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kaveman
14:53:29 Wed
Mar 25 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Here are a couple of pics from the same general area showing the river at different stages. Pics are shot from just south of the old hydraulic workings(about spot 2)looking SW at the head of my bar. First pic is what you'd call normal winter flow. My bar is the ground in shadow and swinging out of the pic to the right.



Next pic is pretty much the same shot/angle during one of the more recent floods. Water rises to this level only once every ten years or so. This pic is 2006 and the water has already dropped 5' or so. 1997 was a little higher. 1964 was probably 10-15' higher still. The upper 1/4 of the bar and the old channel are submerged during even the smaller floods. 1964 probably covered all but a very small part of the bar.




My theory is that a large portion of the gold found in the river originated from the hydraulic mine above. Those operations commonly recovered 500-1000oz per acre of worked ground and were nowhere near 50% efficient, so an equal or greater amount of mostly fine gold was discharged into the river along with the tailings. That mine covered 25-30ac and discharged the tailings into the river on the outside of the bend. I imagine that the gold has mostly moved only during the major floods over the last 100yrs and the flooding river keeps it up along the outer bank as it works its way downriver. Whether that spur of bedrock can send the goldline across all that current or not, I do not know. The heavy gold line on the riverbank at the head of the bar is encouraging tho.

*Note* I think Jim Alaska gets credit for this second pic. Thought it was mine, but the pics I find in my folder show the river down a bit further. I think the road was still closed in spots when the above pic was taken and I didn't get there until a week or so later. I can just feel the boulders shaking the ground when I look at this shot!
[4 edits; Last edit by kaveman at 15:13:59 Wed Mar 25 2009]

  
dredger
01:30:18 Thu
Mar 26 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Hey kaveman,
Another excellent post with great info,/ theory, great pics too,
( Note for new guys, ), A Lot of rivers have records of river flows, ( my river charts/records goes back to the 1950's), I suggest those records can give you some ideas on gold movement,
You wrote,
Whether that spur of bedrock can send the goldline across all that current or not, I do not know. The heavy gold line on the riverbank at the head of the bar is encouraging tho.
I can not wait to hear what was really under the gravels, :devil:. what the channels or just open holes in the bedrock, might be there, you will soon get used to a sight that always gave me thrill, and that is the last look into the dredge hole you just dredged, you will know every " of bedrock, and the contours of sometimes deep channels worn smoth in the hard bedrock, or mulitpul crevices, :smile:
I agree with " Your theory " on the source of gold coming from the old mine, ( and their 50% recovery ), but do you have any info on old mines/ hard rock mining,??. up river, or knowledge of a "spent source" further up river, ???. I always like to look at the big picture, as you will see in my next thread , "dredging w/excavator part three , I have several google earth pics of my area, showing gold sources,
great info kaveman, you really like doing your home work, :smile:
Back soon,

  
dredger
03:49:53 Thu
Mar 26 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Opps, i wondered where your post went, I was beginning to think we were mind reading, haha, :confused: anyway i found it ,
You said, " Maybe it firms up as you go deeper and further back in time, but the upper levels are pretty unstable, loose and sandy " after seeing your pics, I would suggest there most probably not much left of the old shafts, except in the really hard pack in the channels perhaps, right on the bottom, best scenario is perhaps there has always been enough or too much water in the Klamath, for the miners to sink shafts, ??? , it is a possibility, I have my fingers crossed for you anyway,
As for #4,, please don't think I am being pushy with you try to get you to put a dam in, I am just suggesting ideas, for the new guys,:smile:
You wrote, There really isn't a creek on the green line,...........just a low lying damp area during the wetter months. It's got river in it during flood years, but most years it's just a few pools in early spring and most of that water is probably seepage off the hillside to the south, although there is a small seasonal creek that flows in from the south at about the midpoint of the bar.
Excellent description kaveman, I suggest the creek is well drained , suggesting to me that a filtration dam could be placed near and at creek level, and filter your clean tailing's water into the creek , which would easily drain,
Do you have a plan for getting water to the dredge hole, ??.
I also agree there should be plenty of present day gold laid over most of your gravel bed by recent floods, my line of thought is when ever I dredge a hole, I am actually planning where the concentrate of gold will be next time a monster flood flushes more gold down the river, and I can just drop in to the best concentration, real quick,
Back to No, 8 in light brown, is just my suggestion on where I would place a tailing's dam and trenches to run the tailing's water, Please note the brown line running across the base of the purple arrow head,I would dug, and perhaps dredge a trench ( blotches ) across the gravel bed , I would look for one or more channels cut deep into the bed rock, , my line of thought is it is possible that there may be a channel, and also possible that both sides of the channel are Sloped in towards the channel, with possible no gold being held on the slopping bedrock, ???, just sliding in the channel with even light floods, ??. so I would head straight for the channel and look for crevices, as I followed it,
No, 9 in blue, I forgot to put an arrow, but is to indicate a drainage trench to by pass the small rapids ,lowing both volume/ depth of water behind dam No4, and in turn, No 10 , in yellow shows extra or more dry ( out of the flow ) gravels to be moved and processed, and rehabilitated, /replaced later, I would suggest in my situation and lic conditions, I would divert all the flow down the green line/creek, and work the drained inside bend ( brown line ) dry river bed between the suggested dam No 4, and down stream to the bend near the block of land , I would be working " out of the flow ", ( having already diverted the main flow from the dam into the green line creek, ) and suggest there would be only " insignificant and minor " environmental disturbance to the dried out section,
Point of interest for the new guys, , If you dig a hole in your backyard or the back of your shopping centre back yard, please note, the dirt removed is very hard to put back in the same hole and not have a "mound " , however, putting river gravels back into a dredge hole with no mound is easy which enables a dredging w/excavator sites to be returned to the original contours is easy too, I have never heard any winging about leaving " no or very little visual " sign of disturbance at a dredging site,when rehabilitated or back-filled to original contours,
Kaveman, thanks for all your posts, and please keep posting, great learning form you thanks,

I post post the "dredging w/ excavator part 3, pics of my area, ( first pic anyway, ):devil:




  
kaveman
06:14:07 Thu
Mar 26 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

There isn't much in the general area as far as hardrock. The middle Klamath runs through a non-mineralized area, although the entire river has several tertiary benches of auriferous gravels. For the most part, there's little gold in the present river channel except in areas where the modern river cuts across or erodes the ancient river channel, or downstream of any of the old hydraulic workings which did pretty much the same thing. There are a few areas of hardrock mineralization(Cottonwood, Humbug, Scott Bar), and the river runs rich for some miles below these areas, but all are many miles above my ground.

If there are any remains of old shafts, I would expect that they would be covered over and filled with loose material that gets reworked and deposited during each flood. Deeper down there is probably cemented material from long ago that will show the shafts if we uncover any. I'm pretty sure we'll find areas of old workings, even though there isn't any sign at the surface. I know of a few spots that look like WWI battlefields with eroded ditches and overgrown spoil piles that are above the flood levels. I'm guessing those are old works. Strangely, there isn't a single cobble or boulder pile anywhere on the bar, and you see those along the river anywhere work has been done.

We're planning to stay out of the river entirely, period. Any water we need we will pump and we have enough room to drain all waters back into the bar so there will be zero discharge. That brushy area on the north bank #9, between the two brown bars,.................that's vertical from river's edge. There won't be any channeling of water on that side. The river charges through here pretty good, and the opposite side of the river at #10 is polished bedrock. Little to no material there to work. 10 to 20' of the bank in yellow is also clean; at least in the upper few hundred feet of the bar.

We would not be allowed to divert the river even if it was physically possible. Certain things can't be done here. No damming, no diverting. If the excavator bucket or track touches water, we'll lose everything we own. Same goes for any spill in or near the waterway, so Old Yeller won't get within 50' of the river. Any gold there will just have to wait. We'll keep busy nearer the middle of the bar. I still think we're going to get our first samples from the area marked #1. We'll drop back a few hundred feet for the next run and both will cut across the bar 100' or so.

  
dredger
00:46:56 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

hey kaveman,
Great post mate, you say,
" There isn't much in the general area as far as hard rock. The middle Klamath runs through a non-unrealized area, although the entire river has several tertiary benches of auriferous gravels. For the most part, there's little gold in the present river channel except in areas where the modern river cuts across or erodes the ancient river channel, or downstream of any of the old hydraulic workings which did pretty much the same thing. There are a few areas of hard rock mineralization(Cottonwood, Humbug, Scott Bar), and the river runs rich for some miles below these areas, but all are many miles above my ground.
That is completely gold source different then my situation/area, " Amazing ", i picture in my mind that bottle of Au and PGMs pic you posted, and with my bad memory remember you saying something about 1% PGMs in that area,?. and wonder where the larger % concentration of PGMS will be found, :smile:, or if in fact , there will be gold there too, ??. do you have any more info on PGMS that are of interest to you, ??. I am fully open to any suggestions or thoughts you may have on PGMs, ?. I do like the way you think , and do your homework, so what you think you know ,?? is what I would like to hear, :smile:.
My theory on PGMs that I find in my area, is a big one, haha, ok roughly, I am guessing it is " there " from something like Thermal deposition, or Meteorite splatter, blar, blar, and not from the same reason why we find sources of gold,Vein/hard rock in our area,, I suggest that is because of the "boiling/vapour temperature " difference between PGMs and Au, ect, ect, to explain the only "key " that I have been able to think of, Please note the following observations and think yellow gold,
You say , "There are a few areas of hard rock mineralization(Cottonwood, Humbug, Scott Bar), and the river runs rich for some miles below these areas, but all are many miles above my ground." New guys" Please note we are referring To Gold,and I agree with Kaveman and I think most will agree " who" have had experience, I would also suggest further that most of us would agree that over the " some miles below the source ", the river grinds the gold smaller and smaller, until it is so fine and smooth, and thin, super fine ground gold stays in suspension, and quickly lost out of the area by flood, ( New guys please note) , also most of us who have experience "can" actually observe from a bulk sample, ( days work with a 8' dredge ) that the sample was taken from very close to the source, ( very chunky , crystalline ,attached quartz, hardly any smooth surfaces), compared to another large dredge sample of all fine, smooth flat gold, taken from some miles down the creek and river behind the source, ( New guys also please note I am referring to river dredging, with hard rock gold vein sources,) So, my point is gold is a soft metal and has a heavy high Specific Gravity,and gets ground up pretty easy over a distance in these circumstances, ,

I suggest the keys to is PGMs,is they also have a slightly higher Specific Gravity, and is slightly harder surface, (but still soft ), which i suggest is also subject to being ground to smaller and smaller sizes over some miles, perhaps slightly less rate then gold, suggesting that PGM deposits also "have rich river runs ", over some miles,I further suggest a few points of interest ,and some whopper guesses.
No1, Can a deposit of gold be a source for gold to shed , and grind itself into suicidal fines,( over some miles), Ans, YES, ( in the right conditions ), No 2, Can a slightly heavier /harder ( PGM ) metal deposit shed or be eroded and grind it self to suicidal fines, Ans, YES,
No3 , I also would suggest that gold deposits like hard rock and tertiary benches of auriferous gravels anywhere , can be crossed by rivers, and can " BY CHANCE " cross a ( chance/random ) deposit /erosion area where PGMs deposited " in small grains, ect ,ect whenever,ect ect,
No5, I would also suggest that if the above is correct, I that this might be part of the reason why PGM discoveries or reported finds, ( along with gold ) are so " vague "??. or ( what is the words ) " by chance,( in my area,
Back asap, sorry this post was written over three days, bits and bits changed every where, b basic blar, blar, No 6, coming next,


  
dredger
01:42:08 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

No 6, hey kaveman, I would like to refer back to your pic showing nice little shiny clean PGM pickers in the bottle, when I first saw that pic, it occurred to me that there were no dirty or discoloured bits, which suggested to me several points of interest, A, you only picked out the nice shiny pickers and placed them in the bottle, ( and left the other dirty bits in the black sands if they were there at all, ) ,B, there are only nice shiny pickers in that dredged area/ section of the river, if , B is correct , I would suggest judging by the nice ground shiny surface on your pickers, that they have travelled some miles, from the original source, which brings us to, I suggest 2 possibilities, One, they came from the old mine along with the gold, or Two, they came from " a PGM source " a few miles up river,

By Dirty i mean still covered with residue .
,
and shiny clean i mean well worn.
,
back soon,

  
dredger
05:17:24 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

No 7 , is about a line of thought which suggest that gold sources and PGM sources by chance cross each others path, perhaps one or the other source of either may be as much as " some miles "apart , we know how to track gold to find the source, , pan the river to find the creek, then pan up the creek to find the source, ( vein hard rock or odoriferous gravels,), rich enough to work, with out any gold, ??.
No8, is about looking at a bulk sample as a hole and visually /scope accessing the amount of wear or grinding on the surface of the gold Or PGM over the bulk sample, to possibly guess the distance travelled by them, is feasible,
( eg, if I found mostly dirty coloured ,underground , PGMs shapes amongst flat fine ground flaky gold, I could assume, I am at the beginning of the PGM source, and at the rear of the gold source,).BUT, one must remember that the similarity between shedding Au, and shedding / " concentration" of a deposit of PGMs is very different, in so much that gold can be be shed ( down the creek a few miles from a source / vein gold ect,and enter the river nice clean chunky partly worn smooth gold nuggets ,small and large,, and PGMs deposits like Thermal Deposition and or Meteorite Splatter could cover huge areas, which could be eroded/concentrated by nature in a way as to ? produce mostly smooth PGM pickers as well as a lot of rough dirty unground PGMs entering the river, which in my line of thought should make tracking PGMs to their source or how much distance a little harder,

Just guessing,


  
dredger
05:33:58 Sun
Mar 29 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

I was going to post the following map pics,as Part three, but I think it is pretty relevant here discussing PGMs sources and Gold sources, so,
, back soon,

  
kaveman
23:18:45 Wed
Apr 1 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Been on the road for the last week, so catching up,......

I don't have much knowledge concerning the PGMs or too much interest in them either. I'm just hoping to someday have enough Plat in a bottle to fabricate a ring for some woman I haven't yet met, so it hasn't been a high priority,..........and it's becoming less of a priority every year as worthwhile women are being used up.

My understanding is that PGMs are relatively rare in the lower 48 of the US and the Klamath is one of the better sources,................but still a poor source with spotty distribution. I honestly don't recall where the Plat came from as it has resided in the bottle for 15-20yrs, but generally I believe it's more common downriver from areas I have worked. Salmon River area gets most mention. The common PGM here in the Klamath area is referred to as osmiridium, although there is true platinum as well,..........
http://books.google.com/books?id=ERoMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=klamath+platinum+osmiridium&source=bl&ots=k-fC4sixfd&sig=RDjFhhwnr7t0amJpE9Qvg-AvWCo

Placer gold looks like gold and the platinum looks like platinum, and you also find a lot of mercury covered gold that looks like platinum,........ but there are always some heavies lying back in the cons that don't look like anything. Might be lead, might be merc'd gold that has gone bad, or might be the black PGMs I think you're referring to. Unless you melt it or hit it with acid, it's hard to tell. We generally keep anything heavy, and just as generally never do anything with it. Someday when we end up with pounds rather than fractional ounces, we'll follow up on what it all is. There are stories I've heard of rich streaks of black carbon-like covered gold and PGMs that would have been missed if it weren't for a lucky scrape with a rock or boot or somesuch, but those stories always devolve into lost goldmine stories to which I pay little attention.

As a note, it is my understanding that PGMs from the Klamath bring about 65% spot price if you can manage to get enough to sell. I had always assumed that the low yield was due to the cost of refining, but after reading a little more I wonder if it isn't more a result of the true platinum percentage of the combined platinum/osmiridium and other PGMs that make up your poke. You may not be getting paid for any of the other values.


[1 edits; Last edit by kaveman at 23:31:29 Wed Apr 1 2009]

  
kaveman
00:11:32 Thu
Apr 2 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

I'm of the opinion that big gold never moves, or moves very, very little over time. Obviously it does work it's way down a steep slope into the river, but once in the river and down through the material onto bedrock, and into a crack, it'll stay right there until the bedrock itself is pulverized in a big flood and moved downstream where the nugg will find another home after a short run. They do become waterworn and smooth over the years, but I'm guessing that's more due to all the material moving across them rather than due to their own movement. Smaller gold moves more easily and moves further. Wear on the fines likely comes from movement of the fines.

Rather than having gold ground down into powder fines that flow downriver, I would suggest that gold isn't grindable. I believe that gold will remain at the size it originally forms in the vein, but gold of all sizes erodes from that vein and deposits into the watershed. The heavy gold remains near the source. The finer the gold particles, the further they travel from the source. The more worn and rounded the gold, the longer it's been there, but only in a relative way does it indicate the 'distance' travelled. Gold is soft and malleable and to my way of thinking, it's just about the most ungrindable material that exists. Mills will grind it, but that's what they're designed to do. Rivers move it, but I suspect they're not very efficient grinders, unless you're a rock.

All that is about a 90% concurrence with established thought with my own 10% of divergent thinking thrown in FWIW. Just another way to look at it, all in theory. I sometimes don't think the way everyone else seems to. For instance, I'm not convinced that gold travels from inside bend to inside bend. I seriously doubt that gold ever crosses current. I think it's better to picture gold moving downriver as a series of 'ribbons' from bank to bank, travelling smoothly and cleanly through unlikely deposition areas and stopping to rest in likely spots. You may find a deposit at a bend on one side of the river and another deposit further down along the opposite bank, but those are deposits from two separate flows and the impression of gold crossing from side to side is imaginary. All for what it's worth.

I started not believing things when I once saw a recommendation suggesting that you use duct tape to seal a break in a suction hose to prevent gold from getting out. Uhmmmmm,................it's 'suction' hose. How's anything going to 'get out'? From then on I took in everything I could but always kept an open mind to the idea that the common knowledge might very well be mistaken.

We've got one spot where the gold we recover is coarse, frosty and crystaline with lots of fragile milky white quartz still attached. Obviously that gold is fresh from a vein and I'll bet it hasn't moved a hundred feet. In fact, I'll bet money the vein exposure is underwater. 100% of the gold recovered from a mile or two upriver is smooth, sluggy and without a trace of matrix. I know where a vein is! :doublethumbsup:

  
LipCa
13:59:36 Thu
Apr 2 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

I thought I had a vein too until I found the "wash boulder" that had broken up and released the "fresh from the vein" gold...........

  
dredger
06:16:11 Fri
Apr 3 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Opps , there is that "ignore thing" going crazy again, :confused:. it must have a mind of it' s own, cause I don't know what makes it do it, ????.

Hey kaveman ,
That makes me 1 1/2 posts behind you, :confused:,
You say, "Deeper down there is probably cemented material from long ago that will show the shafts if we uncover any. I'm pretty sure we'll find areas of old workings, even though there isn't any sign at the surface.". I found the machine was a little light and unable to penetrate with the standard width bucket, when ever I found really old packed gravels, I would not say "cemented ", because my ripper tyne or my crevice flusher would rip through them easily enough, but i have seen really black cemented material, it had a real resin appearance, but that was not in the river, ??. up a creek, ??,
Anyway , when you do find it there is every reason to guess it will have good gold in it, :devil:
You say, "there isn't a single cobble or boulder pile anywhere on the bar, and you see those along the river anywhere work has been done ".very interesting,
You say, "We would not be allowed to divert the river even if it was physically possible. Certain things can't be done here. No damming, no diverting. If the excavator bucket or track touches water, we'll lose everything we own. Same goes for any spill in or near the waterway, so Old Yeller won't get within 50' of the river. Any gold there will just have to wait. We'll keep busy nearer the middle of the bar. I still think we're going to get our first samples from the area marked #1. We'll drop back a few hundred feet for the next run and both will cut across the bar 100' or so", that will do for now,
You say, "Placer gold looks like gold and the platinum looks like platinum, and you also find a lot of mercury covered gold that looks like platinum,........ but there are always some heavies lying back in the cons that don't look like anything. Might be lead, might be merc'd gold that has gone bad, or might be the black PGMs I think you're referring to. Unless you melt it or hit it with acid, it's hard to tell. We generally keep anything heavy, and just as generally never do anything with it. Someday when we end up with pounds rather than fractional ounces, we'll follow up on what it all is. There are stories I've heard of rich streaks of black carbon-like covered gold and PGMs that would have been missed if it weren't for a lucky scrape with a rock or boot or somesuchPlacer gold looks like gold and the platinum looks like platinum, and you also find a lot of mercury covered gold that looks like platinum,........ but there are always some heavies lying back in the cons that don't look like anything. Might be lead, might be merc'd gold that has gone bad, or might be the black PGMs I think you're referring to. Unless you melt it or hit it with acid, it's hard to tell. We generally keep anything heavy, and just as generally never do anything with it. Someday when we end up with pounds rather than fractional ounces, we'll follow up on what it all is. There are stories I've heard of rich streaks of black carbon-like covered gold and PGMs that would have been missed if it weren't for a lucky scrape with a rock or boot or somesuch",
That will be a fun day, when dredging w/hyd excavator have recovery systems that will handle all those probs with excellent efficiency, maybe with all the PGMs , Hg, Pb tidbits the PGM % might jump up higher, also by that time i would suggest we will have cranked up these machines into doing much higher rates of recovery and processing when the excavator or excavators are doing the digging, The big question is how fast will we be able to go, ??. any way for the moment, I think you will have a lot of fun with what you have got, :smile:
You say, I'm of the opinion that big gold never moves, or moves very, very little over time. Obviously it does work it's way down a steep slope into the river, but once in the river and down through the material onto bedrock, and into a crack, it'll stay right there until the bedrock itself is pulverized in a big flood and moved downstream where the nugg will find another home after a short run. They do become waterworn and smooth over the years, but I'm guessing that's more due to all the material moving across them rather than due to their own movement. Smaller gold moves more easily and moves further. Wear on the fines likely comes from movement of the fines." , my line of thought flows to the Mohs scale of hardness, and the hardness of some items, Finger nails is, 2.5. Gold Silver Copper penny is , 2.5 -3. Plat is 4 - 4.5 Iron is ,4.5. knife blade , ( i know I can easily sharpen my knife or tools on the rocks in my area, ) 5.5. Quartz " is 7 ", ( most rocks in my area are as hard as quartz,??) Harden steel file is 7+ plus, So I suggest over many many years they spend most of their time sliding on a surface like sand paper which does tear and rip tiny Angstrom size ( 1,000 microns = 1mm, 10,000 Angstroms= 1mm, smallest gold molecule recorded, 2.45 Angstroms, ) bits "off " the bulk of f any size gold, please note , we know that a river cuts deep ( 6' x4' ) channels into bedrock, I suggest that requires a solid tube of slurry ( 6' x4' )" moving "at or with considerable speed, I suggest the Sg of gold and PGMs have only enough effect to keep the low and travelling on the bedrock , ( also considering the amounts of black sands involved, ( excellent sand paper materials, ) also travelling or moving or rolling with the gold, which i imagine is sort of sliding over the bedrock, nose continually dipping down as the extremely strong current sweeps it along,al the time begging hammered down flat onto the bedrock by 6' of rocks travelling above it , , Please note this, anyone one can use a bit of light coloured chalky rock to write their name on a dark coloured big rock, please try it with a gold nugget, you only have to rub a little harder then soft chalk and a little longer to fill in the grained / sand paper surface of the big rock,
Also please note how easy it is to rub some fine gold for testing, on a testing stone,
,
Bit like skid marks on a road, or on a rock,??.
So mate, I think i will go with the sanding down ( abrasion, ) concept, but please note, I believe I have an open mind, and practice getting things wrong all the time ,
You wrote, started not believing things when I once saw a recommendation suggesting that you use duct tape to seal a break in a suction hose to prevent gold from getting out. Uhmmmmm,... " I agree, which reminds me to mention a experience of mine with tape, , ok when i dredged, I would start sucking the silt and rocks from around the jet and proposed entry/exit point for me to get out of the hole, I use a thin wall plastic rib hose, very flexible, and easily retracted into a short flexible hose, one end had the nozzle , the other end went / slip straight on the jet log, I also had 2 lengths of thick wall plastic rib hose 8", which was not flexible, as well as 2 lengths of plastic ribbed " bar-flow " 8"hose, I would clean around with the flexible hose, and the add a " joiner sleeve" and a length of thick wall plastic ribbed hose, eventually joining all 5 lengths together, each of the joiner sleeves was 18" x 8" stainless steel thin wall pipe,
My point is you mention loosing gold out of a hole in a suction hose, I agree not much chance of loosing gold out of a hole that has sucked close a rip in the hose, however, my experience of joining hoses together with a sleeve quickly showed gold on the bedrock around the the joins, because the voins were not sealed, and because of flexing in the joins, SO, what i did to seal the hose ends was this, At the nozzle I used a length of 1/2 " nylon rope, I wound that around the centre of the s/s sleeve, with the rope length so the end butted up to each other, then hold that in place, I applied a wide material surface finish tape, ( this " hundred mile an hour tape , as we call it ) , to more one side of the rope, then again wrapped another length around and on the rope /pipe , and I did that twice on each side, this meant the all the hoses would slide along the s/s sleeve about 6' inches, then jam on the 2 thickness layers of tape, holding the hose off the rope seal about 2 inches, soon as the motors were set to "run " , and with a little shake the hose sucked/slid over the wet tape and sealed against the rope /tape beautifully, when running i could see picker size flakes of gold jambed in between the outside of 6" of stainless /steel sleeve and inside the hose, with some gravel,
The nozzle was attached the flexible suction hose with a similar rope and tape seal with the addition of 2 screw clamps pulling the hose hard on the tape,
Where the hose , ( usually thick walled plastic ribbed hose ) slid onto the jet log, I used my largest gold pan or large plastic dish, with a big rock in it, placed directly under where the hose slid off the jet, I always found gold in the pan or dish, mostly dropped when removing the hose to clear a blockage, please note, my sluice was "sat on top of the gravels, ( no vibration, and the motor were 30' away from the sluice and hose, ( again no vibration, ), So the gravel and some gold would work it way inside the s/s sleeve,and stop at the tape seal, Please note, that it was my experience that when I removed the tape /rope seal , I found " flat " good pick size and smaller gold , that had passed under the tap, between the tape and the hose, right up to the rope, when removing the tape i found small flakes stuck from the tape glue, to the s/s sleeve, so I agree , not much chance of loosing gold from a hole punctured through the hose, but it was my experience to have a never ending battle with gold creeping out between tape / rope seals and sleeves,and when joining or dismantling the hoses, the upside was if i occasional changed the seals, ( and especially around the nozzle end ) , I would get some good gold that was caught ,

YOU KNOW where the vein is,, Yahoo. :devil:.to you , WE WANT PICS, HAHA PLEASE. there have to be quite a few veins crossing river beds, ( I think i would have a heart attack if I found a REAL vein,
sorry GOTTA RUN, GREAT POSTS MATE,NO OFFENCE MENT MATE. dredger,



  
kaveman
17:18:43 Mon
Apr 6 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

No offense taken. It's just an offset theory(and only part of one at that), not proven fact, and even if true it's only occasionally true. Nothing's always ever. You make a good point with the streak test,................no debate that that'll smear a particle of gold down to dust. You make me reevaluate how I always sorta imagined a bedload to move during a flood.

I imagined that the bulk of the material at the bottom seldom moved and that it took a huge deluge to rip it all up and cut new bedrock channel. Your streak makes me think of something else,.................

What if the entire bedload moves more like a glacier during a flood, with only the uppermost layers actually rolling along? What if the lower layers, much like a glacier, grind and ooze downriver and gouge their way through the bedrock channels? They don't move fast, but they do move as an intact, viscous layer due to the weight of the water above? That would certainly grind away at everything. When you think about it, how does anyone really know what goes on below the surface?

Anyway, our area is very likely to have a false bedrock of what's known locally as Seiad Cement. It's very common for a stretch below Seiad Valley(little local village)and it's just as the name implies,.............a grey cement layer that is practically impenetrable. We had it under our paystreak in the dredge hole just above the bar here, and almost all of our gold recovered came from off the top of that cement. Never did find a way to break through it and get to honest bedrock. Hammers and chisels and airhammers and blasting hoses(and the dredge)did practically nothing to it. Two of us working for a solid hour on nothing but that cement managed a hole about the size of a bushel basket and we never got a read on whether or not the material contained any gold. Hardly matters if you can't process enough of it to pay, but who knows what riches might lie on the bedrock below? AFAIK, nobody has determined one way or the other whether the Seiad Cement is an ancient, natural occurance(maybe volcanic), or if it's man-made and a result of the hydraulic mines upstream. If it's ancient, then it's definitely virgin.

I've heard stories(again)of one operation striking it rich by using an excavator to rip out the cement layer and mining the bedrock beneath(years ago when such a thing was possible in the river), and another storie where dredgers tunneled down through it and made out very well dredge-drifting beneath it. Neither story happened in my area and the dredging op happened on a different river, but it still makes you wonder.


Gold trapping in the hose junctions,................sure. Anything that lets the gold duck out of the current will trap it. By sealing those junctions, you created gold traps. If you'd left them open to draw in water, gold wouldn't have settled there(but you'd have wasted dredge power with a bunch of system leaks). Taping a crack or puncture in a hose loses gold; leaving the hole open might cost you some power, but the gold will continue on its way to the sluicebox. Just something in a book that I found puzzling,................

  
dredger
03:32:08 Tue
Apr 7 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

arrrrrrR, I think I am figuring OUT that " ignore " problem of mine, when I press on " interact " to "reply " and press on that, I accidentally ( not knowing I am do it ) , my finger "scrolls down " by it self, and sometimes ends up on " Ignore " , I panic , and red cross the window, ( so as not to do anymore damage, ), Note to self, " NO SCOLLING " AND PLEASE NOTE, iT WAS NEVER MY INTENTION TO "IGNOR" ANYONE, :confused:.
Hey Kaveman, great post mate,very inspiring :smile:,
No offense taken. It's just an offset theory(and only part of one at that), not proven fact, and even if true it's only occasionally true. No thing's always ever. I agree, and my line of thought is " the more we keep stabbing at it the quicker we will get more gold in our pockets, :smile:
You say, "You make me reevaluate how I always sorta imagined a bed load to move during a flood. ". Mate here is some more, ??? points of interest, a little experience of mine was to go water skiing on this dam for the purpose of checking out some old diggings at the head waters of this dam , which i found heaps, so there was gold there,

please note the next pic shows the original course of the river was diverted and a new spill way was placed over ground /bedrock that had never had a river over it, ( the miner in me decided that illegal mid-night mining would be pointless due to the fact that no gold would have run down the spill way, please note the dam is about 50 years old, ????.
Next pic ,
,, is where it gets really interesting, the pic does not really show that much of the spill way area, has been " totally " sweep clean to the bedrock, please note only water has passed through the spill gates, all the thousands of tons of gravel that does move down the river are and have settled way over the other side of the dam, please also note, most of the dirty water has also settled in the dam before the gates during high flooding, so there is little or no abrasive type materials in the water passing through the spill-way,
Which brings me to a observation I made with a set of Binoculars sanding on the roads around the area, please note the gullies and channels " cut " in to the bedrock were exactly like the water worn gullies I dredged in rivers, my point here is the bedrock gullies at the dam were cut and worn smooth by " Just water must have happened in a period of around 50 years, I suggest this fast wearing of bed rock erosion happens quickly , very quickly , even without rocks /gravels ??.

  
dredger
02:35:50 Sun
Apr 12 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Hey Kaveman, sorry again about the "ignore thing " . I know not what I do, ( Note to self ) all i have to do is delete the ignore command , ???, :confused:

I am having computer probs, as well, as being bussy,

So I hope you will read this before you go dredging,

HAVE A GREAT TIME, , I know you are an experienced dredger, and I remember back when I first went dredging with an excavator, sure it will take time to get used to the digger, but it won't be long before you notice how much faster you are dredging, as well as dredging much bigger holes, YAHOO, great fun mate, I will be interested to hear how much faster you think you can dredge now, Hahahah,
You say, the Seiad Cement is an ancient, this is where the ripper tyne comes in so handy, in my area I do get some pretty hard packed channels , when I use the ripper to break it up, and still find big chunks of hard packed while dredging, I tend to place them on flat bedrock near where i am working, and flatten them with the bucket next chance,after , when i dredged those materials ( slowly ) i could or would find what gold was in them, another point of interest is, if your dredging and find hard packed materials, or if there is too much overburden on the bedrock that you have missed digging, just move the suction nozzle/hose to a safe distance, All tools ect, and move the overburden or big rocks with the bucket, ok this makes the work hole dirty , but with clean water running in the hole, and the dredge running you can jump back in and get dredging pretty quick, my line of thought is the process of using a dredge/ excavator works out quicker if you use the excavator a lot, while dredging, other wise you will waste a lot of time just putting or dredging overburden materials that the excavator can move a lot quicker, also another point of interest is if you are digging up or down river bedrock, the channels in the bedrock are running up and down river,and it is easy to miss channels thinner then the bucket width, with that in mind when you finish digging a trench /hole, move the machine around to the side of the hole, and scrap or feel with the bucket across any channels, there can be a single channel or many channels, ( usually smaller and less deep ), you will quickly learn how to feel your way around and channels running up or down river , also to at least break up any hard stuff where you can, I found it is quicker to dredge materials that are broken up then having to waste time getting them out with the crevise flusher, :gonetoofar:,

Ok, better post , dredger,

  
dredger
03:27:51 Mon
Apr 13 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

For the new guys , I would like to "emphasize " that dredging a small amounts of gravels , ( perhaps a few feet deep, ), that have been already broken up by the excavator, is really easy and fast, one of the reasons why is because you can use two hands to basically lift/ push the larger rocks aside, while gulping down the smaller materials left on the bedrock after excavating the hole, another reason is the suction from the nozzle does not have to be so close to or be forced on to the work face, ( to maintain a constant flow of gravels to the sluice, ) , ( please note, when dredging without a excavator,, some really hard pack materials " can not be broken up with a crevice flusher " fast enough " / too slow ". ) I personally enjoyed sitting on or kneeling with the nozzle held between my legs, with my hole up body hanging over or further out over the nozzle, please also note, my nozzle was sucking most gravels and rocks for 2-3' , which gave the advantage of being able to see most gold laying on the bedrock, and being able to sort the larger rocks, and most important , fewer Blockages for the day, and the fact, that this type of dredging, is like flying, or speed dredging, :devil:.
Next is some points of my interest concerning why I found gold travelling on the outside of a bend, and why there is almost no gold , close to where I found the main gold run,, I also suggest for the new guys, if your checking on , ( I suggest 2-3 areas ), on possible places to look for gold, using topographic maps, and google earth,
Starting with the google earth, and i hope it is readable,

And topo map section of the same area,

Testing, back asap.



[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 03:48:20 Mon Apr 13 2009]

  
dredger
10:46:32 Mon
Apr 13 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Ok, I forgot to suggest to focus on high constant flows of gravels with gold, attention should be paid to recovery, or more to the point, a wider sluice width then just a say 8" working packed river gravels w/out a excavator, ,
Please note the sixth Pic above showing google pic, Gold is shed from both sides of the surface diggings on Nuggety hill, into Nuggety Gully, and Spring Creek, ( Latest Drill reports state, only one drill hole shows gold, no work planned, ), but still a lot of gold was shed into Spring and Benedict Creeks as well as the gold shed from the Hard rock mine and surface workings, ( No name ) into the main river flow, gold found in both creeks is mainly worn, up to big pickers,
My line of thought is to show the gold shed from the creeks , and gold shed from old high banks, ( old river bottoms),into and down the river for about 1 and 1/2 miles, only, also hopefully show new guys a few relevant point of interest I found,
Next please note the pic of a topo map, 2 above , I suggest these are very handy maps for the new guys , showing houses /road/ fire trails, and old diggings , not really update, on the mining, but I have found them to be very helpful, please note on the topo map, I have placed some small arrows to show where old high bench diggings and water races where used in the old days, indicating gold in the area, then by zooming in on Google Earth, please note google earth pic above, ( the wide one ), and I will hopefully fill in some more details,
1, and two arrows shows an section of worked high bench, ( small mounds left by the old times show good gold shedding in to the river above where the creeks connect,
2, and two arrows shows a section between the arrows points,Similar or same high bench , where post holes where drilled to bedrock, samples show very good gold, then we filled the holes back in a bit then suck the posts in , ( farmer had already bulldozed all old signs of old diggings ,
3, with 4 arrows shows high bench , two inside arrows shows 1920's hydraulic mining , left big hole, two outside arrows show old diggings, ( tops of filled in shafts, were 6-12 feet deep ),
4, is the direction of river flow,
5, is move high bench old diggings,shafts,
6, is extensive hydraulic sluicing /old diggers very high on the hill, very big and deep holes are visible, farmed bulldozed the rest of the old diggings for crops,
A, is where the creeks dump into the river, and the creek is prone to flash flooding, please note on the topo map, shows the road t-insections just below where the creeks enters the river, the gold is travelling on the last inside bend of the creek, as it enters the river, and is "carried " across the river to the "inside bend " bedrock is mostly flat except for deep channels cut into the bedrock in the inside bend, please note 3 yellow arrows , 5 yellow X's shows where good gold has been found, and 2 re arrows and red 2 X's show where very little gold was found , please also note difference between topo map and google pic concerning which side of the Island of trees the water course may take or run depending on whether the creek and river flood at the same time, or just the river, or just the creek, which i suggest did not matter to the gold , because most of the gold ending up on the inside bend opposite to the creek entrance,
B, is 2 red arrows showing where the was no gold , only smooth sloping bedrock , and the adjacent 2 yellow X's and 3 yellow arrows show where the gold was, gravel bed or river bed is roughly 60' wide,
C, is 2 yellow arrows, 5 yellow X's showing good gold and the inside bend with classic 12' deep channels cut into the bedrock , , crevices and main fault present, please note the tree in the middle of the main flow, it is a big tree, and old, ( possibly sitting on top of bedrock outcrop, ??. ), please note main flood flow covers a river width of about 80 ' wide, inside of deep channel is slopping smooth bedrock, 30' wide,
better post back asap,

  
dredger
04:35:06 Tue
Apr 14 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

inside of deep channel is slopping smooth bedrock, 30' wide,
Did not make much sence so here is another pic,

testing,
[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 08:55:53 Tue Apr 14 2009]

  
dredger
11:12:27 Thu
Apr 16 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Please note old water race, which are usually level, but over 100 + years tend to slip down the hill in places, is a good indication, that the river flow was diverted to drain the river, so that deep sections of river beds could be worked to bedrock, and water supply to high up the creeks,
Please note, Area C, hyd sluiced area/workings, there is actually a very big hole, and the high bench /old river bed is water worn, also please note , sluices were cut through old bed rock as can be seen, interesting point for the new guys here is the section or hole area must have had rich gold, because it was first shafted,and bedrock or old gully cut by old river , were cleaned, then later , hyd sluiced, to recover the gold in the gravels " between " the shafts, left by the old timers.

Light blue lines are high water marks in floods , Green lines are where the smooth bedrock slopes around the inside of the bend and down slightly to the ( gray lines ) channels cut in the bedrock, which is also the path or the flow during big floods, just outside is the present water flow, out side that is shallow green grass, on top of jaggered bedrock, ( very little gold there, to high and very much on the out side of the bend, ) out side that is the light blue lines and showing high water mark, please note , the gray line starting on the right side of the pic, upstream , shows where the main flood flow ( and " heavier gold ) run, this section has a few feet of overburden over smooth bedrock, ( most of the gold is travelling in the overburden, )little to no crevices, moving further down stream ,please note squarish area which had good crevices, faults and good gold, further left , the gray line splits into two channels , which did run deep, here in and around this section,, the bedrock was well cracked, which are very good gold catchers, the cracked bedrock chunks are easily removed by finding the key stone and using a small jimmy bar,
Sorry, back soon,


  
hoppingforpay
05:26:44 Sat
Apr 18 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

I enjoy reading you guys and can tell there are some findings under your belts...I have not made it to excavator status due to fear of buying something so expensive with hard earned gold. Anyway I was wondering if you you're familiar with this guy. I moved from California to Alaska in the early nineties in hopes of bigger deposits and lesser restrictions...haha.. one out of two hopes worked out!

http://www.fortymilegold.ca/FortymileGoldPlacers.html

  
dredger
03:23:25 Sun
Apr 19 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Hey hoppingforpay,

Please mate, get to excavator status ASAP, You say, "buying something so expensive ". hold on a minute there,( hold that thought ), I prefer machines around the same age and what looks to be in very good condition as kavemans are the best to start with, , his is a excellent choice, no where near as complicated or expensive as a new machine, and around here perhaps around $20,000AUD and less, to me, that's means I or you would have around 100 men digging /working for me or you, :devil:, and they all do exactly what ya tell them to do, ( no strikes ), ( no free lunches ), :smile:. setting up an operation is not rocket science either,
For the new guys who want to dredge all year round, say below Alaska, warmer conditions, and not expensive to buy/ transport a machine, I suggest excavators are more easier to get too, especially considering the recession, , I suggest finding say 4-6 equal partners, to share the costs is possible, :confused:. allot partnerships do work out, and I am sure there are a lot of good trustworthy miners out there , and the price of gold should be going up, ??.
Yes hoppingforpay, I am familiar with the floating trommels, in fact i thought of the time i was in New Zealand on a big "old " trammel, 1996, laying face down on the right pontoon, banging my head on the flat steel pontoon, thinking , "how can you get the gold missed/ lost by the excavator bucket while digging ", I think of when I dig the hole in my area, I want to drop the gold onto the bedrock, where I can be sure of sucking it up. ( In New Zealand the river /hills mountains are very similar to Canada,cold water too, ) I also remember on the of the Gray river, NZ. there was a yellow/brown rotten bedrock layer at bedrock level, (sticky as ), onto which the gold would have fallen , the operator had to try and scrap a thin layer off the top of the sticky clay, ( testing showed the clay scxxxs were rolled into balls by the trammel and lost out of the trammel, all tested had gold, big and small, ), I would suggest if reliable information were on hand as to where the really good gold was found , in NZ, one day ,actually today would be a good time to go back and " re-dredge "w/excavator those areas with better recovery units, and much higher Yards per Minute methods, say 2-3 excavators , and perhaps processing one cu yard per second, yes one cu yard per second could be the target in the future, near or far future ,it is up to everyone with a dredging excavators to make it happen, ok , for the moment, lets stick to "one excavator " , and imagine say a 20-30 tonne,similar to cavemans,( operating the excavator to absolutely strick guidelines and method, only 6 second passes to load and dump one bucket, ) and imagine how to double the the bucket capacity / function, ( without increasing the standard bucket dimensions, ) say standard 2 cub metre bucket, so the bucket will now moves four cub metres within each say 6 seconds pass, that's 4 cu metres every 6 seconds ,( and if you had two excavators , that would be 8 cu metres in 6 seconds) , New guys please note, anyone with dredging experience would be saying that is crazy, and how do you process 8 box trailers ( cubic metre ), in 6 seconds over what size sluice, ??? stupid, I suggest high speed handling and processing will be the way of the future, near or far, and is definitely mechanically possible,and inevitable.
Anyway hoppingforpay, stay tuned to your excavator status , I was going to finish this post on gold on the inside of the bend, and outside of the bend, then do this " blower/sucker/ sneeze bucket concept of mine,
Back asap.

  
hoppingforpay
05:17:49 Sun
Apr 19 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Well I enjoy your enthusiasom for mining "dredger" certainly you are bitten by the bug! Actually Alaska has soft bedrock for the most part so an excavator can get it all in most cases. The problem here is that that the ground is frozen. Worse than if it were cement. I like the idea of a major helper tool to a dredge but in reality how much gold would be needed to cover an excavator,dredge operation compared to a pure dredge operation. Certainly more than 100 ounce streaks are needed to cover the maintenance and keep of an excavator. I am sure if you use an excavator to just help a dredge it is much less than if supplying a plant but I guess I am asking what an excavator costs to own and operate per season beyond it's purchase price. Say one that can pick up 1300 lb. dredge and walk with it.

  
dredger
01:56:22 Mon
Apr 20 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

"Well I enjoy your enthusiasom for mining "dredger " certainly you are bitten by the bug! ", :confused:, I don't know what you mean mate, :devil:

My alarm was about the really sticky soft bedrock stealing gold, everywhere, as seen in NZ with the NZ floating trommel,

It occures to me that we may be talking about dredging in a river, and frozen gravels and frozen soft bedrock, out of water, , it also occurs to me to think and wonder could a " closed circuit dredge w/excavator operation" , be conducted on a frozen high bench, or frozen river bed, ??. maybe , perhaps if the dredge /processing unit, held ?? 40 ton of very warm filtered water , Big processing unit, ( so the water being pumped into the hole is very hot, over the other side of the hole, the diver has insulation and cools his dry suit, ) water /gravels returns to processing unit which filters and re-heats the water, 4" to 8" nozzle, ??, 20' x 30' long hole, ?? 15' deep, maybe, ??. another line of thought is considering i have never dug in frozen gravels, do rocks freeze right down or through to the core, ??????????. I don't know, but would guess and say no, so assuming only the outside of rocks is frozen, ??, 1/16", means that the inside of the rock is not frozen, further considering attempting to dig frozen ground with a bucket, is useless, how ever using a " ripper tyne " in my opinion rip or crush rocks at around 30,000 psi break out force, meaning i would like to see if that works, ????> what a ice pick,haha,
you ask " how much gold would be needed to cover an excavator,dredge operation compared to a pure dredge operation.
So two scenarios, with and without " I can refer to "in a river " , also there are two more, 1,2,3,.4. please note, the following refers to a no gold situation, because the time taken to dig to and dredge the bedrock, can vary in days, on those days you have to spend 4-5 days cleaning good gold out of crevices, :smile:
1, being just dredge and all rocks /gravels moved by hand, 8" nozzle is best, if ya young and strong, around 30"' long x 20' wide, 8' deep hole, would take many days,
2, With excavator that moves ?? 80% of gravels, and loosens up almost all gravels on bedrock ( 2 1/2 hours ) making dredging remaining 20% of river gravels left on the bedrock , pretty fast, One day, excavator, 2 1/2 hours to prepare hole, and 2 hours to back fill/ rehab the hole, dredge hand sets up dredge at same time as digging, 3-4hours dredging, ( please remember I am not referring to extra time the diver is using to clean crevices, and extracting gold,
3, being w/excavator and suction nozzle, nozzle attached to excavator, reduces the time the diver in the water, by sucking the remaining 20% gravels left on bedrock by the bucket, meaning the diver has almost no gravels to dredge, and visual inspection of the bedrock is very quick, meaning the diver spends perhaps a 1/2 hour inspecting the bedrock,please remember these are just rough guesses , so that's 2 1/2 hours to dig the hole/ ponds ect, 20 minutes to use the sucker nozzle over the bedrock, 1/2 hour diver inspection dredging time, 2 hours to back fill,
4, will have to wait, sorry gotta run, dredger,


  
hoppingforpay
23:15:04 Mon
Apr 20 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Yeah there is clay off and on in places that I have dredged. I am just kind of looking into things for a creek I have in mind. I have seen how much money goes into a standard heavy equipment operation and I don't think I want to go there because it is not that easy pull off the kind of gold required to pay for all the iron.
I kind of entertained the pond heating thought... plenty of wood around.
I have to check this ground out to see just how much the old timers have left by putting many holes in by dredge. An excavator opens up the whole valley. If I could get away without a dozer I sure would save some dough.
I don't know if a ripper on a hoe would have the force to break this stuff up. A D8 can for a lot of fuel....
The ground is like extremely hard ice cream it doesn't want to crack like ice or cement. As far as I know it is either thawed,ripped with a dozer or blown up with explosives.
I don't have good computer access so my abilities to carry a thread are minimal so feel free to carry on with the Klamath.



  
dredger
09:01:14 Tue
Apr 21 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Hey hoppingforpay,
Mate, you said, " I have to check this ground out to see just how much the old timers have left by putting many holes in by dredge. An excavator opens up the whole valley.". ............ Yes I agree the excavator opens up the hole valley, but please note, checking out the ground with a excavator should be at least " ten times faster " ( definitely five time faster, depending on everything else, floods, bush fires, ect , lots of reasons , then just using the dredge, many more test holes in your season, and after you have done ya testing, ya ready to do bulk, no more machine needed, definitely not a bulldozer, please,
Also you said, places that I have dredged. "I am just kind of looking into things for a creek I have in mind. I have seen how much money goes into a standard heavy equipment operation and I don't think I want to go there because it is not that easy pull off the kind of gold required to pay for all the iron.".
"standard heavy equipment operation", mate, " this is not standard ", I hear what your saying, and one excavator, compared to many heavy equipment operations there is no comparison, really, I remember I did everything to reduce the fuel bill, the 2x Honda 13s for the dredge were amazing, New Guys please note, that is difficult to give a straight answer on average fuel usage, because any given day I would dig the hole, dredge it and find no gold, 4 and half hours digging, (excavate/ rehabilitate, / back fill to original contours) , was about 40-50 litres, dredge smooth bedrock about 5 litres of petrol, on other days, I would dig the hole , and find gold, and spend from say 1 - 5 days cleaning crevices and getting gold, on those days the excavator was used to remove tailing's, and or extend the hole, 2litres - 4 litres for the excavator per day, I did use two 20 litre Jerry cans for the excavator , and two petrol Jerry cans for the dredge, on average, ( and from a bad memory, ), Fuel was not a problem, low actual working hours for the excavator meant maintenance was also low as with wear and tear, when ya on gold the excavator mostly sits around and looks beautiful. :confused:,
Wood, ???. have you ever thought of burning the wood to get hydrogen to fuel the excavator, ???. and heat the water, ??. a small box trailer of wood per day perhaps/ could fuel a hard working excavator, ??.

You say, "The ground is like extremely hard ice cream it doesn't want to crack like ice or cement. As far as I know it is either thawed,ripped with a dozer or blown up with explosives", ........perhaps very high pressure hot water.pump running on wood burning hydrogen, ??. and I am still of the view that a 30 ton excavator would be able to rip up frozen gravel, ( not frozen ice, ) large areas of frozen ice , I would suggest a nice 30 ton " Krupp " hyd hammer, I could not see large amounts of solid ice being a problem,
Also, " I don't have good computer access so my abilities to carry a thread are minimal so feel free to carry on with the Klamath", ...........I hope you get online soon, :smile:,
And you also asked , Say one that can pick up 1300 lb. dredge and walk with it. , ...... so a 20 tonne has a cu yard bucket, which can safely carry a ton or more of dirt, with the bucket, they can lift up to 3 ton,
With a bucket, it will just lift, ( more like pushing it around, ) a 5 ton rock on top of a pile, or in the bottom of a hole, I would suggest any machine under 20 ton in a river situation, starts to feel too small,and fragile and not enough reach, amongst other reasons, even though river gravels are really easy digging materials, usually, or generally speaking,
As for frozen ground I would suggest a 25- 30 ton machine,
Please note, anyone thinking about dredging w/excavator , I have a few times had occasion to be on traditional heavy equipment mining and general earth moving sites, as a operator and plant mechanic,and at times when excavators / bulldozers/ loaders /trucks were all used, I did ask the main man , " what machine would he keep to run his operation if he were only allowed to have one machine, " they always answered "excavator" , !!!.

Ok ,
4, is a different from 1,2,3, methods, sorry again, out of time,

  
dredger
23:46:38 Wed
Apr 22 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

4, is a different from 1,2,3, methods,, except for a few points, one is the digging or removing all or as much overburden/gravel /gold " off the bedrock " is done " first ", then the diver inspects and and removes gold in crevices ect, my line of thought is speed up the methods 1, to 2, to 3, and finally 4, ( except when someone can think of 5, ) :smile:.
New guys ,please note, 1, and 2, methods result in any gold travelling in different layers of the overburden, above the channels, ( "which can be very good gold" ), will place flood gold on the bedrock, as oppose to methods 3, and 4, , 3, the the excavator drops the gold while digging the hole, and the gold is then sucked up by the " suction nozzle fitted to the digger ",
no 4 method will focus on sucking the gold in the over burden and lying on bedrock at the same time, please note , this means the hole is dug, and the bedrock is "high pressure blasted " ,( hopefully 2cu metre water in 2 and 1/2 seconds, all under 1" materials are removed,, meaning if the diver does not find any crevices, and the bedrock is clean , inspection of a 20' wide x 30 -35' long clean bedrock surface , ( 30-35 ' long hole being relevant to the excavator reach , /suction hose length, ), might take less then 30 minutes, ( maybe 15 minutes )??. TO INSPECT THE BEDROCK, 30-15 MINUTIES.
Next difference between methods 1,2,3,
back asap,


[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 02:39:50 Thu Apr 23 2009]

  
dredger
06:46:05 Wed
Apr 29 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Sorry, I am trying to work out a 1,2,3,4, drawing / graph, ??. times, ??. ect, I will work on that , also I am worried i have drifted off subject , "where I found gold on the outside of a bend, for the new guys",

So , I refer to the above pic, and I last I said, "the cracked bedrock chunks are easily removed by finding the key stone and using a small jimmy bar, ". to remove usually large chunks of bedrock, ( don't forget to clean off the mud /gold sticking to the sides /bottom of the chunks of rock,) in my situation ./ area, these cracked bedrock chunks are the best gold catchers PROVIDED THEY ARE IN OR HAVE BEEN IN THE GOLD RUN" , mainly because there are hardly "NO deep crevices" for the gold to slip into once the chunks of rock are removed, ( during clean-up ).the gold is easy to sweep together and into a corner, with my hand, please also note, there is very little small gravels held in these cracks, as apposed to small gravels found in normal crevices, /faults
Next is the area between area C, and D, which has pretty well gun barrel straight channels cut shallow in to the bedrock, into and down to area D, please note the two red arrows show protruding bedrock and rock bar, on the outside of the channels, , the protruding bedrock shows water worn and carries little to no gold, just small flat flood gold in the protruding bedrock /bar,
Next pic is area D,

Green lines show smooth bedrock slopping to the outside of the bend, please also note two small red arrows are the protruding rock bar area, and gun barrel straight channels that carry most gold on the outside of the bend, and " not on the inside " of the bend, small red squares are dredge sites, little to no heavy gold found, some flaky flood gold, ( but it was worth the look ), so, my suggestion for the new guys is study a area/bend while still looking " at the big picture ", general rule is that gold travels on the inside of the bend, but, part of that or " the " rule " is there are exceptions to the rule,
Better post before i loose it ,
next points of interest ,a danger which might happen to a new guy, ( it happened to me when I was a new guy changing from 8" dredge up to dredging with a excavator , ), also might be a danger experienced dredger moving up to dredging with a excavator , :smile:
Also some blar blar about where to find /look for the smaller flood gold, in relation to the main run/channels,
Also I would suggest there is much thought about concerning " reading the river in flood ". :confused:
Sorry gotta run, back asap.

  
dredger
02:29:42 Sun
Aug 30 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Sorry guys, this recession is getting bussy , back ASAP,

  
dredger
22:33:19 Thu
Sep 24 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

Sorry again, guys, recession / depression makes it hard to focus, bussy as , :confused:.

So, my line of thought / experience goes back to 1987 when fast water river dredging was banned in Australia, ,

[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 22:35:56 Thu Sep 24 2009]

  
dredger
03:18:25 Sat
Sep 26 2009

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Re: Dredging W/hydraulic Excavator,part two.

For the new guys, to continue dredging in clean water basically several factors did have to change in my situation, 1997-89-90.

No 1 . No turbid water from tailing's leaching back into the main river flow, fact is this proven is proven method of filters resulting no or Nil effect on fish, river ect.end of discussion.
No 2 . all trees are re-located / re- planted " very quickly with big excavators, New guys please note, some trees contain too much oil to burn or bury, ( as in my areas ) without some environmental effect being able to be detected , I would suggest in the long run it is cheaper to replant, then pay to have someone cut it into fire wood, or waste time doing it your self, please also note that I am referring to or only my experience in shallow river bed as pictured above, but I would suggest where there is a will, there is a way, to even transplanting large areas of trees would be easier and quick with a special trees transplanting attachment fitted to the excavator in a quick hitch manner, or if there were a bunch of birds nesting in the trees I would work around them , or move along to the next gravel bed with less or little trees, or area, work around the problem, not just cut them done,
No 3 . picture perfect rehabilitation, ( back filling to the original contours in a similar size and deposition as found, ) as pictured above, easy.
No 4 , is when applying for licencing of “this method” , ( dredging with a excavator, ) ( anywhere ) please be aware that all other Government agencies will be informed sooner or later, so, after the first time, it is my practice to make application and inform and ask for a comment to share between departments, first, it was my experience that 12 months after I made my first application, that all “other “ relevant depts. Had objected, on the grounds that no information had been supplied to them, ??.about the above outlined methods, so I “ duplicated and supplied asap. new guys please use the line of thought that dealing with applications to all concerned parties, is a bit like being the dealer in a card “game “, except you have to deal the correct ( cards ) and complete / fact/Pics, and I found fairly cheap water sampling/testing information from an independent party, ), information to all concerned, then reshuffle and distribute relevant info ( comments ) again, please note this period of time is very intense, but a lot of fun too, also did result in reducing the “ application time “ . and also the “ environmental bonds $$$ “, were considerably reduced, considering the insignificant short term environment disturbance, compared to traditional large environmental foot print operations used in the past,
No 5 , is show and tell all heavy toxic metals recovered/information Hg/ Pb, Tooo much in my area/ river /s,

Blar blar, sorry, I am having trouble posting relevant examples of documents .



I hope anyone can use a guidelines in applications for dredging with a excavator method, , please note from first attempt is unreadable, so I am working on those, as well as Auss EPA guidelines, “ dredging in gravel bed rivers “. Asap,


I really want to move on to a bit of other blar, blar about production, we are looking at say a 8” dredge with a say 20 ton excavator, my experience is “ too time with me in the water dredging, yes, dredging in clean water in a large holes dug by a excavator and filtering the tailing's, beautiful and a lot of fun, to increase the production in this situation I suggest reducing the divers time in the water , and equipping the excavator to do most of the actual dredging, hard work, faster, and also exchanging the 8” dredge concept to a larger mobile processing unit, I am working on a pic to show some ideas on buckets, asap. Then pumps , and processing unit, ect, asap. I would suggest ny suggestions could apply to say 3 ton ( small excavator ) and small processing ( mobile ) unit, up to say two 35 ton ( large excavators ) and a processing unit say with a track base of a 35 ton excavator , and a processing unit contained or mostly contained in a forty foot shipping container,

So at this point in time I am out of time for now, ( but still trying hard ), sorry gotta run.

Dredger.
[1 edits; Last edit by dredger at 03:25:41 Sat Sep 26 2009]

  

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