"Out beyond ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing there is a field. I'll meet you there." ----- Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi-Rumi, 13th century Sufi poet.

"Have faith that people do their best. I don't know anyone who would eat with pigs out of a trough in a muddy barnyard if he knew that a well-prepared meal was on the table in a clean house - do you?" Greg Baer

"The Secret in healing Narcissism is not to heal it at all, but to listen to it. Narcissism is a signal that the soul is not being loved sufficiently. The greater the Narcissism, the less love being given." ~ Thomas Moore, 'Care of the Soul'.

Q. Is it really possible to heal NPD?

A. Anything is possible. You do not have to be a negative statistic on a probablity curve of people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Heal NPD :: Open Topic :: A word on Sam Vaknin forums
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 15:55:59 WedApr 20 2005 )

...I guess I can see your point to some degree - I'm not very comfortable in the victim role myself & can see where it can be a self perpetuating practice. I can also see where things are rarely one-sided & one has to examine oneself in terms of what may have lead to a painful situation... For me, that meant coming to terms with some of my own perhaps narcissistic tendencies - specifically, I think I exhibited elements of "magical thinking" in terms of idealized romantic love. I allowed myself to live in denial about things there were unpleasant & chose to ignore the bitter truth. Basically, I had some misguided notions & immature outlooks that did contribute to my own pain. That much I certainly agree with - but honestly Tony, your post sounds as though you're denying that anyone is really a victim of narcissistic abuse or possibly even that the entire concept of victimhood is a farce. If that understanding is indeed accurate, I would have to disagree - without resorting to the use of intentionally extreme examples such as rape and/or child molestation, in a general sense -people most certainly get victimized by others. Now you can use all kinds of colorful wording to describe the interwoven fabric of a relationship or philosophize away until everything melts into some kind of subjective stale mate... and maybe that works for some people - not for me though. People can & do hurt one another - and those they hurt are victims of that abuse. In fact, from what I've read - many narcissists are victims of early childhood abuse & their condition is closely tied to that reality. Unconditional love? I dunno - I suppose to be fair I should really dig into exactly what you mean by that... generally though, that kind of concept gets a little foggy & ethereal for my reformed tastes... and as I mentioned above, these days I don't live in an idealized fantasy world - although it doesn't surprise me that those who serially abuse others should want to promote the idea of love without conditions - because they cannot or perhaps will not live up to any - and to me, that could denote a desire to evade accountability for one's actions rather than working on one's empathic skills. While I can certainly appreciate a backlash & general desdain to all the hate-mongering & dehumanization that goes on in these forums, denying that abuse has occurred, transferring blame onto the victim, or even discounting the very concept of victimhood itself seems - well, quite frankly - a typically narcissistic response - and perhaps that is a self perpetuating practice as well which can stifle one's healing.

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 16:25:57 WedApr 20 2005 )

From my understanding of abuse, it comes with the desire to cause harm. If someone is stalked, or harassed, or bullied or otherwise targeted that is abuse. Neglecting a child is abuse. These are clear cut cases.

But being in adult relationship means that both parties have choices. If someone cannot give another adult what they desire from that person then adults have the choice to leave the relationship. Blame isn't going to help anyone whether "victim" or NPder in the long run. As sad or frustrating as it may seem each one of us is responsible for our own healing.

Peace

Steely

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 16:27:30 WedApr 20 2005 )

Guest - all your points have been rehashed in this and other communities to the point those of us who are seriously trying to heal are sick to death of them. Narcissistic abuse as you try to paint it neglects, or as some would say makes moot, the reality that NPD is a disorder and people are sick. Abuse suggests intentional efforts to hurt, there simply is no comparrison between the examples you give and what happens with someone who really is NPD. Crying victim is a great game to play for those who are not able to see their own role in relationships, but it serves no purpose in healing.

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 16:35:10 WedApr 20 2005 )

Quote:



But being in adult relationship means that both parties have choices. If someone cannot give another adult what they desire from that person then adults have the choice to leave the relationship. Blame isn't going to help anyone whether "victim" or NPder in the long run. As sad or frustrating as it may seem each one of us is responsible for our own healing.



Amen!

  
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Beloved and che

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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 16:59:43 WedApr 20 2005 )

I would agree & believe I noted in my original post that understanding NPD as a disorder means that you then must accept the NPDer as being much if not even moreso harmed by this condition - and I personally have come to terms with that in my own circumstances. I also agree that it is incumbant upon oneself to ultimately take personal responsibility & leave a bad relationship that cannot be reconciled; however, I'm not entirely sure I agree with the idea that abuse necessarily involve intent from said abuser. Abuse & pain are certainly experienced by the victim regardless of intent or mental state of said abuser. Tragedy strikes people at the hands of non-humans & even machines. To the degree that dehumanization & hate-mongering continues towards NPDers despite this lack of intent is arguably insupportable; but I tend to think(or at least hope) that such is more a reactive & temporary emotional coping mechanism that eventually evolves into something less volatilve & more compassionate; i.e. crying victim is, in my opinion, both legitimate and fuctional in the sense that these victims did indeed suffer greatly - often times after having been fooled by a drastic misrepresentation of what they were getting into - however, and to your point - there must come a time when the crying & blaming stops, to be replaced by awareness, responsibility, and compassion. Thank you for your responses.

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 18:38:57 WedApr 20 2005 )

Stalking, harassing, bullying, and neglect are all commonly associated WITH narcissistic abuse - in addition to pathological lying, serial infidelity, emotional manipulation, gaslighting & ultimately the offhanded discarding that occurs... still further, the victim is often drawn back in w/ false expressions of remorse, promises & declarations of love only to be thrown right back into the same pattern. That's not at all intended to lash out - just relaying points that often come up on these boards. Perhaps my reference to rape and/or child molestation was ill advised - I certainly didn't intend to liken NPDers to those kinds of criminals - rather, I was trying to make a comment on victims or victimhood if you will by using an admitedly extreme example to illustrate the point that a victim need not necessarily be considered co-conspirator to their own abuse. And on that note, I hear a repeated theme that, as adults, we are responsible for our own healing, behavior, and choices in adult relationships - and I couldn't agree more. In fact, most of the people on victim boards have been in bad relationships in the past, sometimes multiple ones and dealt with their demise much according to those exact guidelines - and successfully moved on... so why is it SO different for them when dealing w/ an NPDer? Why can't they just accept that it was a bad relationship that didn't work out - own up to their OWN part in its downfall - take some responsibility for their own happiness and move ON already - just as they've done in the past... personally, I think the reason is that it's simply NOT like anything they had experienced in the past... while deception is common enough in most any relationship, particularly one that ends in failure... in my opinion, it is the sheer starkness between that presented image, beliefs, values, intentions, statements, declarations, feelings & actions during the idealization phase and the contrast one experiences during the devalument phase that most contributes towards these people wallowing in pain & mired in the victim role. Emotionally, it is like being thrust from one end of the spectrum to the opposite in a virtual moment - a veritable Jekyl & Hide scenerio if you will where our paradigms of how the world should work become shattered... It's a traumatizing & shocking experience to be sure but what I think is most important to relay is that it is UNIQUELY so.... and is not quite as comparable to just any run-of-the-mill adult relationship that people need to simply "get over" or "deal with" as such - the fundamental differences therein involving the scope of deception & lack of empathy.

Maybe I'll get flamed here folks but I think I've been respectful thus far. I truly hope you can heal yourselves & only wanted to relay my thoughts as someone who has hopefully progressed beyond those venting boards to a fuller understanding of this disorder - and also wanted to slam Vaknin for being a fraud bastard :wink:

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 18:46:22 WedApr 20 2005 )

Quote:



but I tend to think(or at least hope) that such is more a reactive & temporary emotional coping mechanism that eventually evolves into something less volatilve & more compassionate; i.e. crying victim is, in my opinion, both legitimate and fuctional in the sense that these victims did indeed suffer greatly - often times after having been fooled by a drastic misrepresentation of what they were getting into



I would suggest to you that my wife, in her eyes a "non", withheld as much of her true self from me as I, an NPDer, did from her. We did this because of the dynamics of our personality kind of like TC talks about in the color wheel. The real pain we felt is that we both sought healing old wounds in a new relationship and that is a ticket for disaster on both ends. Sorry, I don't buy the idea that one person is innocently unaware of all the truths of another while they are totally present in the relationship and letting the other see all sides of them. That is the only way you could make any argument for crying victim and at best this is not the case in 99.9% of relationships. I know introspection is hard folks, but give it a shot!

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 20:32:56 WedApr 20 2005 )

Can't get the wretched quote function to work...

I don't think it's fair to suggest that people with NPD set out to "deceive" others in relationships anymore than "nons" set out to deceive. There are real qualities in them which they wish to share but can't because of their defences.

Every relationship has an "idealisation" phase: that's what attraction/falling in love are all about!

The whole "devaluation" concept seems to me to be so much psychobabble - if I've ever "devalued" anyone it was my self because I couldn't deal with the relationship on a truly adult level which left me feeling ashamed so I left - I can't devalue you because I don't choose what YOU feel, just like you can't devalue me because you don't choose what I feel.

NPDers paradigms of how the world should work have already been shattered, and most are either trying to run away from that fact or trying to deal with it.

To suggest that someone is a "victim" still implies intent to my mind, whether conscious or unconscious. Samvak would have the world believe that people with NPD sit at home thinking "Hmnn... whom should I prey on today?" If that were the case I'd argue that a "non' could claim victimhood. But it's NOT the case. A person with NPD is wounded and trying to survive as best s/he can with these wounds. If anything the NPDer could argue that s/he is a "victim" of this illness!

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 11:18:04 ThuApr 21 2005 )

It sounds like our guest is accepting what is written on those other boards about NPD is the gospel truth when in fact nothing is further from the truth. Most of those people have self-diagnosed their partners, friends, coworkers and in the process have completely erased the original intent of what NPD is. As an NPDer myself I used to find their behavior pathetic, now I just see it as their own pathologies which are in severe denial. It should really tell people something that so many people in these other boards are their to bitch about others while we are here working on healing.

  
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Re: A word on Sam Vaknin forums ( 15:08:49 ThuApr 21 2005 )

The issues here have been rehashed here repeatedly now and I believe serve to distract from healing. For this reason this thread will be locked for good at approximately noon PDT today. If anyone feels compelled to add anything more they will have to do so before this time so we can move on.

TC



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Instead of quoting the Budda, be the Budda, be "the awakened one," which is what the word budda means.

Eckhart Tolle, "The Power of Now"

 
 
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