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Oct 8 2005
OK, let's chuck out the math!
OK, we agree on this, except I don't think that when we die anyone turns into God (which is what would be required to know absolute truth).
OK, so you believe that each person's spirit/soul/essence (don't know your word for it) exists in it's own absolute truth?
We'll you've spewed the anti-Christian lines that are almost as pathetic as the Christian lines that they are a reaction to! Glad you got that out of the way.
Can you find a passage in the Bible where Jesus "guilted people"? Jesus said what he said. He did not hunt down sinners and bible-thump to them. Sinners (and I put myself first in line!!!) came to HIM for answers. Jesus showed nothing but compassion as far as recorded history goes (and if somebody knew something contrary they'd be all over Nova and Oprah!) So where does this come from? It comes from reacting to PEOPLE, sinful, Christian people doing the best they can struggling with their own demons and sins. So you condemn God based on this heresay?
You then basically say that you know its horseshit because it makes no sense to you. Whaa? Differential equations makes no sense to me but I doubt that it's horseshit.
Here's something to try. Read the words of Jesus alone and see what you think.
Oct 8 2005
firstly.... if you want a detailed explanation to my spiritual belifs, do a search for the thread "hey TDbear", that covers it preety well.
to take a snipit.... i believe in something thats very similar to the taoist belief; that there is a universal 'force' in the multiverse that flows through everything and everyone.
in relation to your first point. i believe that when a soul reaches the end of its journey, and has learned all of lifes lessons, it accends and either becoms a part of said 'force', or it becomes an Angel whos job is to guide other souls along their journeys (you know guardian angels) and keep the balance in the universe.
as for the second point... not its own truth, the one truth... which is what i speculate(believe) it is... but of course i could be wrong, so i guess i'll just have to wait until i die to find out.
well its not exactly what jesus said, its when you juctsapose "i am the only way into heaven" with the whole "only those who accept christ will go to heaven, the rest go to hell" rhetoric that pisses me off. its using peoples fear to control them, and its wrong!
i've said on a number of occasions that apart from the whole "i am the son of God and i am the only way into heaven"(for obvious reasons *see above*) thing, i really admire a lot of christ's teachings about humility, monogamy, grace, doing unto others as blah blah yourself etc.
Oct 10 2005
So you must earn your way to join the universal 'force', then? If you haven't sufficiently 'learned life's lessons' you are assigned more 'work' (guiding others who are still learning life's lessons)?
So it's all about acheivement then. The universal force sets up some kind of maze and those who successfully navigate through it become god or "join the force". I don't have a lot of flowery language but that is the crux is it not?
So, it's your moral judgement that leads you to believe that no loving god would provide only a single way for humans to join him?
Thank you for your construct of what you believe. To use your construct I will attempt to contrast Christianity with it.
You are right, Jesus was very clear in claiming to be the only way to the father and everlasting life. But this is not some discrimination or bigotry or exclusionary tactic. It could only appear that way to one who is ABLE to 'learn life's lessons' as you put it. I know in my heart that I am not the person I want to be never have been and not improving very much either. I'm not the person I want to be. Even the simpliest mistake I keep making over and over again. Even the simplest self-disipline can be acheived only for a while. I have a very limited ability to "learn life's lessons" and I can only laugh at myself if I had to 'learn life's lessons' sufficiently to impress the universal force that made me!
So, one must realize they are broken for this man Jesus Christ to resonate. Jesus is the only free way to God in ANY world religious system and I NEED the free way.
I don't see how you can admire Christ's teachings if he's a fraud. The guy said he was God after all and the only way. If you don't believe that, Jesus is one sick man and shouldn't that make us skeptical of all his teachings?
Oct 10 2005
no, when you have learned all of lifes lessons, and you have accended, you can choose to 'return to the source'(matrix-ish) or become an angel whose goal it is to help others along the path of life. You dont have to 'earn' anything.
you seem like your trying to compare it to your christian concept of 'heaven' and 'hell', where in order to get to 'heaven' you need to earn your place there by accepting christ, and if you dont, you go to hell. its nothing like that, there is no eternal punishment or reward.
there is no maze, there is just a start and a finish, how you get there is entirely up to you, for some the journey could be short and straight forward, because they learn things easily and so they dont live many 'mortal' lives. For others, the choices they make could lead them down a longer path, and thus they may need to live many 'mortal' lives. Everyone travels the path and everyone finishes.
this force does not have a will, it isn't a 'god'. it is a force, like gravity, friction, etc.
you completely mis-understand me... as you have said, God told man how he can get back into his good books, but man didn't understand and couldn't fulfill all the criteria all at once... so God manifested himself on earth as jesus to give a much simpler way... yes?
ok, thats fine and dandy. BUT
its when a preacher (priest, missionary, evangelist on the street) uses that in conjunction with
"oh and by the way, if you dont do that, your going to hell and are going to be punished in a lake of fire for all eternity"
that pisses me off, because said preacher is preying on peoples fear of death and threatening them with pain in an attempt to control them.
your making it sound as if 'lifes lessons' are some kind of exam that you need to pass. its not. Everyone is able to learn life's lessons.
you learn lifes lessons as you journy along lifes path, and it is the choices to make and your actions that determine whether you learn a lesson the easy way or the hard way. "what goes around, comes around" is one lesson... as you go through life, if you have treated people with respect, curtousy, and benevolence then you will find that when you die, and are reborn, you will be much further along lifes path than if you had been selfish and evil.
if you know in your heart the sort of person you want to be, then it shouldn't be that difficult to change yourself into that person.... nothing is predestined, the future is always in motion. If you keep making the same mistake, then you are trying to change a part of yourself that doesn't need to be changed.
if you say you can only keep up a self-disaplin for a while, then you are not trying hard enough. my instructors at my martial arts class have a list of words and phrases that they will not tolerate in heir dojo... one of which is 'CAN'T'. You 'can't' not do anything if you put your heart and mind to it. if you let yourself believe you 'can't' do something, then it just means you 'wont' do it. (by the way my insrtuctors are both devout christians)
like i said, lifes path isn't an exam; your not doing it to 'impress' anyone or anything, especially not the the force you spawned from. i think i've said before that time is a circle, and that everything repeats itself, well the same holds true for us. unless when you accend, you choose to guide others, and you rejoin the 'force', you will be able to, at any time, restart lifes journy again. you might ask 'Why?', well, haven't you ever wanted to go back and change something in your life that you feel went wrong? or were jsut curious as ot how things would have turned out if you "did catch that bus"? of course i'm not exactly sure, but i think that if and when you restart your journey, all knowledge you gained on your last is fogotten.
first off, to me, jesus was just a man who had reached the last life of his journey and the only lesson he needed to learn was that of sacrifice (and he sure did pick a hell of a way to do it). So to me, everything he said about "being God" was just his way of getting the attention he needed. everything else he said were things that he had learned in preivious lives that had stuck with him.
how does preaching about the sactity of a monogamous, loving relationship, or being a good samaritan, or not judging other qualify a person to be 'a sick man'?
i hope that clears some things up a bit. but i suggest that you dont try and compare my beliefs to christianity in future, as they are quite dissimilar.
Oct 11 2005
Statement #1 and #2 don't flow logically. If the force is like gravity or friction it will act upon all humans the same. How can gravity make me fall at 9.8 m/s2 and someone else have a longer path to fall at say 4m/s2?
Or is it a variable force?
How did you come by this knowledge?
I agree, and if that preacher were responsible for my eternal existance I would be just as pissed as you are. But it's between me and God. It's my life and that preacher has nothing to do with it.
So, help me, give me some examples of who you think would be on a shorter path? A longer path? Since there is no reward with the force, is there any particular advantage to being on the short or long path? When you say re-born do you mean reincarnation?
Great example. You've nailed one of my favorite expressions. "You can do anything you put your mind to". It all depends on what we compromise our minds to do then doesn't it? For example, if you put your mind to it could you kick down a house with one big kick? You would say "c'mon get real" so your mind is pre-adjusted to what you already know is within your grasp. You pre-eliminate what is not within your grasp.
Martial arts is a great example. Have you ever missed a workout? Have you ever missed a meditation? I'd be shocked if you didn't tell me: 'never, ever'.
You won't want to hear this but you're starting to sound like those self-righteous evangelists and preachers you talk about! They've got it all together too, just ask them!
Your point is that since I said all world religions require you to earn your way right with God, you are most definitely NOT DOING THAT. So we have all kinds of unknown motivations:
1. I'm not trying to impress anyone or any force.
2. Given #1 what is a mistake? why would I care about correcting a mistake? The concept has no meaning given #1.
3. Given #1 why would I be curious to see an outcome (to see what affect I had on it).
4. It's gonna be hard to correct your mistake if you have no knowledge from the last round.
5. Everything repeats itself--but that must include the mistakes as well that were 'corrected' in 2.
Let me get this straight. So Jesus is a fraud and mislead vulnerable and gullible people into thinking he's a deity but that's OK because he needed to get attention? For what? So here Jesus was on his last life claiming to be god and you think he wasn't trying to impress anything or anyone?
It doesn't until that person claims to be a god that doesn't exist. Then he's a fraud and an opportunist!
Actually, it clears it up a lot. Thanks.
Oct 11 2005
ok, i apologise, i shouldn't have compared it to 'actual' forces. its difficult to explain because i dont fully understand it myself but as i said it very similar to the tao of the daoist faith, which is believed to be the spiritual name for the electro-magnetic filed that surrounds everything.
Its funny, coz the last christian who asked me that tryied to convince me that it wasn't what i know it was and it was actually a daemon.
it was revealed to me by my guardian angel during a very rough time i was going through a few years ago.
i was very depressed and couldn't see a ay through and so i did what most confused people do, i opened my heart to wat ever was willing to take it... its funny because i was advised to do it by my ex (whos an evangelist), though i think hes motives behind it was to try and convert me, but it had a reverse effect because it wasn't 'God' who answered me.
well i gave you the only example i can think of because i dont know what all of lifes lessons are.
when i said no 'reward' i was refering to the kind that your faith talks about... you know, eternal 'pleasure' or 'pain'. there is a reward, complete knowledge and truth of everything. ergo, i'd say the main advantages come from taking the shorter path.
Yes, reencarnation is EXACTLY what i mean, how else would you be able to learn all of lifes lessons (coz its virtualy impossible to do so in one lifetime)
well, my shihan can shatter twelve 4" thick oak planks, and chip the plaster off of the wall they were braced against with one mai giri(front kick)
so i'd say with a lot of mental conditioning and physical training, there isn't much you couldn't 'compromise' in your mind that you can do.
why would you be shocked? Of course there have been time when i have been un able to attend class for various reasons; ill health, financial difficulty, injury etc.
actually, i'm glad you did say it because it helps me get a foot back on the ground. What i mean is i dont understand a lot about the things that were revealed to me and that i haven't had 'everything' revealed to me. I've also stated in other threads that my beliefs are subject to change because of that. i have a very vivid imagination and it sometimes leads me o fill in the blanks, so i apologise if i sound like those people who seem to have an answer for everything.
again, i'm not always fully complete in my meaning, and often forget important details so forgive me. This case being that your not trying to impress anyone, your doing it for yourself... its your journey and yours alone so if you think your trying to impress someone, its yourself.
well, mistake in life is just a choice that you have made that you regret. Me, i dont regret any choices i have made in my life so far (i'm only 19 so i've still got plenty of time to make more hehe) because they are what have shaped my life into what it is now, and will continue to do so.
well, why wouldn't you be curious even if you weren't trying to impress someone?
you make a good point with the last two, so i guess my understanding about that happens with rebirth.
Well i know history tends to repeat itself unless people choose 'the other option', so i guess the same can be said about 'mistakes' in life.
Time is a circle. There was no beginning and there is no end.
well, by claiming that and 'misleading' people, he might have lead them to learn the lesson of naivety the hard way.
i apologise, i didn't mean to say he was trying to get attention. He probably actually believed he was this diety that so many people worshipped.
Oct 12 2005
I'm curious as to why you say it's "very similar" to tao. Why don't you simply say you are a daoist? Or do you maintain that you came by your vision independently and it's only a coincidence that they are 'very similar'? Just curious.
First off, I doubt it was a demon, that last thing a demon would want is you thinking spiritually at all. How can you be sure it wasn't God? Your ex-wife sounds very wise to me. Sounds like she did not bible-thump, only asked you to open your mind which you did. People don't convert people. God converts people and she obviously recognized that.
So there is indeed something to be earned by going the shorter path and that is absolute truth. And would not knowledge of absolute truth bring perfect peace, tranquility and, yes, pleasure? In other words, there is a REASON to strive for all the good things we strive for, no?
OK, just clearing that up. You stated earlier that someone would choose to be re-born. Why would they do that? If you know absolute truth then you've acheived all you can achieve, why go back. You might say "to help others". But here you have no motivation. First, you are taking yourself out of the godly realm to be placed back into the moshpit called earth which is clearly not in your best interest. What about others? , Yet you previously stated there is no reward or punishment to being on a longer path so, by definition, my being re-born onto earth to "help" others is of no help at all. Something has got to give logically.
Okay, except shatter 24 or 36 or 48 oak planks, or to knock the entire wall down. See what I mean? Yes, what he can do is amazing and something that I can't do but does that mean there are no limits to his capabilities? Does that mean he could never confidently attempt to do something and, in fact, not be able to do it? No.
Then your self-disipline is lacking, no? The best thing for your body is to meditate and workout. If you are injured you exercise through the pain. Financial difficulty should not be a problem in the first place because a self-disiplined person will always have an income. A self-disiplined person does not get sick either. I'm not picking on you here. I would be the same. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that the minute we say we have "achieved it all" we delude ourselves into a self-righteousness that will destroy our spirituality because we become 'god'.
The fact that you say your beliefs are 'subject to change' demonstrates that you're not at the end of your spiritual journey.
I apologize, you were giving me a spiritual view and I think it is very interesting, no reason to subject it to 20 questions!
You are absolutely right. A good definition of a 'mistake' is making a choice that you regret. We regret a choice if we make a "wrong" choice. The wrong comes from a standard whether that standard comes from God's writing on our heart, from Bible (as I would say), or from evolution, for culture, or politics (as you might say). For this point, where the standard came from is irrelevant.
You are 19 and I'm 44. I remember being 19 and I remember all the mistakes I made (and still make). Probably the best and worst thing (at the same time) about growing older is 'mistakes'. It's easier to recognize your own, it's easier to recognize when someone else is making them but it's more painful to contemplate the sadness and damage done by them.
You are right, but think about it. The motive of curiousity is selfishness. I want to know something that I don't need to know in the hopes that the outcome brings me glory. That glory can come in two ways, either from an elevation of my name or a pushing down of someone else's.
I agree with you that history tends to repeat itself. I think it's more a matter than every human has the same flaws/virtues. Therefore, people think and therefore act alike over time.
I would say time is a concept.
LOL! That's looking hard to find the silver lining. You have a soft spot for this Jesus character!
Oct 12 2005
i say its very similar because i do not fully understand it myself, and so my human mind seems to have a need to compare it to something familier to as to 'fill in the gaps' as it were. yes i still maintain that i came by my vision independantly because i had my vision years before i even knew what daoism is. i'm not a daoist, because there are things in daoism that dont make sense to me.
i know it wasn't a daemon, because daemons have no interested in our 'realm' directly, they are only concerned with disrupting the eatheral world (or spirit world), which affects ours.
i'll answer that question with another... why would God appear to me in a vsion and tell me that he didn't exist and that when i die, i will be reborn to continue my journey?
why did you refer to my ex as
1) my wife
2) a woman
when you know i'm gay and always have been? i apologise for my misspelling of "his" (i typed 'hes' by accident) if that is why.
Actually i do believe conversion was his motive because his exact words were "why dont you sit down somewhere where you feel most at peace and poen your heart to God".
i know God is the one who converts people, because i dont believe that ANYONE with a sane mind would be convinced by some of the rheteric that many preachers spew.
well, you earn the same thing if your choices take you a longer path, its just more beneficial for someone to take the shorter path if the destination is their motivation. for me, the promise of absolute knowledge is less of a priority to me than the journey itself, to me, its not getting there thats important, its how i get there and the experiences along the way.
why would i choose to start it all over again, knowing that i would jsut end up at the same finish? well, having absolute knowledge would be great... for a while, but i think i would get pretty bored of it.
this is a bit off-topic,but have you ever watched star trek?(if answer if yes, ignore this next bit) the next generation has a species claled the Q who are basically the angels that i spoke of earlier (except these ones can actually manipulate our realm). well in one episode, it shows a Q who is so fed up of immortality and having absolute knowledge, that all he wants to do is die, simply because he has never experienced it.
if you get where i'm coming from, its very similar. yes having all knowledge i would already know EVERY path i could have possible traveled, but knowing it isn't the same as experiencing it is it.
who says i would star my journey over again on earth? in fact, who says that while travelling on my journey, i will only ever be reencarnated as a human on earth? Our universe is emmence, and so in-comprehencibly vast, that its very hard to believe that our own (very small) planet is the only one that can (and does) sustain intelligent life, whether it evolved or God created it.
of course there are limits to his capabilities, but there are almost no limits to his potential as a human... sure he may never be able to levitate a book using his mind to manipulate the magnetic field around it and the surface its on, but that doesn't mean that someone in say a few thousand years time might not, we are evolving and becoming smarter, and using more and more of our brains than before.
and it is a very good point. no-one can say they have achieved it all, because no-one can achieve it all... its the same with the word "can't", its all psychologial. cant doesn't mean, un able, its an excuse for 'wont', and that leads to apathy and laziness, just as over-confidence leads to arogance.
i'm not entirely sure what you meant by that but...
Exactly, i would be very surprised if i was.
i'm afraid i dont agree, i see curiosity as its own motive. i can see where the selfishness comes in, as a possible ulterior motive, but curiosity is also part of what makes us human... if it wasn't, there wouldn't be science, or even religion, because we wouldn't even care what happens when we die, or where we came from, or even where we are going.
i think i agree that time is more of a concept than anything else, and its our own different beliefs that dictate what our own concept of time is... yours is linear "in the beginning there was God" and "at the end of time there will come a day of judgement", where as mine is more circular, a renewing system like the water cycle(clouds, rain, sea, clouds and so on)
i do have a soft spot for the character of jesus, because he is portrayed as being the kind of person we should all aspire to be.
Oct 13 2005
You've said you are 19 years old. Do you believe this vision that you've had is your last? Throughout the Bible one can find God's direct word (dreams, burning bush, etc.) being misunderstood or 'unclear' to those it's intended for. Doesn't surprise me at all.
My apologies! When you said "ex" that's the expression we use for "ex-wife or ex-husband. I failed to catch on that "ex" simply meant "ex-relationship". You are correct I was making incorrect assumptions.
You've nailed it 100%. Your ex was spot on as well. One bible verse that sums it all up "Be still and know that I am God". The emphasis is never on the "be still" part but it's important.
You know my stance on bible-thumping preachers. The catholics decided a priest needed to be between you and God (as in the OT). But Jesus changed that. There is no one between you and God. Preachers are necessary for those who believe (such as me) for day-to-day operations. I look at my preacher like I would any other professional like doctor or a lawyer. I can also say the vast majority of preachers work in this manner.
I'll give you an interesting anecdote you can share with your friends. As I eluded to earlier, I write software that assists auditors in the regulation of a certain industry which accepts deposits from the public. In the last three cases in our state (over last 24 months or so) where fraud has been committed with public deposits, it has been fundamentalist Christian bible-thumpers who were responsible. That is the honest truth!
You really need to look hard what what your are saying here. You said the "if the desination is their motivation" but it can't be! Remember, if there is no reward there, by definition, can't be a motivation to get there.
I would ask for more clarification here. Absolute knowledge is not as important as the journey? Whaa? Knowledge is what everyone is striving for. Knowledge to make money, knowledge to help people, knowledge to convince voters, etc.. What possible motivation would anyone have to deny themselves not just knowledge but absolute knowledge! Every single day people are out there working themselves silly in pursuit of knowledge.
I watched the REAL star trek circa 1970s not the garbage that passes for it now. But you point out a good concept. How is it possible? Easy because the writers of the show have Q with "absolute knowledge" but somehow we are expected to believe that Q's only interest, or manifestation, or means of expression is thru these lowly lifeforms.
So when writing the show the purpose of Q is to enhance the adventure of the lower life forms. To do justice to "absolute knowledge", the show would have to have been written from the perspective of the one with the absolute knowledge (which is, of course, impossible).
You see the show portrayed Q getting "bored" with absolute knowledge because he was 'created' by humans for humans with all the contraints of the human creative mind in place. See what I mean?
You said it best it's "hard to believe". In fact, it's no accident the universe is so "in-comprehencibly vast". It's the one thing that can lead the most jaded scientist to question his science. He has no tools to even measure such an animal.
My personal feeling is that we are indeed the only life form in the universe. It's a demonstration of how much God loves us. What could go farther to convince you that God knows and loves you than to put you and me on a tiny outpost in the vastness that is God? Quite a powerful picture don't you agree?
Limits to his capabilities but ALMOST no limits to his potential as a human? Whaaa? First of all, now you've introduced the "almost", a nice qualifier added.
Now you seem to be saying well as a species if everyone keeps trying harder we'll eventually get from a limited stated (which you admit we are in now) to some sort of unlimited state in the future?
My opinion is "no, not gonna happen". We are flawed people incapable of doing what we want to do at all times. Some are more capable than others for sure and perhaps we're becoming slightly more capable as a society in general. But the fact still stands. ALL of us are incapable of doing what we want to do at all times.
I agree 100%
But what makes us curious? The hunt for knowledge of course. Knowledge brings our name glory. The more I know the more glorious I am.
You acknowledge this motive and describe it as "ulterior". I would flip that around and say bringing glory to myself is the MAIN motivation. It's only that much better if I can help someone else in the process. Because if I am able to help someone else in the process guess what happens? I get even more glory heaped upon my name!
I agree but I would add that from my perspective God created time and time IS something absolutely. You or I may have differing perceptions of the concept.
Do you ever wonder why you overlook the fact that Jesus was a fraud and a liar (from the non-believer's perspective of course)?
Oct 13 2005
no i dont believe that that vision wwas my last, in fact i believe it was my first. i have a guardian angel afterall, who watches over me and (tries its best) to guide me down the quicker path (but of course, its my path, and like a parent after the age of 18, they can only give advice).
i think it would be incredibly difficult to misunderstand when an angel tells you that there is no almighty God and that i am on a spiritual journey and could live many lives.
thats quite funny because over here we always actually say "ex-wife/husband" when we're refering to them, other wise we just say 'ex'. its not really an ex relationship because he and i are still good friends. but i know what you meant.
well, i was still, but the thing that i saw sure didn't tell me it was God.
well, as you said, absolute knowledge is as good a reward as any, so for some people (namely the ones you say work them selves silly everyday) absolute knowledge is the destination, so getting there is their motivation.
the second point is pretty simple.
say you live in LA, and you decide that you and your family are going on a road trip to orlando in florida. you know what your destination is, so getting there is half the adventure. i know that once i reach the end of my journey, i will attain absolute knowledge, so i'm focussing on the journey itself, and the things i experience along the way.
i never thought of that, but still, basing it on the constraints of the human mind, i'd say it would get extremely boring, but as you say, i dont have absolute knowledge, so i couldn't possibly say it i would ever get bored of it.
why do you disagree?
isn't that a lot like the quote form constentine "there is a difference between KNOWING God exists and BELIEVING God exists"
just like ther is the difference between riding a rollercoaster and riding a simulator of a rollercoaster.
its the same thing surely.
ok, tell me something, what would you personal feeling be if(or when) we do encounter another intelligent civillisation?
or , to take it even further, what if said civilisation has a similar, if not idential religion to christianity?
just talking hypathetically.
no, we are advancing from A to B naturally, its jsut the people who don't do things that expands themselves that notices the changes in those who do.
knowledge only brings glory to your name if glory is what you seek from knowledge.
if the search for glory is Ones MAIN motive, then One is indeed a selfish person. Again, if Ones knowledge can help others, but One only sees that as a way of claiming more glory, then One is selfish.
personally, if my knowledge can help others i will do it for the sake for helping others, i would expect, nor seek any glory or recognition for it. If other glorify my name because of what i can do, then so be it, but i wont care.
God created Time, but creation is an event in time.
intreguing stuff :P
no i have never wondered why, perhaps because no-one has ever asked me that question.
thanks for making me wonder hehe. I dont know, i just do, at a guess, it could be that i just take everything with a pinch of salt, both the inspiring things a person does/says, and the tad looney.
Oct 14 2005
If you are without error, I would agree. Are you without error? To that end, why did you say that your guardian angel "tries its best" to guide you. Inherent in that statement is that you make mistakes, you veer off the shortest (implicitly: best) path. So if you make mistakes under the guidance of your guardian angel, why is it so "incredibly difficult" to misunderstand what you are being told via revelation?
Of course the journey is part it. One can easily argue that the creation of time itself is God's design for that notion. Also, the fact that God involves humans to be part of his overall plan of saving the world. This too is recognition that the journey is significant. So I don't dispute that a journey is important but it can not compare to being in the presence of absolute truth. The reason we know this is because we know how miserable it is stuck in a state of "relative truth" or said another way where there "is no truth". That describes our world today. OJ Simpson's verdict is one thing. Looking at the record of Tony Blair or Geo Bush and having some people say "he's great" and others say "he's bad". That proves it. Truth is in the eye of the beholder on this earth and that leaves to huge problems.
No because experience is a substitute for absolute knowledge, isn't it? Try to get your arms around how vast the concept of "absolute truth" is. "Experiencing" things becomes irrelevant to the one who knows absolute truth.
Further, if you are in the presence of absolute truth there can be no "time". Because time is nothing more than revealing the truth in procession. If you already possess absolute truth the concept of "experience" delivered by "time" on a "journey" is totally irrelevant. Do you see what I mean?
Obviously, my gut-feeling would be wrong then. Regardless, I think it is safe to say that we're alone in a very, very, very large area of space.
I still am not sure you get what I'm saying. I'm saying we'll never get to the mathematical number "infinity" and you are saying. Yes we will, let's start counting: 1,2,3,4,5,... See what I'm saying? We're not going to get there. Trying doesn't matter. How hard we work doesn't matter. How self-disiplined we are won't matter. We can not count to infinity.
Newsflash. All people are selfish. People do what appear to be unselfish acts all around us. And these are great but they are superficial ACTS of unselfishness.
If I look at the core of my being and am honest I can clearly see that I put my interests above others every time. Yet, almost all people deny this violently. I know people who won't even watch a TV show that someone else picks out and claim not to be selfish! I'm NOT selfish! It's that other guy! Total delusion.
The one people throw at me is a firefighter to dies trying to save a child in a house fire. How can this guy be selfish?
I say easy. 1) The firefighter does not believe he will die when he enters the house 2) He realizes the glory that will accrue to him if he does it and 3) If the child is saved so much the better, in that order.
Think about it. If the firefighter KNEW he would die, he would not go. Now I don't mean a screaming newsreporter saying "He risked certain death by going inside". I mean the internal experience and expertise of the firefighter calculating that he will DIE if he goes in. The firefighter entering believes he will make it out with the glory and the kid. Your thoughts?
Yes, well, thanks to our great thoughts here it is good stuff. Based on our earlier discussion, could we not call creation simply one of God's "truths" (of the absolute variety) and the "time" was creation? I've never thought of it that way. Absolute truth must precede time by definition. Yet when we evaluate God we are always putting "time" in the absolute truth position and therefore God has to be explained under the umbrella of time.
I think this is a very interesting question.
Oct 14 2005
1. no i'm not without error
2. easy to explain, its called free will. its my path, and only i can walk it, but the angel acts like jimeny criket, advising me about what path it thinks i should take.
3. again, a mistake is just a choice we regret making, i dont regret any choices i have made so far.
its so difficult because what was revealed to me was what it was, it wasn't stated in the form of a riddle or a puzzle, it was clear statments. no reading between the lies or anything.
and i think its safe to say we aren't
ok i understand that. i'm just saying that we are becoming more than we are now.
yes i agree that that firefighter is selfish, but what about the guy sat next to him that also KNOWS that there is a 100% chance that he will die but knows that ther is a 60% chance that the girl will survive stands up and does go in?
Oct 17 2005
You would say intelligent life on 17,000 km globe in a desolate solar system that's 3.6 billion km wide means that we're not very very isolated? I'd hate to see what you think is "isolated"?!
But how is this "better and better" model a substitute for possessing absolute knowledge? It's not. Getting "better and better" can not improve our spiritual condition.
I agree the "guy next to him" would be performing a selfless act. However, my guess is that he doesn't exist. Every firefighter enters a very dangerous situation thinking THEY will beat the odds and survive. If they don't think they will survive then the situation is characterized as "too dangerous" or sometimes referred to as "suicidal situation" and is justified in that way.
Again, I'm not condemning anyone. I would be no different. All humans are the same. Some people have a higher risk threshold than others, to be sure. Some are braver than others to be sure but all calculate that they will survive when they take the risk.
Oct 17 2005
you said you are sure we are alone. being alone and being isolated have different meanings.
to be alone, means that you are the ONLY thing in a space
to be isolated means that you are cut off from OTHER things in the same (or adjasent) space.
you went off on an irrelevant tangent.
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