 3' to 4' long) piece of heavy gauge corrugated steel sheeting (I have used this material to pour a concrete slabs over an open space spanning 4' to 5' wide) and then support it with 4-4X4s to keep the roof of the coyote hole from collapsing, then it would be safe for you to go into the hole to dig more material.

Skip

dredger
01:54:49 Thu
Oct 29 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey Isfog,excellent, it is working, it is a good idea, specially if ya shoveling off overburden on dry / damp bedrock crevices in a dry river bed,too , and generators are great, no foot valve troubles, pump troubles, EPA, ect ect, quite too. higher velocity in the suction hose, if you think about it , vacuum cleaners block at the nozzle, but I don't really get many blockages in vac hose, very different with a suction dredge in a river, lots of blockages in the wet hose,

No mate, I don't think ya chicken . I think ya clever like a fox, who are very cautious, like old mine shafts, new guys please note, holes are dangerous especially when there is not alot of people around, BEWARE.

" It will be a titch slower than the shovel ", mate if ya think about it , who is going to get more tiered first, the guy on the shovel , or the guy is just pocking around with vac cleaner suction pipe nozzle, :devil: plus one day you might move up to 4" all round, then we will see if a shovel is faster.

OOOOOO, got a suggestion for you, you have a bad back, Please note i am assuming
when 1/2 > 3/4's full [bad back] " are then dumped into the ATV trailer thru a 1/4 inch mesh screen ", you are lifting these buckets, in particular when you empty the interceptor bucket, it is a fiddly operation shutting down, undoing the clips , empty the interceptor bucket , reassemble, how about you mount the interceptor bucket low on the trailer, and modify and fit a trap door in the bottom of your interceptor bucket, ( spring loaded, ) then when ya half or 3/4 full, you just pull the trap door lever, and the material falls onto the screen, , ???. you would need extra length of hose, ??.
Are you finding small mud balls or dry balls of materials in your " interceptor bucket " ,????. or going over ya screen, ???.
Love to see under a scope what is in the vac filter, ( assuming it has a paper / felt filter,)

"" I'm finally into the good stuff."" good on you mate,

Isfog , I think you are really on to some thing with ya coyote holes, and i was thinking to myself I could build or you could build a remote controlled coyote digging miniature mini miner, small 2' long x 1' x1' with small tracks, strong electric ( generator,) robotic digging smaller dia hole the ya usual coyote, 20 -30' of electrical umbilical lead to a control box and tv cct screen attached to the lawn chair / beverage cooler / shade umbrella . your existing vac set up plugged into the rear of the ?? mini remote control coyote digger,
Trick here is what about bigger then vac screen size rocks, ??. in the way, ok. dig around them, or just digging out some fine soft round that can be easily vac ed up, ??, and move the bigger rocks into the hole you have dug,

Sorry but i am running out of time, gotta go soon, so quickly , I suggest one of the above plastic mini interceptors may be of a great advantage to you and your operation as you explained it ,

After the mini interceptors above has been modified and tuned from a separator /interceptor, to a " straight through cyclonic mechanical fluid bed concentrator ", ( please note I have not got it working yet but it has many years of thinking behind it ), so if it worked,?? or can be got to work, you could mount this light weight plastic concentrator , in the vac line/hose,close to your coyote hole, and light sg materials/rocks would enter and leave though same size inlet / outlet, and heavy sg /gold would due to it heavier Specific Gravity would be concentrated , in the bottom in plain view to you though the clear plastic container, you will be able to see any build up of gold through the plastic, immediately, and perhaps following or keep digging in the direction or layer that you are seeing the gold building up in the plastic container, ??.

Sorry mate, gotta run, have you got any pics ??, please, dredger.



dredger
00:00:26 Wed
Nov 11 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Back to last pic, sorry been real bussy,



The pic shows 3 plastic vac separators, to convert them into a possible concentrator prototypes to test, asap.

Options for use,

1, finely crushed or milled materials, just vac the materials as they are being milled, passing through a number of of this concept, ( cyclonic concentrator with fluid bed ) ,then into secondary recovery, or storage to be further concentration of your choice,, please note , it would be great if this concept works 99.9%, but , 80% would be useful % of gold caught near the nozzle,and gives especially in number 3 concept.
2, gold in beach sands, perhaps screened under 1/4",- 1/8” –1/16” ??.using dry / wet beach sands,also in a wet dry vac concept,

3, full 2 x 30 ton excavators, with 40’ containers , cyclonic concentrators and cyclonic separator /s ( two just to make sure nothing get into the air pump, 8” in let /out let. 2 to 4 feet dia, by ?? 4 feet high, Ό “ screen materials wet / dry vac concept,

Not eight inch floating dredge, maybe, blockages would be a worry passing the cyclonic concentrator, guessing it might work well on larger bits of gold, if no blockages,also drought eductor jet would be suitable,

Back to above pic, please note screen cover, the screen being the original exit of path for the air flow to flow,was fine hole screen now blocked with perhaps tape, or metal sleeve, I will then drill the original base as large as possible, which will then allow the air flow or vacuum to pass though the much larger hole, so the material enters the vac nozzle, proceeds to the inlet of the cyclonic chamber and and is spun around the inside of the plastic container, looses velocity and builds up in the base of the container, where it is again affected by the cyclonic action coursed by the spinning volume of vacuum and light SG materials drawn or lifted up from the swirling / spinning vacuum to and out the outlet, which is the “ adjustable metal tube extension, depth of materials maintained in the container is adjusted by the length of the metal tube, please note Number 1 in purple color, indicates some thing like a paint stirrer, to provide movement and or fluidity to the materials ( please note number 2 in yellow could be a form of elect vibration, to cause fluidity in the storage area, just out of reach of the vacuum at the tip or close to the metal tube outlet, guess ,guess, to further ensure the materials entering the container from the nozzle stay separated from the materials already passing through and in the fluid bed, I am designing a “ inner case “ ,
PLEASE NOTE , inner cone or sleeve is fitted inside pro to, held in center position, by ?? very small legs , not shown, also adj. Up and down,

1, is green line showing materials traveling around the inside the container, and falling, due to cyclonic affect,
2, is green line showing materials travel around the inside the container and fallen out side the inner cone, and continue falling until 3,
3, is where the heavies and lights are in the fluid level in the storage area, please note, mechanism to create the fluid bed is not shown,lights and heavies separate,
4, is lighter Sg materials rising and enter the hole in the base of the inner cone / sleeve,
5, is the spinning materials inside the inner cone, with a centrifugal force lifting the materials to 6,
6, is the adjustable metal tube,and mouth of exit,
7,is lighter materials traveling in a high speed spiral being sucked up, please note, mauve / purple.
8, is old original dust screen , covered and with the tube forced inside the black plastic, Adjustable,
9, is the distance the metal tube is inside or even just above the inner cone / sleeve, don’t know until testing,
10, is the height the inner cone /sleeve is above the bottom of the original plastic container, don’t know till testing,

My Line of thought is it will work , finding the correct specs for small proto will be fun,
Also lines of thought as to the size and weight of heavy metals ,that can be subject to high velocity cyclonic forces, back asap, dredger


auric50
22:39:29 Wed
Nov 11 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
dredger these blowers out here at the lightning ridge would be ok for sucking they do use them for dewatering claims some times , but they can lift dirt from 60ft deep and truck hour no problems (10yds)
loose wet gravel would fly up
there are odd 6 inch ones out here most are 9 inch,

flagged that claim on the mann got one in nz now
more miner friendly than oz

cheers



dredger
21:44:21 Thu
Nov 12 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
:smile: tooo right auric, exactly where I seen it working, ( and Cooper Pedy, ) Funny they called a blower when it is all about " sucking materials,":confused:.

Mate please think about this, bigger blower , 17 foot lift, 30 foot of hose, and very very little chance of blockage at the screen, under ?? 1/2" maybe under 1/4" screen size materials only. bigger motor, maybe twice the velocity, I am trying for :devil:, 2 1/2 yds in 2-3 seconds, but one yd would be something to work with,

Yes mate, " more miner friendly than oz " , but, form my experience , of what i was doing , most were very friendly, and when I get a chance I will post some paper work to show you, times are changed mate, 1987 , ( whats that , ??. ) 32 years ago, they full stopped us fast water dredging, change the method of operation and totally change the outcome, dredge with a excavator / s , insignificant environmental effect,

New Guys to Opal Mining please note auric is referering to 10 yds of digging tunnels to get the materials to suck up,

great to hear ya in NZ, i loved it, NZ miners are great people,

Mate, Sorry gotta run, heaps to do , phill.

Ps, is Ian Bedford still in the mines Dept, had some
great experiences with that guy, good guy too,please if you see him, say hello for me,

Phill Burridge.Dredge permit 1213 Sofala Bathurst. 1989. Sorry , can't find my opal mining course and lic Number, ( the Ridge ),1996,?, around there,

Sorry , I double copy /paste, gotta run , no time to fix, back asap.


lsfog
05:34:35 Sat
Nov 14 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey Dredger I appreciate your comments and recommendations. While your mini remote may be a bit out of my league the -- give your head a shake -- suggestion for just putting the vac into the ATV trailer -- OK I can work on that one. Thanks. The only issue may be the extra lift that the vac has to do. BUT hey it's worth a try -- no / low cost soloutions may = big returns --- especially in the back department.

tomcat_0
01:21:49 Sun
Nov 15 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Isfog,

Meaning no disrespect, but shouldn't your question be the start of a new thread?

I say this because vacuum theory is a complicated study for the application to which you are suggesting. It requires massive equipment, that so far has not been suggested or considered in this thread.

The new thread could be: the application of the principles of vacuum theory, in the separation of solids of varying specific gravities.

Dean

lsfog
02:49:45 Sun
Nov 15 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Well that just sucks Dean --- lol
Yes for sure more science would be appreciated.
I tried a real small version in the back yard and the results were mixed at best.
While I was in the top -- very dry stuff -- everything went ok especially concidering the vac I was useing was 1/4 the strenght of the big one.
Then as I dug / sucked down the ground got moist-er.
The hose then plugged when the small fines bound up on the sides of the "nozzel" and the suction hose.
So after that test I concluded that the material had to be bone dry -- or water close to wash / flush the suction periodicly.
Again a much larger vac may change the peramiters.

peluk
20:47:45 Sun
Nov 15 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
"..Funny they called it a blower."
That comment caught me dredger.This past summer I was describing my plan to stand at the top of a trench in the sand.I would be sucking the material off bedrock from a height of maybe 13 feet.

The water level in the trench would have to be kept down with pumps leaving enough for bottom visibility and a lifting or transport medium.

An engineer involved in dredging was saying that it's not a problem.He said he could design a system using air that lifts very well drawing the material up in a process he called "entrainment".He said he could design a system for me and he already sells them as well as uses them.

I let him get away however.I have to stay focused on what I am doing now.He said the compressor does not have to be huge but I believe the size was still beyond my means at present.
Before I get to that,my thoughts are on stabilizing the trench walls and I keep seeing expensive trenchboxes.That would involve a large excavator to place and lift them.

dredger
03:16:51 Mon
Nov 16 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Hey Dean, mate, with all respect, I suggest this line of thought , Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator has many, many different sub titles or different relevant mechanisms, but they are all relevant to Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator , and prototype testing of those concepts, which will hopefully apply to any size wet / vac operation, hopefully resulting in a new methods for us all.,

unfortunately, I am extremely pressed for time, ( good news is I am nearly on top of it, ), people to who I owe e-mails please understand , asap. sorry,

Peluk,
Yes mate, allot of different names, and methods,
While I am here peluk, please let me say when I get talking to someone I respect allot, and a legend to me in his own time, I tend to try and give my best info and effort for the new guys, so please don"t think i am trying to or applying any pressure to or at you, please,

Ouch, pumping out water, I wonder if you location / method could be " drained " as you work, which is really relevant to the fall of the bedrock, remembering my river is high in the hills, ( and draining is easy for me ), but if you think about it , it is basically the height of the bed rock in front and behind the work area,, :confused:, Is the or ya creek flat, ??, can you trench all of most water off or down stream, ??.

My suggestion is still with the blower concept ( as referred to by auric for opal mining, and as he says it works wet or dry, , only at a scaled down size to suit your operation, and in the future maybe you can convert or build a " sucker bucket " to your hoe, ?. along with some good drainage practices, ?.

Also, Your hoe is a nice little machine, and with minimum $$ and effort could have another use, ok, if you can picture this , you dig you get to where you want to suck materials, the hoe is left aside, sitting idle, ya hoe is hyd, fit a extra control valve and piping to the bucket, hang on a chain from the bucket, a small hyd motor which drives a small say 3" or maybe 4" / sludge / gravel pump, ( made by your self, ( hyd drive motor off a one man hyd post hole digger should be close, and cheap,, )?? . so you dig the hole hook up the chain and lift the pump and hoses into the hole, the hoe motor run the sludge / gravel pump, materials possibly screened 2" or smaller ,your choice, ? . materials a pumped out of hole with a materials water percentage / water volume to run to suit your multiple boxes, ???.

As you say, " my thoughts are on stabilizing the trench walls and I keep seeing expensive trench boxes.That would involve a large excavator to place and lift them. ". and I agree, and suggest with practice and experience you would be a able to batter and pat pack unsafe areas where you are actually on the bedrock with unstable walls, yes extra time, but with a back filling line of thought in the method, ( moving materials as short a distance as possible, ), and hoe operating experience, you should be able to make the immediate area / bedrock safe to work, I would also suggest with good drainage practices, ( if you can apply them to your area, ) will tend to firm up the surrounding gravels, as they dry out, as the work progresses,

Also diverting the flow away or around, is part of the drainage concept, my experience is to be able to dig a relevant size trench around the work hole, and closely bypass the work hole, without that main flow draining into my work hole,
Three ways of doing this,
1. dam the flow ahead of the work hole, and pump and pipe the flow around and past the work hole, ensuring no seepage back into the hole from the rear,
2. dig a trench, as long as it takes, and line the trench with canvas in ensure no leakage into the work hole,
3, dig the trench in such a manner to cause the silt in the materials being dug, be left behind to act a seal against water seeping from the flow into the work hole,
So I start the river flow bypass trench up above the hole area, not in the flow but a back a little, I dug in a manner to cause all the rocks / gravel coming out of the trench to be washed, water will Sept into the trench from surrounding damp gravels as I dig it, and as I move back , that water level drops, please note the water is very turbid and there is very little flow, leaving almost all silt and fine gravels to settle where they are dug, trench can be 30 or 60 feet long, once the trench is dug, natural drainage will further lower the water level again, returning to the start of the trench i will choose a site a little down stream, and using rocks , stick and logs I build a dam a few feet deep, until the flow backs up and " slowly " overflows into the start of the trench, that flow should be keep slow, so it does not flush the settled silt in the trench , then increasing to full flow and running clear water, I would suggest digging a work hole next to this flow causes silt in the trench to compact and seal that flow from uncontrolled seepage, ( into the work hole, ),

Hey Isfog, thanks for your insight there, and I agree mate,
" Again a much larger vac may change the peramiters ".

Maybe it is time to consider moving up in HP and production,

I have experienced a 10 HP home made 4" , woof, lots of grunt, should handle ya sticky materials ,

Sorry guys gotta run back asap.

peluk
20:55:55 Mon
Nov 16 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Thanks for the thoughts dredger.I lost my lengthy response even after we discussed that posting problem.

In brief,the area is below sea level.It's a different ball game.
I'll keep you posted.

dredger
04:29:09 Fri
Nov 20 2009
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Sorry guys,

bad computer, back asap.

dredger
03:44:07 Mon
Feb 8 2010
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok, no 5 computer is working, I think,:confused:. for now,
Sorry been bussy as with life"s probs, and still am, will do what I can, asap, dredger.

AKWhitey
06:46:45 Mon
Feb 8 2010
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Rough drawing of manifold attached " in "contour with the back of the bucket, shown in light blue, Please note, gray hose is high pressure clean filtered water hose to manifold, which will act as ( 1) the high pressure jet, ( 2 ) low pressure clean water supply working in conjunction with " shock proof " zoom camera and light source, ( red hose ) the idea is if I feel a crevice with the bucket teeth, I locate the the bucket and settle the bucket near and on a suitable angle, knock down the excavator idle , remotely kick the processing unit into idle giving low pressure clean water, and suction that will not rip my head off, and watch the screen in front of me, I am guessing, I would see a bright light and dirty dark water, until the low pressure clean water flows pass the camera, as the clean water " displaces " the dirty water, I would see the back of the bucket first , quickly moving down the the bucket to the teeth, then a good well lite, zoomed view of the crevice, ( width of the bucket and a few feet behind the bucket, still being able to move the bucket around slowly, If I see the need i will shut down the excavator and climb down , reach under excavator steps and to get weight belt / tool belt , hooker face mask, and a good length of flexible suction hose and climb down into the muddy water in work hole, work my way over to the bucket, attach suction hose to suction manifold, find nozzle move into low pressure clean water / well lite / high diver visibility crevice area behind bucket, and clean crevice,
Please also note, this concept is very relative to my area, and river gravel beds with a possible equal percentage of fines and over screen size rocks, most probably not suitable for beach sands only, ??. although , where there is a will. there is a way,


Are you running the wiring for the camera through the front of the bucket? Would think that would wear out very fast. Where is the camera, and the wiring?
AKWhitey.


dredger
04:29:17 Tue
Feb 9 2010
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Are you running the wiring for the camera through the front of the bucket? Would think that would wear out very fast. Where is the camera, and the wiring?

Ok, sorry , by "front " I envisage the camera wiring would enter the bucket more or less on the top of the bucket, and out of harms way when working the bucket in rocks ect, the high pressure manifold, [ 1" TO 2" THICK PLATE ] welded to the back { outside upper outer half of the bucket }, the camera and wiring would also have or be slid inside a metal pipe inside the manifold, the metal pipe would insulate the wiring from pressure/shock, and the covered wires from the camera would run from the top of the bucket onto and up the dipper stick, ( big arm that holds bucket to boom, ) then run wire along boom to cab, Wireless is also an option,
I would like to be able to quick release suction/pressure hoses from the processing plant to the excavator as quick as poss, at times when the ecavator has to remove trees ect, that will get in the path of the operation,
I will post, back asap, with more,

dredger
07:00:46 Tue
Feb 9 2010
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Computer seems to be working, :confused:'

Also, the operater would be aware at all times that the camera is mounted inside the manifold, actually right up inside the manifold, and also be aware to dig with the bucket more " open ", which will direct the high high pressure jets of water " down " onto the bedrock, blowing the fines /gold forward through the bucket teeth and hopefully into the suction inside the bucket, or possably just blowing them higher up the work face, I would suggest that I would have to lower or reduce the high pressure jet to a pressure that will not blast the work face apart, but that would be adjustable,

Wireless would also allow the operater in the processing plant, 40' container on tracks, ( slew and tilt ), to see what the bedrock looks like,as the excavator operater checks for gold in crevices, ect,

Wireless/cameras could also allow the excavators operater/s to see what is happening inside the processing plant, as well as the operater/s in the processing plant, if the processing plant is not a robot, operated by the excavator operaters, wireless, from the excavator/s, :devil:,
Also please consider this line of thought , the camera, used in the processing unit, lots of them, eg , a camera mounted close to the processing plant " hopper", ( front ) is also routed via a computer , the computer is programed to see ( and react ) to the colour of gold, ( actually most of the colours of gold/Pt, ) , similar to camera/ computer USED IN sorting of freshly picked apples, which are sorted by a computer to colour, as well as size,
So the bucket ( 2 cu mtr ) drops a 3' rock in the hopper , the oversize or maybe down to 1' rocks ???. are quickly screened, and " roll in front of a camera " , of course the camera would see a 3' nugget, as well the computer is progamed to or to watch or see, specimens, or gold vains in large rocks, ( as that is the likly scenario for my area ), the confirmed target rocks would travel a further few metres to allow time for the computer to think AND ACT , and be diverted into storage areas, all other oversize rocks would be " dropped or roll out "of the processing plant in front of the tracks to back fill the hole, and provde a ramp or road for the processing plant tracks, please note , in my situation/experience the rocks are pretty well washed, as well the jet of water, and the suction will pretty much ensure very nicly washed rocks for the camera, ( in my area, ),
Bit of luck , my Senior Software Developer, and I will be nutting out the finer computer details asap, I only have to fly 1,000 miles, and drive 3,000 miles to make it happen,
It would also be my intention to screen the undersize and then pass each under more cameras, if only to show the computers, ( will save me looking ) who ( the computers ) will possably recover, or atleast keep count of the gold entering and passing out of the processing unit, asap.via a graph on a computer screen for the finer gold, ??.


dredger
23:48:20 Tue
Mar 2 2010
Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
Ok,bad news, flew a thousand miles, drove a thousand, but didn't make the last 2 thousand , good news, this computer seems to be working ,unlike the last, but too much to do, will post asap. dredger,

ps, still working on rough drawing of bucket, sorry.



Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.
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