The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
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pascalfortier
16:35:12 Mon
Oct 4 2010
The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Hi Robin!

I know you are busy, do you have a date in mind for your Giant book or can I pre-order and receive an unfinished copy? ( paypal or credit card )

I prefer a numeric copy but I will take a hard copy if you like to go that way.

Thanks
Pascal


dungbeetle
08:45:55 Tue
Oct 5 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Yeah me too, it's been available "in the next few days" for a while now! Just release the bloody thing already! : )

Cheers

Muley
08:50:41 Tue
Oct 19 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Try this link to Steppe's website. He is working in a place that has very poor communication so if you send him a email don't get frustated if he don't get back to you.

http://www.mine.mn/index.htm

Happy diggin's
Muley

Steppegold
05:39:11 Thu
Nov 11 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Oops - :embarassed::embarassed:

Sorry folks. Everything was ready, and then it unraveled. Here is the groaning saga, hopefully with a happy ending.

Once I did print it, just to get the feel of it. Never, ever try to print 1,700 pages back to back on a scanner, that was a real dumb idea.

The next idea was simple enough. To put the book as a CD via Amazon and such-like. All that needed was to air freight them a stock of CDs, and get the book a ISBN number so that Amazon could index it. That idea hit a brick wall, as Mongolia still has some vestiges of the former command economy. For anyone to publish anything you have to registered to do it. OK, sounds easy. Well, not quite. To register my company (Eco-Minex International Ltd, the name chosen so I would remember the short version EMI which unfortunately Mongolians call eee-my), as a PUBLISHER was a no-no. Its not in our Founding Document under the Foreign Investment Law, so no-can-do.

Plan B, just get an ISBN number. This is a global system. Er well, no-can-do in the UK as I've no address there. No problem as there is an ISBN office in Mongolia. After Chimee tracked down the office, the person was successively away, out, sick, on leave, vanished etc. for months. Finally met, only to be told, nope, ISBN numbers are only given to registered publishing companies, which EMI is not.

Plan C was to do a load of CDs, and use a marketing outfit in the next block to distribute it worldwide via their internet shop. But, after allowing a cut for the internet shop, the cost of CDs, packaging, international postage etc, and the lag time of getting it to a customer, forget it.

Plan D was next. [Steppe, are you going to do the entire alphabet??? Ed]. Er not quite. Simple solution, make it a download and people buy it online via a secure merchant account. That neat idea bit the dust when we took into account it would take 5 hours or so to download it from the Mongolian-based server we use (magicnet.mn which works like clockwork but its a slow clock). We could move the website and/or the download site to the USA or the moon and it would of course be quicker. Might do it, and then after being smug after making a pay-page on the site that the security could be bust by anyone, the idea was dumped.

Plan E is a-l-m-o-s-t ready. We are talking to a US based internet co that will do a seamless merchant page for us and will do whopping downloads fast to customers.

So it looks like the Gold Miners Book will be out real soon, assuming... well we are trying.
:gonetoofar:

:confused::confused:

------------------

Meanwhile I've been on a bit busy, involved in all sorts of strange stuff. More on that later.

Steppe

DanAK
05:57:38 Thu
Nov 11 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Thanks for the update, and all your hard work on the book, I will be patiently waiting whenever it becomes available.


kevyluvu
06:37:17 Thu
Nov 11 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
My friend has setup multiple websites with Paypal. One of them for a photographer to sell prints. If it's prints or PDF's it's all 1'and 0's so it just about enough bandwidth. Sounds like this company you're in contact with has got you covered, but if you need additional info I can give you his contact info via PM.

-Kevin

kringle_mining
15:36:51 Thu
Nov 11 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Sound like you should bind it by volumes 1-5 . From personel experience, If a book is opened enough the back ends up cracking and throwing pages out. It is worse with thicker books.

There is definitely a market for a mining book at this day and age with the inner city beginning to bend their 401k, computers, mortage and suit suits into plow shares and picks and axes .

peluk
06:50:32 Fri
Nov 12 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
"All good things come to him who waits."
Cheers!


pascalfortier
09:38:25 Sat
Nov 13 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Thanks

Pascal

Steppegold
06:38:43 Thu
Dec 16 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Hi Folks

We are incredibly close to making The Gold Miners Book available to everyone via Internet.

The latest excuse (Steppe, o-oh not another one - Ed) was the need to get a Company Credit Card in order to make the Internet Banking Sysytem operate. Well, after the usual signed and stamped company letters, the bank demanded to see my passport. Unfortunately that very day the girls had taken it to the Visa Office to renew my visa as 'investor'. The passport came back yesterday complete with my one-year visa. Off to the bank to collect my company VISA CARD, and hey it seems to be happening!

Having decided it will only be a PDF download from a merchant site, the distribution costs have fallen to next to nought. That's because there will be no paper, colour-printing, binding, packaging, stuffing parcels, stamps and the rest.

What price then? How does 20$ a copy sound?
- Less and its hardly worth me bothering.
- More and I'd put off folks with scant cash to spare.

I'm not being entirely altruistic. The theory (and it could be rubbish!) is that if the price is low enough to attract credit card holders to buy it, then it might sell lots.

Quite a few AGF members received a freebie CD copy quite a while back, in recognition of supplying photos and info.
[If you'd like a free copy, and help to make it a better book, then listen up!

The text and layout is complete, including about 5,000 photos, but I would like to add a FEW MORE! If you can supply a picture, you get a FREE copy, plus an acknowledgement in the caption below the picture and your website URL if you have one. Please make sure you have the copyright.

The deadline is Tuesday 21st December 2010 when - assuming I can get my head round the banking system, the book is published on the Internet.

Here is my Wish List:

CHAPTER 2 - GOLD IS WHERE YOU FIND IT
p.23 - 2 pics of Nome and/or Oregon coastal gold placers, e.g. beach scene with wash-plants.
p.24 - 1 pic of gold under the sea.
p.27 - 2 pics of gold in glacial terrain
CHAPTER 3 - PLACER GOLD MINES
p.45 - 1 pic of ELUVIAL placer gold mine in in hot climate
p.47 - 1 pic of COLLUVIAL placer gold mine in hot climate
CHAPTER 4 - PLACER GOLD MINERS
p.71-72 - 4 pics of Recreational Gold Miners (We don't have any such people in Mongolia!), This is your chance for a pic of you and friends in a book, doin' your thing!
CHAPTER 10 - BAT FOR ARTISANAL GOLD RECOVERY
P.374 - 2 pics of BATEAs in action.
CHAPTER 11 - BAT FOR PLACER GOLD EXPLORATION
p.435 - 2 pics of gravity survey on placer area.
p.481 - 1 pic Solid Auger Drill Rig on placer.
p.485 - 2 pics R/C Reverse Circulation Drill Rig on placer
p.486 - 1 pic R/C Down-the-Hole Hammer Drill Rig on placer
p.487 - 2 pics R/C Hammer Drill Rig on placer
p.491 - 4 pics of Sonic Drill rigs on placer
CHAPTER 17 - MINE MANAGEMENT
p.821 - 2 pics of Conveyor on tracks, in a placer mine.
CHAPTER 18 - SCREENING
p.838 - 2 pics of western Derocker wash-plants
p.854 - space for extra pics of placer mine trommels in action
CHAPTER 19 - CHOOSING & TESTING A WASH-PLANT
p.884 - space for extra pics of nuggets and coarse gold.
p.891 - 1 pic of gold being used in a tracer test.
CHAPTER 20 - GETTING GOLD TO SETTLE
p.932 - 2 pics of actual turbidity currents
p.933 - 2 pics of slurry showing Venturi Effect.
p.934 - 2 pics of slurry illustrating Bernoulli's Principle
p.956 - 2 pics of gold particles illustrating friction
p.959 - 2 pics of Cheerio Effect (breakfast cereal).
p.974 - 2 pics of Quicksand Effect (e.g truck!).
CHAPTER 21 - RECOVERING GOLD BY GRAVITY
p.1013 - pics of nugget catchers (with nuggets)
p.1016 - pics of ASAT E-tower
p.1017 - pics of Kuryluk's E-tower
p.1020 - pics of Osterberg's E-tower
p.1029 - pics of the 'Pyramid Rotary Jig' of Santa Barbara (1990s).
p.1044 - pics of USA mobile jigs
CHAPTER 22 - SETTLING TOWERS TO JIGS
p.1082 - pics of Pinched Sluice in action
p.1095 - pics of Whirlsizer
p.1100 - pics of Compound Water Cyclones in gold recovery
CHAPTER 24 - SLUICES
p.1169 - 4 pics of Oscillating Sluices
p.1171 - 3 pics of Z-Sluice Boxes
p.1179 - 2 pics of Toppling Cylinder (South Africa)
p.1210 - 1 extra pic of U-Tech RP Table
p.1218 - any pic of Bartles-Mozley Muti-Deck Tables (Cornwall UK)
p.1220 - any pic of a gold Vanner, large or small (= Countercurrent Sluice).
p.1222 - any pic of Bartles Crossbelt Vanner (Cornwall UK)
CHAPTER 25 - TABLES TO SPIRALS
1215 - Goltron (extra pics needed)
1220 - pic of Vanners in action
CHAPTER 26 - CENTRIFUGES
p.1252 - pics of I-Con centrifuge washplant
p.1253 - any pic of Falcon C Bowl
CHAPTER 28 - RECOVERING GOLD BY CHEMICALS
p.1312 - pics of Recreational Miners cleaning up mercury.
p.1372 - pics of gold recovery by chlorination (bleach etc).
p.1373 - pics of Igoli Gold Process
p.1377 - pics of Tincture of Iodine method of gold recovery
p.1384 - pics of Aqua Regia gold recovery method
p.1385 - pics of Salt-Electrolytic gold recovery method
CHAPTER 29 - UPGRADING GOLD CONCENTRATE
p.1431 - pics of Rotopan, preferably in action
p.1435 - pics of McCanns Small Sluice
p.1438 - pics of Damn Fine Sluice
p.1442 - pics of Loewens Small Sluice
CHAPTER 32 - TRAINING-STANDARDS-MONITORING
p.1490 - pics of training of placer miners


Yup its a long list, but its worth chipping away at it.
Anything anyone can do to shorten the list is much appreciated. It would be icing on the cake, but anyhow the deadline is next week.

cheers

Steppe
emiweb@magicnet.mn


Geo_Jim
06:58:23 Thu
Dec 16 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steppe, I am all about gold in glaciated terrains, so I have pictures. But you need to be more precise about what you are looking for. If you want to see gold in focus, the terrain will be out of focus. I would think you are more interested in the terrain and accept on faith that gold came from there, right/ Well I have gobs of them. What in particular are you looking for?
Geo Jim

Steppegold
10:41:09 Thu
Dec 16 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Hi Geo_Jim - many thanks for the offer of help.
Yes I am "more interested in the terrain and accept on faith that gold came from there". This is in the introductory part of the book. So general views of placers in glaciated regions (or recently deglaciated) would be fine. For instance, paygravel associated with glacial till, or outwash associated with a glacier snout, or even diggings in permafrost. Anything like that would be fine.


cheers

Steppe

baub
14:00:49 Thu
Dec 16 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Good news !



popandsonminers
17:48:40 Thu
Dec 16 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steppe,

Your book is a major achievement and a bargain for anyone looking to understand available means and methods for gold recovery. Nice work! It is a good resource for prospectors, mine/mill owners, neighbors and, yes, regulators. For instance, there is a legitimate world-wide desire to minimize or eliminate the use of mercury by millions of artisanal miners. Even the miners want alternates and you’ve many examples of technology that out-competes mercury, without the associated damage to health and environment.

I don’t understand GeoWhiz’s cynicism. He makes you out to be a force from the darkside! There’s nothing in your BAT that imposes change: legislation will do that. Will your work influence that legislation? Perhaps. But the evolution of any basic industry is based on continuing improvements to both performance and environmental impacts. When industry does not self-regulate and perform responsibly, the legislators get involved and they are the least likely to choose in favor of industry. Hence, the recent events in Mongolia.

And, thanks to your hospitality, I personally witnessed the large-scale devastation in the Zamaar Goldfields: mountains relocated with monster draglines, huge river valleys dredged with bucket line dredges and in most areas, little restoration. The blatant disregard for regulations, contracts and responsible mining practices caused the government to shut down the whole industry: even those examples of responsible mining, which were refreshing to see, got shut down. I do hope it gets sorted out to allow sane mining, as that mid-level and smaller mining industry is a mainstay of Mongolia’s employment and economic health at the individual level.

Here’s hoping for a successful launch of your book and may it pay you back for all the effort you’ve put into it---


Geo_Jim
19:58:39 Thu
Dec 16 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
But, but, but Steppe,
It is easier said than done finding a placer operation with a glacier in the same picture. I can not think of a place were the two could be in one.

Lets see there is Crow Creek near Girdwood, Alaska where a glacier is close by, but way up the mountain and it might not show. I dont know, I will look.

The problem is that the ice age is over...at least for now. Southern Alaska was glaciated to beat the band, but those blokes are gone from view now. Yes, we can recognize the landscapes effected of the glaciers, but those big white globs have melted away.

Usually where you have placers in glaciated terrains are in side valleys where the glacier blocked the front of the valley. If the glacier was still around, the placer probably would not have been discovered.

I have tons of jpgs of placer ground in glaciated landscapes, but no landscape or even profile shots of glaciers in the same jpg.
Geo Jim:confused::confused:

Steppegold
22:33:57 Thu
Dec 16 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Hi Geo Jim - I was only hoping for a pic of a placer gold mine under a glacier, or with a glacier as a backdrop. As it happens, Felix Hruschka gave me some pics of an artisanal HARDROCK mine under a glacier in the Andes, but the book is about placer so I have to draw the line. Also on Google Earth there are spectacular pics of the Kumtor Gold Mine in Kyrgyzstan, which got permission via its EIA to carve a huge chunk of a glacier in order to open pit HARDROCK gold. The area is cluttered with pretty glaciers so this one was sacrificed and got blasted out of the way. The mine supplies half the national income and is a joint venture between the Kyrgyz government and Centerra Inc of Toronto (a spin-out of Cameco Inc).
(Steppe, you're ramblin' again - Ed). Oops.

OK, I'd be pleased to settle for a placer deposit or mine with a backdrop of glaciated landscape without glaciers. For instance, with a moraine, U-shaped valley, kame, esker, pingo, ice wedges, varves, or till sheet etc.

cheers and many thanks for taking the trouble!

Steppe

outnaboutnak
01:15:05 Fri
Dec 17 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steppe, I have a couple of pictures of me recreationally panning, sluicing and dredging, that I would love to share. How do I get them to you?

Steppegold
01:56:12 Fri
Dec 17 2010
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Outaboutnak - many thanks. You can either deliver them personally to me in Ulaanbaatar (!), or more sensibly send them to my email address: emiweb@magicnet.mn.

I'm chained to my desk to finish editing the Book, so its perfect timing.

cheers

Steppe

Steppegold
12:19:52 Fri
Feb 25 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Phew, as of 4am this morning, the Gold Miners Book is now polished and ready! It is rather large, with 1,807 pages, 2,497 colour photos, 670 drawings

and 6,550 references. With LOTS of help from Forum members and miners across the world, I've managed to plug most gaps and make important

corrections. I've also added a coloured background which makes it a lot more attractive. It is a 230MB PDF and I'm making arrangements for it to be

downloadable from a server in California. Now the PDF is ready, I suppose it will take a week or two to set up the download and link it to my website

(www.mine.mn).

Obviously some gaps remain for important pictures. If you have any pics of the following and are willing to share them then please contact me rather

quickly on this thread, as PM or by email - emiweb@magicnet.mn:
- i-Con centrifuge
- original Falcon centrifuge (single wall, high speed).
- Rotopan
- Keystone placer drill (as a historical item)
- turbidity current in a flume (Chimee won't let me pour slurry in our bath!)
- ASAT E-tower (definitely worth investigating)
- McCanns Small Sluice (probably the first really good small sluice for recovering fine gold and reci
- Damned Fine Sluice
- Loewen's Small Sluice (electrostatic, I have doodled a pic from the patent)
- Derocker (I've got pics of Siberian copy-cat, but not of the Canadian original)
- gravity survey in action (on a placer deposit)
- vanner in action
- oscillating sluice in action
- historic pics of thaw points for large-scale dredging of permafrost (Alaska!)
- pics of the Bema Dredge, the large bucket-line dredge in Alaska that was not quite right for marine conditions.
- Gold Cone in action (I've doodled pics from the patent, and would like to add a pic of "the real thing")
- slate Mulller table (ie from a billiard table or school blackboard)

more later

Steppe

pascalfortier
03:07:36 Sat
Feb 26 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Yeah!!!!
Thanks Steppe!

Pascal

RUSTY_HAPPY_CAM
07:40:12 Sat
Feb 26 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steppe,
I have a few pics of the I-con on my photobucket. You are welcome to use anything you need.

http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c98/RUSTY_HAPPY_CAM/ICON%20consentrator/

Rusty

Steppegold
15:47:17 Sat
Feb 26 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Rusty, you're a star!

Great pics, and important for the book. Many thanks indeed.

Steppe.

BillA
02:22:38 Sun
Feb 27 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
you just cannot let up
I got a warning for my last response to you, may be banned for this one - and that's ok too

listen guy, despite your knowledge - you are a jerk
info is info,
who do you think you are to define black and white ?
steppe is worth 1000 of you

Bill

Jim_Alaska
04:47:22 Sun
Feb 27 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Time to let up on the personal digs and slams guys. This is supposed to be fun, informative, friendly and helpful.

BillA
07:26:13 Sun
Feb 27 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
"fun, informative, friendly and helpful"

well hell Jim, now I know I'm a jerk
yes, you have described steppe; "fun, informative, friendly and helpful"
my hat is off to him

Bill

Steppegold
16:41:34 Mon
Feb 28 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
It's all about the book. Still...
Never trust the smile of a crocodile IMO.
Nothing personal.

pascalfortier
18:22:22 Mon
Feb 28 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
I like Steppe way of combining the best Recovery methods and his BAT ways (Best Available Techniques)

I think BAT is just part of today mining, and leave a really positive picture of it. If BAT is applied when Mining then nobody can hold a grudge against you.

I have being reading his posts and looking forwards his book for 3 years now, I like the level of work and energy he puts into the subject.

I might be wrong but I don't think there is anything in the last 100 years that cover 25% of the subject all in one or available that Steppe works will be.

I Hope Steppe you will get well rewarded for your work

Pascal

Steppegold
01:23:21 Tue
Mar 1 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Geowizard - I've been asking people who study how Forums operate. They say you are a Troll and a Flamer engaged in Flamebait, and "don't feed the Troll". So cheerio.

Steppe

BillA
01:43:11 Tue
Mar 1 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
congrats guy

on one hand "fun, informative, friendly and helpful";
and on the other argumentative, opinionated, obstinate, and condescending

Jim, I've said it before and I'll say it again - you need to ban this guy.
I'll vote with my feet and save the $10

Bill




pascalfortier
09:08:38 Tue
Mar 1 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
....

Have it your way, I just know I learned along the way how to go mining smart.

Yeah I could just Dump all the mercury I find, fill the river with silt and rocks from my wash plant, let that big pond of hydraulic oil and Leave a giant open hole that you can see on google earth.

I like my region and I like seeing people able to fish and dig for gold at the same spot.

When working on someone else propriety you have to return it to a good condition.

If you work on your land then it depends in what condition you want to return it and how much you want to get it for it. If you are in the middle of nowhere in Alaska, I sure would leave that pit open.

Steppe isn't saying do not use this technique. But he does says that there is what he think be a safer-cleaner way of doing what you what to achieve.

I am very looking forward too for the vast quantity of knowledge this book might contain.
I went to mining school and left for two main reasons one being forced to be more poor than a poor miner for a few years while I study and the lack of knowledge of the mining program both college and university about placer mining.

There is nothing bad about mining if you behave correctly, mining is essential.

Grand-pa time when you could dump a car in the river is over

overtheedge
16:29:05 Tue
Mar 1 2011
Re: A book for Buddhist miners?
And I always remember that book reviewers run everything through their personal bias sieve. The greater their biases, the more biased the review.

The review becomes questionable when the reviewer just can't stop reviewing. Perhaps a review for every time you read it? But if it is so questionable, the question then becomes, "Why continue reading it?"

Write your own book. I'd read it.

Steppegold
17:47:38 Tue
Mar 1 2011
A Book for Everyone
Geowizard, thanks for publicising the book so energetically. You have certainly boosted the interest and ensured that the readership will be more than expected.




Steppegold
18:01:39 Tue
Mar 1 2011
The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Returning now to the title of this thread.

Yesterday got off to a promising start in getting the Book on sale on internet as a downloadable PDF.

Using my company VISA card, I opened an account first with PAYPAL in order to receive payments, and then with Cerizmo in order to have fast downloads from California.

Then it fell apart.

PAYPAL informed me that I could only use my PAYPAL account for SENDING money, and not for RECEIVING money, which was not exactly what I had in mind!

This then tripped a robot at Cerizmo to block my account.

Cerizmo definitely remains the goal, as they do fast downloads, are based in California which is good enough for most downloaders, and give free 500 MB storage space for stuff ready to download automatically to PAYPAL purchasers.

Then just as I was figuring out how to solve this hiccup, Chimee ended up in hospital for observation for 5 days, and then the place was swarming in police as a guy had been murdered during the night on the stairwell of our apartment block, and our household were the last to see him alive. All a bit traumatic.

Everything is now on hold until Chimee comes out from hospital and we find a way to use Cerizmo properly.

I suppose it will be a week or so.

cheers for now.

Steppe





Tom_Twosocks
18:10:36 Tue
Mar 1 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
My prayers are with you and your family for a speedy recovery

Tom

Lonetree
03:00:50 Wed
Mar 2 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steppe,

I receive payments everyday in my paypal account. If you have any questions I would try to help if I could.

Jim

Jim_Alaska
03:15:53 Wed
Mar 2 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
We get payments from paypal also. I think it takes two separate accounts, one for sending money and another for receiving it.

Steppegold
07:35:35 Wed
Mar 2 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Thanks Jim and Jim...
Right, but my company is based in Mongolia, where PayPal only allows us to SEND but not RECEIVE USD. I had not realised that before. Its silly really, as Moneygram, VISA and Western Union allow both ways. But Cerizmo is designed only for PayPal.

I'll solve it soon. Meanwhile it gives yet more time to polish the text and insert more pics!

Thanks

Steppe

Steppegold
21:02:37 Wed
Mar 2 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
The one-way PayPal officially applies to Mongolia and a bunch of other countries, so it a lot of red flags being raised.

"I hope you will come out with a version of your book that is pro mining and that doesn't have an environmental agenda."

Such a book would be 50 years out of date, would be laughed at by the mining industry, scare the public and fuel the anti-mining lobby.

The book seeks to strike a balance between mining and the environment. It will therefore annoy well-meaning folk such as your good self that want to do mining without much environmental restriction, and annoy well-meaning folk in their millions who mistakenly think all mining is nasty and bad.

If the book annoys both extremes in equal measure then I guess it will have been pitched about right.

I hope that the book will help peel away the middle ground from the entrenched positions of vocal powerful extreme anti-mining greens.

Yes the book will upset many miners who are proud of their efforts, skill and experience, see no need to change, and are conservative to new ideas. Unfortunately they put the entire placer industry at risk of closure, as has happened overnight in Mongolia due to gold miners using mercury, burying topsoil, using huge static wash-plants, failing to recycle water, releasing slurry into rivers, losing tons of gold by inefficient sluices, double-treble-quadruple handling material creating what look like war zones, failing to put back topsoil, leaving open shafts by the thousand... ...and so on. In draconian regulations, the Government shut them down in a blanket ban that has also shut the handful of placer gold miners who profitably used mobile wash-plants, recycled water carefully, rear-cast waste instead of side-casting, minimise trucks, avoid big dozers, replaced topsoil and vegetation continuously during mining, and so on.

In short, Geowizard, it is definitely a pro-mining book, and sets out how placer gold mining can be expanded considerably by using efficient modern mobile methods. Good eh?

Steppe






GarryM
22:03:07 Wed
Mar 2 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steppe,

I wish you and your family well. I look forward to being one of your first customers.

Garry

SamBurgin
13:17:38 Thu
Mar 3 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
I never knew upon which side of the BAT argument I fell, until I read, and thought about, the tone and tenor of this thread.

Allegedly, insanity has been defined as the expectation of doing the same task over and over, and getting different results. That's where many of us are now; this battle has been lost folks, it's over. Period. Stick a fork in it. It is much easier to lobby against environment legislation than it is to repeal it. That train has left the station.

The new face of mining is a green face. The only thing left to do now is to decide what kind of input our side wants. It is clear what will happen if we spend our efforts trying to get the genie back into the bottle.

Geowhiz, I get your argument, but the mining community has to change the way we approach these issues. Apparently, we are not looking for middle ground either

Sam

SamBurgin
17:42:56 Thu
Mar 3 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Absolutely!!!

Mining is essential, there simply is no substitute for it. Eventually, even the Sierra Club will acquiesce to the fact that some mining must take place, even Washington will realize the regulations must be eased, all-the-while, our worthless legislators will waffle back and forth on the fence trying to garner the most financial gain from the lobby du jour.

The question then becomes, what is the mining industry, that's us, going to do in the meanwhile?

We have environmental policies in place now, and no money to pay for enforcement, therefore, we have no enforceable policies. Yet, the mining industry in the US is still acting responsibly, I believe.

Simply put, there is no good way to pick up a turd, both ends are equally reprehensible. There has to a way to accommodate both ends of the argument, without stinking up the place.

Sam


SamBurgin
22:22:07 Thu
Mar 3 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Okay, so we agree in principle that mining is good, and necessary.

This is where I tell you I'm confused. I'm confused.

We all seem to understand fiscal responsibility, parental responsibility, and the other things in this world that a person should do, so why is pushing environmental responsibility in a 1700+ page tome an issue? Assuming, that is his agenda. I don't know yet, but I will.

Every media element on earth is agenda driven; by the writer, the editor, the owner, the sponsor, the network, or the lobbyist. Even this forum is agenda driven.

Why is this particular publication in your crosshairs?

Like I said, I'm confused.

Sam

SamBurgin
01:18:55 Fri
Mar 4 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
"It reinforces the understanding that environmental rules can and should be imposed on industry."

Are you saying that environmental rules should not be imposed on the mining industry?

I understand how agenda creep can change an existing paradigm, but surely everyone in the industry recognizes that no rules, no regulations, and no awareness of environmental responsibility, isn't good for anyone, especially the mining industry.

A published report will not alter my opinion, no more than your initial, and subsequent, responses did. What did happen, was a new conversation began, a new way to look at a current issue, which is a win-win for me.

As the cloud of confusion lifts from around me, I am reminded of what a teacher once told me: You can't begin to understand your own argument until you understand the other guy's argument.

Give the industry a little credit, we're smarter than perhaps you may think. All information is good, not necessarily correct nor helpful, but part of the fabric that helps us make up our own minds.

Sam


growler
16:16:49 Fri
Mar 4 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Thwack, Geos arrow hits bullseye, thwack Geo splits first arrow in half. Spot on man. jimmy

kringle_mining
16:18:17 Fri
Mar 4 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Wiz,
Then you just move on and find an investor that allows dozers and dump trucks.....problem solved.

I have a buddy that has a gold mine down in Peru. Up in the Andes, up near the ozone in a third world province of that country. He is adament about employing miners with the shovel and 5 gallon bucket brigade. He pays them twenty dollars a day and they call him "Hefe". They feed their families with their take home pay and he will eventually turn a profit by producing ounces of Au with little overhead due to not having a dozer, excavator and diesel costs.

Steppegold
21:02:12 Fri
Mar 4 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Nice post Kringle.

Growler, about trucks and bulldozers...

DUMP TRUCKS

Dump trucks are very expensive. If possible trucks should be minimised and if possible eliminated by the miner in order to maximise profits and efficiency.

TRUCKING OF PAY GRAVEL - trucking of pay gravel to a wash-plant can be completely eliminated. This is easy if the wash-plant is fully mobile, and therefore keeps up with the mine face. Loading the wash-plant hopper DIRECTLY is the way to make profits and be efficient on capital investment, operating costs (fuel, labour, spares etc). Truck salesmen sell trucks but generally know nothing about mining. Some miners believe that trucks are essential for taking pay gravel to the wash-plant. Instead, the wash-plant should be taken to the pay gravel.

TRUCKING OF OVERBURDEN - this can be minimised, if the wash-plant is fully mobile, for then the trucking distance to the rear of the advancing washplant is short and profitable. In other words, the overburden is backfilled in a short trucking or conveyor movement, and the same for the topsoil.

BULLDOZERS

Large dozers are very expensive to buy or to operate.

DOZING OF PAYGRAVEL - dozing of pay gravel to a wash-plant is great fun but not necessary at all if the wash-plant is fully mobile.

DOZING OF OVERBURDEN - dozing of overburden is not necessary unless the overburden presents special problems such as being frozen solid. Dozing of overburden to the sides (sidecasting) looks impressive and cheap but demands wasteful double-handling as the dumps are usually smoothed or put back. Sidecasting is best avoided to make profits, and dozers are woefully inefficient at rearcasting as they cannot be profitably used for shoving material a long distance.

SMALL DOZERS - one small dozer is a good idea for final contouring of overburden and spreading topsoil, and that's all.

MOVING OF TAILINGS

MOVING OF OVERSIZE TAILINGS - dumps of washed oversize can become a headache with a static wash-plant, even burying the wash-plant. Such dumps are easy to push aside with a bulldozer, or trundled away with a front-end loader for instance. Conveyoring is also useful. But the cost, not to mention the chaos of doing this is expensive and can be completely avoided if the wash-plant is fully mobile. Then rather than a washplant getting encased in oversize, a trail of washed oversize is left behind the washplant as it advances and the trail is buried with backfill material. There is therefore no need to move the oversize. That's a useful saving on equipment, manpower, fuel, spares etc.

MOVING OF UNDERSIZE TAILINGS - a static wash-plant releases slurry at a single point. This presents problems that of course can be solved but at a cost. The wash-plant can be raised on a mound so that the fan of tailings cannot overwhelm the wash-plant. Creating the mound costs time and money, and trucks/dozers etc that deliver pay gravel to the hopper now require more fuel, time and maintenance as they now have to crawl up a ramp to feed the wash-plant on its mound. Alternatively or additionally, the fan of tailings can be regularly moved out of the way, using for instance a front-end loader, dozer or small dragline. This rips profits off your bottom line. Meanwhile the vital pond that doubles up as a settling pond and reservoir for process water is always being threatened with being choked. Clearing out a pond by small dragline, dozer, scraper etc is of course an option but again rips profit out of your bottom line.

KEEP IN SIMPLE

Growler, have a look at information on New Zealand placer mines. The Kiwi method uses a hydraulic excavator to drag along the fully-mobile wash-plant and the hydraulic excavator feeds the wash-plant directly. Trucks are not used for this. Other excavators remove the overburden and topsoil and a shuttle of a couple of trucks are all that is required to backfill the excavation (I call it rearcasting). A small dozer is used to spread the topsoil. There is no double-handling of material. The wash-plant has a rear-stacker conveyor and this disposes of the washed oversize continousuly and so there is no risk of a big mound of oversize accumulating. The tailings pond is part of the mine excavation and therefore moves forward with the mining so there is no risk of the tailings overwhelming the wash-plant.

Of course many miners like to have a static wash-plant, big dozers and lots of trucks. Wash-plant manufacturers want to sell you a wash-plant asd big as possible, but lack of mobility makes it flawed. Many wash-plants that are said to be mobile are not, such as many (not all) large jig plants and many triple-run sluice-boxes. To be mobile means to be able to move it forward or sideward with the mining every few hours within a few minutes.

Try this simulation. Set up a recreational mining trommel, start it up but lock the wheels and cement it to the ground. It performs efficiently for a while but then the distance for humping pay gravel by bucket or barrow increase and you need more people, more buckets/barrows. Meanwhile you need need more buckets/barrows/people to haul away the oversize that threatens to overwhelm the trommel, and the tailings pond is now so choked with tailings that it needs more buckets/barrows/people to clear the pond.

So, its about making profits. Having a fully-mobile wash-plant that eliminates or minimises dozers and dump trucks certainly improves profits in terms of investment required, land required, capital cost, operating cost (fuel, manpower, spares, stoppages, length of season etc). Achieving high % gold recovery is part of the answer, but as is evident it is only part. And the nice thing is that, generally, Best Available Techniques (BAT) such as these not only strengthens your bottom line, it also minimises impacts on the environment by facilitating single-handling of all material including topsoil that is replaced on a daily basis.

Bulldozers and dump trucks are BAT in the constuction industry and in some types of mining, but rarely so in placer mining.

In essence, minimise dump trucks and bulldozers if you want to make decent profits in placer mining. That demands a mobile wash-plant and an appreciation of BAT. Arrows and expertise at archery are not required.

Steppe

Steppegold
22:19:48 Fri
Mar 4 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Geowizard

Let us know when you find a better alternative to making profit at placer gold mining. That would help us all.

The book makes no reference to the stone age.

Steppe

Steppegold
22:36:15 Fri
Mar 4 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Not enough.

Steppegold
23:13:38 Fri
Mar 4 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
BAT - one example of how a mobile wash-plant eliminates the trucking or dozing of pay gravel, with huge $$ saving of capital and operating costs.


This is a medium-sized BAT placer mine, in Mongolia, with no trucking of placer, just one small dozer for spreading topsoil and no messy sidecasting of material...

The end result is rather nice...


This is a large-sized BAT placer mine, in New Zealand,
Notice the efficient layout with no trucking of placer, no sidecasting, no double-handling and continuous greening...


With a fully mobile wash-plant, BAT is quite straightforward and more profitable. There are, like everything else in life, exceptions depending on site-specific circumstances but these are rare.

BAT is global being mainly a matter of efficiency of digging, washing, dumping and resoiling, with the minimum of equipment, fuel, manpower, land and water, all compressed into a short season.

Steppe




AceHand
02:30:05 Sat
Mar 5 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Sure wish that book was out. I'm sick of our only reviewer's rant. Accusations and complaints with no alternative methods or technics is really getting old. It does no good to try to explain your side, Steppe, because Geo listens to no one except himself.
I say Geo's trying to bring an end to mining. It happened in Mongolia, is happening in California, and will happen everywhere if we simply bury our head in the sand and hope the environmental movement goes away. His only suggestion is to fight the movement. Does that mean shoot them, or just beat them up?
It's a book. Robin's entitled to his opinion. From what I've heard, I support it.
I hope Chimee's feeling better.

Tom

kringle_mining
03:36:40 Sat
Mar 5 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
It is a logos of placer geology but is not written in stone under "the thou thalt nots". You pick the chapter that may apply to you and decide if it it is financially affordable in the long term.....which includes reclamation.

baub
14:37:46 Sun
Mar 6 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steppe, hows Chimmee ?

b

Steppegold
17:48:33 Tue
Mar 8 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Geowizard

Actually the book you read was only an early draft several years ago.

This led to very helpful feedback and significant changes.

The important cost savings are from REAR-CASTING not SIDE-CASTING, and from SINGLE-HANDLING not DOUBLE-HANDLING.

These factors lead immediately to considerable savings in capital cost (too many trucks, large dozers etc); and operating costs (fuel, electricity, spares, maintenance), and considerable reduction of manpower.

The mine footprint is minimised accordingly.This cuts the cost of land acquisition. It also makes rehabilitation much cheaper and faster.

Transport of placer to the wash-plant is eliminated, with immediate major cost saving in purchasing, renting or contracting trucks, front-end loaders, scrapers, large dozers etc. Instead a hydraulic excavator loads the wash-plant directly. The reduction of traffic jams and general chaos also reduces interruptions in supplying the wash-plant.

Transport of washed oversize tailings is by rear stacker conveyor directly from the trommel, and as the wash-plant moves sidewards and forwards to keep up with its excavator, there is no massive dump of washed oversize to deal with, and no risk of the washed oversize overwhelming the washplant. Therefore there is no need for dozers, front-end loaders etc to haul away the dumped oversize at all. Instead there is only single handling.

Transport of the slurry washed undersize tailings is by discharge from the sluices into the pond. As the pond is also mobile as it advances with the mine face, the pond does not get choked with fines. Therefore there is no need for front-end loaders, scrapers, dozers or draglines to keep the pond clear. A further improvement is possible if desired by adding a slurry pump to a bin at the end of the sluices to transport slurry via a pipeline strapped to the rear stacker conveyor, reporting to a cluster of hydrocylones that dump dewatered slurry (now sludge) on top of the washed oversize as soil-forming material. Cleaned water returns to the wash-plant via a pipe by gravity.

There are of course special situations where powerful expensive bulldozers are required. I've used them for ripping partly cemented paleoplacers, and for smashing frozen ground. But unless there is frozen or cemented material to be shifted then in normal placer mining large dozers are rarely cost-effective to purchase or to operate.

Trucking of overburden IS BAT, but only if SINGLE-HANDLING. This becomes possible as a mobile wash-plant allows REAR-CASTING to be short-haul. Even then, if the distance is short enough then conveyors are likely to be cheaper thna trucks and require less manpower.

The key to BAT is to switch from immobile and semi-mobile wash-plants to fully mobile wash-plants. Even if such wash-plants operate 24-7 and achieve very high gold recovery, the huge additional capital and operating costs demanded by them being unable to move forward with the mine face means that they are rarely the best option for maximising profits and minimising impacts.

As can be seen, pursuing BAT approximates to pursuing $$$
in placer gold mining.

For this good reason, placer miners have nothing to fear about BAT but everything to gain including permission, prestige, finance and above all profit and continuity.

Within a few years, IMO the placer gold mining industry will be transformed by the miners themselves voting with their feet to embrace BAT by switching to fully mobile wash-plants to gain all that follows, and the placer industry will be bigger and more confident. (Seems good to me - Ed).

Steppe

kringle_mining
03:41:45 Wed
Mar 9 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Permission and permit are synonymous.

kringle_mining
16:09:06 Wed
Mar 9 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Look around you Wiz at all the turmoil in the world. It is mostly because people don't have work to put food on the table. Better to use B A T in a third world country and put a shovel in a man's hands rather than a rifle and hand grenades. The cull is on the horizon in some of these countries and it will spill over into the G12.

Steppegold
19:22:14 Wed
Mar 9 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Geowizard writes, "With acceptance of steppe BAT, you won't get a permit or permission if you are using a dump truck or a Dozer.".

Everyone, please check the BAT photo and see the dump trucks are busy trucking overburden and topsoil as efficient single-handling.

Everyone, please check the BAT photo and see the dozers are busy smoothing out dumped overburden and busy spreading topsoil.

Geowizard, please do the same; agree with everyone that there are trucks and dozers in the BAT photo.




Thanks

Steppe

Steppegold
22:32:45 Wed
Mar 9 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
To help everyone, here are a couple of doodles...

Here is the shuttle haul road of the BAT dump trucks - for dumping overburden and for dumping topsoil.


This is rear-casting and therefore achieves single-handling bringing considerable cost savings and minimising impacts.


Here are 4 BAT items circled:



- BAT dozer spreading topsoil on top of overburden that it has already spread on top of tailings from the wash-plant.

- BAT dump truck #1 returning to get more topsoil having dumped its load for the BAT dozer.

- BAT dump truck #2 being loaded up with topsoil being stripped by BAT hydraulic excavator #1.

- BAT wash-plant being loaded by BAT hydraulic excavator #2. This is dirt cheap to do as the BAT wash-plant is fully mobile and therefore can always be fed directly by the excavator, without any need for ever transporting pay gravel by dump trucks, bulldozers, front-end loaders, scrapers or draglines.

The round trip of the shuttling BAT dump trucks is short and quick and the topsoil is spread the very same day. The soil quality remains reasonably intact as it does not dry out and the plants, microbes and worms are shaken and stirred but still OK. There is no need for expensive storage of topsoil (double handling is expensive, and the topsoil is likely to be "lost", compacted, deteriorated and lifeless) and no need for expensive planting, as the awakened plants just grow like crazy. Green, mean, and profitable.

The round trip of BAT dump trucks allows the overburden to be dumped and spread the same day. This avoids side-casting by dozers, scrapers, trucks, draglines etc to build overburden stockpiles that later need expensive demolishing or smoothing, and then expensive hauling of topsoil followed by expensive planting. Or just leave an eyesore for Ma Nature to green over given time.

The rear-casting by BAT dump trucks means that the mine footprint is minimised to the area of land above the mineral resource, and therefore land acquisition is the bare minimum, which cuts costs and confines direct disturbance as much as possible.

Fascinating is that the most profitable method of mining in this instance, as usual, is BAT, as capital costs are cut, operational costs are cut, manpower is cut, water usage is cut, land take (footprint) is cut, rehabilitation costs are cut and aftercare is cut.

For placer gold mining, the wizardry of BAT is that by using fully mobile wash-plants the operation is more profitable and impacts are less.

Remember, the mining season is short and you don't have time or money to waste in extravagant DOUBLE HANDLING of overburden and topsoil into stockpiles and then later spreading it out again. That's a recipe for going broke. Nor does a miner have time and money to waste on needlessly dozing pay gravel, wasting time, manpower and money. Get rid of static wash-plants and invest instead in a mobile wash-plant and just fling the pay gravel in and take the gold out.
:smile:

Steppe

kringle_mining
03:01:54 Thu
Mar 10 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Wiz ,
You always have the option of not buying the 2nd edition of the steppe's book and writing your own book
Call it : " The prospector's guide to Lake Front Property in Arizona"

Steppegold
03:04:55 Thu
Mar 10 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Good Geowizard, you now see BAT for Placer Gold Miners is win-win.

Less cost, less labour, less land.

The spear-tip of BAT are Kiwi placer miners who have been doing this for years, and the USA is still lagging behind by some miners clinging to static wash-plants.

Geowizard, have you ever seen a Kiwi placer mine? The Kiwi miners never need to transport pay gravel to their mobile wash-plants and time and again make decent money where static wash-plants fail.

Static wash-plants fed by trucks, bulldozers, scrapers, draglines and front-end loaders are fascinating to operate and amazing to watch, but are history.

The placer miners are switching to BAT methods not because of any Green Agenda but because of the desire for PROFIT. As you know, the National Business Association wants business to make profits. above all else. That's why placer gold miners who are sharp about making their mines profitable prefer BAT mobile wash-plants.

Anyway, its a matter of natural selection. Static wash-plants are shockingly expensive beasts to own and feed, and are doomed to extinction. Savvy miners are voting for BAT with their feet not to save the planet, but to fill their wallets. The book will help to fill their wallets.

"the book is a manual for miners, investors, regulators and environmentalists"... quite right. BAT is "a win-win for everybody".

The only losers will be manufacturers of static wash-plants, miners who cling to the past, and green extremists. All will have the ground cut from under their feet, by excavators feeding BATmobile wash-plants.

:devil:

Robin

SamBurgin
04:19:23 Thu
Mar 10 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Batman and Robin, gotta love it!

Sam

kringle_mining
04:34:40 Thu
Mar 10 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
lol...good design Sam!

SamBurgin
21:03:57 Thu
Mar 10 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
The Environmental movement didn't send Free Enterprize down the drain Geowizard; the Capitalists of the world brought on the Enviros by ignoring their responsibilites to future generations, choosing instead to chase the last penny of profit. Free enterprise is indeed great, but it isn't free.

I'm not sure who scares me more: On one hand are the envirowackos, on the other are the folks who want no rules, no regulatuions, no inspections, nor any accountability - the destructowackos.

Or is there another axe you're grinding?

Nice Avatar, yours?

Sam









cubsqueal
22:16:22 Thu
Mar 10 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

I believe it was Steve (Herschbach) who pointed out some time ago that there are now places where a person is not even allowed to use a spoon with his gold pan, on some rivers.

Textbooks for the field of natural resource management pay a lot of attention to the value of "riparian zones". And they are, in fact, kind of the "Gardens of Eden" of a lot of landscapes. So it isn't a big surprise that land managers may have a built-in resentment to anyone who trespasses on and probably, in their eyes, "desecrates" " their" land. They seem to have the upper hand due to the way our judicial system works.

So my question is: If these land managers can't abide a spoon to fill a gold pan, what do you suppose they think of a loader in a riparian zone? I think the handwriting is on the wall.

* * * * *

I wonder if a person could get a ticket for having a spoon in his pocket?

Move over, George (Orwell).


kringle_mining
01:25:18 Fri
Mar 11 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
No Wiz ,
My mining "permit" is issued by the stateof Alaska DNR
Cross county "permits are issued by the state of Alaska DNR
As well as cabin permits and water rights etc.
and permits to move whole creeks if needed
A bond pool is used when operating over 5 acres.

Much of the Environmental movement is a fasade ochestrated by big industries to shut down a competitor.

Anwr would glut the market with oil - hire a sqeekie wheel to lobby against drilling it.

Pebble would glut copper and is stealing potential investors.....hire a environmentalist to lobby against it.

Alliances are determined by the money trail.


Steppegold
01:36:43 Fri
Mar 11 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Geowizard - thanks for playing the Joker card.

Returning to the Forum and the topic of placer gold mining...

...in your professional technical judgement as a placer miner do you believe transporting pay gravel to a static wash-plant is the most efficient and profitable way of doing it?

And try not to include too many sideloops in your reply to to bomb makers, free enterprise, capitalism, communism, socialism, environmentalism, bomb makers, Obama, European Commission and such-like.

You can of course mention any or all of these, and more besides, if you really feel you need to in order to answer a technical question.

Thanks in advance

Steppe




Steppegold
06:33:02 Fri
Mar 11 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Geowizard,

Fair question got Fair answer, thanks.

1. Freedom of choice: It isn't a matter of opinion. Your opinion or my opinion is not important. A placer miner is a business man. The doctrine of "free enterprise" dictates that the MINER should make that decision based on his business model.

"Free enterprise" is fine, but brings with it an obligation to follow rather a lot of rules in order that the free market and society can function. Being a MINER does not bring with it any additional freedoms.

"The miner has the responsibility for success or failure of his operation."
Great in theory. Unfortunately if the mining operation fails and leaves a big mess, who will clean up the mess?
If the mining operation succeeds in commercial terms and leaves a big mess, who will clean up the mess?
Should the miner be free to choose mining methods that are highly likely to create a big mess, should as mercury or large static wash-plants?

2. Regulation should not dictate methods: YOU cannot regulate general equipment types to be used in mining.
Quite right, it is up to the regulators to regulate.
The regulators are duty bound to seek opinions from stakeholders, so I put pen to paper and wrote a book that they may find useful. You might care to do the same.

3. The answer comes from a "calculation":
You recommend an Excel spreadsheet in the book. Excellent idea! This concept deserves understanding by all businessmen.

Marvelous to know you agree on this.
:smile:
Two chapters of the book are devoted to promoting EXCEL as BAT for placer gold mining:
Chapter #12 - Gold Resource and Reserve
Chapter #13 - Placer Mine Financial Plans



4. It's the only option: Many placer mining operations have limited access to water. The wash plant must be near the water. The gold may be on a bench. Many productive alluvial gravels in Alaska are not in the stream. Trucking is the only alternative.

BAT is simply the "Best Available Techniques". Obviously it is site-specific as you know.

You raise a valid point, but its overblown. I have visited a lot of placer gold mines in Mongolia that have no surface water at all in summer, and are far away from any surface stream. The common solution is to drill for groundwater, often after a bit of geophysics. Yes its an upfront cost, and yes it cost some dollars, but the operational savings are stunningly good. If after a couple of boreholes not enough groundwater is found, then some miners insert catch-dams across the dry streams in summer, in order to catch melt-water from melting snow in spring. The trick, as you know, is to minimise water usage by the wash-plant and to minimise water losses by percolation from water storage ponds (clay liners for example). There are some bizarre methods here too, such as stripping down to the permafrost and tapping the water released from it melting, and of course to trigger naled ice shields and doing the same. You can have a fully mobile trailer mounted jig with 100% recycling of water that therefore only needs a tiny amount of top up water. No need for a stream at all. Trucking is therefore NOT the ONLY alternative, and for hard-nosed commercial reasons should only be considered as a very last resort.

5. I don't need a rule book written by you or a room full of legislators that has determined from half way around the world what I need or don't need.
I quite agree. What Alaska needs is a rule book written by Alaskan regulators after careful detailed consultation with the local placer mining community such as the Small Scale Miners Committee of the Alaska Mining Association.

6a. Mining is an independent activity.
Mining is "an independent activity", er independent of what? Society? Regulation? News to me.

6b. Miners don't like having someone else dictate how they mine, where they mine and when.
True, but in that regard miners are no different from the general population of butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in not liking having someone else dictate how they make things, where they make things and when.

Its nice to know we agree on 2 Chapters of the BAT Book.

Steppe

Steppegold
21:58:01 Fri
Mar 11 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Geowizard

Good post.

What I have written is a book with 'Robin Grayson' as sole author emblazoned on the front. If you like to call it Steppe BAT that's fine by me. The phrase "BATmobile mining" also has merit.

The starting point was the EC definition of BAT, as mentioned in the Book, but it definitely is not a product of the European Commission.

I fully agree with you that the Environmental Agenda doesn't help placer miners.

What can be done?

Yes we can grit our teeth and settle in for a trench war in which the placer mining industry is slowly squeezed more and more by the relentless Green Agenda and get suddenly overrun by misguided legislators in places like California (suction dredges) and Mongolia (all exploration and mining licenses for placer gold cancelled with 135 placer gold companies effectively destroyed).

Yes we can advance legal arguments but in the end historical rights get overwhelmed by attrition expensive court cases, and ultimately by changes in laws and regulations due to over-zealous environmentalists convincing legislators.

So we need to do more, a lot more.

But that's not easy as the placer mining industry due to accidents of geology and history is remarkably fragmented across the world, and disunited even within in the United States, whereas the anti-mining environmentalists are well-funded and have truly global reach.

In my view, and it is simply my view, the placer gold industry is not likely to survive such persistence unless the placer gold industry pulls its collective socks up and embraces some form of Best Available Techniques (BAT).

Already placer miners and equipment makers have adopted BAT for high % gold recovery techniques demonstrated in the public-funded Yukon tests (Clarkson etc) and techniques demonstrated by the Mineral Industry Research Laboratory in Alaska, and great strides have been made in fine gold recovery by equipment makers and by recreational miners. Much of this North American endeavor, a mix of public and private funding, has spread worldwide and is continuing to spread. There have also been many false dawns such as Alaskans flirting with large wash-plants such as IHC jig plants that are great floating on a dredge or pontoon but barely commercial onshore due their intrinsically static nature. Some North American research into improving techniques has failed the test of time. The most spectacular of these was the Canadian research on the gold recovery by placer drills. It is now clear that churn drills (cable tool drills) while being reliable for gold values above the water table, grossly underestimate gold values in wet ground, as shown by Soviet repeat drilling using bucket drills. A second example, easy to see in hindsight, is that the Yukon tests on wash-plants, brilliant as it was, did not compare the economic returns of static wash-plants versus mobile wash-plants. This could have been a theme of the sister project in 1986 also funded by YEDA, entitled 'Program 3, Placer Mining, Material Handling Technology'. This showed that in the Yukon the cost of feeding pay gravel to static wash-plants was very high, exceeding the combined cost of stripping the pay gravel and stripping the muck (overburden and soil). Unfortunately the study then focused only on placer mine management involving static wash-plants so encouraging miners to do the same.

Meanwhile from the other side of the Pacific the Kiwi miners perfected mobile mining using fully-mobile trommels with short hydraulic sluices slung underneath, on land as well as on pontoons, that allowed remarkably low grades to be worked due to the savings on manpower, fuel and haulage. This fully mobile method of mining is not only highly efficient and profitable, by good fortune it also undeniably has the least impact on the environment. While the Kiwi wash-plants are now widespread, from Alaska to Mongolia, the 'Kiwi way' is not the only avenue for fully mobile wash-plants, and good alternatives are made in Canada, USA, UK, China and elsewhere, containing just about the full range of gravitational techniques from fully mobile jigs, centrifuges and even spirals.

It is true that BAT and its variants are seen as an extra expense and irritant to many manufacturing industries in the European Union and North America. The good news is that BAT for placer gold mining is a quite dramatic exception, according to my lengthy studies. This is largely because by adopting fully mobile wash-plants most placer gold mines can be leaner, meaner and more profitable, and cut their impacts on the environment to the minimum.

Placer gold mining is painted as the unacceptable face of the mining industry, and is therefore a very target for soapbox politicians influenced by the green lobby. Especially so as the modern placer miner is tainted with the legacy of mercury and mess left behind in the past. Little wonder that getting permission is now difficult and regulations are often designed to stop placer mining.

The placer gold mining industry, small though it may be, can and should pull its socks up regarding the environment. Thankfully, as The BAT Book shows, by switching to mobile wash-plants wherever possible, not only is the environment impact cut, but so too are the financial costs. As one Mongolian miner said to me, "our company isn't keen to restore the environment, but if you can prove it to be cheaper then of course we will". I did, and so they did.

Hopefully the BAT Book will, I hope, in some small measure speed up the process of change that has been happening already as miners switch to mobile wash-plants. However many miners cling to the past; and continue to be inefficient and messy so making the whole industry easy prey to shut-down by the green lobby, with Mongolia as a topical case in point. Here the quite spectacularly appalling mess left by hopelessly inefficient placer miners has pulled down the entire placer gold industry, taking with it the placer gold miners who use mobile wash-plants to maximise profits and minimise impacts.

But there are considerable vested interests who rely on the placer gold industry to be inefficient in order to push their products:

- salesmen of equipment companies push to sell you the biggest wash-plant possible (its their job), stressing the value of high throughput coupled with high % gold recovery. "The bigger the better" is a trap we all fall in from time to time. Unfortunately these big beasts are so big that on land they are static or at best snails, and yet demand continous feeding with pay gravel night and day to make a profit. The overheads of feeding them by trucks, dozers or whatever cripples the profit. Some makers of large wash-plants have got rather stroppy with me, when I point this out. They wriggle and say that "ah, our wash-plant may be big, but you can move it, it really is mobile". Yeah, well not in my experience or those of colleagues. To eliminate transport of pay gravel to the wash-plant, the wash-plant has to move forward (or sideward) every few hours. If you want volume, then go for a series of small mobile wash-plants and forget a large wash-plant unless its floating on a pontoon or part of a big dredge.

- truck salesmen are keen to sell you as many trucks as possible (it's their job), and in my experience they are avid supporters of trucking pay gravel to the wash-plant. I've seen a placer company get easy terms from a truck vendor for a fleet of trucks to feed its huge wash-plant. Unfortunately the wash-plant was static and so the operation was uneconomic. It ended up with the truck vendor seizing the mine to pay off the debt. Trucking pay gravel needlessly led to that miner losing his mine to the truck vendor.

- bank loan officers, when I go with them to visit placer gold mining companies who are their clients, glance at the wash-plant momentarily and then turn their backs on it to admire the fleet of trucks they gave the loan for, and half the trucks are simply to feed the wash-plant because its static. I've seen a placer company go broke because it rented a huge state-of-the-art wash-plant but it did not have enough trucks to feed the brute with.

So, in the placer gold industry, BAT leads to MORE profit and LESS impact. So far as I'm concerned that's a double whammy. Sure, nobody likes change, nobody likes being told what to do, and not everyone is keen on the environment, but all miners I've met are keen on being lean, mean and maximise profits. If you like $$$ then BAT is the way to go. If you want to dig the ground from under the feet of the green lobby then adopting BAT destroys their central dogma that placer mining is always messy and irresponsible. The armchair greens are willing to be convinced and then the green fanatics will lose the middle ground support which at present is their strongest suite. Its time we all stop grumbling and stop playing the Joker and instead seize the opportunity to stack the cards in our favour.

Have a nice day

Steppe

Steppegold
04:52:08 Sat
Mar 12 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
As I have said all I want to say, its now high time for me to move on.

Thanks to all and bye to everyone.

Steppe aka Robin Grayson
www.mine.mn
emiweb@magicnet.mn

AceHand
22:20:21 Sat
Mar 12 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Hope that's not what it sounds like.

billcosta_rica
23:36:26 Sat
Mar 12 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
doesn`t leave much room for doubt. does it ?

faaus
02:53:56 Sun
Mar 13 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
So Geowizard, would you rather be barbecued, boiled in oil or slow roasted?

kringle_mining
07:21:57 Sun
Mar 13 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Robin,

We hope you can make it over to the Alaska mining and diving supply forum. It would be nice to read your work over there. Steve has been plugging your forum.

Nothing gained Wiz :confused:

peluk
16:17:25 Mon
Mar 14 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
The views expressed here were very informative and both sides have points worth considering.To have avoided this exchange would have been a mistake.Grabbing the bull by the horns is what gives this Forum character.

cubsqueal
17:09:59 Mon
Mar 14 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

peluk, I agree.

- - - -

There are huge differences in peoples' perceptions on many topics. Live with it.

Awhile back on here, one person basically stated one of my posts stunk. I can deal with it; I'm still here.

kringle_mining
18:35:37 Mon
Mar 14 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
It most likey depends on whoes the bull and whos the grabber Chick. This BAT discussion hit a stalemate about two months ago.
Cub you get digged on 1 post but Steppe has probably had to defend about 200-300 posts or more and he has. I would say that judging by my time spent on posting threads and articles that it has to be major time consuming. And defending your premise takes even longer thought and time.
Many of my post are written to invite critique. Steppes too. But there is a difference between critique and naysay. How one geo can bash a collegue's life work and not find a single positive chapter in the book to agree upon is beyond me.

I am not for Geowizard being banned nor have I made any pm complaints to the administrator about Wiz. nor asking for his removal. My disagreements with Wiz are public knowledge.

Hopefully Robin is burnt out by explaining himself over and over on the same topic (head beat against brick wall), but he soon returns to the forum with some fresh material like he always does. And we can crunch out some ideas on prospecting with Wiz included.

My opinion is Wiz should be the heal thy self physician and work on his own projects. If his own projects met the scrutiny he gives others prospectors project's, then he would be definitely nearer the gold strike.

Chaulk this one up to the sinility of cabin fever wot?



kringle_mining
18:40:07 Mon
Mar 14 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
and Yurt fever :smile:

baub
16:20:08 Tue
Mar 15 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Sad day. Learned a lot from Steppe, hate to see him go. Will remember him as a good sort and understandable, once you got used to his accent.
His book and ESPECIALLY patience were greatly appreciated.

Thanks ,

Bob



peluk
19:33:15 Tue
Mar 15 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?

Kringle,the "bull' I speak of is the rampaging environmental preservation movement.While nobody holds mother nature responsible for the devastation caused by such tantrumes as the Mt.Saint Helens eruption,woe betide the prospector who digs a hole in the surface of the earth.

I look at it this way.Take a bicycle helmet and put it on your head.Kneel down and smack your head against the pavement.Now do the same thing without a helmet.Is that experiment sufficient to insist anyone riding a bike will wear a helmet?Insurance companies and their lobbyists would like it that way.

Let's just say,we as miners start to gain headway in the fair use of the environment.The preservationists,backed to a wall will say,"Ok,but this is the only way you will mine gold.It guarantees maximum extraction of target minerals from the soil.This will mean the minng and disturbance will be a one shot affair.Then you and your equipment will go away."
They will then cite Steppe's book as the guide for BAT.

But you say,my situation is different,or I want to use a different method.The permit issuing office then says,"We are bound by regulations...newwwww regulations.They guarantee a maximum return to the shareholders,satisfy environmentalists,and it's the BAT."

Steppe is a writer who must defend his work.I want to read the final version.It may have some good ideas.I hope they remain as suggestions.

I think it fair to fire broadsides at the work.Nobody says Geowizzard is always right.If Steppe's work is worthwhile,criticism can only raise curiosity and boost sales.

I just remind Steppe of one thing,next time you dig test holes for human entry many feet below the surface,line that hole or don't do it.:welcome:




kringle_mining
05:37:39 Wed
Mar 16 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Like I said Chick .This BAT discussion hit a stalemate two months back.
The positions of both sides have been made clear an over and over and over abundance of time.
It is time to move on with new topics before the forum screeches to a halt.

dredger
23:15:56 Wed
Mar 16 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Dang, no time to comment.

dredger.

pascalfortier
16:52:44 Thu
Apr 7 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Updates?

Pascal

popandsonminers
19:42:04 Sat
Apr 9 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Looks like Robin's book is still "just a few days away"----

http://www.mine.mn/The_Gold_Miners_Book.htm

BillA
23:13:49 Sat
Apr 9 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
a long time awaiting . . . .
I'd sure like a hardbound copy.

Bill

peluk
01:40:01 Sun
Apr 10 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Thanks Pop.Chapter 31 and 32 lay it out pretty well.In chapter 31..."We discuss how to create a mineral policy that leads to LAWS and REGULATIONS that balance the interests of all stakeholders.This is a very difficult and daunting task for government and to succeed it needs an inclusive dialogue with all stakeholders...PLUS KNOWHOW ABOUT BAT." Who knew!!! Step right this way for your bible.I said THIS way for This bible!:smile:

Chapter 32.... "How to implement policies at a local level DEMANDING a package of training standards and monitoring."

Help me that I might know.Let's not take a chance.Let's put this squarely in the hands of those that gave us the Federal Reserve.Then we can just shove the B.S.about dialogue and just bend over.
Sorry Kringle,some old guys can't follow instructions.
:devil:


pascalfortier
02:07:14 Sat
May 7 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Gold??

tenderfootminer
01:11:16 Sun
May 8 2011
Re: The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
Steepe,I was loading equipt to head top mine and ....out of a box fell another funnel shaped peice to the multi wheel gold machine I sent ya!let me know if ya want it mailed and where.:smile:




The Gold Miners Book When will it be available?
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